MiG-25 gunned down by an F-5?

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basher54321

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Unread post18 Jul 2014, 16:02

old.iraqi.air.force wrote: Secondly, Ii was F-1 fighter pilot I'm not amateur or Aviation fan,....


Okay well that's positive

So what squadrons were you in and what variants did you fly? Were you in any of the Gulf Wars?
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Unread post18 Jul 2014, 21:05

old.iraqi.air.force wrote:
sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:All sides make claims and stories, but when Iranian stories are "oh yeah, 30 years ago we had no problem taking down MiG-25s with any and every fighter in our inventory" and U.S. stories are "20 years ago that MiG-25 outran 14 missiles and chased off our EW plane"... whose story sounds more believable?


The U.S. story reliable and confirmed because both side admit the incident and the Iraqi air force did not deny that "both loss of two MIG-25s during DS 91 or outran the missiles" but the main point is shot down the aircraft even before it enters service this illogical, and the story of Iranian F-5 gun MIG-25..

So the MiG-25 was flying slow enough for a M0.9 F-5E to catch it, and didn't have AWACS to advise that the F-5 was on their six. The F-5 optimally flies at M0.9 due to the turbojet engines, but not optimally at M1.0 - I doubted that a F-5E stayed supersonic against the MiG-25. The F-5 pilot not using their radar and alerting the MiG makes sense.

There are reports that the F-5Es have downed F-22s during exercises when the Raptor gets in too tight, and at least one gun kill where the Raptor basically popped up directly in front of the F-5. Loosing SA will loose the fight, no matter which jets are involved. That isn't the same as air superiority.

Anyone want to bet that a AC-208 can get an AA kill if the bandit looses SA?
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old.iraqi.air.force

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Unread post19 Jul 2014, 02:46

sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:So the MiG-25 was flying slow enough for a M0.9 F-5E to catch it, and didn't have AWACS to advise that the F-5 was on their six. The F-5 optimally flies at M0.9 due to the turbojet engines, but not optimally at M1.0 - I doubted that a F-5E stayed supersonic against the MiG-25. The F-5 pilot not using their radar and alerting the MiG makes sense.

There are reports that the F-5Es have downed F-22s during exercises when the Raptor gets in too tight, and at least one gun kill where the Raptor basically popped up directly in front of the F-5. Loosing SA will loose the fight, no matter which jets are involved. That isn't the same as air superiority.

Anyone want to bet that a AC-208 can get an AA kill if the bandit looses SA?

As in my experience I did calculate the speed and the height to the F-5 in the best case (while they returning from attacking ground targets on the front line " as he claim in the story") basically they will never ever fly more than 1.3 feet since they were over friendly territory, and lets say the F-5 were travel on M0.9.

Now the Iraqi MiG-25 (that he didn't clarify or even mentioned what is the reason behind the short of fuel) will never flay low than 6.5 T-Feet , first to reduce fuel consumption second to achieve enough speed, and three the more important flying over hostile territory and we should not to forget the strategy followed by MiG-25 pilots (the speed ​​and height are a means of defense first) and lets say the MIG-25 pilot was on M0.9 as well.

Now the F-5 pilot will detect him in visual contact from 28Km and both of them traveling 13Km per minutes (if I'm not wrong) so this two minutes was enough to the F-5 pilot to climb up to 6.5 T-Feet and equip the cannon and open fire!!
I believe the creator of this fabricated story suffers from mental problems (I do not mean to offend at all) but I'm talking logic..

Whoever tomorrow I will post another comment based on MiG-25 pilots involved in action "Iran-Iraq war" and one of the unique brigade pilot of Iraqi air force, to end this lies.
1.3 feet = 3Km high
6.5 feet = 20Km high
*In our military calculations
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tomcooper

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Unread post19 Jul 2014, 06:24

Oh man...

I nowhere said the F-5s were 'returning' from anywhere. But, he's trying to babble himself out of the problem - by creating more fabrications.

Actually, Zare-Nejad and Shabani have just launched for a ground attack when advised about Foxbat's appearance by the GCI. That's why they've had enough fuel for the pursuit.

Secondly, if he would have any kind of clue about MiG-25RB-ops over Iran, or indeed understanding of flying, he would know that for most of such ops, they were operating so much on the verge of their endurance, that the reason they were returning to Iraq at medium altitudes and low speeds - i.e. 'gliding' - was that they were out of fuel. They lacked fuel to descend only after reaching the Iraqi airspace.

