The downing of Speicher F/A-18: Iraqi perspective Jan 1991

Cold war, Korea, Vietnam, and Desert Storm - up to and including for example the A-10, F-15, Mirage 200, MiG-29, and F-18.
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oldiaf

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Unread post03 Sep 2015, 11:04

tomcooper wrote:
oldiaf wrote:As I said pilot Name was Hasan and he was KIA .... he was not mentioned because the Iraqi AF didn't know who shoot him down and there was a fear that this was a fratricide kill by the Air defenses

OK, 'Hassan and I'll get no more'... as so often. :roll:

But, sorry, the rest of explanation is not really useful: if the 2nd SOC IrAF lists its scrambles from the night of 17 January 1991, and this contains only scrambles by Mirages, MiG-29s and MiG-25s... then why this MiG-23ML is not listed?

Fates of the aircraft in question are no reason: several of Mirages and MiG-29s were shot down too, but are listed. Why not that MiG-23ML?

There was a fear the Air defense would be blamed for downing it since no mention for the cause who shoot it down .. So they reported it to be destroyed on the ground before scrambling and the pilot killed inside it ..
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Unread post03 Sep 2015, 11:20

tomcooper wrote:
oldiaf wrote:As I said pilot Name was Hasan and he was KIA .... he was not mentioned because the Iraqi AF didn't know who shoot him down and there was a fear that this was a fratricide kill by the Air defenses

OK, 'Hassan and I'll get no more'... as so often. :roll:

But, sorry, the rest of explanation is not really useful: if the 2nd SOC IrAF lists its scrambles from the night of 17 January 1991, and this contains only scrambles by Mirages, MiG-29s and MiG-25s... then why this MiG-23ML is not listed?

Fates of the aircraft in question are no reason: several of Mirages and MiG-29s were shot down too, but are listed. Why not that MiG-23ML?

The only Mirage I know about that was downed was that of Lt. Col. Mutlag Squadron 89 ... Plus 2 MiG-29s from 39 squadron both Pilots KIA ... There were also 2 MiG-21 from 47 squadron but this happened in the afternoon and both pilots also KIA.
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Unread post03 Sep 2015, 16:45

tomcooper wrote:Not necessary: it's just you who is too stupid to admit that you have no trace of clue about military flying - although claiming to be a 'former Mirage pilot'.

Keep going with your stupidity here this all what we need to prove to the people who is the Clown TomCooper and his ignorance of Aviation (your nonsense such Capt. Zuhair turn to the south) while he was heading to south shows your low level of your intelligence, second your industry of fabrication without any knowledge.
tomcooper wrote:Plus, you're simply too clueless about this engagement (Anderson vs Dawoud) but to understand what happened. That's why you're not going to get any additional food for your fabrications in response.

This is totally apply on you and the reasons above prove my words.

tomcooper wrote:On the contrary: you remind me of that 'serious historian' from Libya. Last year he's got an interview with Belkacem al-Zintani. For you and your 'Americans' here al-Zintani is not going to ring any bells. For Libyans, he's a hero who 'shot down' a USN's F-14 on 19 August 1981.

Problem was: that clown had to find some USN F-14 pilot al-Zintani 'must have killed'. So, he picked Henry Kleeman (leader of the USN's section that shot down the two Libyan Sukhois, indeed, the gent that shot down the Libyan wingman) - because Kleeman was killed in a landing accident with an F/A-18, in 1986.

Why should he care about F-14 being a two-seater or Dave Venlet (Kleeman's RIO) reaching the rank of Admiral...?

...and now he's argumenting that the USN has fabricated Kleeman's death certificate...

Be man and go wort this on Libyan forums don't talk behind their back, no need to read your nonsense, if there is something worthy to remember, first remind yourself of your reliability and correct your behaviors and then back to wrote.

tomcooper wrote:Ah yes, and regarding this:
One more thing, we have discussed this issue before on subject called (the first kill of the Gulf War) and we reach point (we and Americans) respect for each other's point of view, now what is your problem? and why do you bother your self here on this subject? If the Americans said this kill was at 0600 no problem, we and they are understand each other (what do you want here?)
Am I disturbing you, Mr. Miserable Liar?

