Russian AESAs - what gives?

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wrightwing

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Unread post13 Jul 2017, 22:26

wewuzkangz wrote:
hornetfinn wrote:It took USA about 20 years to get from test beds to operational AESA. USA has far superior resources and technological capability to Russia, so that's why it takes quite a long time for Russia to come up with operational AESA. The technology is actually quite complex and requires a lot of work to get right.


Nope its money even their IRBIS has a farther lower RCS detecting range than f-22 or F-35. Most of their money is spent on mobile air defenses and ground radars than airforce.

Eh, no it doesn't. Not even remotely comparable, in capabilities.
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juretrn

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Unread post14 Jul 2017, 00:17

vewuzkangz, aren't you a piece of work.
IRBIS has 400+ km range, but APG-77 doesn't? Whatever you say.
The aircraft's Northrop Grumman AN/APG-77 AESA radar system is able to detect enemy aircraft radar at distances of up to 285 miles (460 km).
http://www.fi-aeroweb.com/Defense/F-22-Raptor.html

(probably applies to APG-77v1)
Chew on that one for a while.

Keep in mind true ranges are very hush-hush. But rest assured the -77 is pretty much the most advanced air-to-air fighter radar, and constantly being upgraded.
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sprstdlyscottsmn

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Unread post14 Jul 2017, 05:18

Guys, I think there was a language barrier here. He was saying IRBIS is inferior to APG-77 and -81 as Russia spend all their money on SAMs.
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arian

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Unread post15 Jul 2017, 04:43

sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:Guys, I think there was a language barrier here. He was saying IRBIS is inferior to APG-77 and -81 as Russia spend all their money on SAMs.


He's saying the limiting factor is money, not technology, because according to highly reliable sources on RussiaDefence.net, citing highly reliable AirPowerAustralia.net, citing highly reliable Wikipedia.net, the APG-77's capabilities are weak.

One has to wonder how Irbis gets superior low-RCS detection range (actual radar modes not discussed), and at the same time get really terrible SAR ground resolution modes of 3m^2 (according to the same manufacturer's brochure). If technology isn't a barrier, then where is the evidence of technological parity?
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eloise

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Unread post21 Jul 2017, 20:46

wewuzkangz2 wrote:Bro do you even check the RCS in given ranges? Here let me give you an example. http://www.ausairpower.net/XIMG/Irbis-BARS.png and download/file.php?id=15156&mode=view..........Now before I drive everyone nuts here about using Australia airforce as a source there is still truth in what they put the radars set. Here is an example http://www.deagel.com/Sensor-Systems/Ir ... 00001.aspx and http://www.deagel.com/Sensor-Systems/AN ... 81001.aspx. Now lets look back at the pictures that no one in this forum likes. irbis RCS at 200 NMI looks like it can see an RCS of 3 at that range convert that to km its at 370km. WOW deagel says 400km it can see an RCS of 3 at that range....Some other sources say RCS of 3 at 350km but you get the general idea. Now in deagel it says RCS of .01 at 90km looks go look back at that image. so it shows it like touching 50 NMI thats like 92.6km ohhh no way is that a coincidence? Lets see if it isnt F-35 RCS detection of 1 at 150km now lets go look at that other image. lets see the red line in that picture is F-35 hmm so it looks like the RCS of 1 is at 81 to 82 nmi lets convert that so 81 nmi to km it shows 150.012km OHH LAWD baby jesus those darn australia air force images are right again with those different sources(Now everyone in the Forum thinks I am just giving them the middle finger.)........If anyone has looked into deagel it uses articles for ranges, RCS and all that unlike wiki using blogs, forums or whatever.