Thirdly, if he flew Mirage F.1s - and even more so: if he has any kind of clue about IRIAF F-5 ops, which would be a 'must' if he served indeed - he would know that F-5Es from TFB.2 were used for flying CAPs over northern Iran too. And this starting in March/April 1981. Reason: Iraqi MiG-25PDS' were repeatedly attempting to intercept and shot down some of many international airliners transiting the civilian corridor between Tehran and Ankara. For example, in spring 1981 they have shot down a Falcon biz-jet carrying the Algerian Foreign Minister from Tehran via Turkey to Baghdad (and this on direct order from Saddam), while he was attempting to negotiate a cease-fire between Iran and Iraq. Subsequently, Baghdad declared the entire Iranian airspace for 'war zone', attempting to isolate Iran on international scene and shut down its airspace.

Even more so: if he would have been a Mirage F.1 pilot, he would have to know about this, because Mirages were using similar routes like MiG-25s for entering the Iranian airspace - for example when attacking the Rey oil-refinery near Tehran, late during the war.

Anyway, the Iraqis nearly succeeded in shooting down some of airliners (they deployed Mirage F.1s for this purpose too, not only MiG-25PDS'), but never managed this. One of reasons were CAPs flown by F-5s.

Later on, once the 'War of the Cities' began, F-5-pilots from TFB.2 (and F-4 pilots from TFB.3 too) even began developing tactics for intercepting Foxbats (details about this in the book mentioned above; no point in feeding this troll). Sufficient to say that although they never caught any of Foxbats, they did interrupt several of their attacks on cities in northern Iran. Indeed, they did so to such a degree that finally the Iraqis set up a trap for Tigers: they've sent a MiG-25PDS (interceptor) into Iranian airspace, mimicking a MiG-25RB-flight profile. When the F-5E climbed to intercept, it was shot down by two R-40 missiles (date, name of IrAF pilot and place were provided by Brig Gen Ahmad Sadik and published in that French publication, back in 2007; name of IRIAF pilot etc. are to be provided in the F-5-book).

But, because this character is a charlatan, he can't know about that nor brag about it...

For the same reason, he's never going to reply any of your or my questions, especially not about his supposed service. You can ask him about his pilot log book too (something that is a 'must' for every pilot), and you'll never get a reply from him in this regards either.

And so, 'talking' with him is funny - but completely pointless.
F-Arba-Ashara!! Yalla, yalla!!
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basher54321

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Unread post19 Jul 2014, 11:21

old.iraqi.air.force wrote:
sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:So the MiG-25 was flying slow enough for a M0.9 F-5E to catch it, and didn't have AWACS to advise that the F-5 was on their six. The F-5 optimally flies at M0.9 due to the turbojet engines, but not optimally at M1.0 - I doubted that a F-5E stayed supersonic against the MiG-25. The F-5 pilot not using their radar and alerting the MiG makes sense.

There are reports that the F-5Es have downed F-22s during exercises when the Raptor gets in too tight, and at least one gun kill where the Raptor basically popped up directly in front of the F-5. Loosing SA will loose the fight, no matter which jets are involved. That isn't the same as air superiority.

Anyone want to bet that a AC-208 can get an AA kill if the bandit looses SA?


As in my experience I did calculate the speed and the height to the F-5 in the best case (while they returning from attacking ground targets on the front line " as he claim in the story") basically they will never ever fly more than 1.3 feet since they were over friendly territory, and lets say the F-5 were travel on M0.9.

Now the Iraqi MiG-25 (that he didn't clarify or even mentioned what is the reason behind the short of fuel) will never flay low than 6.5 T-Feet , first to reduce fuel consumption second to achieve enough speed, and three the more important flying over hostile territory and we should not to forget the strategy followed by MiG-25 pilots (the speed ​​and height are a means of defense first) and lets say the MIG-25 pilot was on M0.9 as well.

Now the F-5 pilot will detect him in visual contact from 28Km and both of them traveling 13Km per minutes (if I'm not wrong) so this two minutes was enough to the F-5 pilot to climb up to 6.5 T-Feet and equip the cannon and open fire!!
I believe the creator of this fabricated story suffers from mental problems (I do not mean to offend at all) but I'm talking logic..

Whoever tomorrow I will post another comment based on MiG-25 pilots involved in action "Iran-Iraq war" and one of the unique brigade pilot of Iraqi air force, to end this lies.
1.3 feet = 3Km high
6.5 feet = 20Km high
*In our military calculations


Here's my thing

A Mirage F.1 pilot would have no problem understanding some of the basic limitations of an RWR of this era.

