Very grim news for the Indian Air Force

Unread postPosted: 18 May 2020, 03:36
by Corsair1963
India seeks local warplanes as overseas purchase plan stalls India plans to switch to locally-made fighter jets, two years after asking global companies to submit proposals to supply 114 combat aircraft

By Sudhi Ranjan Sen

India plans to switch to locally-made fighter jets, two years after asking global companies to submit proposals to supply 114 combat aircraft in the world’s biggest warplane contract. The country’s air force is finalizing plans to i...


https://www.deccanherald.com/business/i ... Qn3aj61Gu8


CHINA AND PAKISTAN MUST BE DANCING IN THE STREET RIGHT ABOUT NOW............. :shock:

Re: Very grim news for the Indian Air Force

Unread postPosted: 18 May 2020, 14:42
by mixelflick
Not necessarily.... IF the buy affords them to have cash left over elsewhere.

While less capable than most foreign jets being evaluated, the Tejas is said to have its strengths. Low observable airframe, ease of maintenance, reliable engine and high sortie rate. If they can deliver that economically, it'll go a long way toward giving them a nice medium strike platform, with some limited self defence capabilities and most importantly - numbers. Where the IAF is woefully under-served is in having even a rudimentary stealth capability.

I think the Indians know J-20's vs. SU-30MKI's (however much they're upgraded), isn't going to end well. Further, China is fielding at least one (maybe 2) stealth fighters, and is known to be working on 2 stealth bombers. Add to that fact they're working with PAK on co-developing its own medium fighters, and... that's a problem. To this, India has.... no answer. That's the much bigger problem, IMO...

Re: Very grim news for the Indian Air Force

Unread postPosted: 18 May 2020, 18:08
by milosh
Corsair1963 wrote:India seeks local warplanes as overseas purchase plan stalls India plans to switch to locally-made fighter jets, two years after asking global companies to submit proposals to supply 114 combat aircraft

By Sudhi Ranjan Sen

India plans to switch to locally-made fighter jets, two years after asking global companies to submit proposals to supply 114 combat aircraft in the world’s biggest warplane contract. The country’s air force is finalizing plans to i...


https://www.deccanherald.com/business/i ... Qn3aj61Gu8


CHINA AND PAKISTAN MUST BE DANCING IN THE STREET RIGHT ABOUT NOW............. :shock:



MMCA was 4gen fighter competiton, so buying noticeable more Tejas then Eurofighter, S.Hornet, MiG-35, Viper or Gripen isn't bad decision at all. In fact if Tejas wasn't so problematic MMCA wouldn't happen at all.

There is one more important reason to get as many Tejas. Airfields. IAF don't have Rafales and Su-30 close to Pakistan because those fighters logistical demands aren't small. Both are quite expensive so HAS is must have and both need decent runaway.

MiG-29 and Tejas on other hand are design to have low logistic demand so they can be operated from rough FOB.

Re: Very grim news for the Indian Air Force

Unread postPosted: 18 May 2020, 23:25
by ovod
milosh wrote:
MiG-29 and Tejas on other hand are design to have low logistic demand so they can be operated from rough FOB.


MiG-29 has a high logistical demand, maybe even higher than Rafale. And who says that aircraft based near the border with Pakistan need to operate from rough airfields?

Re: Very grim news for the Indian Air Force

Unread postPosted: 18 May 2020, 23:40
by Corsair1963
milosh wrote:

MMCA was 4gen fighter competiton, so buying noticeable more Tejas then Eurofighter, S.Hornet, MiG-35, Viper or Gripen isn't bad decision at all. In fact if Tejas wasn't so problematic MMCA wouldn't happen at all.

There is one more important reason to get as many Tejas. Airfields. IAF don't have Rafales and Su-30 close to Pakistan because those fighters logistical demands aren't small. Both are quite expensive so HAS is must have and both need decent runaway.

MiG-29 and Tejas on other hand are design to have low logistic demand so they can be operated from rough FOB.


The current LCA MK IA is lacking in range / performance compare to most existing 4/4.5 Generation Fighters. While, the MK II / MWF is nothing but a pipe dream. As it would require a major redesign and take another 20 years to develop, test, and get into service. You really think the IAF can wait until 2040 for the LCA MK II???

Honestly, even buying the MMRCA 2.0 is questionable. As it will never match future Chinese J-20's and/or J-31's. :shock:

Time the Indian Leadership got serious and came up with a viable plan.


"IMHO"

Re: Very grim news for the Indian Air Force

Unread postPosted: 18 May 2020, 23:43
by Corsair1963
ovod wrote:
milosh wrote:
MiG-29 and Tejas on other hand are design to have low logistic demand so they can be operated from rough FOB.


MiG-29 has a high logistical demand, maybe even higher than Rafale. And who says that aircraft based near the border with Pakistan need to operate from rough airfields?



What happens if China provides Pakistan with J-20's and/or J-31's around 2030. That or Pakistan allows China to base PLAAF Stealth Fighters on Pakistani Airfields???

:|

Re: Very grim news for the Indian Air Force

Unread postPosted: 18 May 2020, 23:46
by Corsair1963
It's very plausible that the PAF (Pakistani Air Force) could have a mix of say F-16's, JF-17's and J-31's post 2030. :|

Re: Very grim news for the Indian Air Force

Unread postPosted: 19 May 2020, 01:45
by XanderCrews
Looks like Tejas out-Gripened the Gripen. :mrgreen: maybe the performance isn't as good, but you know what? its "good enough", and its cheaper, uses an F414 and is certainly "made in india"


Gripen NG loses another key sales opportunity

Re: Very grim news for the Indian Air Force

Unread postPosted: 19 May 2020, 02:20
by Corsair1963
XanderCrews wrote:Looks like Tejas out-Gripened the Gripen. :mrgreen: maybe the performance isn't as good, but you know what? its "good enough", and its cheaper, uses an F414 and is certainly "made in india"


Gripen NG loses another key sales opportunity



Your missing the point. If, you think either (LCA or Gripen) will be good enough.... :?

Re: Very grim news for the Indian Air Force

Unread postPosted: 19 May 2020, 04:30
by XanderCrews
Corsair1963 wrote:
XanderCrews wrote:Looks like Tejas out-Gripened the Gripen. :mrgreen: maybe the performance isn't as good, but you know what? its "good enough", and its cheaper, uses an F414 and is certainly "made in india"


Gripen NG loses another key sales opportunity



Your missing the point. If, you think either (LCA or Gripen) will be good enough.... :?



Not saying it Is I'm saying "good enough" is the rhetorical echo when it comes to fans of crappy light fighters

Re: Very grim news for the Indian Air Force

Unread postPosted: 19 May 2020, 06:58
by Corsair1963
XanderCrews wrote:

Not saying it Is I'm saying "good enough" is the rhetorical echo when it comes to fans of crappy light fighters



Honestly, not a fan a small lightweight fighters either....


