Page 3 of 4

Re: Very grim news for the Indian Air Force

Unread postPosted: 25 May 2020, 09:12
by Corsair1963
If, you had to defend the Western Sector of India against Pakistan. Who would prefer the brand new LCA MK IA vs the Mirage 2000-5 MK2???

Re: Very grim news for the Indian Air Force

Unread postPosted: 25 May 2020, 10:37
by disconnectedradical
Why are you so obsessed with everyone getting F-35? India is not getting F-35. We don’t let Turkey get it, and no reason to let India have it. They may be moving closer but they’re not strong enough allies to have this aircraft.

A year ago you still predicted that Turkey would get F-35, now that’s likely never going to happen unless something drastic changes which I doubt.

Re: Very grim news for the Indian Air Force

Unread postPosted: 25 May 2020, 11:12
by weasel1962
weasel1962 wrote:The Mk1A timeline is allowing time for the Uttam to complete development as an alternative to the 2052. There is also an indigeneous designation pod. Safran has also been pushing for ToT on the Kaveri project. I don't think there is any push to develop an alternative to the Cobham radome but generally local % content has significant potential to increase.


Bumping this up from the previous page.

What someone doesn't realise was that the Mirage 2000 went out of production that caused the whole MMRCA saga in the first instance. Its moot whether anyone wants the Mirage 2000.

Re: Very grim news for the Indian Air Force

Unread postPosted: 25 May 2020, 16:26
by mixelflick
Corsair1963 wrote:If, you had to defend the Western Sector of India against Pakistan. Who would prefer the brand new LCA MK IA vs the Mirage 2000-5 MK2???


You seem to be referring to the DCA mission. I wouldn't be so confident, as Tejas wouldn't be my first choice. In fact, I'd instead think the recently acquired (more modern, UPG variant) Mig-29's would be better suited to that task. In fact, that was the precise mission the Mig-29 was designed for. The UPG variant is similar to the Russian MiG-29SMT featuring an AESA radar, engine improvements and a more robust air to ground capability.


If on the other hand you're referring to the strike/interdiction role, then yes I'd agree with you: Tejas would certainly be a step up from the Mig-21's, 27's and Mirage 2000's currently assigned to that mission. It will likely have comparable range, carry a respectable warload, more modern systems and have a much lower RCS than 2 of those 3 (the Mig-21 already having a rather low RCS).

Re: Very grim news for the Indian Air Force

Unread postPosted: 25 May 2020, 16:31
by loke
Corsair1963 wrote:
loke wrote:More about the MMRCA:

NEW DELHI — The Indian Air Force is overhauling its plan to induct 114 medium-weight multirole fighters, with a senior service official saying the aircraft will be built in India with significant foreign technology transfer and no foreign procurement.
The effort will cost about $17 billion under the Make in India economic policy.

The official added that the RFI included the requirement for transfer of technology, including the transfer of design, development, manufacturing and repair expertise. It also included the requirement for the unilateral capability to integrate weapons, systems and sensors. The capability to upgrade the aircraft and a provision on exporting the aircraft is also part of the program. India is also seeking transfer of technology for stealth technology, active electronically scanned array radars, avionics, electronic warfare systems and engines.

When South Korea (which, unlike India, is a close US ally) teamed up with US companies to build their new fighter jet, SK was denied some critical technology that they explicitly asked for.... for instance, they ended up getting AESA technology from Saab...

Saab has worked on stealth technology, for instance through the Neuron program. The only thing listed above they cannot deliver on is the engine. However India will not get engine tech no matter what a/c they are buying. Saab is probably the only company that will be allowed to deliver substantial tech transfer on: stealth, AESA radar, avionics, and EW systems. The US companies will simply not be allowed to transfer that technology to India. Of course they can try to offer "dumbed down" versions that are sufficiently primitive to be allowed to be transferred, however, as demonstrated in SK, other options then becomes more attractive.

https://www.defensenews.com/global/asia ... t-program/



Apples and Oranges......

What?

Re: Very grim news for the Indian Air Force

Unread postPosted: 25 May 2020, 17:08
by milosh
@Corsair1963

Tejas carry more fuel then Gripen and is lighter if you compare it with F-16 block 50 fuel fraction difference is even higher, so I don't get how Tejas is short legged fighter? Only reason why you are pushing that narrative is because you are pissed off they don't buy F-35.

Also you purposely overlook how close targets in Pakistan are for IAF. Part of Pakistan which is close to India is most populated and most important, Sargodha is les then 200km from boarder and that is most distant city of green part of Pakistan.

With 500km combat radius Tejas doesn't have short legs against targets in Pakistan.