A Mirage F.1 pilot would have no problem proudly stating the different jets he might have flown and maybe even the squadrons

I will give you the benefit of the doubt regarding English - but advise on this - stating someone has metal issues when you don't like what they are writing is not the way to go.

Okay so the F-5s might have stayed low to avoid radar - but where does this assumption come from that they are always below 3KM and what's limiting them from going higher?

According to you the MiG would never fly below 65,000ft (20KM) on its flight profile - apart from getting to and from that altitude obviously.........however if it didn't have the fuel to maintain the thrust required to keep the speed required to stay in level flight at that altitude - then it simply would have had to descend at some point on the way back (true of any aircraft). You will of course be able to tell me exactly what that critical speed is.

If the F-5s were directed up there by GCI why could they not be directed to an optimum intercept course if the MiG was descending and in Mil power for example. (The F-5E was not a helicopter.)

Can we see the range calculation and figures you have used for MiGs flight profile?

If you want to call out a historian who's work seems to be very well respected - for example it has to be of very high level to get published by Osprey you need to do a lot better than this...
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Unread post19 Jul 2014, 14:32

Look at the contradiction and fabrication of the false story between now and then by Tomcooper below, now recently he post this allegations:
tomcooper wrote:Actually, Zare-Nejad and Shabani have just launched for a ground attack when advised about Foxbat's appearance by the GCI. That's why they've had enough fuel for the pursuit.
Secondly, if he would have any kind of clue about MiG-25RB-ops over Iran, or indeed understanding of flying, he would know that for most of such ops, they were operating so much on the verge of their endurance, that the reason they were returning to Iraq at medium altitudes and low speeds - i.e. 'gliding' - was that they were out of fuel. They lacked fuel to descend only after reaching the Iraqi airspace.

tomcooper wrote:Usually, it was so that the Foxbat could approach to within 45-50 or so kilometres from the target, release and then run away at Mach 2.1-2.3 before caught by Iranian interceptors. In that one (on 4 July 1986) case it didn't: it had to decelerate or risk running out of fuel before reaching the Iraqi border. And it had to descend. By accident, there were two F-5Es around: they were actually underway on a CAS sortie and had to jettison their bombs before engaging (a reason more why they run out of fuel 'early').
So, no 'complacent' Foxbat pilot or anything else: the guy did what he could. He even made a safe emergency landing back in Iraq, but the plane was simply too badly damaged for repairs. So, a write off.


And here what Tomcooper fabrication another action story by another pilot name!, in 20 Dec 2010 on iraqimilitary.org forum
tomcooper wrote: A pair of F-5Es underway on a CAS sortie were ordered to jettison their bombs and vectored to intercept. Only the lead of these two Tigers, flown by Javadpour, managed to catch with the MiG-25: both of his Sidewinders failed to fire, so he selected cannons and fired two long bursts in front of the MiG, spending all of his ammo in the process. The last string of rounds hit the MiG, knocking out one engine and setting it afire. The pilot made an emergency landing at an airfield in northern Iraq. Brig Gen Sadik saw that plane with his own eyes after the landing, and confirmed that it was subsequently shot down.

Now which of these allegations we have to rely on? (Iceman got gun fire by read star F-5 or Hollywood/Wolfman got shot down by Sidewinder?)...
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Unread post19 Jul 2014, 15:44

Yet you fail to answer all my questions and you just keep jumping from subject to another trying to evading answer the questions
you claim
tomcooper wrote:Mokhalad rose in rank to that of a general and deputy C-in-C IrAF - before his death (somebody else could ask me about his CV and the background for all the kill markings on that Mirage; you certainly not.)
and this is simply not true.