Regardless, making a case for any 4th Generation Fighter (India) vs a nation with 5th Generation Fighters. (China) Is like saying my Flag Football Team. Could beat the New England Patriots....

Re: Very grim news for the Indian Air Force

Unread postPosted: 19 May 2020, 13:04
by sferrin
Grim today, perhaps. Better in the long run. They need to learn how to build their own aircraft.

Re: Very grim news for the Indian Air Force

Unread postPosted: 19 May 2020, 16:23
by disconnectedradical
Corsair1963 wrote:
XanderCrews wrote:

Not saying it Is I'm saying "good enough" is the rhetorical echo when it comes to fans of crappy light fighters



Honestly, not a fan a small lightweight fighters either....


Regardless, making a case for any 4th Generation Fighter (India) vs a nation with 5th Generation Fighters. (China) Is like saying my Flag Football Team. Could beat the New England Patriots....


What is India supposed to do then? Sit and do nothing? They shouldn't be getting F-35s any time soon, not a close enough ally for that.

Re: Very grim news for the Indian Air Force

Unread postPosted: 19 May 2020, 18:37
by milosh
ovod wrote:
milosh wrote:
MiG-29 and Tejas on other hand are design to have low logistic demand so they can be operated from rough FOB.


MiG-29 has a high logistical demand, maybe even higher than Rafale. And who says that aircraft based near the border with Pakistan need to operate from rough airfields?


Rafale is noticeable better in service life but that isn't same as logistic demand for FOB (forward operating base).

You ask why it need to operate from rough air stips? Because there isn't many normal air strips near Kashmir so what you expect Pakistan will attack first? Them. So IAF will be force to use damaged air strips or FOB with not so quality air strips.

IAF doesn't have Su-30 nor Rafale near Kashmir for that reason. I don't think they have any air field with HAS in that region.

@Corsair1963

MMCA didn't had range requirement at all. MMCA happened only because Tejas development slowed down. That is why you have so many different fighters becuase IAF didn't really knew what it want, M2000 would probable be best backup option but France was in process of killing M2000 to boost Rafale

With Tejas Mk1 is more less done there isn't need for MMCA anymore.

Stealth fighter isn't important as long as Pakistan don't decide to get one. J-31 isn't no where near complition and last news doesn't sound good at all for J-31, it look like Shenyang will start work on new fighter or they will heavily modified J-31. Pakistan getting J-20 isn't realistic at all.

Re: Very grim news for the Indian Air Force

Unread postPosted: 20 May 2020, 01:47
by Corsair1963
milosh wrote:
@Corsair1963

MMCA didn't had range requirement at all. MMCA happened only because Tejas development slowed down. That is why you have so many different fighters becuase IAF didn't really knew what it want, M2000 would probable be best backup option but France was in process of killing M2000 to boost Rafale

With Tejas Mk1 is more less done there isn't need for MMCA anymore.

Stealth fighter isn't important as long as Pakistan don't decide to get one. J-31 isn't no where near complition and last news doesn't sound good at all for J-31, it look like Shenyang will start work on new fighter or they will heavily modified J-31. Pakistan getting J-20 isn't realistic at all.


Laughable the LCA like most small fighters offers poor payload vs range. As a matter of fact the LCA is basically just a "point defense fighter". Which, offers very little in overall capability. Hell, most 4th Generation Fighters are more than a match for the LCA. (MK I or MK IA) That is just the cold hard truth....

As for the J-31 the development is said to be progressing well and just a few years off from entering service. My guess is the odds of Pakistan acquiring are likely good. As it should be affordable and China alone has considerable reason to provide at least a limited number to Pakistan. Which, would tie up Indian Defenses on two FRONTS.

This is the whole conundrum for India. As post 2030 she likely will have to face opposing Stealth Fighters on two fronts. Which, she has had a very contentious relationship with since the founding of the country.

Yet, the Indian Air Force has no plan to field a Stealth Fighter of her own in the foreseeable future! (next 20 years) :shock:

Re: Very grim news for the Indian Air Force

Unread postPosted: 20 May 2020, 02:27
by weasel1962
Range is less important with aerial refuel and that capability is achieved from FOC Mk 1 onwards.

The key deficiency is the inability to internalize the Jammer due to space constraints which won't be resolved until Mk 2. That means the Jammer will need to take up a hardpoint. Add that 2 tanks will need to be carried for decent radius and the 2 outboard hardpoints can carry only R-73s. That leaves only 3 for munitions. For counter air missions, that's less of an issue as Tejas variants from FOC Mk1 onwards would carry 2 Derby with the SPJ. However for ground attack, it will need a designation pod so its a choice of having both designation pod + SPJ and only 1 munition or carry 2 munition without the SPJ or rely on tankers/accept reduced range by carrying only 1 tank.

Considering its replacing Mig-21s, the above isn't an issue. The LCA is an upgrade to the Mig-21 and has to handle only F-16s/JF-17s on its western front. Most of the Mig-21 airbases are all near the border i.e. no need significant range. Srinagar where the 2nd sqn will be based is only 150km from Islamabad. Well within combat radius. With the resolution of the teething issues, I can understand why the IAF went with the Tejas.

Re: Very grim news for the Indian Air Force

Unread postPosted: 20 May 2020, 02:42
by Corsair1963
weasel1962 wrote:Range is less important with aerial refuel and that capability is achieved from FOC Mk 1 onwards.

The key deficiency is the inability to internalize the Jammer due to space constraints which won't be resolved until Mk 2. That means the Jammer will need to take up a hardpoint. Add that 2 tanks will need to be carried for decent radius and the 2 outboard hardpoints can carry only R-73s. That leaves only 3 for munitions. For counter air missions, that's less of an issue as Tejas variants from FOC Mk1 onwards would carry 2 Derby with the SPJ. However for ground attack, it will need a designation pod so its a choice of having both designation pod + SPJ and only 1 munition or carry 2 munition without the SPJ or rely on tankers/accept reduced range by carrying only 1 tank.

Considering its replacing Mig-21s, the above isn't an issue. The LCA is an upgrade to the Mig-21 and has to handle only F-16s/JF-17s on its western front. Most of the Mig-21 airbases are all near the border i.e. no need significant range. Srinagar where the 2nd sqn will be based is only 150km from Islamabad. Well within combat radius. With the resolution of the teething issues, I can understand why the IAF went with the Tejas.



First, "range" is always an issue as is the limited number of weapons and payload the aircraft can carry. Plus, being close to the boarder just makes the LCA more vulnerable to counter attacks. (or even first strikes)

Simple fact is most of the leading 4th Generation Fighters. Would offer considerably more performance and payload. So, again what's the advantage of the LCA???