Btw IAF have fighters with longer range then Tejas for long distant targets so "small" Tejas range isn't problematic as you try to present.

If you look info from wiki for F-18 and compare it with Tejas you need to take in account F-18 ferry range on wiki isn't correct it is range with three fuel tanks. Tejas ferry range is similar but with two fuel tanks.

PLAAF stealths


From where J-20 will came to attack anything important in India? There aren't big airfields in Tibet and those which exist are easy pray for Indian missiles.

Chinese tanker fleet is joke in fact Indian tanker fleet is more capable.

Re: Very grim news for the Indian Air Force

Unread postPosted: 26 May 2020, 01:11
by weasel1962
The Mig-29 is equipped with duds i.e. R77. A missile that even the Indian auditor general criticized. Going into battle with just R-73s is not exactly a winning strategy. At least the Indians were willing to splurge on some Mica missiles.

Its a sign when the Indians are looking at arming their Sukhois with I-Derby-ERs which will equip the Tejas.

Re: Very grim news for the Indian Air Force

Unread postPosted: 26 May 2020, 01:29
by Corsair1963
milosh wrote:
Tejas carry more fuel then Gripen and is lighter if you compare it with F-16 block 50 fuel fraction difference is even higher, so I don't get how Tejas is short legged fighter? Only reason why you are pushing that narrative is because you are pissed off they don't buy F-35.

Also you purposely overlook how close targets in Pakistan are for IAF. Part of Pakistan which is close to India is most populated and most important, Sargodha is les then 200km from boarder and that is most distant city of green part of Pakistan.

With 500km combat radius Tejas doesn't have short legs against targets in Pakistan.


Sorry, the F-16 and Mirage 2000 have far better range and payload than the LCA. That is "easily" supportable.

As for being pissed off I am not. I am concern the Indian Air Force current plan. Is totally inadequate to counter the PLAAF/PAF in the future. Especially, after 2030...

Which, clearly you do not.... :?

Btw IAF have fighters with longer range then Tejas for long distant targets so "small" Tejas range isn't problematic as you try to present.


Absurd....are you aware that maneuvering and carrying external stores. Actually, consume "vast" amounts of fuel. This is even more critical with the small LCA.

If you look info from wiki for F-18 and compare it with Tejas you need to take in account F-18 ferry range on wiki isn't correct it is range with three fuel tanks. Tejas ferry range is similar but with two fuel tanks.


The Super Hornet (or even Hornet) would easily out perform the LCA is virtually any aspect of performance. Honestly, I doubt you could find a Indian Air Force Pilot. That would prefer to take the LCA (Tejas) into combat over 4th Generation Fighters like the F-16, Mirage 2000, or Hornet. If, given the option....(under real world combat conditions)


PLAAF stealths


From where J-20 will came to attack anything important in India? There aren't big airfields in Tibet and those which exist are easy pray for Indian missiles.

Chinese tanker fleet is joke in fact Indian tanker fleet is more capable.


China has a mixed fleet of Il-78's and H-6 Tankers. The exact numbers is closely guarded but very likely on the rise...

It's also worth noting that the Indian Air Force also uses the Il-78 as a tanker. So, not sure how you get that the IAF has superiority over the PLAAF in this regard......

Re: Very grim news for the Indian Air Force

Unread postPosted: 26 May 2020, 01:45
by Corsair1963
weasel1962 wrote:The Mig-29 is equipped with duds i.e. R77. A missile that even the Indian auditor general criticized. Going into battle with just R-73s is not exactly a winning strategy. At least the Indians were willing to splurge on some Mica missiles.

Its a sign when the Indians are looking at arming their Sukhois with I-Derby-ERs which will equip the Tejas.



It's easy to see why India continues to acquire more and more Western Military Hardware. (vs Russian)

Re: Very grim news for the Indian Air Force

Unread postPosted: 26 May 2020, 01:46
by weasel1962
Yes, when one focus on the facts

IAF: 6 IL-78MKI with serviceability record below
https://www.flightglobal.com/indian-rep ... 98.article
Currently on its 3rd attempt to procure new tankers.

PLAAF:
3 IL-78MKs - 65 ton fuel load
~20 H-6U / UDs - 18 ton fuel load, self declared number (link access at your own risk): http://english.chinamil.com.cn/news-cha ... 671974.htm
Y-20 Tankers going forward

Re: Very grim news for the Indian Air Force

Unread postPosted: 26 May 2020, 03:47
by Corsair1963
Simple fact is the Indian Air Force would be in a very tough position. If, it had to defend against the PLAAF. Let alone if the PAF was added. This will be very acute post 2030!