Now if everyone may excuse me I will start a bigger upheaval at another topic before I am done for today since i get limited responses. :wink:

What makes you think Deagel a reliable source?
You appear to be so surprised that those figures are equal??? , you must thought that APA somehow come up with a super accurate way to estimate radar range from public information like peak power, radar size and frequency and everyone here are dumb?. OK, before you give yourself a pat on the back thinking that you are so smart and gave everyone here a middle finger. New flash, all those radar range charts you saw on APA and blog are delivered from the radar range equation. They got one public detection vs RCS value then delivered the rest through equation. Everyone can do it. You watch about it here:


Or here
https://basicsaboutaerodynamicsandavion ... -benefits/
Or here
viewtopic.php?t=16084
For example, the radar range equation can be used to demonstrate logarithmically that a 40 percent reduction in RCS causes only a 10 percent reduction in the detection range

The number are equal because they are used as the started variable, how could you get the specific value wrong if they are literally initial input?

So what is the problem with using the radar equation you say?
the problem is you do not know the stated Signal-noise ratio that manufacturers used to achieve the initial detection range, higher SNR standard mean smaller, less impressive detection range to put on power point and APA charts but the detect will be much more reliable
Image
2 radar can have the same public detection range but if one used 13 dB SNR standard while the others used 5 dB SNR, that will be a dramatic difference in real war capability.
Last edited by eloise on 21 Jul 2017, 23:46, edited 1 time in total.
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eloise

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Unread post21 Jul 2017, 21:15

wewuzkangz2 wrote:The FGA-35(3D) was first shown at MAKS in 2013. It's a GaN-based AESA, scalable, meant for various platforms with the version shown at MAKS having a 688mm(?) antenna and 960 T/R's

Where did you hear that FGA-35 is GaN based? Another invention of internet fan based?
Image

wewuzkangz2 wrote:They are now moving to ROFAR radars if 2018 tests are successful than production in 2020...... Its lack of funding.

ROFAR? Do you even understand how it works?
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eloise

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Unread post21 Jul 2017, 21:18

arian wrote:
One has to wonder how Irbis gets superior low-RCS detection range (actual radar modes not discussed), and at the same time get really terrible SAR ground resolution modes of 3m^2 (according to the same manufacturer's brochure). If technology isn't a barrier, then where is the evidence of technological parity?

Technically speaking, range can be achieved through brute force while SAR resolution is more related to pulse compression and signal processing
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Unread post22 Jul 2017, 01:01

wewuzkangz2 wrote:The Russians will sell their shitty exports as usual while keeping things like this to themselves. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhuk_(radar) FGA-35(3D)[edit]
The FGA-35(3D) was first shown at MAKS in 2013. It's a GaN-based AESA, scalable, meant for various platforms with the version shown at MAKS having a 688mm(?) antenna and 960 T/R's. In an interview the new radar was mentioned to be weighing about 130 kg(for fighter planes)[20] and having a 200 km range for a 5-ton UAV version.[21] FGA-35(3D) was relabeled as FGA-35 while the original FGA-35 was relabeled as FGA-29.......They are now moving to ROFAR radars if 2018 tests are successful than production in 2020...... Its lack of funding.


Look, guy. This is the wrong forum if you want to post this sort of Wikipedia-level crap. I suggest Key Publishing, IndiaDefence or RussiaDefence forums. You'll fit right in there.

Export stuff vs. Russian Uber-Kryptonite radars? LOL. Zhuk-AME (what do you think the E stands for? lol) is the newest Russian AESA and its marketed to the Indians.

Now we know a bit about this radar not only from the manufacturer's advertisements, but also the manufacturer of the AESA modules that go on it. They're the same as the ones on the PAK-FA's radar. The manufacturer claims a SAR ground resolution of 0.5m^2. That, to put it mildly, is terrible for a radar in 2016.

wewuzkangz2 wrote:Bro do you even check the RCS in given ranges?