BTW I don't see the LCA MK I or MK IA being much of a threat to Pakistani JF-17's or F-16C's either....(Air to Air)

Re: Very grim news for the Indian Air Force

Unread postPosted: 20 May 2020, 15:25
by milosh
Corsair1963 wrote:Laughable the LCA like most small fighters offers poor payload vs range. As a matter of fact the LCA is basically just a "point defense fighter". Which, offers very little in overall capability. Hell, most 4th Generation Fighters are more than a match for the LCA. (MK I or MK IA) That is just the cold hard truth....


Tejas/MMCA need to replace MiG-21, MiG-27 and Jaguars. Those planes don't have some respectible range. So range argument isn't so important, but if we talk about range while Tejas is small it carry nice amount of fuel for its size (big composite delta wing), Tejas Mk1 carry ~ 2500kg of fuel, F-16:
https://www.globalsecurity.org/military ... -specs.htm

So I really don't see Tejas Mk1 is so bad in range/fuel.

So with finished Tejas Mk1 there isn't really need for MMCA. What is more important to India is to invest in ACMA by joining some other 5/6gen program which fit in ACMA requirement. UK offered India to join in Tempest program which would be big boost for Tempest if they get rising economical super power to join it, with that and rich Arab states Tempest future look very interesting:
https://www.bloomberg.com/professional/ ... ut-almost/

About J-31, let we see it finished then we can talked about Pakistan buying one. Btw you seem didn't read news about Shenyang is working on new fighter, this could mean they are giving up on J-31 or J-31 need heavy redesign, one of engineer said it could weight lot more then what they planned (3tons I think) and some chinese sources mentioned 3D print structures of airframe aren't good as it was expected, 3D printed structures would reduce cost and weight of airframe a lot if they work:
https://www.3ders.org/articles/20130529 ... onent.html

Re: Very grim news for the Indian Air Force

Unread postPosted: 21 May 2020, 01:15
by weasel1962
Its a question of force size. The total buy for Mk1/1A is only 123 (20 IOC, 20 FOC, 83 1A) up to 2029. That affords 6 Tejas sqn + 2 rafale sqn. AMCA schedule has been reported to achieve 1st flight by 2024/2025 or 2032 depending on who one talks to. Note the earlier date may be even before Tejas Mk 2 appears so everything is taken with a nice dose of salt. Even at the earliest 1st flight, this still means AMCA production will only start ~2028/2029 or later.

P.s. Noted that the Tejas does include a separate sensor hardpoint so that mitigates what I mentioned earlier about the external Jammer required.

Tejas weapons station.png


1200litre Drop tank = 2100 lbs / 317 gal fuel

Re: Very grim news for the Indian Air Force

Unread postPosted: 21 May 2020, 03:42
by Corsair1963
milosh wrote:
Tejas/MMCA need to replace MiG-21, MiG-27 and Jaguars. Those planes don't have some respectible range. So range argument isn't so important, but if we talk about range while Tejas is small it carry nice amount of fuel for its size (big composite delta wing), Tejas Mk1 carry ~ 2500kg of fuel, F-16:
https://www.globalsecurity.org/military ... -specs.htm

So I really don't see Tejas Mk1 is so bad in range/fuel.


Range is critically important and you don't want to judge the LCA vs the Mig-21, Mig-27, and Jaguar! You want to judge them against the threat....


So with finished Tejas Mk1 there isn't really need for MMCA. What is more important to India is to invest in ACMA by joining some other 5/6gen program which fit in ACMA requirement. UK offered India to join in Tempest program which would be big boost for Tempest if they get rising economical super power to join it, with that and rich Arab states Tempest future look very interesting:
https://www.bloomberg.com/professional/ ... ut-almost/


What some don't seem to get??? Is the AMCA is a good 20 years off at best. In addition it is a 5th Generation Design. Which, means by time it arrives. Other nations will be close to fielding "6th Generation Fighters".

So, looks like India is repeating the LCA mistake all over again.... :?

About J-31, let we see it finished then we can talked about Pakistan buying one. Btw you seem didn't read news about Shenyang is working on new fighter, this could mean they are giving up on J-31 or J-31 need heavy redesign, one of engineer said it could weight lot more then what they planned (3tons I think) and some chinese sources mentioned 3D print structures of airframe aren't good as it was expected, 3D printed structures would reduce cost and weight of airframe a lot if they work:
https://www.3ders.org/articles/20130529 ... onent.html


The J-31 has already been redesigned and at least appears to be progressing well. Regardless, real point comes down to Pakistan getting a Stealth Fighter. Which, is very likely at some stage. Why??? Because one it wants one and two China has every reason to provide one!

What it all really comes down too! Is India will very likely find opposing Stealth Fighters on not one but two fronts post 2030. While, India will have "none" under the current plan...

On top of that much of her fleet of fighters. Will be old and obsolete (Mig-29's, Mirage 2000's, etc.)....while many of her newer ones (LCA) will be small in size and limited in capability.

Re: Very grim news for the Indian Air Force

Unread postPosted: 21 May 2020, 04:40
by disconnectedradical
Corsair1963 wrote:The J-31 has already been redesigned and at least appears to be progressing well. Regardless, real point comes down to Pakistan getting a Stealth Fighter. Which, is very likely at some stage. Why??? Because one it wants one and two China has every reason to provide one!

What it all really comes down too! Is India will very likely find opposing Stealth Fighters on not one but two fronts post 2030. While, India will have "none" under the current plan...

On top of that much of her fleet of fighters. Will be old and obsolete (Mig-29's, Mirage 2000's, etc.)....while many of her newer ones (LCA) will be small in size and limited in capability.


So what is India supposed to do then? Do nothing? Just give up?

Re: Very grim news for the Indian Air Force

Unread postPosted: 21 May 2020, 07:12
by Corsair1963
disconnectedradical wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:The J-31 has already been redesigned and at least appears to be progressing well. Regardless, real point comes down to Pakistan getting a Stealth Fighter. Which, is very likely at some stage. Why??? Because one it wants one and two China has every reason to provide one!

What it all really comes down too! Is India will very likely find opposing Stealth Fighters on not one but two fronts post 2030. While, India will have "none" under the current plan...

On top of that much of her fleet of fighters. Will be old and obsolete (Mig-29's, Mirage 2000's, etc.)....while many of her newer ones (LCA) will be small in size and limited in capability.


So what is India supposed to do then? Do nothing? Just give up?


Surely, not but the point here is the current plan is not viable. If, she is going to put up a credible defense against China and Pakistan thru the 2030's and 2040's.

