No Patriots but lots of Vulcan C-RAM

New and old developments in aviation technology.
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madrat

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Unread post14 Jan 2020, 06:12

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4g3z8E ... TFO1N6Ygko

This is a video game called Arma III that simulates what a C-RAM (Counter Rocket, Artillery, and Mortar) could have looked like in action. And below is actual 20mm C-RAM testing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7rc7U61B5E
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64RI38PLEL4

The German 35mm system sounds less pleasant, but has more reach and punch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skuEKvYJGzw

Are these systems a plausible defense against an attack by SSMs like we saw on January 8? For bases without Patriots it would seem these systems should provide formidable anti-missile protection.
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hornetfinn

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Unread post14 Jan 2020, 10:50

madrat wrote:Are these systems a plausible defense against an attack by SSMs like we saw on January 8? For bases without Patriots it would seem these systems should provide formidable anti-missile protection.


I bet these could be used against some short range ballistic missiles along with UAVs and cruise missiles. Problem with these is the very short range against very fast targets like ballistic missiles. So the defended footprint would be rather small and a lot of those systems would be needed to protect a large base like Ain Al-Assad.
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milosh

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Unread post14 Jan 2020, 20:58

Vulcan wouldn't help because of short range, warhead or rocket will still fall somewhere. It is similar like soviet/russian fast big antiship missiles, CIWS could hit it but missile will continue to move and there is not small chance it hit something. That is why RAM was developed, so SHORAD can engage missile further from ship.
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sferrin

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Unread post16 Jan 2020, 14:37

milosh wrote:Vulcan wouldn't help because of short range, warhead or rocket will still fall somewhere. It is similar like soviet/russian fast big antiship missiles, CIWS could hit it but missile will continue to move and there is not small chance it hit something. That is why RAM was developed, so SHORAD can engage missile further from ship.


At sea Phalanx fires armor piercing shells to kill the warhead. On land they us HE rounds that explode after a given amount of time (if they miss) so the fragments falling to the ground are smaller.
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milosh

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Unread post16 Jan 2020, 20:46

sferrin wrote:
milosh wrote:Vulcan wouldn't help because of short range, warhead or rocket will still fall somewhere. It is similar like soviet/russian fast big antiship missiles, CIWS could hit it but missile will continue to move and there is not small chance it hit something. That is why RAM was developed, so SHORAD can engage missile further from ship.


At sea Phalanx fires armor piercing shells to kill the warhead. On land they us HE rounds that explode after a given amount of time (if they miss) so the fragments falling to the ground are smaller.


Good against some armored warheads but against something like this it wouldn't cut:
http://army-news.ru/images_stati/boevay ... Granit.jpg

P-700 semi AP warhead.

I estimated 10mm RHA steel shell minimum thickness, head on it is noticeable thicker, BM warhead could have even thicker armor shell.
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marauder2048

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Unread post16 Jan 2020, 22:21

The Phalanx C-RAM rounds do have AP capability > 10mm RHA ; there's a steel disc that gets propelled forward
by the bursting charge. It's draggy enough such that on self-destruct it won't have enough retained velocity
coming back down to be much of a threat.
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sferrin

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Unread post17 Jan 2020, 14:49

milosh wrote:I estimated 10mm RHA steel shell minimum thickness, head on it is noticeable thicker, BM warhead could have even thicker armor shell.


A tungsten carbide penetrator wouldn't have any problem with that. It's not like they weren't aware of the existence of P-500 / 700 / 1000.
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milosh

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Unread post17 Jan 2020, 17:54

sferrin wrote:
milosh wrote:I estimated 10mm RHA steel shell minimum thickness, head on it is noticeable thicker, BM warhead could have even thicker armor shell.


A tungsten carbide penetrator wouldn't have any problem with that. It's not like they weren't aware of the existence of P-500 / 700 / 1000.


No.

M56 HEI: .25-inch (6.3 mm), RHA at 60 degrees, obliquity at 221 meters; .50-inch (12.5 mm), RHA at 0 degrees, obliquity at 104 meters.
M53 API: .25-inch (6.3 mm), RHA at 0 degrees, obliquity at 1,000 meters.
M940 MPT-SD: .25-inch (6.3 mm), RHA at 60 degrees, obliquity at 940 meters; .50-inch (12.5 mm), RHA at 0 degrees, obliquity at 518 meters.