I was talking about SAR resolution. I don't think you understand, so I won't bother explaining. Others may have more patience than me.

eloise wrote:Technically speaking, range can be achieved through brute force while SAR resolution is more related to pulse compression and signal processing


Right. SAR is more demanding and if we're trying to compare "technological levels", that one might give us a better picture of the relative technical capabilities of a radar. Range info for air targets is pretty uninformative for all the reasons you gave, unless they actually tell us a lot more info (which they don't of course)
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Unread post22 Jul 2017, 01:07

wewuzkangz2 wrote:Great whats next your going to say the an/spy-6 is not a GaN radar as well because it works in dual band freq with 3d AESA tech like the fga-35(3d) :bang: ???? Also what gives with the f-22 120 degree azimuth radar range search with the f-35 140 degree azimuth. N036 scans in 240 radar works in multiple bands, Indians in 2012 have plans of a 360 degree radar with 90 degree scan. And SAAB claiming to transfer GAN AESA tech if Indians purchase their Gripens in which cased gripen ES-05s have a 200 degree scan?


This guy is fun.

Listen feller, maybe you can ask the manufacturer of those AESA modules. They certainly don't claim anything GaN.

Holy molly! N036 is multi-band 863 deg radar? Wow! All this with licensed older generation Intel technology. What amazing technology and sorcery these Russian engineers have.

wewuzkangz2 wrote:ROFAR is a photon based radar in which case according to head official of KRET saying it can spot a human at 400km and identify their face. RCS of human according to global security is 1 face is less than 1/10 the size of the whole human body along with mass and weight. So my estimate seems it can detect an RCS at less than .1 from 400km. And the radar will display the target like its in a tv screen. Yeah go ahead and say that head KRET official is on some strong sh*t but we have yet to see what it can do.


Can it see through plasma stealth, though? Cause F-35 will just put up its plasma stealth shield and block your puny ROFAR.
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Unread post22 Jul 2017, 01:23

arian wrote:
wewuzkangz2 wrote:Great whats next your going to say the an/spy-6 is not a GaN radar as well because it works in dual band freq with 3d AESA tech like the fga-35(3d) :bang: ???? Also what gives with the f-22 120 degree azimuth radar range search with the f-35 140 degree azimuth. N036 scans in 240 radar works in multiple bands, Indians in 2012 have plans of a 360 degree radar with 90 degree scan. And SAAB claiming to transfer GAN AESA tech if Indians purchase their Gripens in which cased gripen ES-05s have a 200 degree scan?


This guy is fun.

Listen feller, maybe you can ask the manufacturer of those AESA modules. They certainly don't claim anything GaN.

Holy molly! N036 is multi-band 863 deg radar? Wow! All this with licensed older generation Intel technology. What amazing technology and sorcery these Russian engineers have.

wewuzkangz2 wrote:ROFAR is a photon based radar in which case according to head official of KRET saying it can spot a human at 400km and identify their face. RCS of human according to global security is 1 face is less than 1/10 the size of the whole human body along with mass and weight. So my estimate seems it can detect an RCS at less than .1 from 400km. And the radar will display the target like its in a tv screen. Yeah go ahead and say that head KRET official is on some strong sh*t but we have yet to see what it can do.


Can it see through plasma stealth, though? Cause F-35 will just put up its plasma stealth shield and block your puny ROFAR.


???? But but Maks 2013 airshow they displayed it as GAN why does it have same features like 3d AESA and dual band modules like the GAN an/spy-6.... Name me a GaAS AESA radar(if you can) that features dual band freq with 3d radar tech bet you wont find that sh*t on a an/apg-77v1 or an/apg-81.

863 degrees? Is this the best way to defend an inferior 120 or 140 degree azimuth radar aircrafts. Well too bad its not working their inferiority complexes wont go away. Here go ahead and try comparing any 5th gen we have to this nice image. https://sputniknews.com/infographics/20 ... 025671772/

plasma stealth I put that on google and everything had the keyword Russia on it no joke try it :D but them knowing it as well ROFAR photons are a different story than radio waves in the EM detection field. No joke the T-50 works in most different radar bands, near infrared and UV.......Maybe Gamma and X-ray for next gen.
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arian

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Unread post22 Jul 2017, 01:33

wewuzkangz wrote:???? But but Maks 2013 airshow they displayed it as GAN why does it have same features like 3d AESA and dual band modules like the GAN an/spy-6.... Name me a GaAS AESA radar(if you can) that features dual band freq with 3d radar tech bet you wont find that sh*t on a an/apg-77v1 or an/apg-81.