She needs a good mix of "capable" 4th and 5th Generation Fighters short-term. The former could be upgrade second hand examples or new aircraft. While, the latter has to be at least a modest number of F-35's. (only option)

Now long term she needs to join a future 6th Generation Fighter Program. (Tempest, FCA, PCA, etc.)


"IMHO"

Re: Very grim news for the Indian Air Force

Unread postPosted: 21 May 2020, 17:48
by milosh
Corsair1963 wrote:Range is critically important and you don't want to judge the LCA vs the Mig-21, Mig-27, and Jaguar! You want to judge them against the threat....


What threat? Pakistan? Range is more then enough. To attack expensive targets in China even Su-34/35 or F-35 would lack range.

LCA was designed to replace planes which lack range and LCA in fact have very good range, if you check what I posted its internal fuel fraction very good, you see LCA as smallish fighter so you think it doesn't have range, what you don't see is big delta wing:
https://www.deccanherald.com/sites/dh/f ... k=9HY1z1Wf

So you can argue it lack speed or agility but range :? that is most pointless critic of all about LCA.
Corsair1963 wrote:What some don't seem to get??? Is the AMCA is a good 20 years off at best. In addition it is a 5th Generation Design. Which, means by time it arrives. Other nations will be close to fielding "6th Generation Fighters".


Instead of ACMA they will probable go with Tempest. Buying LCA instead MMCA fighters will allow noticable more funds for that program.

Corsair1963 wrote:The J-31 has already been redesigned and at least appears to be progressing well. Regardless, real point comes down to Pakistan getting a Stealth Fighter. Which, is very likely at some stage. Why??? Because one it wants one and two China has every reason to provide one!


https://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1173418.shtml

This is from Dec 2019. Why Shenyang will start work on new fighter if J-31 is progressing well?

Corsair1963 wrote:What it all really comes down too! Is India will very likely find opposing Stealth Fighters on not one but two fronts post 2030. While, India will have "none" under the current plan...


Only stealth which China could have in late 2020s which can endanger India is stealth bomber. Fighters don't have range to attack India especially deeper in India.

Corsair1963 wrote:On top of that much of her fleet of fighters. Will be old and obsolete (Mig-29's, Mirage 2000's, etc.)....while many of her newer ones (LCA) will be small in size and limited in capability.


LCA have better range then MiG-29 and maybe even M2000 (similar FF but LCA jet engine is more efficient), it is much smaller target on radar then those two.

Its main competitor JF-17 while similar size is bigger on radar because it is mostly metal plane btw Pak F-16 are also noticable bigger on radar.

LCA with Meteors will be very dangerous small fighter.

Re: Very grim news for the Indian Air Force

Unread postPosted: 22 May 2020, 00:55
by weasel1962
JF-17 use of composites increases with the block i.e. Blk 2 uses more, whilst Blk 3 probably will use the most so far. Probably a reflection of composite production in China which presumably is the source of the material.

Re: Very grim news for the Indian Air Force

Unread postPosted: 23 May 2020, 10:30
by milosh
weasel1962 wrote:JF-17 use of composites increases with the block i.e. Blk 2 uses more, whilst Blk 3 probably will use the most so far. Probably a reflection of composite production in China which presumably is the source of the material.


Problem with JF-17 is lack of data, for LCA we have official numbers about composites, I think 60% of plane is composite (probable skin not weight) which is excellent for RCS when combine with RAM.

Re: Very grim news for the Indian Air Force

Unread postPosted: 23 May 2020, 10:36
by loke
IAF chief contradicts CDS Rawat, says plan is to buy 114 foreign fighters besides LCA Tejas


https://theprint.in/defence/iaf-chief-c ... as/424468/

So it seems the IAF is still pushing for the MMRCA.

Re: Very grim news for the Indian Air Force

Unread postPosted: 23 May 2020, 10:53
by loke
More about the MMRCA:

NEW DELHI — The Indian Air Force is overhauling its plan to induct 114 medium-weight multirole fighters, with a senior service official saying the aircraft will be built in India with significant foreign technology transfer and no foreign procurement.
The effort will cost about $17 billion under the Make in India economic policy.

The official added that the RFI included the requirement for transfer of technology, including the transfer of design, development, manufacturing and repair expertise. It also included the requirement for the unilateral capability to integrate weapons, systems and sensors. The capability to upgrade the aircraft and a provision on exporting the aircraft is also part of the program. India is also seeking transfer of technology for stealth technology, active electronically scanned array radars, avionics, electronic warfare systems and engines.

When South Korea (which, unlike India, is a close US ally) teamed up with US companies to build their new fighter jet, SK was denied some critical technology that they explicitly asked for.... for instance, they ended up getting AESA technology from Saab...

Saab has worked on stealth technology, for instance through the Neuron program. The only thing listed above they cannot deliver on is the engine. However India will not get engine tech no matter what a/c they are buying. Saab is probably the only company that will be allowed to deliver substantial tech transfer on: stealth, AESA radar, avionics, and EW systems. The US companies will simply not be allowed to transfer that technology to India. Of course they can try to offer "dumbed down" versions that are sufficiently primitive to be allowed to be transferred, however, as demonstrated in SK, other options then becomes more attractive.

https://www.defensenews.com/global/asia ... t-program/

Re: Very grim news for the Indian Air Force

Unread postPosted: 25 May 2020, 04:09
by Corsair1963
milosh wrote:
What threat? Pakistan? Range is more then enough. To attack expensive targets in China even Su-34/35 or F-35 would lack range.

LCA was designed to replace planes which lack range and LCA in fact have very good range, if you check what I posted its internal fuel fraction very good, you see LCA as smallish fighter so you think it doesn't have range, what you don't see is big delta wing:
https://www.deccanherald.com/sites/dh/f ... k=9HY1z1Wf


LOL Range is more than enough...(ABSURD) Range is not only to and from target. It's also time over target. In addition the current range of the LCA is even less than say the F/A-18 Hornet. Which, is hardly stellar to begin with . Plus, in flight refueling is limited in the case of the LCA....


Instead of ACMA they will probable go with Tempest. Buying LCA instead MMCA fighters will allow noticable more funds for that program.


First, I've seen nothing to suggest India will join the Tempest Program. Yet, she needs to do something and soon! (both short and long term) As the current plan is not a viable option. If, India has any hope of countering the PAF/PLAAF post 2030.


Only stealth which China could have in late 2020s which can endanger India is stealth bomber. Fighters don't have range to attack India especially deeper in India.


Laughable so a few hundred Stealth Fighters (both J-20's and J-30's) are no threat to India! Hell, the US may as well stop production of the F-35....
:doh:



LCA have better range then MiG-29 and maybe even M2000 (similar FF but LCA jet engine is more efficient), it is much smaller target on radar then those two.

Its main competitor JF-17 while similar size is bigger on radar because it is mostly metal plane btw Pak F-16 are also noticable bigger on radar.