I meant the subject related between us and U.S so why put your nose here?
Otherwise you make me favor by joying this valuable forum and i love to keep you here to show up your fabrication and low knowledge.

tomcooper wrote:You have no clue what are you talking about: you have some data which you do not even understand, even less so do you know how to use what you've got. And the 'Americans' you're talking with here have no clue what are you talking about - because they never studied anything of this closely enough.

Oh you just told me..
My fellow Americans here have no clue what I am talking about because they never studied anything of this closely enough!
The best answer of this part this video below:


tomcooper wrote:Please, be my guests and remain in agreement :D

No.. on my pocket please you're my guests here :cheers:
So.. where we were? keep telling me more about your nonsense.. you have drawing route on 1/1000000 map and F-5 shot down MIG-25, and F-14 down a three MIGs in one missile.. It's look likes heavy weed !

tomcooper wrote:Hey clown: is 'Tehran' paying me to write a history of Arab air forces at wars with Israel, 1955-1973, too...?

Naah.. you didn't appear on Iranian Islamic revolutionary guards television channel glorifies their fake heroism, and fighting for their empty claims.

tomcooper wrote:Finally, regarding your question about what am I doing here?

That's your own fault.

Namely, if you wouldn't have started bullshitting lies about my person, my integrity and my work, I would've never posted a single word here - nor care to reveal you for what you are: a clown with illusion of grandeur.

And if you wouldn't have started bullshitting lies about our air force history i would've never posted a single word here about you ok?
Since the discussion between you and me on Interview: Major General ‘Alwan Hassoun ‘Alwan al-Abousi i said to you Tom let me start a new page with you and correct all that information you have (it was a great chance to you) but you totally messed up that chance and you write what you wrote, believe or not and accept this from me or disagree with me, back with your bad words such liar or Clown..etc it's all up to you and at the end will represent your behavior only not me. but you know or didn't know most the history of Iraqi air force since 1931 till April 9-2003 in my hands and in particular to the Mirage and Su-22 and MIG-25s. Say whatever you want, you are free, but you have to remember you lost your best source hayder and some others on iraqimilitary.org because you did not accept criticism or trying in various formats to impose your point of view and the other are wrongs. At the end people fed up of you..
There is no one make no mistake, but the real mistake if you didn't correct it back and insists it's right, i did some mistake here in particular to the Mirage while it's my part my squadrons my plane, but no one know everything and when i did a mistake i come back to say (gentleman's it was my fault in that subject and you are right and I'm wrong..etc).
We have losses during Iraq-Iran war but not the way you show it up, and you relied on the one side in your publishing and that's why you are facing great discontent from people.

tomcooper wrote:I respect the IrAF more than you ever can imagine - that's why CONTRARY TO YOU I'm NOT publishing fabrications about it.

If you have a great respect to us then how can i interpret your harsh words to me?
And your comment on this subject Mirage F.1EQ Service with Iraqi AF episode 5

tomcooper wrote:Yup, and what you - exactly like majority of Iraqi fighter-bomber pilots, plus their superiors that were planning these missions - do not understand is: hitting all the piping and jetties etc. was all for nothing.
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Unread post03 Sep 2015, 17:11

oldiaf wrote:The only Mirage I know about that was downed was that of Lt. Col. Mutlag Squadron 89 ... Plus 2 MiG-29s from 39 squadron both Pilots KIA ... There were also 2 MiG-21 from 47 squadron but this happened in the afternoon and both pilots also KIA.

Yes, that part is clear. What I'm wondering about is how a MiG-23ML can get scrambled, operate within the area of responsbility of the 2nd SOC, and then is not mentioned with a single word in a report supposed to cite precisely ALL operations launched by the aircraft under the control of the 2nd SOC?

(Not to talk about the issue of that report citing entirely different timings of scrambles in question, than timings mentioned by different of pilots that flew actual sorties...)

Look, in the military there are strict rules. There is a chain of command and a chain of responsibilities (some call this 'discipline'). People who lie are breaking rules, compromising this chain, and (usually) get punished for that.

This is especially the case when one is writing a report about such things like combat operations. Why? Because if some commander there is responsible for (for example) 12 aircraft and 12 pilots, and authorized to get funding to support these 12 aircraft and 12 pilots, but loses one aircraft and one pilot (just another example), but does not report about such a loss, he's unprofessional, he's compromising his command and the chain of command. He's stealing from the service too. All of that is punishable.