you claim Iranian F-14s shot down likely 3 to 4 Iraqi super etendards, and this is simply not true.
http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1983/1983%20-%202094.html
you claim you have top secret document and photos proof your allegations, and this is simply not true we haven't seen anything of these top secret document so far.
you claim that the soviets were flying MiG27K out of Iraq in a "top secret" test missions and were shot down by Iran..etc and this is simply not true just empty allegations (proof it if you can).
you claim that the Belgian mercenary pilots" flying Iraq's missions against Siri Larak etc, and this is simply not true just empty allegations (proof it if you can).
you claim
tomcooper wrote:I found the wreckage of the Foxbat in question (together with three others) - and photographed it - at the dump of ex-Habbaniyah AB, back in March 2006. It still had bomb-shackles under (what was left of) its left wing.
and this is simply not true because there is a lot of debris scattered remnants of the army and air force in each AB and that doesn't mean the wreckage proof of the Foxbat in your fabricated story, While you claim it use Abu Ubayda Air Base at al-Kut which is 180Km south east Capital Baghdad, And the alleged incident (it must be north west to the Iraqi border because the Iranian F-5 located in that area "and this is a contradiction in itself", the another contradiction " why the pilot chosen farthest AB to land at Al-Habbaniyah AB while he was short fuel and badly damaged!!
you claim
tomcooper wrote:I've spent nearly a week in Baghdad and at the Air Force Academy in Tikrit. Sadly, although showing me around, the IrAF was not very forthcoming with information about the war with Iran, nor curious to let me take any photos. Essentially, everybody told me, 'that's all history now', back then.
I don't trust this part proof this visiting, with who and what commanders you did spoke?! and why and how they did allow you to inter the Air Force Academy in Tikrit who was the Dean of the academy at that time? describe or give me anything simple or any details about the headquarters in side the AB or the guests hall how its looks like and what color was the dominant of the main entrance?? then if you were journalist very strange and unlikely to be hosted to the Air Force Academy in Tikrit !! All journalists and media staff from Al-Jazeera or CBS, BBC, (CNN not any more after 1991) are hosted in the compound of the headquarters at Al-Mansour in Baghdad, so why you were the only one hosted to the Force Academy in Tikrit!!??
Last edited by old.iraqi.air.force on 19 Jul 2014, 15:52, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread post19 Jul 2014, 15:50

old.iraqi.air.force wrote:Look at the contradiction and fabrication of the false story between now and then by Tomcooper below, now recently he post this allegations.

Now which of these allegations we have to rely on? (Iceman got gun fire by red star F-5 or Hollywood/Wolfman got shot down by Sidewinder?)...


:doh: All three sections you have posted are actually consistent with each other- there is no contradiction. Some add a bit more detail - perhaps that is what is confusing you.

Sorry but I think either your grasp on English or aviation is not good enough to understand what is actually written there.
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Unread post19 Jul 2014, 15:58

So do you see these name are the same (Zare-Nejad and Shabani) recently became the hero of the story and (Javadpour) was in 2010 who fired the MIG-25! this is what i mean in contrast to the characters and events.
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Unread post19 Jul 2014, 16:16

old.iraqi.air.force wrote:So do you see these name are the same (Zare-Nejad and Shabani) recently became the hero of the story and (Javadpour) was in 2010 who fired the MIG-25! this is what i mean in contrast to the characters and events.


Yes - but details like these can be subject to change - initial research may have given him certain names - then a few years later another source may have provided better information - thus the information in the overall story would have to change.

Research is only as good as the information from the sources you can get - it is not always 100% fact.

If you want to refute the research then you must provide compelling evidence to the contrary.

From an aerodynamic point of view there is nothing fantasy about the story - the F-5E was more than capable of getting to 30,000 ft.
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Unread post19 Jul 2014, 18:12

basher54321 wrote:
old.iraqi.air.force wrote:So do you see these name are the same (Zare-Nejad and Shabani) recently became the hero of the story and (Javadpour) was in 2010 who fired the MIG-25! this is what i mean in contrast to the characters and events.


Yes - but details like these can be subject to change - initial research may have given him certain names - then a few years later another source may have provided better information - thus the information in the overall story would have to change.

Research is only as good as the information from the sources you can get - it is not always 100% fact.

If you want to refute the research then you must provide compelling evidence to the contrary.

From an aerodynamic point of view there is nothing fantasy about the story - the F-5E was more than capable of getting to 30,000 ft.

Excellent answer,

Since they're not really sure %100 who is the the involved pilot, and these allegations are still under investigation therefore we cannot estimate credibility of the allegations and the fact level behind this story, ultimately considered just propaganda by Iranian AF no more that.

About a three years ago the involved pilot was (Javadpour), after that (Zare-Nejad and Shabani) became the involved pilots, who knows after a few years will appear a new characters claim they are the heroes of this story, since there is no evidence to prove the incident at all and and most actions and details that came in the story are weird and unfamiliar "preposterous", at the end we have reached the same what i mentioned in my first comment to mixelflick it's just propaganda no more.