LCA with Meteors will be very dangerous small fighter.


Sorry, while the LCA maybe a slight improvement over older 4th Generation Fighter types in certain aspects. It's still lacking in many respects. Regardless, how the LCA compares to the Mig-21, Mig-29, or even Mirage 2000 is beside the point...

Honestly, I doubt the PAF and PLAAF see the little LCA as much of a threat...(small war load, limited presence, non-stealthy)


As for the JF-17 combined with the F-16 and likely the J-31 post 2030. I would consider it to be a big threat. Especially, if India also has to worry about the PLAAF and PLAN.

It's worth noting that Pakistan continues to upgrade the JF-17. Especially, in respect to AESA Radars and BVR Missiles.

Re: Very grim news for the Indian Air Force

Unread postPosted: 25 May 2020, 04:11
by Corsair1963
loke wrote:More about the MMRCA:

NEW DELHI — The Indian Air Force is overhauling its plan to induct 114 medium-weight multirole fighters, with a senior service official saying the aircraft will be built in India with significant foreign technology transfer and no foreign procurement.
The effort will cost about $17 billion under the Make in India economic policy.

The official added that the RFI included the requirement for transfer of technology, including the transfer of design, development, manufacturing and repair expertise. It also included the requirement for the unilateral capability to integrate weapons, systems and sensors. The capability to upgrade the aircraft and a provision on exporting the aircraft is also part of the program. India is also seeking transfer of technology for stealth technology, active electronically scanned array radars, avionics, electronic warfare systems and engines.

When South Korea (which, unlike India, is a close US ally) teamed up with US companies to build their new fighter jet, SK was denied some critical technology that they explicitly asked for.... for instance, they ended up getting AESA technology from Saab...

Saab has worked on stealth technology, for instance through the Neuron program. The only thing listed above they cannot deliver on is the engine. However India will not get engine tech no matter what a/c they are buying. Saab is probably the only company that will be allowed to deliver substantial tech transfer on: stealth, AESA radar, avionics, and EW systems. The US companies will simply not be allowed to transfer that technology to India. Of course they can try to offer "dumbed down" versions that are sufficiently primitive to be allowed to be transferred, however, as demonstrated in SK, other options then becomes more attractive.

https://www.defensenews.com/global/asia ... t-program/



Apples and Oranges......

Re: Very grim news for the Indian Air Force

Unread postPosted: 25 May 2020, 06:57
by weasel1962
The Mk1A timeline is allowing time for the Uttam to complete development as an alternative to the 2052. There is also an indigeneous designation pod. Safran has also been pushing for ToT on the Kaveri project. I don't think there is any push to develop an alternative to the Cobham radome but generally local % content has significant potential to increase.

Re: Very grim news for the Indian Air Force

Unread postPosted: 25 May 2020, 09:12
by Corsair1963
If, you had to defend the Western Sector of India against Pakistan. Who would prefer the brand new LCA MK IA vs the Mirage 2000-5 MK2???

Re: Very grim news for the Indian Air Force

Unread postPosted: 25 May 2020, 10:37
by disconnectedradical
Why are you so obsessed with everyone getting F-35? India is not getting F-35. We don’t let Turkey get it, and no reason to let India have it. They may be moving closer but they’re not strong enough allies to have this aircraft.

A year ago you still predicted that Turkey would get F-35, now that’s likely never going to happen unless something drastic changes which I doubt.

Re: Very grim news for the Indian Air Force

Unread postPosted: 25 May 2020, 11:12
by weasel1962
weasel1962 wrote:The Mk1A timeline is allowing time for the Uttam to complete development as an alternative to the 2052. There is also an indigeneous designation pod. Safran has also been pushing for ToT on the Kaveri project. I don't think there is any push to develop an alternative to the Cobham radome but generally local % content has significant potential to increase.


Bumping this up from the previous page.

What someone doesn't realise was that the Mirage 2000 went out of production that caused the whole MMRCA saga in the first instance. Its moot whether anyone wants the Mirage 2000.

Re: Very grim news for the Indian Air Force

Unread postPosted: 25 May 2020, 16:26
by mixelflick
Corsair1963 wrote:If, you had to defend the Western Sector of India against Pakistan. Who would prefer the brand new LCA MK IA vs the Mirage 2000-5 MK2???


You seem to be referring to the DCA mission. I wouldn't be so confident, as Tejas wouldn't be my first choice. In fact, I'd instead think the recently acquired (more modern, UPG variant) Mig-29's would be better suited to that task. In fact, that was the precise mission the Mig-29 was designed for. The UPG variant is similar to the Russian MiG-29SMT featuring an AESA radar, engine improvements and a more robust air to ground capability.


If on the other hand you're referring to the strike/interdiction role, then yes I'd agree with you: Tejas would certainly be a step up from the Mig-21's, 27's and Mirage 2000's currently assigned to that mission. It will likely have comparable range, carry a respectable warload, more modern systems and have a much lower RCS than 2 of those 3 (the Mig-21 already having a rather low RCS).

Re: Very grim news for the Indian Air Force

Unread postPosted: 25 May 2020, 16:31
by loke
Corsair1963 wrote:
loke wrote:More about the MMRCA:

NEW DELHI — The Indian Air Force is overhauling its plan to induct 114 medium-weight multirole fighters, with a senior service official saying the aircraft will be built in India with significant foreign technology transfer and no foreign procurement.
The effort will cost about $17 billion under the Make in India economic policy.

The official added that the RFI included the requirement for transfer of technology, including the transfer of design, development, manufacturing and repair expertise. It also included the requirement for the unilateral capability to integrate weapons, systems and sensors. The capability to upgrade the aircraft and a provision on exporting the aircraft is also part of the program. India is also seeking transfer of technology for stealth technology, active electronically scanned array radars, avionics, electronic warfare systems and engines.

When South Korea (which, unlike India, is a close US ally) teamed up with US companies to build their new fighter jet, SK was denied some critical technology that they explicitly asked for.... for instance, they ended up getting AESA technology from Saab...

Saab has worked on stealth technology, for instance through the Neuron program. The only thing listed above they cannot deliver on is the engine. However India will not get engine tech no matter what a/c they are buying. Saab is probably the only company that will be allowed to deliver substantial tech transfer on: stealth, AESA radar, avionics, and EW systems. The US companies will simply not be allowed to transfer that technology to India. Of course they can try to offer "dumbed down" versions that are sufficiently primitive to be allowed to be transferred, however, as demonstrated in SK, other options then becomes more attractive.

https://www.defensenews.com/global/asia ... t-program/



Apples and Oranges......

What?

