Su-57 Felon

Military aircraft - Post cold war aircraft, including for example B-2, Gripen, F-18E/F Super Hornet, Rafale, and Typhoon.
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madrat

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Unread post29 May 2020, 23:59

The IAF could conceivably fend off J-20 with MiG-31M. At least with better odds than using Su-30MKI. Not for MiG-31M dogfight ability, but rather for its ability to sift through massive airspace with four ship sweeps. There is no substitute for radar diameter, and that goes for R-37. The R-40Tx also would be superior to anything China has if trying to engage via a heat seeker. Lack of IIR will always be a shortcoming, but the airframe kinetic performance delta helps provide an insurmountable edge of used properly.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post01 Jun 2020, 01:05

madrat wrote:The IAF could conceivably fend off J-20 with MiG-31M. At least with better odds than using Su-30MKI. Not for MiG-31M dogfight ability, but rather for its ability to sift through massive airspace with four ship sweeps. There is no substitute for radar diameter, and that goes for R-37. The R-40Tx also would be superior to anything China has if trying to engage via a heat seeker. Lack of IIR will always be a shortcoming, but the airframe kinetic performance delta helps provide an insurmountable edge of used properly.




No they couldn't........ :doh:
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Corsair1963

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Unread post01 Jun 2020, 01:21

milosh wrote:It look like China is interesting to get next Su-57 engine:
https://bulgarianmilitary.com/2020/05/2 ... an-engine/

I can't find source they used for article though.

But if that is true it look like they bite more then they can chew with WS-15.



Most believe China acquired the Su-35. Just to gain access to the aircraft and it's technology. Which, it could compare or possibly incorporate into future Chinese Designs. This could (likely) be the same case with the izdeliye 30.


In short it doesn't mean China is having major problems with the WS-15.


Hell, the US would be happy to take a look at the J-20 and/or Su-57. (or any of their components) If, either China or Russia would sell them one...doesn't mean either are better than the F-22/F-35.
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madrat

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Unread post01 Jun 2020, 01:28

MiG-31M gives the Russians a better coverage sweep with four such aircraft than any of their dedicated AWACS equivalents. The biggest advantage is the MiG-31M is better able to defend itself from an attack. Downside is the obvious cost to keep them airborne.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post01 Jun 2020, 01:31

madrat wrote:MiG-31M gives the Russians a better coverage sweep with four such aircraft than any of their dedicated AWACS equivalents. The biggest advantage is the MiG-31M is better able to defend itself from an attack. Downside is the obvious cost to keep them airborne.



That won't be much help against Stealth Fighters and Bombers. Isn't the Mig-31M an "interceptor".... :|
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mixelflick

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Unread post02 Jun 2020, 14:35

Corsair1963 wrote:
madrat wrote:MiG-31M gives the Russians a better coverage sweep with four such aircraft than any of their dedicated AWACS equivalents. The biggest advantage is the MiG-31M is better able to defend itself from an attack. Downside is the obvious cost to keep them airborne.



That won't be much help against Stealth Fighters and Bombers. Isn't the Mig-31M an "interceptor".... :|


It won't be much help, because this is where the stealth/non-stealth divide occurs. If we accept the premise that stealth aircraft are more survivable than non-stealth aircraft, there is no argument for the Mig-31. The J-20 will simply see it first, shoot it first and kill it first. Now its possible the J-20's stealth is sub-par, but even so... it's going to be a lot harder to see than a Mig-31. And the BVR missiles the Chinese will be using ain't chopped liver - they're routinely described as very capable.

Provided the J-20 has even a reasonably low RCS, it shouldn't matter how many square miles a 4 ship Foxbat flight can search. They won't find anything. It also won't matter how many super duper hypersonic air to air missiles the Mig-31 carries. Nor will it matter how fast it can fly. Hurtling at mach 2.8 towards.... nothing is only going to waste lots of Foxbat gas. And by the time it realizes its under attack from PL-15's/21's, those big hypersonic missiles will only serve to weigh it down. There will be no "out maneuvering" them in a Foxbat with supersonic, hypersonic (or even zero) weapons being carried.

Splash 4 Foxbats
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madrat

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Unread post03 Jun 2020, 01:50

Luckily Foxbats were not in the equation.

Basically you're trying to say, the war is lost before it begins.

I'm sorry, but just having some stealth does not eliminate all fourth generation aircraft on either side. I'm talking about expanding situational awareness. You two are talking about using interceptors as fighters. So you're talking apples when I am talking oranges. Until the vast majority of sorties are stealth, you still must counter the 4th generation stuff, too.

In an emergency, India will always have an outside source for stealth counters. The U.S. would never let them fight a losing war only to destabilize the whole Asian continent.
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mixelflick

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Unread post05 Jun 2020, 14:00

"Expanding situational awareness" is a good thing for any fighter pilot. But the amount of SA any 4th gen fighter is going to have will always be inferior to the 5th gen. Superior SA is a hallmark of 5th gen designs, as is lower RCS. The combination of the two is what will lead to a 5th gen winning in virually every case.

A four ship of Foxhounds will have lots of SA, but what good does it do when he can't see the 5th gen pilot, or consequently defend themselves (until its too late)? Anyway, we're getting off topic.

There hasn't been much (real) news about the SU-57 since the crash. A bogus report about Angola ordering some, another about it flying "without a pilot" and announcements from the Russian gov't they're still going through with mass production. I don't know how you do that though, without first determining the cause of the accident. Doesn't sound like pilot error, so if not - it's the plane.

