The TF-X (Turkish Fighter - Experimental)

Military aircraft - Post cold war aircraft, including for example B-2, Gripen, F-18E/F Super Hornet, Rafale, and Typhoon.
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lomcovak

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Unread post15 Apr 2020, 22:43

The TF-X (Turkish Fighter - Experimental) is a proposed all-season air superiority twin-engine fighter developed by Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) in collaboration with BAE Systems. The aircraft is expected to replace the Turkish Air Force's F-16 Fighting Falcons and to be exported to foreign air forces. The Turkish National Defense Ministry has stated that TF-X will make its first flight by 2023, but this was later delayed to 2025.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post16 Apr 2020, 01:33

Such early models are more like concepts. The end product may look very different....
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mixelflick

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Unread post16 Apr 2020, 13:52

Not happening...

You can file this with the Japanese stealth fighter, the Tempest, South Korea's etc.. The cost (and expertise) necessary to develop and field a credible stealth fighter is just too much, and production runs will be too little - driving up cost. They'll all realize at some point that buying F-35's is cheaper, and it brings a capability their indigenous designs will just never have.

You can equate this with trying to re-create the wheel...
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milosh

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Unread post16 Apr 2020, 15:04

Well wannabe sultan can have it own Turkish Qaher-313, in pro sultan media it would be presented as best stealth fighter even made.

Whole point of wannabe sultan is PR.

Japan on other hand have need for fighter interceptor. And they are ready to pay lot for it. F-35 isn't suitable for that role.

What I find strange is why Japs and USN already didn't start joint project of "F-24".
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mixelflick

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Unread post17 Apr 2020, 16:37

milosh wrote:Well wannabe sultan can have it own Turkish Qaher-313, in pro sultan media it would be presented as best stealth fighter even made.

Whole point of wannabe sultan is PR.

Japan on other hand have need for fighter interceptor. And they are ready to pay lot for it. F-35 isn't suitable for that role.

What I find strange is why Japs and USN already didn't start joint project of "F-24".


Why don't you think the F-35 as a fighter/interceptor is adequate?

Let's see...

1.) Aircraft's stealth is a game changer. Enemy aircraft will not know where it is, what its doing and will not be able to nullify it. That leaves droves of F-35's roaming the skies, which is bad news for China, N. Korea etc...

2.) Sensors and SA is 2nd to none. This is really the big one... nothing will escape its all gazing eye. Enemy fighters, cruise and even ballistic missiles will all be seen first, shot at first and killed first.

3.) Enemy aircraft won't survive until the merge, but let's say they do. The F-35 is one of the most maneuverable fighters on the planet, but more importantly - back to sensors. The F-35 will be inside of the enemy's OODA loop faster than any other fighter out there - including the F-22. That means even IN the merge the F-35 retains much better SA. Trouble keeping track of who's the enemy and who's not? No problem. BIG problem for aircraft not using the F-35's advanced SA capabilites..

4.) Range - phenomenal range, especially when carrying an air to air loadout. Current 4 AMRAAM's is admittedly somewhat limiting. But the ability to carry 6 internally is coming, and it can also carry 2 AIM-9x outboard. If those are 2 AIM-9x Block II's, you can make that 8 BVRAAM's.

5.) It's a mini-AWACS. In the most recent F-35 Podcast, the pilot mentions that flying alone he has no more need for AWACS. Now imagine what a "wall" of 4, 8 or 10 F-35's flying 50 miles abreast can accomplish.

End of the day no Chinese J-10C, J-11B, J-16 or SU-35 is going to last long (and those are the biggest threats). Less is known about the J-20, but I seriously doubt its stealth is up to the levels seen in the F-35. And given a stealth on stealth air battle, that's likely what'll spell the difference. And let's not forget... the US and its allies have been flying stealth vs. stealth aircraft for years now. Aggressor F-117's, F-22's and F-35's have all partaken. If anybody knows who to win that battle, it's the US/Japan etc..