Re: Very grim news for the Indian Air Force

Unread postPosted: 25 May 2020, 17:08
by milosh
@Corsair1963

Tejas carry more fuel then Gripen and is lighter if you compare it with F-16 block 50 fuel fraction difference is even higher, so I don't get how Tejas is short legged fighter? Only reason why you are pushing that narrative is because you are pissed off they don't buy F-35.

Also you purposely overlook how close targets in Pakistan are for IAF. Part of Pakistan which is close to India is most populated and most important, Sargodha is les then 200km from boarder and that is most distant city of green part of Pakistan.

With 500km combat radius Tejas doesn't have short legs against targets in Pakistan.

Btw IAF have fighters with longer range then Tejas for long distant targets so "small" Tejas range isn't problematic as you try to present.

If you look info from wiki for F-18 and compare it with Tejas you need to take in account F-18 ferry range on wiki isn't correct it is range with three fuel tanks. Tejas ferry range is similar but with two fuel tanks.

PLAAF stealths


From where J-20 will came to attack anything important in India? There aren't big airfields in Tibet and those which exist are easy pray for Indian missiles.

Chinese tanker fleet is joke in fact Indian tanker fleet is more capable.

Re: Very grim news for the Indian Air Force

Unread postPosted: 26 May 2020, 01:11
by weasel1962
The Mig-29 is equipped with duds i.e. R77. A missile that even the Indian auditor general criticized. Going into battle with just R-73s is not exactly a winning strategy. At least the Indians were willing to splurge on some Mica missiles.

Its a sign when the Indians are looking at arming their Sukhois with I-Derby-ERs which will equip the Tejas.

Re: Very grim news for the Indian Air Force

Unread postPosted: 26 May 2020, 01:29
by Corsair1963
milosh wrote:
Tejas carry more fuel then Gripen and is lighter if you compare it with F-16 block 50 fuel fraction difference is even higher, so I don't get how Tejas is short legged fighter? Only reason why you are pushing that narrative is because you are pissed off they don't buy F-35.

Also you purposely overlook how close targets in Pakistan are for IAF. Part of Pakistan which is close to India is most populated and most important, Sargodha is les then 200km from boarder and that is most distant city of green part of Pakistan.

With 500km combat radius Tejas doesn't have short legs against targets in Pakistan.


Sorry, the F-16 and Mirage 2000 have far better range and payload than the LCA. That is "easily" supportable.

As for being pissed off I am not. I am concern the Indian Air Force current plan. Is totally inadequate to counter the PLAAF/PAF in the future. Especially, after 2030...

Which, clearly you do not.... :?

Btw IAF have fighters with longer range then Tejas for long distant targets so "small" Tejas range isn't problematic as you try to present.


Absurd....are you aware that maneuvering and carrying external stores. Actually, consume "vast" amounts of fuel. This is even more critical with the small LCA.

If you look info from wiki for F-18 and compare it with Tejas you need to take in account F-18 ferry range on wiki isn't correct it is range with three fuel tanks. Tejas ferry range is similar but with two fuel tanks.


The Super Hornet (or even Hornet) would easily out perform the LCA is virtually any aspect of performance. Honestly, I doubt you could find a Indian Air Force Pilot. That would prefer to take the LCA (Tejas) into combat over 4th Generation Fighters like the F-16, Mirage 2000, or Hornet. If, given the option....(under real world combat conditions)


PLAAF stealths


From where J-20 will came to attack anything important in India? There aren't big airfields in Tibet and those which exist are easy pray for Indian missiles.

Chinese tanker fleet is joke in fact Indian tanker fleet is more capable.


China has a mixed fleet of Il-78's and H-6 Tankers. The exact numbers is closely guarded but very likely on the rise...

It's also worth noting that the Indian Air Force also uses the Il-78 as a tanker. So, not sure how you get that the IAF has superiority over the PLAAF in this regard......

Re: Very grim news for the Indian Air Force

Unread postPosted: 26 May 2020, 01:45
by Corsair1963
weasel1962 wrote:The Mig-29 is equipped with duds i.e. R77. A missile that even the Indian auditor general criticized. Going into battle with just R-73s is not exactly a winning strategy. At least the Indians were willing to splurge on some Mica missiles.

Its a sign when the Indians are looking at arming their Sukhois with I-Derby-ERs which will equip the Tejas.



It's easy to see why India continues to acquire more and more Western Military Hardware. (vs Russian)

Re: Very grim news for the Indian Air Force

Unread postPosted: 26 May 2020, 01:46
by weasel1962
Yes, when one focus on the facts

IAF: 6 IL-78MKI with serviceability record below
https://www.flightglobal.com/indian-rep ... 98.article
Currently on its 3rd attempt to procure new tankers.

PLAAF:
3 IL-78MKs - 65 ton fuel load
~20 H-6U / UDs - 18 ton fuel load, self declared number (link access at your own risk): http://english.chinamil.com.cn/news-cha ... 671974.htm
Y-20 Tankers going forward

Re: Very grim news for the Indian Air Force

Unread postPosted: 26 May 2020, 03:47
by Corsair1963
Simple fact is the Indian Air Force would be in a very tough position. If, it had to defend against the PLAAF. Let alone if the PAF was added. This will be very acute post 2030!

Time to look for solutions to the dilemma. Than some taking it as some king of personal attack toward India. Which, it is not...

Admitting you have a problem is the first step in fixing the problem............ :|

Re: Very grim news for the Indian Air Force

Unread postPosted: 26 May 2020, 05:28
by weasel1962
The Indians know full well their issues/constraints. From a budget angle, budgets have been going up. Using the last budget as an example, out of 4.71 lakh crore (US$65.9b using 71.5 exchange rate on Feb 1 when the budget was announced), they lose US$3b off the bat with the exchange rate going down to RS75+ per US$1 today.

Then 28.4% goes to defense pensions. Of the largest chunk - defense services that comprise 44.4% of the defense budget, 64.5% goes towards pay alone. The remaining to stores and other maintenance upkeep, barely enough to keep things running. Nevertheless a sizeable 24% goes towards capital expenditure of which the air force gets the biggest chunk at 38% , 62% of which (US$3.76b) goes into aircraft renewal/recapitalization. The bulk of which are used to pay past projects like Rafale (termed as "committed liabilities") for which there are reports that the budget is actually lower than committed liabilities. Once the past commitments are cleared, then that amount may afford roughly 1 squadron of fighters a year currently earmarked for the Tejas up to 2029.

Asking India to reduce pensions is like asking Americans to give up social security. Not going to happen. Reduce army size? Sure, just after they finish expanding with a new mountain strike corp. Increase budgets? They are already doing that as fast as they can. They don't have a sugar daddy subsidizing fighter production like what the Chinese do for the Pakistanis. At least with the Tejas (unlike the Rafale), a chunk of the monies flows back into the economy.

