The downing of Speicher F/A-18: Iraqi perspective Jan 1991

Cold war, Korea, Vietnam, and Desert Storm - up to and including for example the A-10, F-15, Mirage 200, MiG-29, and F-18.
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oldiaf

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Unread post02 Sep 2015, 04:20

tomcooper wrote:
oldiaf wrote:Thats will make the Formation consisting of 10 F/A-18C + 8 A-6E + 4 F-14A+ + 3 EA-6B = 25

Yes, but Rampages didn't get involved - just like F-14As from VF-32, that were further north (i.e. between Dawoud and Taqqaddum AB). They were far too far away to the west, and Tomcats were far too far away to the north. So, only 5 Sunliners and A-6Es were around.

BTW...
To American public the first Air to Air victory achieved in Operation Desert Storm was either that of Cap. Steve Tate F-15C from 71TFS/1TFW on a Mirage F.1EQ ( pilot Lt.col. Sabah Mutlag 89 Squadron - ejected safely ).

One more thing: Mutlag flew a F.1BQ (two-seater). His single-seater had a malfunction on scramble, and he had to quickly change to 'spare' aircraft.

He was well-experienced from the war with Iran and knew what it looked like when a Sparrow was fired at him. He evaded at least one AIM-7, before another hit his aircraft.

He was hit by Steve Tate I think
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Unread post02 Sep 2015, 11:42

For the Iraqis the environment was an extremely target rich and it shows in these descriptions. Of course for the same reason it was pretty difficult situation for Coalition pilots and AWACS crews. With so many friendly aircraft flying around, it must've been very difficult to keep an eye for everyone. MiG-25 was definitely the best chance for Iraqis as it had crude but large and powerful radar and equally crude, large but powerful missiles. This shows in this shoot down in that it was able to engage from quite far away compared to what was possible to smaller MiGs or Mirages and of course Iraqis knew the aircraft well.

I really wonder what was the tactical thinking behind sending only token aircraft against Coalition forces even during the first couple of days before being effectively decimated? Were Iraqis incapable of sending more fighter aircraft into air or were they trying to preserve their precious fighter force?
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old.iraqi.air.force

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Unread post02 Sep 2015, 12:37

As I confirmed before there is no pilot name Brig Gen Ahmad Sadik in old Iraq AF (this is fictional character).
And what oldaif told here came directly from Capt.Zuhair Dawood,other comment gives guesses and assumptions attributed to the incident is incorrect..
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Unread post02 Sep 2015, 13:14

old.iraqi.air.force wrote:As i confirmed before there is no pilot name Brig Gen Ahmad Sadik in old Iraq AF (this is fictional character).
And what oldaif tolled here came directly from Capt.Zuhair Dawood,other comment gives guesses and assumptions attributed to the incident is incorrect..

You're right here's some key stuff published 10 years ago.
http://www.military-quotes.com/forum/1991-lt-cdr-michael-speicher-t14808.html
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Unread post02 Sep 2015, 17:43

Ok, I'm wrong and Mr. Miserable Liar quasi-Mirage-pilot is 'right'.

Now let's talk frankly, and ask you two experts (the Mr. Miserable Liar quasi-Mirage-pilot, and you, Mark) to explain me the following: if this narrative 'by Dawoud' is 'right', then why is it full of 'guesses and assumptions'?

Indeed, guesses and assumptions that do not fit even the official IrAF documentation (such like '1991 Dossier on Role of IrAF in the Gulf War', table of 'Immediate Sorties' [meaning 'scrambles'] from 17 January 1991, p23)?

Reasons:

- Kelk engaged 'his' MiG-29 already around 03.15, about half an hour before Dawoud got airborne.

Hey! This was widely published, and should be well-known. Why then quess Kelk has seen Speicher's F/A-18 going down around 03.50? And who is guesing about this: Dawoud or the 'producer' of this narative?

- Above-mentioned document (available since some 3-4 years, compared to Sadik's interview with Dawoud from 2006*) cites Dawoud and Hamadan scrambling around the same time, i.e. 03.30.

- But, 'this Dawoud' says he was alerted only around 03.38, and got airborne 'three minutes later' (i.e. 03.41).

Isn't that interesting...?

- Problem: either the author of that narrative, or the official IrAF documentation is lying about the timing of Hamadan's scramble (too), then according to official IrAF documentation, Hamadan was scrambled around 03.30, and not '6 - 10 minutes after Dawoud' (i.e. between 03.47 and 03.51).

Perhaps one of you would be so kind to explain us this 'mystery' and tell us who is lying...?