Imagine producing 10 or so before discovering they all have the same flight software (or whatever) flaw. And God forbid there's another crash. This time, the pilot was lucky and got out. Next time, he might not be that fortunate...
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madrat

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Unread post05 Jun 2020, 15:59

You do realize that MiG-31 operates from altitudes that make it extremely difficult to touch? If the Chinese could get close enough to tag a MiG-31 then they can certainly sweep any AWACS out of the sky. So once again, your solution is to give up? Stealth counterparts are a long way out for India. They need stopgap measures now.

The reality is that China has a tiny force of J-20. Not enough to wipe India Air Force assets completely from the sky in one swoop, but enough to inflict some painful losses. But history suggests victory goes to the bold, acting with confidence and minimizing risk through thorough planning. India needs a bold long term strategy to counter China's stealth program. It cannot afford to wait until a crisis to make bold moves. You maintain peace by showing resolve, which makes the moves in the mountains of the Chinese-India border critical for India right now,

In the long term they will need something superior to J-20. China needs it's fourth generation assets and long range aviation to provide the bulk of its capability in the short term. These same assets are highly vulnerable to both detection and long range missiles. It's the one platform that even J-20 cannot touch when operated at its true potential. Three dozen MiG-31M is a bold move and it is much more of a threat to China than the 36 Rafale they bought. By choosing something off the shelf they can shore up some of the holes in their border now to extend the life of current assets.
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mixelflick

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Unread post08 Jun 2020, 15:23

Sure, the Foxhound is capable of great speed and altitude. But it's nothing a PL-15 or 21 can't touch. Those are newer missiles that undoubtedly have capabilities beyond the Phoenix, which as an example was used almost 40 years ago to down similarly high flying Foxbats.

OTOH, I don't espouse giving up LOL. But boy is India in a pickle on this one. Without a low RCS fighter of their own, they're going to get creamed in air to air. So it'll have to be some sort of innovative tactics, such as dragging J-20's into a nest of SAM's or some other ambush. I rather doubt the SU-35's radar can detect stealth jets, despite the PR put out by the Kremlin. And that assumes they'll retro-fit that radar into SU-30MKI's. Assuming it can though, I don't think the Indians can put a weapon on it. The R-77 is dubious, as evidence by the Indians wanting to design something of their own. But if that missile turns out like Tejas, they can forget that. And I don't believe the fairy tale about R-37 hypersonic missile with intercontinental range.

So yeah, it's bad. They're in a much, much worse place than Canada..
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madrat

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Unread post08 Jun 2020, 19:15

I don't think the small fins of the PL-15 or PL-21 would be very optimal for touching a MiG-31.
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milosh

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Unread post08 Jun 2020, 20:16

mixelflick wrote:I rather doubt the SU-35's radar can detect stealth jets, despite the PR put out by the Kremlin. And that assumes they'll retro-fit that radar into SU-30MKI's. Assuming it can though, I don't think the Indians can put a weapon on it. The R-77 is dubious, as evidence by the Indians wanting to design something of their own. But if that missile turns out like Tejas, they can forget that. And I don't believe the fairy tale about R-37 hypersonic missile with intercontinental range.

So yeah, it's bad. They're in a much, much worse place than Canada..


You don't need better fighter to achieve air superiority.

Germans had jets in 1945 and which had similar impact as stealth today. But what good they had with jets?

Allies attacked Me-262 airfields!

IAF can do the same. China don't have many airfields near India and even those they have aren't some advanced ones. India on other hand have Su-30 armed with Brahmos-1, soon it will have Brahmos-M (smaller RCS and better range, shorter with smaller mass new solid fuel and materials composite vs aluminium) two or three will be carried by Su-30MKI, one by Rafale/M2000/MiG-29.

So in case of war China will need to rely on tankers and tanker fleet is small and with very questionable capabilities.

R-37 range is 200km for export version and 300km for domestic one. Missile is ~3 time heavier then basic R-77 and have dual pulse engine so those are realistic ranges especially against big non agile targets like Chinese tankers.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post08 Jun 2020, 23:15

milosh wrote:
mixelflick wrote:I rather doubt the SU-35's radar can detect stealth jets, despite the PR put out by the Kremlin. And that assumes they'll retro-fit that radar into SU-30MKI's. Assuming it can though, I don't think the Indians can put a weapon on it. The R-77 is dubious, as evidence by the Indians wanting to design something of their own. But if that missile turns out like Tejas, they can forget that. And I don't believe the fairy tale about R-37 hypersonic missile with intercontinental range.

So yeah, it's bad. They're in a much, much worse place than Canada..


You don't need better fighter to achieve air superiority.

Germans had jets in 1945 and which had similar impact as stealth today. But what good they had with jets?

Allies attacked Me-262 airfields!

IAF can do the same. China don't have many airfields near India and even those they have aren't some advanced ones. India on other hand have Su-30 armed with Brahmos-1, soon it will have Brahmos-M (smaller RCS and better range, shorter with smaller mass new solid fuel and materials composite vs aluminium) two or three will be carried by Su-30MKI, one by Rafale/M2000/MiG-29.

So in case of war China will need to rely on tankers and tanker fleet is small and with very questionable capabilities.

R-37 range is 200km for export version and 300km for domestic one. Missile is ~3 time heavier then basic R-77 and have dual pulse engine so those are realistic ranges especially against big non agile targets like Chinese tankers.


:lmao:
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madrat

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Unread post08 Jun 2020, 23:35

Corsair1963 wrote: :lmao:

I guess an actual discussion escaped your post. Please don't abuse the quote button like that.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post08 Jun 2020, 23:54

madrat wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote: :lmao:

I guess an actual discussion escaped your post. Please don't abuse the quote button like that.



Absurd to suggest India could win any conflict with China without "Air Superiority". :doh:
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