Re: Very grim news for the Indian Air Force

Unread postPosted: 26 May 2020, 07:13
by Corsair1963
weasel1962 wrote:The Indians know full well their issues/constraints. From a budget angle, budgets have been going up. Using the last budget as an example, out of 4.71 lakh crore (US$65.9b using 71.5 exchange rate on Feb 1 when the budget was announced), they lose US$3b off the bat with the exchange rate going down to RS75+ per US$1 today.

Then 28.4% goes to defense pensions. Of the largest chunk - defense services that comprise 44.4% of the defense budget, 64.5% goes towards pay alone. The remaining to stores and other maintenance upkeep, barely enough to keep things running. Nevertheless a sizeable 24% goes towards capital expenditure of which the air force gets the biggest chunk at 38% , 62% of which (US$3.76b) goes into aircraft renewal/recapitalization. The bulk of which are used to pay past projects like Rafale (termed as "committed liabilities") for which there are reports that the budget is actually lower than committed liabilities. Once the past commitments are cleared, then that amount may afford roughly 1 squadron of fighters a year currently earmarked for the Tejas up to 2029.

Asking India to reduce pensions is like asking Americans to give up social security. Not going to happen. Reduce army size? Sure, just after they finish expanding with a new mountain strike corp. Increase budgets? They are already doing that as fast as they can. They don't have a sugar daddy subsidizing fighter production like what the Chinese do for the Pakistanis. At least with the Tejas (unlike the Rafale), a chunk of the monies flows back into the economy.


If, India knows full well their issues/constraints as you say. Then it's funny they don't use "what" resources they do have far more wisely???

We aren't talking about developing and building Washing Machines for the masses here! We're talking about the defense of the country. Now they can build new Mig-29's for all I care. Yet, the end result won't be pretty........


As China isn't sitting still and neither is Pakistan.

Hell, by 2030 I doubt the Indian Air Force would "even" rank in the Top Ten. Especially, if they continue with the current plan....(as a matter of fact I know they wouldn't)

Re: Very grim news for the Indian Air Force

Unread postPosted: 26 May 2020, 12:01
by madrat
You are going to see a hard turn in global politics that will grow countries that pivot away from China. India's economy will benefit from it. Foxconn (Taiwam-based) seems to believe in them. China's mainland is getting difficult to work with, especially after further Coronavirus scandals come to light. The IAF is not in any sense in a retreat.

Re: Very grim news for the Indian Air Force

Unread postPosted: 26 May 2020, 17:11
by milosh
Problem with Chinese IL-78 is operational status, because they aren't brand new as Indian tankers but ones build in 1980s.

H-6 fleet status is also questionable for example in Indian Defence Review (Jan-Mar 2019) Vol 34.1 they mentioned only 10 are operational and weak tanker fleet is biggest problem for PLAAF to conduct meningful operations against India.

Y-20 tanker? Very likely but we need to see first prototype, then they need to build nice number of them to have decent tanker fleet. IAF also plan to buy more tankers, six IL-78 I think.

Re: Very grim news for the Indian Air Force

Unread postPosted: 26 May 2020, 19:12
by XanderCrews
weasel1962 wrote:
Asking India to reduce pensions is like asking Americans to give up social security. Not going to happen.



its going to happen when it runs out. :wink:

Re: Very grim news for the Indian Air Force

Unread postPosted: 27 May 2020, 03:02
by weasel1962
milosh wrote:Problem with Chinese IL-78 is operational status, because they aren't brand new as Indian tankers but ones build in 1980s.


Agreed on built dates.
MSN 0073478359/59-10 built Jan 1, 1987 – PLAAF s/no 20641
MSN 0073479400/60-10 built Feb 1, 1988 – PLAAF s/no 20642
MSN 0063469066/52-07 built Sep 30, 1986 – PLAAF s/no 20643

China signed a contract with Ukraine ~2011/2012 to refurbish/re-manufacture the 3 and was delivered ~2014.
Agreed IAF ones are new builds in 2003/2004.

milosh wrote:H-6 fleet status is also questionable for example in Indian Defence Review (Jan-Mar 2019) Vol 34.1 they mentioned only 10 are operational and weak tanker fleet is biggest problem for PLAAF to conduct meaningful operations against India.


All of China's tanker bases are far away from India.I think way more than 10 H-6U/DUs operational, tracking serials.

milosh wrote:Y-20 tanker? Very likely but we need to see first prototype, then they need to build nice number of them to have decent tanker fleet. IAF also plan to buy more tankers, six IL-78 I think.


Spotted 2018 in production green. That's why a lot of online chatter expecting service entry soon.
Y-20 Tanker.jpg


Ps @Xandercrews, won't run out as long as one can borrow.

Re: Very grim news for the Indian Air Force

Unread postPosted: 27 May 2020, 04:32
by Corsair1963
milosh wrote:
Y-20 tanker? Very likely but we need to see first prototype, then they need to build nice number of them to have decent tanker fleet. IAF also plan to buy more tankers, six IL-78 I think.



Y20TX.jpg
"Artist impression" - Y-20A is also expected to be converted into a tanker replacing the obsolete H-6U, which might feature a flying boom system for refueling J-20.


QUOTE:

Tanker variant of China’s Y-20 set to emerge: report

“The Y-20 cargo plane has variants like the Y-20 aerial tanker and Y-20 AEW aircraft,” he says. “I believe that people will see our Y-20 aerial tanker debut on the battlefield in the not too distant future.”

Global Times adds that the tanker variant will carry 90t of fuel, three times more than the smaller H-6 that China uses for tanking missions. It is likely to appear before the AEW version.

A tanker based on the Y-20 would use the hose-and-drogue refueling method. It is understood that China is considering having a refueling pod under each wing, with possibly a third hose deploying from the aircraft’s tail.

https://www.flightglobal.com/fixed-wing ... 58.article


Y-20 AEW and Tanker Variants To Appear Soon
by Chen Chuanren
February 27, 2020, 12:33 PM

China is expected to publicly unveil the tanker variant of the Xian Y-20 military transport aircraft soon, while an airborne early warning and control system (AWACS) version is in development. The commander of an air force aviation regiment of the People's Liberation Army (PLA) Western Theater Command, Teng Hui, confirmed to Chinese state media the existence of the two variants and that the public will see the tanker version in the “not too distant future.”

The introduction of the domestically built Y-20 tanker—most likely to be designated YU-20 or Y-20U—into the People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) will give the air arm the strategic tanking capability it lacks. Currently, the bulk of tankers are Xian HY-6s, based on the Tu-16 bomber airframe, with a fuel payload of only around 30 tons. The PLAAF also has the Ilyushin Il-78MP in service with around 90 tons payload, but with only three on strength it is not able to exercise its full potential in the PLAAF. The first indications of a Y-20 tanker variant emerged in November 2018 when satellite imagery showed under wing refueling pods on a Y-20.