Reason: people who lie cannot be depended upon.

Means: when some officer with such a responsibility like the CO 2nd SOC writes a report, this oughts to be 100% correct, or he's _lying_ and is going to get punished for that.

Means: if there was a 2nd SOC IrAF, and its CO is submitting a report about his operations, and then there is a section of that report containing the number of aircraft SCRAMBLED by squadrons under its control, then his report has to include a list of 100% of aircraft SCRAMBLED by those units. Period.

Reason: these aircraft have spent fuel, weapons, spares etc. - plenty of stuff that costs money. The CO 2nd SOC is paid to do his job ('command'), his offices, pilots and other ranks are paid for to do their jobs ('fight'). And, after all, purpose of the very existence of the entire 2nd SOC IrAF was to 'fight wars', 'provide air defence of homeland'. So, if this homeland is hit and heavily bombed, but the 2nd SOC IrAF is doing nothing to prevent that, its CO must explain why not (i.e. why are his aircraft not flying).

Correspondingly, he has to cite what were his units doing that night, and then it's only of his advantage to cite ALL the aircraft that were scrambled, 100%.

In such case, he's surely not the least curious to start omitting aircraft that were lost - no matter to what reason - from a list citing aircraft that were SCRAMBLED: his report has to include 100% of aircraft SCRAMBLED. Period.

What happened to the aircraft in question (perhaps also explanations why) is then discussed in a separate section of that report.

That's how a professional military report is filled. Of course, there are military services around the world that have officers who are not as professional; where the entire system is corrupt to a degree that the official documentation is doctored, losses omitted (or added) as necessary etc.

For example, last year several divisions of the Iraqi Army disintegrated precisely because their top commanders were pocketing money they were authorized to use for feeding and paying their troops. With other words: commanders in question were lying - to their superiors and to their troops. The chain of command was corrupted from within.

Now, would you like to say that the 'old IrAF' was as unprofessional military force, as full of irresponssible and unprofessional commanders that these were doctoring data in their reports? That the CO 2nd SOC IrAF was as unprofessional as to omit an entire aircraft (it's not like a MiG-23ML is 'peanuts') SCRAMBLED and then LOST (no matter the reason) from his report?

Namely, your answer indicates this was the case. I.e. the CO 2nd SOC was affraid he might get punished because there was a chance of one of his fighters being shot down by own ground defences...

Sorry if I'm not really buying this...
Last edited by tomcooper on 03 Sep 2015, 17:12, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread post03 Sep 2015, 17:12

markjp wrote:For Old Iraqi air force, some people always thinks they are right and you try to correct them you became their enemy instead you have to get them to feel like you are on their side and that your ideas and their ideas are the same, So don't wear yourself out.
Salute.

Much appreciate your participation.
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Unread post03 Sep 2015, 17:14

And for the Clown:
old.iraqi.air.force wrote:Since the discussion between you and me on Interview: Major General ‘Alwan Hassoun ‘Alwan al-Abousi ...

Should you ever happen to manage activating more than 1 brain cell, go and read Arab MiGs Volume 5 & 6: perhaps you might find out why such clowns like you are surplus. :D
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Unread post03 Sep 2015, 17:24

If the one who made the report just changed a single event ( the aircraft was destroyed on the ground fully loaded instead of immediately downed after take off ... Then he would have been protecting his own ground crews ) .. Remember Iraqi sociery is tribal one and the tribe of the fallen Pilot would had seeked retribution from the ground crews ( of the air defense ) if a simple rumor spread out that their son was killed ( mistakenly ) by his fellow mates ... You need to understand the society of Iraq to know this ....
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Unread post03 Sep 2015, 20:58

I know how the society is organized, and also that Saddam's idiocies (and those of his crownies) have repeatedly compromised... indeed corrupted the chain of command.