- As next: all the F-15Cs of the initial wave were back over Saudi Arabia by 03.40.

- Speicher was shot down around 03.50.

- Means: Kelk couldn't see Speicher going down.

- Means: Kelk couldn't engage Hamadan's MiG-29.

- Means: whoever put that Sparrow into Hamadan's aircraft, it wasn't any of USAF F-15s.

Overall, it's either so that

- a) the provider of this narative is Dawoud, but with some extremely bad memory (indeed, a memory that's not even recollecting what he wrote into his post-mission report, provided to Sadik back in 2006); or

- b) the provider of this 'narrative' is a liar; an overenthisastic dumbass thinking he can fool everybody.

Now, please, don't get upset. I admit I'm a liar, producing guesses and assumptions. I do so not only in the case of Iran-Iraq War, but also about two dozens of other conflicts about which I've published so far. Since I have no clue why, and you know better, you'll be so kind to explain me why do I do that.

But then, be so kind and explain me all of this nonsense in that 'narrative'?

I learned to expect nothing but nonsense and absurdities from Mr Miserable Liar, but perhaps you, Mark, can explain me where is he 'right'...? Or, perhaps you could explain if the person that manufactured this narrative is just too clueless about what exactly was going on...?

*************

*Published in 2006 in German magazine Fliegerrevue Extra (Vol. 16), and in 2009, in the International Air Power Review, (Vol. 26)
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Unread post02 Sep 2015, 19:08

The whole matter is related to Baghdad winter-summer time difference...

Dawood engaged Speicher 25 min. after he took off ... That will make it 0306 .... And he took off 0238 not 0338 ( as I said Baghdad winter time which is not one hour late as summer time ) .... Hamdan took off approximately 0250 ... And if he was the one engaged by Kelk ( and that is my assumption ) not from Dawood narrative it would have been happened 0315 ... No conflict in time as I see !! But If Kelk reported the explosion in the horizon slightly earlier ( let's say less than min. Then it would be definitly Speicher ) ... But it was fog of war and confusion about exact time of reporting things that might happened

And regarding guesses and assumptions it was added by me not from Dawood narrative or official Iraqi AF documents to link other events at that night.
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Unread post02 Sep 2015, 22:58

sigh...

I know very well about local time zones and what you've added and what not.

What I do not know - or I'm not sure any more - is if your original source is really 'that' Dawoud.

...and thus I pointed out exactly at one of crucial problems with recording IrAF history - and then one that is making me really furious: fabrications.

Yes, you all get an original narrative, from your fathers, uncles, uncles' uncles, half-brother's uncle of wife-in-law, neighbour's uncle's brother-in-law of second degree etc...

But, then you start adding your assumptions - and thus create fabrications.

And what then? By the time such fabrications reach people like me, nobody knows what was original text any more, and then a CLOWN like this wannabe-'Mirage-pilot' (really a miserable liar that can't answer a single question addressed to him) is bullshitting around about my reliability and how I'm 'fabricating' maps and whatever else.... :roll:

And when some of you face something they don't like - then it's 'others' that are creating fabrications...?!?

I 'love' such people a lot. So much so, I'm sick and tired of them all. None of them has even a trace of clue about the nature of investigative journalistm (especially in regards of current or recent military affairs), no ideas about what 'cross-examination' means, even less about nature and practices of publishing etc. Not one of them has ever read anything of what I've published so far (or if, then they are misusing my publications, like this CLOWN is using my artwork of an Iraqi Mirage F.1EQ as his 'avatar', or presenting my articles as 'his').... but all of them know so much, and since they 'posess' internet too, they are 'right' and can offend and bullshit as much as they like.

And they are sole owners of the truth, of course! :x

Get your stuff together finally, all of you. If there is somebody providing his recollections: leave his narrative as it. And leave your assumptions for yourself.

If you don't know why: that is the best way to 'record' history. 'Say what the source said', cross-examine it as much as you like, but stick to that rule, no matter you like it or not. Nothing more, nothing less.

That's how we've done with hundreds of interviews that can be read in (between others) this book-series (which certain characters here have certainly never heard about, and even less so could ever imagine preparing):
- Arab MiGs, Volume 1: MiG-15s & MiG-17s in Service with Air Forces of Algeria, Egypt, Iraq, Morocco and Syria
- Arab MiGs, Volume 2: Supersonic Fighters, 1958-1967
- Arab MiGs, Volume 3: The June 1967 War
- Arab MiGs, Volume 4: Attrition War, 1967-1973
- Arab MiGs, Volume 5: October 1973 War, Part 1
- Arab MiGs, Volume 6: October 1973 War, Part 2.