Time to look for solutions to the dilemma. Than some taking it as some king of personal attack toward India. Which, it is not...

Admitting you have a problem is the first step in fixing the problem............ :|

Re: Very grim news for the Indian Air Force

Unread postPosted: 26 May 2020, 05:28
by weasel1962
The Indians know full well their issues/constraints. From a budget angle, budgets have been going up. Using the last budget as an example, out of 4.71 lakh crore (US$65.9b using 71.5 exchange rate on Feb 1 when the budget was announced), they lose US$3b off the bat with the exchange rate going down to RS75+ per US$1 today.

Then 28.4% goes to defense pensions. Of the largest chunk - defense services that comprise 44.4% of the defense budget, 64.5% goes towards pay alone. The remaining to stores and other maintenance upkeep, barely enough to keep things running. Nevertheless a sizeable 24% goes towards capital expenditure of which the air force gets the biggest chunk at 38% , 62% of which (US$3.76b) goes into aircraft renewal/recapitalization. The bulk of which are used to pay past projects like Rafale (termed as "committed liabilities") for which there are reports that the budget is actually lower than committed liabilities. Once the past commitments are cleared, then that amount may afford roughly 1 squadron of fighters a year currently earmarked for the Tejas up to 2029.

Asking India to reduce pensions is like asking Americans to give up social security. Not going to happen. Reduce army size? Sure, just after they finish expanding with a new mountain strike corp. Increase budgets? They are already doing that as fast as they can. They don't have a sugar daddy subsidizing fighter production like what the Chinese do for the Pakistanis. At least with the Tejas (unlike the Rafale), a chunk of the monies flows back into the economy.

Re: Very grim news for the Indian Air Force

Unread postPosted: 26 May 2020, 07:13
by Corsair1963
weasel1962 wrote:The Indians know full well their issues/constraints. From a budget angle, budgets have been going up. Using the last budget as an example, out of 4.71 lakh crore (US$65.9b using 71.5 exchange rate on Feb 1 when the budget was announced), they lose US$3b off the bat with the exchange rate going down to RS75+ per US$1 today.

Then 28.4% goes to defense pensions. Of the largest chunk - defense services that comprise 44.4% of the defense budget, 64.5% goes towards pay alone. The remaining to stores and other maintenance upkeep, barely enough to keep things running. Nevertheless a sizeable 24% goes towards capital expenditure of which the air force gets the biggest chunk at 38% , 62% of which (US$3.76b) goes into aircraft renewal/recapitalization. The bulk of which are used to pay past projects like Rafale (termed as "committed liabilities") for which there are reports that the budget is actually lower than committed liabilities. Once the past commitments are cleared, then that amount may afford roughly 1 squadron of fighters a year currently earmarked for the Tejas up to 2029.

Asking India to reduce pensions is like asking Americans to give up social security. Not going to happen. Reduce army size? Sure, just after they finish expanding with a new mountain strike corp. Increase budgets? They are already doing that as fast as they can. They don't have a sugar daddy subsidizing fighter production like what the Chinese do for the Pakistanis. At least with the Tejas (unlike the Rafale), a chunk of the monies flows back into the economy.


If, India knows full well their issues/constraints as you say. Then it's funny they don't use "what" resources they do have far more wisely???

We aren't talking about developing and building Washing Machines for the masses here! We're talking about the defense of the country. Now they can build new Mig-29's for all I care. Yet, the end result won't be pretty........


As China isn't sitting still and neither is Pakistan.

Hell, by 2030 I doubt the Indian Air Force would "even" rank in the Top Ten. Especially, if they continue with the current plan....(as a matter of fact I know they wouldn't)

Re: Very grim news for the Indian Air Force

Unread postPosted: 26 May 2020, 12:01
by madrat
You are going to see a hard turn in global politics that will grow countries that pivot away from China. India's economy will benefit from it. Foxconn (Taiwam-based) seems to believe in them. China's mainland is getting difficult to work with, especially after further Coronavirus scandals come to light. The IAF is not in any sense in a retreat.

Re: Very grim news for the Indian Air Force

Unread postPosted: 26 May 2020, 17:11
by milosh
Problem with Chinese IL-78 is operational status, because they aren't brand new as Indian tankers but ones build in 1980s.

H-6 fleet status is also questionable for example in Indian Defence Review (Jan-Mar 2019) Vol 34.1 they mentioned only 10 are operational and weak tanker fleet is biggest problem for PLAAF to conduct meningful operations against India.

Y-20 tanker? Very likely but we need to see first prototype, then they need to build nice number of them to have decent tanker fleet. IAF also plan to buy more tankers, six IL-78 I think.