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... ppear-soon


PLUS....

https://asiatimes.com/2020/02/chinas-y- ... s-officer/
https://asianmilitaryreview.com/2020/03 ... -variants/
http://english.chinamil.com.cn/view/202 ... 752203.htm
https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... ppear-soon

Re: Very grim news for the Indian Air Force

Unread postPosted: 27 May 2020, 17:33
by milosh
First they need to have prototype, then they need to test it and then to start producing it.

If we look how "many" Y-20 they build until now I really doubt China will have decent tanker fleet for quite a while. So when they finally have tankers in good numbers IAF will have stealths.

We are talking about 2030s, when IAF would have lot more options. ACMA isn't dead either, and if buying LCA instead MMCA
will increase funds for ACMA that is very good. Btw I think it is mistake they still pushing Tejas Mk2 (which is like Gripen E) they need to stop funding it while increase funding for ACMA. Make it two engined fighter with internal weapon bay using tech developed for Tejas Mk2.

Also in late 2020s, IAF could consider matured F-35 with sidekick and new engine.

Re: Very grim news for the Indian Air Force

Unread postPosted: 28 May 2020, 03:38
by Corsair1963
milosh wrote:First they need to have prototype, then they need to test it and then to start producing it.

If we look how "many" Y-20 they build until now I really doubt China will have decent tanker fleet for quite a while. So when they finally have tankers in good numbers IAF will have stealths.

We are talking about 2030s, when IAF would have lot more options. ACMA isn't dead either, and if buying LCA instead MMCA
will increase funds for ACMA that is very good. Btw I think it is mistake they still pushing Tejas Mk2 (which is like Gripen E) they need to stop funding it while increase funding for ACMA. Make it two engined fighter with internal weapon bay using tech developed for Tejas Mk2.

Also in late 2020s, IAF could consider matured F-35 with sidekick and new engine.



India isn't going to have "stealth" for a very long time. Unless something "drastically" changes and that appears unlikely....(sadly)

Re: Very grim news for the Indian Air Force

Unread postPosted: 28 May 2020, 15:40
by mixelflick
milosh wrote:First they need to have prototype, then they need to test it and then to start producing it.

If we look how "many" Y-20 they build until now I really doubt China will have decent tanker fleet for quite a while. So when they finally have tankers in good numbers IAF will have stealths.

We are talking about 2030s, when IAF would have lot more options. ACMA isn't dead either, and if buying LCA instead MMCA
will increase funds for ACMA that is very good. Btw I think it is mistake they still pushing Tejas Mk2 (which is like Gripen E) they need to stop funding it while increase funding for ACMA. Make it two engined fighter with internal weapon bay using tech developed for Tejas Mk2.

Also in late 2020s, IAF could consider matured F-35 with sidekick and new engine.


How many more options with India have in the 2030's?

The SU-57 timeline doesn't inspire confidence, especially when the Indians 1.) Pulled out of the project and 2.) Have stated repeatedly the require many modifications to the "stock" airframe. The other usual suspects will all be there: Typhoon, Rafale, SH, F-16IN, Gripen E and perhaps the F-15EX from the west. No way they'll be offered the F-35. But they will/supposedly have looked at all of these, and opted instead for Tejas.

From Russia? The same old same old, with perhaps some new bells and whistles: The Mig-35, SU-35, more updates to SU-30MKI. I rather doubt the South Korean or Japanese 5th or 5.5 gens are really happening. Ditto for the Tempest.

So they'll have plenty of Tejas flying of various models, replacing Mig-21's, 27's etc. But their high end air superiority aircraft will be very long in the tooth, no stealth equivalent to what's being fielded in China or worse, what the PAK will get as a result of their joint Chinese/PAK project.

If I were them, I'd be cozying up to the US as much as I could and pour all of my expertise into drones and SAM's/Air Defense. If you think about it, they're not unlike Iran. Geriatric air force due to inability to build their own, can't buy anything decent due to sanctions (or in their case, unique political circumstances)

Not unlike Iran, although I concede their air force isn't nearly as old (today). 10-15 years from now though, it'll sure be looking like it..

Re: Very grim news for the Indian Air Force

Unread postPosted: 29 May 2020, 02:00
by weasel1962
Japan's F-3. They can insert Indian inputs (electronics, avionics, EW/RWR etc). The engines will not be subject to any US license. Modi has been meeting Abe to expand ties. Easy to meet offset requirements with Japanese industry already setting up in India. Can extract ToT for the AMCA project. Japan doesn't embargo anyone (except Koreans). Will be available before 2030 and Japan has stated they want to export the fighter. Politically palatable, only question is costs.

Re: Very grim news for the Indian Air Force

Unread postPosted: 29 May 2020, 02:50
by wrightwing
weasel1962 wrote:Japan's F-3. They can insert Indian inputs (electronics, avionics, EW/RWR etc). The engines will not be subject to any US license. Modi has been meeting Abe to expand ties. Easy to meet offset requirements with Japanese industry already setting up in India. Can extract ToT for the AMCA project. Japan doesn't embargo anyone (except Koreans). Will be available before 2030 and Japan has stated they want to export the fighter. Politically palatable, only question is costs.

I don't see the F-3 being available before 2040. They don't even have a finalized airframe, power plant, avionics, EW, etc.... in mind yet, much less flight testing a prototype/test aircraft.

Re: Very grim news for the Indian Air Force

Unread postPosted: 29 May 2020, 04:57
by weasel1962
Its good to factor in some of the recent developments affecting the F-3 program. A new development was set up within ATLA to run the program (with a program director). Y11.1b (out of Y28b allocated for the F-3 project) will be spent (for FY 20 budget) to start concept design process for the aircraft) with Y7.6b on mission system integration. The new Kure no 2 plant is tooling up to produces parts for the XF9 engine. The new locally developed AESA radar has been showcased. Most of the technologies (except engine) appear mature.

When will F-2s start retiring?

Re: Very grim news for the Indian Air Force

Unread postPosted: 05 Jul 2020, 16:28
by talkitron
India is going shopping for Russian MiG-29s, which is interesting as Russia itself is not procuring them except for one of its aviation display teams. It is also interesting that these are called MiG-29s, not MiG-35s. I wonder what this means for long term plans to acquire a larger set of western fighters than the 36 Rafales, for which delivery will start soon.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-india-china-defence/india-clears-purchase-of-russian-combat-jets-worth-2-4-billion-idUSKBN2432E2

Re: Very grim news for the Indian Air Force

Unread postPosted: 07 Jul 2020, 00:57
by Corsair1963
Don't see how this really helps the IAF let alone deters the PLAAF.... :|