Trying to prove allegations still under research this is unconvincing and implausible, passage of the Vietnam and Korean War Arab-Israeli conflict and first and second Gulf War, wishes still hanging each one is trying to prove the victory at the expense of the other.
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Unread post19 Jul 2014, 18:41

old.iraqi.air.force wrote:


Okay so the story you posted here called Iraqi TU-22 - The ghost Blinders http://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=24905&p=264462#p264462

This is copied word for word from here isn't it with a few changes:
http://www.acig.info/CMS/index.php?opti ... &Itemid=47 (Contributed by Tom Cooper, Farzad Bishop and Arthur Hubers, with Brig. Gen. Ahmad Sadik (IrAF, ret.) - Last Updated Dec 07, 2010 at 01:38 PM )

So can you tell us why you are on the one hand trying to discredit one of the few western researchers looking into Mid East History on one hand - but on the other passing off stories from the very same author as your own?

Generally people have been as polite as they can be - but it's obvious from previous posts you were never a fighter pilot - were you in the IrAF? ( you are aware that many ex fighter pilots and aero industry specialists frequent this site yes?)

A lot of the research is plausible - BUT you need an understanding of aviation to know why - if you don't have this it may explain why you seem to be basing your assumptions on emotion. For example you cant take one story that goes in favor of the Iraq AF and say its great - and then on the other hand dismiss one that goes in favor of the Iranian AF as propaganda.

(Just not professional old chap)
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Unread post19 Jul 2014, 19:01

basher54321 wrote:So can you tell us why you are on the one hand trying to discredit one of the few western researchers looking into Mid East History on one hand - but on the other passing off stories from the very same author as your own?


Because the original story had been published on Iraqi Air Force magazine since 1994. Or how do you think they get all these details?

Secondly, if I were refute the allegations and prove the reality to the community gives you the impression that i wasn't fighter pilots, then this will make no difference to me whether you are convinced or not, and my behaviour was more than good for who deserve of my fellow Americans and Europeans on this site, Otherwise each one has the opposite level of deal..
I think now we have done,

Enjoy your time.
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Unread post20 Jul 2014, 00:14

old.iraqi.air.force wrote:Because the original story had been published on Iraqi Air Force magazine since 1994. Or how do you think they get all these details?

Secondly, if I were refute the allegations and prove the reality to the community gives you the impression that i wasn't fighter pilots, then this will make no difference to me whether you are convinced or not, and my behaviour was more than good for who deserve of my fellow Americans and Europeans on this site, Otherwise each one has the opposite level of deal..
I think now we have done,


Like all research it is obtained from any sources deemed as reputable such as Iraqi Air Force personnel for example. If you have a similar version from 1994 then that doesn't mean Tom Cooper didn't get details from another source and was not aware it was published earlier.

You are free to question or refute anything where you have actual contradictory evidence - however what you cannot do is claim to be something you are not and then ignore any and all subsequent questions regarding the validity of the claim (this is called Trolling).

Anyway - all the best.
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Unread post21 Jul 2014, 18:28

basher54321 wrote:Like all research it is obtained from any sources deemed as reputable such as Iraqi Air Force personnel for example. If you have a similar version from 1994 then that doesn't mean Tom Cooper didn't get details from another source and was not aware it was published earlier.

You are free to question or refute anything where you have actual contradictory evidence - however what you cannot do is claim to be something you are not and then ignore any and all subsequent questions regarding the validity of the claim (this is called Trolling).

Anyway - all the best.

I didn't deny that Tomcooper has other sources brought him to the details of the story, but his colleagues who narrated the story to him they were rely on what was published by Iraq air force magazine in that time, and the proof is simple (when the story was published in the magazine it was anniversary of the death of one Iraqi pilots involved in that mission) who was the squadron leader and the formation leader and the planned of that air raid, but the magazine didn't mention the cause of his death, it was under short title (sacrificed their life for the homeland) referring to the pilot and navigator...

And what was not known until the moment and for the first time, one of these Iraqi TU-22 led by lieutenant colonel Ibrahim has been crashed at the same night of that day in the final stage of approaching to the runway at Al-walid air base, killing both pilots due to the orders from the leadership of the Air Force insisted on the transfer the TU-22s from Al-Habbaniyah AB to H3 for expect air strike by Iranian in the next morning, lieutenant colonel Ibrahim was fatigued and tried to postpone the evacuation of the plane to the next day, but leadership insisted on the transfer of aircraft..

And one of the involved Iraq TU-22 that carried out the strike returned carrying with it a sidewinder missile hit the rear fin and did not explode remains stuck like an arrow.

There was no Soviet pilots or any others carried missions in Iraqi air force, it was totally by Iraqi pilots.

Now the picture became clear of that mission.
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