If anybody thinks we (the team of authors that prepared these books) have got all the hundreds of generals and other ranks - from Algeria, Egypt, Iraq, Libya, Syria, Yemen etc - interviewed for that series because we're something like 'renowned' for fabricating their narratives, changing their content, twisting and turning official documentation or what people say as we like it or find it suitable... well, he/she is simply dumb and there's no help.
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Unread post02 Sep 2015, 23:24

The narrative is authentic and original ... The only assumption I made is that about Kelk kill which is not in the Narrative ... And here is other thing ... The kill that Graeter claimed against a Mirage F.1 was infact of a MiG-23ML from squadron 73 and this come from cross examining of Iraqi AF record and Graeter account ..
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Unread post03 Sep 2015, 00:04

tomcooper wrote:Ok, I'm wrong

Nothing new..

tomcooper wrote:Mr. Miserable Liar quasi-Mirage-pilot is 'right'.

You are the only miserable liar here and on internet community, don't forgot your last joke map this was one of hundreds lies of you.

On Mirage F.1EQ Service with Iraqi AF Episode 4 you wort this:-

tomcooper wrote:You really excell in stupidity, that's all that's left to say.

let me prove to you as i always did before who is really excell in stupidity.
tomcooper wrote:Anderson achieved a lock-on on Dawoud's MiG-25, but didn't fire because there was no positive ID from the AWACs. Nevertheless, Anderson's lock-on forced Dawoud to break towards south. He then continued a high-speed counter-clockwise 360-degrees turn.

-Do we need to shift our planet upside down to make this work for you! as you shift Saddam air base to the east and beyond the Tigris River on that map!
Capt. Zuhair Dawood took-off from Alqadisiya air base and towards to the south which is mean he is north to Capt.Mike Anderson formation, and Capt.Mike lock him on where Capt. Zuhair to the north from him, now Capt. Zuhair should turn to the right-west or to the south!! How is that even possible Capt. Zuhair heading to south and turn to the south!!! this one it's looks like when you draw route on 1/1000000 map..
tomcooper wrote:He then continued a high-speed counter-clockwise 360-degrees turn.

-Now look at this disaster MIG-25 in combat speed (counter-clockwise 360-degrees)!! even the 15 years old batter know than you in this issue, this mean the MIG-25 back over the base to complete his 360-degrees turn.
------
Do you want to know exactly what happened ? ok i will tell you in the language of numbers:-
Give copy to your friend in Tehran first to test their abilities and second to interpretation for you (they will need age to understand this calculations) and then back to tell me if they understand anything..
I do not boast myself or even compliment my fellow Americans pilots here, but this kind of calculations we and Americans do it in part of seconds under any condition during combat mission.

2000nm x 1.8=3600Km
F-18 0.9.5
3600 ÷ 3= 1200
F-18 speed + MIG-25 speed + take-off= 1200km ÷ 3.6= 333 meter per second
333 x 60 second= 19980 each aircraft a cross 20km approximately per minute
from 90km ÷ 20= 4.30 mint+ 1 minute take-off= 5.30 minute reach 90Km
3600 ÷ 2=1800 ÷ 3.6=500 meter per second
500x 60 second = 30000 meter 30km per minute
V secouer / GGR =R
500 M/per second x 500= 250000
250000 ÷ 9.81 x 1 = 25 km
90 Degree R.O.T = G x GGR ÷ V= total x 57.3
9.81 X 1= 0.01962 X 57.3= 1.12 Degree
His turn at every one second = 1.12 Degree to complete 90 Degree
90 ÷ 1.12 =80.35 second
5.30 + 1.20 minute = 6.50 minute till the break
call-delay time 30 second =7.20 minute till now.
This 30 second about 10 km head on to the right.
Again 90 Degree 80 = 1.20 = 8.4
Again 90 Degree to the left = 1.20 minute = 8.40
38km Distance from target
30 second (search and luck on) + 8.4= 9.10 fire (from take-off)
Time duration to the missile 3.5 + 1.8= 5.3 Mach
5.3 x 1320= approximately 7000km
7000 ÷ 5 3.6 = 1944 M/ per second
29000 ÷ 1944 = 14.9
9.10+ 15 =9.25 the impact
_____

One more thing, we have discussed this issue before on subject called (the first kill of the Gulf War) and we reach point (we and Americans) respect for each other's point of view, now what is your problem? and why do you bother your self here on this subject? If the Americans said this kill was at 0600 no problem, we and they are understand each other (what do you want here?)
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Unread post03 Sep 2015, 04:03

The one who always thinks he’s right and he has an answer for everything and seems to have an air of superiority about everything he needs to find himself!