This is lot smaller then nose armor of P-700 warhead. In fact it isn't enough even for side armor (I wrote at least 10mm but it look like noticable thicker around 15mm) but side armor is more less irrelevant if we are talking about point defense systems they will protect target which is attack by head on missile.
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sprstdlyscottsmn

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Unread post17 Jan 2020, 18:12

6.3mm at 60 degrees is 10.9mm actual penetration, just for clarity. And those are the test plates penetrated likely as a requirement, not maximum possible penetration.
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shania

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Unread post18 Jan 2020, 09:38

Detonating warhead is one thing, but what really happens to fast missile, if structure is hit by multiple projectiles, especially damage to wings and control surfaces? ASM probably disintegrate, deflect from course.
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garrya

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Unread post18 Jan 2020, 15:34

milosh wrote:
sferrin wrote:
milosh wrote:I estimated 10mm RHA steel shell minimum thickness, head on it is noticeable thicker, BM warhead could have even thicker armor shell.


A tungsten carbide penetrator wouldn't have any problem with that. It's not like they weren't aware of the existence of P-500 / 700 / 1000.


No.

M56 HEI: .25-inch (6.3 mm), RHA at 60 degrees, obliquity at 221 meters; .50-inch (12.5 mm), RHA at 0 degrees, obliquity at 104 meters.
M53 API: .25-inch (6.3 mm), RHA at 0 degrees, obliquity at 1,000 meters.
M940 MPT-SD: .25-inch (6.3 mm), RHA at 60 degrees, obliquity at 940 meters; .50-inch (12.5 mm), RHA at 0 degrees, obliquity at 518 meters.


This is lot smaller then nose armor of P-700 warhead. In fact it isn't enough even for side armor (I wrote at least 10mm but it look like noticable thicker around 15mm) but side armor is more less irrelevant if we are talking about point defense systems they will protect target which is attack by head on missile.

None of these above round use tungsten penetrator:
M56 is a high explosive incendiary round with no penetrator
DA0AE830-208A-4507-B192-4BAD737DF2BF.jpeg


M53 is an armor piercing round with internal steel penetrator but it is a very old round, the later PGU-28 used on F-16 block 50 reportedly travel 3 times further.
6603CAC7-6B55-45EE-96F3-62A0369A2FFD.jpeg


M940 is a multi purpose explosive round with no penetrator either
10C94511-D376-4A16-BAD0-74D21E99CFE7.jpeg


On the other hand, a true APDS 20 mm round with tungsten penetrator such as MK149 can penetrate minimum of 25.4 mm RHA at 1000 m with 45 degree obliquity. I said minimum because this penetration value is for stationary target however, P-700 moving at Mach 1.6 in opposite direction will increase the colliding velocity with the round significantly which will result in much higher penetration value.
6A4487A4-12E3-4B1C-AB5E-2BC8192E2D00.jpeg


It is important to note that MK149 isn't the best armor piercing round used by Phalanx. MK244 reportedly use 48% heavier penetrator and we know heavier penetrator can penetrate more.
85F2A230-7FC6-4520-85F3-0FFB82FE4777.jpeg
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marauder2048

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Unread post19 Jan 2020, 07:13

The steel disc in the M940 (the element between the nose and body incendiary fills) is the penetrator.

As sferrin alluded to, the reason you don't see the saboted rounds with penetrators used on land is
the danger from the sabot pedals and the heavy, streamlined tungsten penetrators that will
fall back to earth from the many dozens of projectiles that don't make contact.

Gatling guns were looked at as "last ditch" defenses for missile silos so the idea isn't totally off base.
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garrya

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Unread post19 Jan 2020, 08:30

marauder2048 wrote:The steel disc in the M940 (the element between the nose and body incendiary fills) is the penetrator.

I don't think that disc is the penetrator, the shape is unreasonable and it is too small. IMHO, that disc is part of the fuse.
There are rounds with internal tungsten penetrator such as MK211 and PGU-47 but their penetrator have very different shape and significantly bigger
5944D17F-29DF-46A9-A971-EB642A052794.png

664BAD13-D70C-4336-945B-87A420E0083F.jpeg
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marauder2048

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Unread post19 Jan 2020, 20:38

It's the right shape if you don't want it returning the earth with enough velocity to be dangerous
There's no claim that it's going to match the performance of the heavier, low-drag sub-caliber penetrators.
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hornetfinn

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Unread post20 Jan 2020, 10:57

shania wrote:Detonating warhead is one thing, but what really happens to fast missile, if structure is hit by multiple projectiles, especially damage to wings and control surfaces? ASM probably disintegrate, deflect from course.


This will happen (first 20 seconds of the video):


The missile will likely distintegrate but keep moving forward for some time. Big and fast missiles will be pretty dangerous even if hit as they might not disintegrate enough to deflect them from hitting the ship. But it's difficult to know as the speed of the missile will mean the missile will experience huge forces that might disintegrate it faster. Of course those missiles are also pretty tough.

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