I just don't see where the F-35 "falls down" as a fighter/interceptor, unless you're talking about things like legacy airframes "clean" top speed, altitude etc.. Which of course makes little sense, given they won't be able to fight with no missiles, tanks or E/W pods they all fly into combat with..
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juretrn

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Unread post19 Apr 2020, 15:52

milosh wrote:Well wannabe sultan can have it own Turkish Qaher-313, in pro sultan media it would be presented as best stealth fighter even made.

Whole point of wannabe sultan is PR.

Japan on other hand have need for fighter interceptor. And they are ready to pay lot for it. F-35 isn't suitable for that role.

What I find strange is why Japs and USN already didn't start joint project of "F-24".

I can also make a plastic model and stick a little Slovenian flag on it; voila! we now have an aerospace industry capable of making a 5th gen fighter. Maybe Pipistrel will make it :doh:

Although to be fair, BAE probably can develop a proper 5th gen, and the Turks just proclaim it as their own.
Russia stronk
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milosh

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Unread post20 Apr 2020, 09:17

@mixelflick

You just focus on fighter vs fighter, for Japan it is secondary.

Chinese fighters and bombers with stealth cruise missiles, supersonic and hypersonic missiles, and air launch ballistic missiles are real danger.

So you need fast long range interceptor which carry very long range fast AAM and big AESA radar.

Japan would need at minimum ASF-14 like plane. Massive aesa radar, AIM-54 like missiles, supercruise engines, and huge fuel capacity.
Last edited by milosh on 20 Apr 2020, 11:22, edited 2 times in total.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post20 Apr 2020, 10:32

mixelflick wrote:
Why don't you think the F-35 as a fighter/interceptor is adequate?

Let's see...

1.) Aircraft's stealth is a game changer. Enemy aircraft will not know where it is, what its doing and will not be able to nullify it. That leaves droves of F-35's roaming the skies, which is bad news for China, N. Korea etc...

2.) Sensors and SA is 2nd to none. This is really the big one... nothing will escape its all gazing eye. Enemy fighters, cruise and even ballistic missiles will all be seen first, shot at first and killed first.

3.) Enemy aircraft won't survive until the merge, but let's say they do. The F-35 is one of the most maneuverable fighters on the planet, but more importantly - back to sensors. The F-35 will be inside of the enemy's OODA loop faster than any other fighter out there - including the F-22. That means even IN the merge the F-35 retains much better SA. Trouble keeping track of who's the enemy and who's not? No problem. BIG problem for aircraft not using the F-35's advanced SA capabilites..

4.) Range - phenomenal range, especially when carrying an air to air loadout. Current 4 AMRAAM's is admittedly somewhat limiting. But the ability to carry 6 internally is coming, and it can also carry 2 AIM-9x outboard. If those are 2 AIM-9x Block II's, you can make that 8 BVRAAM's.

5.) It's a mini-AWACS. In the most recent F-35 Podcast, the pilot mentions that flying alone he has no more need for AWACS. Now imagine what a "wall" of 4, 8 or 10 F-35's flying 50 miles abreast can accomplish.

End of the day no Chinese J-10C, J-11B, J-16 or SU-35 is going to last long (and those are the biggest threats). Less is known about the J-20, but I seriously doubt its stealth is up to the levels seen in the F-35. And given a stealth on stealth air battle, that's likely what'll spell the difference. And let's not forget... the US and its allies have been flying stealth vs. stealth aircraft for years now. Aggressor F-117's, F-22's and F-35's have all partaken. If anybody knows who to win that battle, it's the US/Japan etc..

I just don't see where the F-35 "falls down" as a fighter/interceptor, unless you're talking about things like legacy airframes "clean" top speed, altitude etc.. Which of course makes little sense, given they won't be able to fight with no missiles, tanks or E/W pods they all fly into combat with..



Well said.... :D
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mixelflick

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Unread post20 Apr 2020, 14:38

milosh wrote:@mixelflick

You just focus on fighter vs fighter, for Japan it is secondary.

Chinese fighters and bombers with stealth cruise missiles, supersonic and hypersonic missiles, and air launch ballistic missiles are real danger.