For Old Iraqi air force, some people always thinks they are right and you try to correct them you became their enemy instead you have to get them to feel like you are on their side and that your ideas and their ideas are the same, So don't wear yourself out.
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Unread post03 Sep 2015, 10:21

oldiaf wrote:The narrative is authentic and original ...

Then leave it as such.

The only assumption I made is that about Kelk kill which is not in the Narrative ... And here is other thing ... The kill that Graeter claimed against a Mirage F.1 was infact of a MiG-23ML from squadron 73 and this come from cross examining of Iraqi AF record and Graeter account ..

What 'Iraqi AF record'? What's the designation of the document in question, and when was it issued? Who and from what squadron was flying that MiG-23ML, and from what base?

...and finally: if that MiG-23ML flew into the area of responsibility of the 2nd SOC IrAF, then why isn't it mentioned as such in the document I've mentioned above...?

old.iraqi.air.force wrote:-Do we need to shift our planet upside down to make this work for you!

Not necessary: it's just you who is too stupid to admit that you have no trace of clue about military flying - although claiming to be a 'former Mirage pilot'.

Plus, you're simply too clueless about this engagement (Anderson vs Dawoud) but to understand what happened. That's why you're not going to get any additional food for your fabrications in response.

On the contrary: you remind me of that 'serious historian' from Libya. Last year he's got an interview with Belkacem al-Zintani. For you and your 'Americans' here al-Zintani is not going to ring any bells. For Libyans, he's a hero who 'shot down' a USN's F-14 on 19 August 1981.

Problem was: that clown had to find some USN F-14 pilot al-Zintani 'must have killed'. So, he picked Henry Kleeman (leader of the USN's section that shot down the two Libyan Sukhois, indeed, the gent that shot down the Libyan wingman) - because Kleeman was killed in a landing accident with an F/A-18, in 1986.

Why should he care about F-14 being a two-seater or Dave Venlet (Kleeman's RIO) reaching the rank of Admiral...?

...and now he's argumenting that the USN has fabricated Kleeman's death certificate... :roll:

Ah yes, and regarding this:
One more thing, we have discussed this issue before on subject called (the first kill of the Gulf War) and we reach point (we and Americans) respect for each other's point of view, now what is your problem? and why do you bother your self here on this subject? If the Americans said this kill was at 0600 no problem, we and they are understand each other (what do you want here?)
Am I disturbing you, Mr. Miserable Liar?

You have no clue what are you talking about: you have some data which you do not even understand, even less so do you know how to use what you've got. And the 'Americans' you're talking with here have no clue what are you talking about - because they never studied anything of this closely enough.

Please, be my guests and remain in agreement :D

Give copy to your friend in Tehran first...
Hey clown: is 'Tehran' paying me to write a history of Arab air forces at wars with Israel, 1955-1973, too...?

And if so, who is then paying me to write a history of Ethiopian-Somali air war of 1977-1978? Or a complete ORBAT of the Chinese air force and naval aviation?

Or are you just too stupid to understand even this?

Finally, regarding your question about what am I doing here?

That's your own fault.

Namely, if you wouldn't have started bullshitting lies about my person, my integrity and my work, I would've never posted a single word here - nor care to reveal you for what you are: a clown with illusion of grandeur.

So, don't complain about my utter disrespect for a miserable liar like YOU, and don't you dare misinterpreting this as some sort of 'disrespect for the IrAF': I respect the IrAF more than you ever can imagine - that's why CONTRARY TO YOU I'm NOT publishing fabrications about it.

@Mark:
if I'm wrong, then SHOW ME I'm wrong instead of phylosophing about things you obviously have no clue about.

Where's your evidence?
Last edited by tomcooper on 03 Sep 2015, 10:30, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread post03 Sep 2015, 10:29

tomcooper wrote:
oldiaf wrote:The narrative is authentic and original ...

Then leave it as such.

The only assumption I made is that about Kelk kill which is not in the Narrative ... And here is other thing ... The kill that Graeter claimed against a Mirage F.1 was infact of a MiG-23ML from squadron 73 and this come from cross examining of Iraqi AF record and Graeter account ..

What 'Iraqi AF record'? What's the designation of the document in question, and when was it issued? Who and from what squadron was flying that MiG-23ML, and from what base?