You're an idiot. I'll just put it out there.

Image

wewuzkangz wrote:863 degrees? Is this the best way to defend an inferior 120 or 140 degree azimuth radar aircrafts. Well too bad its not working their inferiority complexes wont go away. Here go ahead and try comparing any 5th gen we have to this nice image. https://sputniknews.com/infographics/20 ... 025671772/

No joke the T-50 works in most different radar bands, near infrared and UV.......Maybe Gamma and X-ray for next gen.


Yep. Idiot. Confirmed.
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Unread post22 Jul 2017, 01:43

arian wrote:
wewuzkangz wrote:???? But but Maks 2013 airshow they displayed it as GAN why does it have same features like 3d AESA and dual band modules like the GAN an/spy-6.... Name me a GaAS AESA radar(if you can) that features dual band freq with 3d radar tech bet you wont find that sh*t on a an/apg-77v1 or an/apg-81.


You're an idiot. I'll just put it out there.

Image

wewuzkangz wrote:863 degrees? Is this the best way to defend an inferior 120 or 140 degree azimuth radar aircrafts. Well too bad its not working their inferiority complexes wont go away. Here go ahead and try comparing any 5th gen we have to this nice image. https://sputniknews.com/infographics/20 ... 025671772/

No joke the T-50 works in most different radar bands, near infrared and UV.......Maybe Gamma and X-ray for next gen.




Yep. Idiot. Confirmed.


So this puts you in the retard level lol???? Zhuk AE does it mention FGA-35(3d) well because as you know their are different variants.
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Unread post22 Jul 2017, 02:02

wewuzkangz wrote:
arian wrote:
wewuzkangz wrote:???? But but Maks 2013 airshow they displayed it as GAN why does it have same features like 3d AESA and dual band modules like the GAN an/spy-6.... Name me a GaAS AESA radar(if you can) that features dual band freq with 3d radar tech bet you wont find that sh*t on a an/apg-77v1 or an/apg-81.


You're an idiot. I'll just put it out there.

Image

wewuzkangz wrote:863 degrees? Is this the best way to defend an inferior 120 or 140 degree azimuth radar aircrafts. Well too bad its not working their inferiority complexes wont go away. Here go ahead and try comparing any 5th gen we have to this nice image. https://sputniknews.com/infographics/20 ... 025671772/

No joke the T-50 works in most different radar bands, near infrared and UV.......Maybe Gamma and X-ray for next gen.


For one this a source along with others calling it 3d aesa and dual band.https://www.scribd.com/document/2040040 ... tron-Paris



Yep. Idiot. Confirmed.


So this puts you in the retard level lol???? Zhuk AE does it mention FGA-35(3d) well because as you know their are different variants.
For one this a source along with others calling it 3d aesa and dual band.https://www.scribd.com/document/2040040 ... tron-Paris. For the 2nd its a T-50 with a 240 degree azimuth scan don't know if English is your 1st language along with those features it carries. Might have to make myself a 3rd account love giving responses.
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Unread post22 Jul 2017, 02:48

wewuzkangz2 wrote:Great whats next your going to say the an/spy-6 is not a GaN radar as well because it works in dual band freq with 3d AESA tech like the fga-35(3d) :bang: ????

Who tell you fga-35 is dual band ? if it is dual band then what is the frequency range?
and for your information, all fire control radar are 3D radar, 2D one are only used in early warning. You can have a 3D radar even with horn antenna
Image



wewuzkangz2 wrote:Also what gives with the f-22 120 degree azimuth radar range search with the f-35 140 degree azimuth. N036 scans in 240 radar works in multiple bands

Electronic scanned array whether AESA or PESA, using GaN or GaAs cannot scan pass 60 degrees boresight, because at that point their beam forming using wave interference no longer work, there is a limit for phase different
Image
Image

N036 are in fact several group of separate ESA, not a single one.
Image
Image

wewuzkangz2 wrote: Indians in 2012 have plans of a 360 degree radar with 90 degree scan.