So you need fast long range interceptor which carry very long range fast AAM and big AESA radar.

Japan would need at minimum ASF-14 like plane. Massive aesa radar, AIM-54 like missiles, supercruise engines, and huge fuel capacity.


If that's true (and I think it largely is), then again... why not the F-35? If you accept the need for an ASF-14 like aircraft, then the F-35 is that aircraft (and then some). In simple terms, the F-35 is far more capable than the ASF-14 and lord knows I would have love to have seen the latter in service.

The F-35 IS the aircraft Japan (and others) will need to stop Chinese fighters and bombers with cruise missiles, supersonic and hypersonic and yes, even ALBM's. Yes, its super-cruise is limited but that's about all that's missing vs. the ASF-14. It has much, much betters sensors and weapons. It has the legs. It is adequate for that role today, and will eventually get hypersonic weapons, EFT's/CFT's, more powerful and less thirsty engines and increased magazine depth.

All things considered, I just don't see Japan developing something (all around) better - especially for under $80 million/copy!
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milosh

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Unread post20 Apr 2020, 20:20

I said something like ASF-14 not exactly that plane. I already said it would be ideal to get in USN program of new fighter.

Both sides have very similar needs. Because similar problem they have. It is chinese fighters/bombers with stealth alcm and hypersonic missiles.

When you detect them you have very little time to react before they launch so you need fast plane with couple of big fast missiles.

When Chinese have more and more stealths (fighters, bombers, ucavs) you will need not just speed and big fast missiles but also big aesa radar at least something like upgraded APG-77.

Btw it isn't nothing new. In 1980s USN start work on AIM-54 replacment, AIM-152 missile. Reason?

They expect Soviets to have next generation of bombers and weapons in 1990s which would need much faster reaction time to counter.
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Unread post21 Apr 2020, 02:02

mixelflick wrote:
milosh wrote:@mixelflick

You just focus on fighter vs fighter, for Japan it is secondary.

Chinese fighters and bombers with stealth cruise missiles, supersonic and hypersonic missiles, and air launch ballistic missiles are real danger.

So you need fast long range interceptor which carry very long range fast AAM and big AESA radar.

Japan would need at minimum ASF-14 like plane. Massive aesa radar, AIM-54 like missiles, supercruise engines, and huge fuel capacity.


If that's true (and I think it largely is), then again... why not the F-35? If you accept the need for an ASF-14 like aircraft, then the F-35 is that aircraft (and then some). In simple terms, the F-35 is far more capable than the ASF-14 and lord knows I would have love to have seen the latter in service.

The F-35 IS the aircraft Japan (and others) will need to stop Chinese fighters and bombers with cruise missiles, supersonic and hypersonic and yes, even ALBM's. Yes, its super-cruise is limited but that's about all that's missing vs. the ASF-14. It has much, much betters sensors and weapons. It has the legs. It is adequate for that role today, and will eventually get hypersonic weapons, EFT's/CFT's, more powerful and less thirsty engines and increased magazine depth.

All things considered, I just don't see Japan developing something (all around) better - especially for under $80 million/copy!


Honestly, don't even see Japan leading their own program. Just to expensive and time consuming....


I still believe they'll end up joining one of the US 6th Generation Fighter Programs as a partner!
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Unread post16 Jun 2020, 16:25

Im curious
1. Where will they get the Supercruising engine from?
Since they pissed, off the Europeans, Americans, and are in a proxy war with Russia?

2. The aircraft has some of the worst rear visibility Ive seen in awhile. Do they plan on copying DAS?

3. Why didn't they just play it cool and buy the F-35? This plane is either going to end in disaster or a money pit.

4. Who is the customer? Not even the U.S. is mass producing 200 or more 5th generation fighters with out partners. And with low economies of scale whos going to oay extra for a fighter worse than the F-35?
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lomcovak

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Unread post23 Jun 2020, 06:34

I know that this plane is in collaboration with france with airbus and BAE Systems is involved in many important defense projects, including the F-35 Lightning II, the Eurofighter Typhoon, and to die well

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