...and finally: if that MiG-23ML flew into the area of responsibility of the 2nd SOC IrAF, then why isn't it mentioned as such in the document I've mentioned above...?

old.iraqi.air.force wrote:-Do we need to shift our planet upside down to make this work for you!

Not necessary: it's just you who is too stupid to admit that you have no trace of clue about military flying - although claiming to be a 'former Mirage pilot'.

Plus, you're simply too clueless about this engagement (Anderson vs Dawoud) but to understand what happened. That's why you're not going to get any additional food for your fabrications in response.

On the contrary: you remind me of that 'serious historian' from Libya. Last year he's got an interview with Belkacem al-Zintani. For you and your 'Americans' here al-Zintani is not going to ring any bells. For Libyans, he's a hero who 'shot down' a USN's F-14 on 19 August 1981.

Problem was: that clown had to find some USN F-14 pilot al-Zintani 'must have killed'. So, he picked Henry Kleeman (leader of the USN's section that shot down the two Libyan Sukhois, indeed, the gent that shot down the Libyan wingman) - because Kleeman was killed in a landing accident with an F/A-18, in 1986.

Why should he care about F-14 being a two-seater or Dave Venlet (Kleeman's RIO) reaching the rank of Admiral...?

...and now he's argumenting that the USN has fabricated Kleeman's death certificate... :roll:

Ah yes, and regarding this:
One more thing, we have discussed this issue before on subject called (the first kill of the Gulf War) and we reach point (we and Americans) respect for each other's point of view, now what is your problem? and why do you bother your self here on this subject? If the Americans said this kill was at 0600 no problem, we and they are understand each other (what do you want here?)
Am I disturbing you, Mr. Miserable Liar?

You have no clue what are you talking about: you have some data which you do not even understand, even less so do you know how to use what you've got. And the 'Americans' you're talking with here have no clue what are you talking about - because they never studied anything of this closely enough.

Please, be my guests and remain in agreement :D

And what am I doing here?

That's your own fault.

Namely, if you wouldn't have started bullshitting lies about my person, my integrity and my work, I would've never posted a single word here - nor care to reveal you for what you are: a clown with illusion of grandeur.

So, don't complain about my utter disrespect for a miserable liar like YOU, and don't you dare misinterpreting this as some sort of 'disrespect for the IrAF': I respect the IrAF more than you ever can imagine - that's why CONTRARY TO YOU I'm NOT publishing fabrications about it.

Finaly, @Mark:
if I'm wrong, then SHOW ME I'm wrong instead of phylosophing about things you obviously have no clue about.

Where's your evidence?

The MiG-23ML was from Squadron 73 based at Saad AB ( H2 ) pilot name Hasan ... The base had also contigent from 79 Mirage squadron ..
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Unread post03 Sep 2015, 10:31

oldiaf wrote:The MiG-23ML was from Squadron 73 based at Saad AB ( H2 ) pilot name Hasan ... The base had also contigent from 79 Mirage squadron ..

OK. And the rest? Who was the pilot ('Hassan' - who?) and what happened to him?

And why wasn't his mission into the 2nd SOC IrAF mentioned in the list of scrambles in an official IrAF document about scrambles of 2nd SOC IrAF?
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Unread post03 Sep 2015, 10:34

tomcooper wrote:
oldiaf wrote:The MiG-23ML was from Squadron 73 based at Saad AB ( H2 ) pilot name Hasan ... The base had also contigent from 79 Mirage squadron ..

OK. And the rest? Who was the pilot and what happened to him?

And why wasn't his mission into the 2nd SOC IrAF mentioned in the list of scrambles in an official IrAF document about scrambles of 2nd SOC IrAF?

As I said pilot Name was Hasan and he was KIA .... he was not mentioned because the Iraqi AF didn't know who shoot him down and there was a fear that this was a fratricide kill by the Air defenses
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Unread post03 Sep 2015, 10:46

oldiaf wrote:As I said pilot Name was Hasan and he was KIA .... he was not mentioned because the Iraqi AF didn't know who shoot him down and there was a fear that this was a fratricide kill by the Air defenses

OK, 'Hassan and I'll get no more'... as so often. :roll:

But, sorry, the rest of explanation is not really useful: if the 2nd SOC IrAF lists its scrambles from the night of 17 January 1991, and this contains only scrambles by Mirages, MiG-29s and MiG-25s... then why this MiG-23ML is not listed?

Fates of the aircraft in question are no reason: several of Mirages and MiG-29s were shot down too, but are listed. Why not that MiG-23ML?
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