But - and while I've suspected since long that much of IrAF documentation is doctored (take documents about MiG-25 losses from war with Iran as example) - this is still shocking for me.
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Unread post04 Sep 2015, 15:14

May I ask for something like a drawing or diagram of this AA encounter as reading the pilot's explanations an all I cannot figure it out how it happened at all... Thanks in advance if someone would do it...
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Unread post04 Sep 2015, 21:08

piston wrote:May I ask for something like a drawing or diagram of this AA encounter as reading the pilot's explanations an all I cannot figure it out how it happened at all... Thanks in advance if someone would do it...

I have a diagram that would make everything crystal clear - based not only on Dawoud's, but also official documentation, maps used during that mission, plus recollections from about a dozen of USN pilots/crewmembers.

But sorry: in no way am I going to post it here - and feed a miserable liar (or characters 'believing' him).
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Unread post05 Sep 2015, 06:30

tomcooper wrote:But sorry: in no way am I going to post it here - and feed a miserable liar (or characters 'believing' him).


????
Do you believe that this forum is visited only by "a miserable liar (or characters 'believing' him)"??
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Unread post05 Sep 2015, 06:41

Not much to see except the two...

Anyway: take some map of Iraq west/south-west of Baghdad.

Draw a line along a course 260° from Tammuz to 42° E - and you've got Dawoud's initial course.

Then draw a line along a course of 15° in direction of Ayn Zazu (a town west of Ramadi) - and you've got initial course of F/A-18s.

Keep in mind aircraft separation in standard USN formations, that Anderson was on the left (western) side of Sunliners' wall, and Speicher on its right (eastern) end, while the first four A-6Es were further south/south-west, in a trail with 4-5 miles separation between single aircraft.

...and everything should be 'crystal clear'.
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Unread post05 Sep 2015, 08:07

That said, when I'm cross-checking my diagram with Dawoud's account posted above, there are further discrepancies between Dawoud's account and other known data:

- 1.) In this account he says he was assigned to No. 96 Squadron and based at al-Qaddisya AB ('al-Assad' for Westerners). So far, all the other accounts - foremost: ALL of available IrAF documentation - were placing No. 96 Sqn at Tammuz AB and No. 97 at al-Qaddisya AB.

So, at the first look, this is 'not making sense'.

- 2.) If timings in this account would be correct, they are giving him only 9 minutes from take-off at Tammuz to climb to 7,000m, fly 180km, engage Anderson, do a complete circle with him, then roll out east and shoot down Speicher. IMHO, not nearly enough - even in MiG-25 going supersonic all the time.

But... if he scrambled from al-Qaddisya, then 'everything fits', because of a) the 'warm up time' his Sherch radar needed (in turn making a scramble at 03.38-03.41 more believeable), b) his engagement with Anderson (which took place only about 90km south of Qadissya AB), and c) his description of finding his base by using Haditha train station.

Though, in such case he didn't follow the course of 260° after taking off...

- 3.) His citing of the MiG-29 that took off '6-10 minutes after' remains under a big question mark. If this was Qudair Hijab from No. 6 Squadron (MiG-29 that engaged the B-52 over Talha FOL), he must've taken-off at least 10 minutes earlier than Dawoud, and the reason why the GCI didn't permit Dawoud to open fire at the lead A-6E was that Hijab was returning from Talha towards north.

So, was Dawoud really based at al-Qaddisya, or at Tammouz AB - as everybody else says he was? Or did he scramble from Tammouz but landed at al-Qaddisya (because Tammouz was under attack by the USN strike package he intercepted, for example)?
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Unread post05 Sep 2015, 11:40

OK, as more and more questions appeared, I lost the track completely....

Let's say I knew that F-18 was shot head on, 'till now.... :doh:
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Unread post05 Sep 2015, 12:57

He scrambled from Al-Qadisiya ....thats for certain ..... And with respect check your info regarding home base of 96 & 97 squadrons :
96 was in Al-Qadisiya and 97 was in Tammuz... Squadron 96 was equipped with the more capable MiG-25PD while Squadron 97 was equipped with MiG-25PDS. ....... Even with earlier sources that put Dawood with fictional squadron 84 !!! They said he scrambled from Al-Qadisiya.
And one other thing - if the MiG-29 that was crossing path with Dawood was that of khidr Ahjeb then why the GCI warned him about a single MiG-29 while in fact Khidr Ahjed was not alone and had a wingman in another MiG-29 Pilot name Haitham Mizher.
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