If the beamwidth cover 90 degrees the radar would be useless for how inaccurate it is


wewuzkangz2 wrote: And SAAB claiming to transfer GAN AESA tech if Indians purchase their Gripens in which cased gripen ES-05s have a 200 degree scan?

ES-05 is an AESA that was put on a movable plate, the field of regard has nothing to do with whether the radar uses GaN or GaAs modules
Image
The same case for the new AESA on Typhoon or Irbis-E on Su-35, they do not use GaN but they have big field of regard because they are on a movable plate, that it
Image
Image

wewuzkangz2 wrote: ROFAR is a photon based radar And the radar will display the target like its in a tv

So what you saying is that, they use visual light ? because that exactly what photons mean.


wewuzkangz2 wrote:in which case according to head official of KRET saying it can spot a human at 400km and identify their face. RCS of human according to global security is 1 face is less than 1/10 the size of the whole human body along with mass and weight. So my estimate seems it can detect an RCS at less than .1 from 400km. .

So how big is that ROFAR ? what is the average power?
Because TPY-2 can have that kind of detection range too, despite not using magical photonic technology

wewuzkangz2 wrote: RCS yes its also measured in decibels for noise. Its just multiple articles saying the same thing that relate to AUS APs charts.

If you don't understand what iam talking about then dont try to put some random terms together and pretend like you do.
The fact that many blog and forum uses the same figures as APA charts doesn't mean anything, as they all delivered using the exact same method, which is took one detection range vs RCS value then extend it into a curve using radar equation. That kind of estimation doesn't take into account minimum detectable signal or the SNR standard for the initial value that manufacturer uses, let alone others factors like radar mode used.
APA cannot even get the T/R elements count of APG-81 and APG-77 correctly and you want us to take their estimate serious?
Image

APA estimate is 1000 elements for APG-81 while the real value is close to 1676 T/R modules
Image
Last edited by eloise on 22 Jul 2017, 03:27, edited 2 times in total.
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Unread post22 Jul 2017, 03:09

wewuzkangz wrote:???? But but Maks 2013 airshow they displayed it as GAN

Find me one photo of Phazotron said Fga-50 is a GaN radar

wewuzkangz wrote:why does it have same features like 3d AESA

All fighter fire control radar are 3D radar, even F-4 or Mig-21 radar are 3D radar, how else do you think they guide missiles to targets?


wewuzkangz wrote:863 degrees? Is this the best way to defend an inferior 120 or 140 degree azimuth radar aircrafts. Well too bad its not working their inferiority complexes wont go away. Here go ahead and try comparing any 5th gen we have to this nice image. https://sputniknews.com/infographics/20 ... 025671772/

Fancy graphic but full of crap as usual, as expected of sputnik
The N036 Byelka fire control system on PAK-FA consist of 3 different group of transmitter
The first is main fire control N036-1-01 radar at the front with 1552 T/R modules

Image

The second is side mounted radar, called N036B-1-01B with 358 T/R modules ( about 1/3 of APG-80 on F-16) the main purpose is finding ground target using SAR

Image

The third one is N036L-1-01 , an IFF and ECM system working at L band, N036L-1-01 only have a single row of elements so it cannot steer up or down
Image

There is no such thing as active Ka band or smart hull on the T-50
wewuzkangz wrote:plasma stealth I put that on google and everything had the keyword Russia on it no joke try it :D

He was being sarcastic to you


wewuzkangz wrote:but them knowing it as well ROFAR photons are a different story than radio waves in the EM detection field. No joke the T-50 works in most different radar bands, near infrared and UV.......Maybe Gamma and X-ray for next gen.

near infrared and UV ??? First you want a radar that work in visual light, now in infrared and UV ?
So not only ROFAR will have extremely limited range due to atmospheric attenuation
Image
, it will also make T-50 extremely visible on any kind of IRST or FLIR?
Last edited by eloise on 22 Jul 2017, 03:19, edited 2 times in total.
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