First serial produced Mig-35's delivered

Unread postPosted: 18 Jun 2019, 15:38
by mixelflick
More at the jump..

https://militarywatchmagazine.com/artic ... -to-follow

As an F-35 counter, this is rather feeble. But against our legacy fighters it can't be under-estimated. They have some interesting systems, very high thrust to weight ratios, AESA radars and other advancements. The one thing they don't have (from other reports) is thrust vectoring. This is however, available as an option to anyone ordering Mig-35's.

That's an interesting departure, especially given their stated MO: Closing to the merge and winning the WVR fight. Just two squadrons initially, with options for follow on orders. I really doubt the Russians will buy more though. While very capable, the SU-30SM and SU-35 handily outperform it in most metrics. This is a showpiece in Russian service, for foreign operators of the Mig-29 to take note.

I find this analogous to us producing F-15EX's if it comes to that. Fun to see such successful fighters tricked up and capable of new things, but ultimately futile when the US could be building more F-35's. With no light stealth fighter to speak of, Russia's only option is more Mig-35's..

Re: FIRST SERIAL PRODUCED MIG-35's DELIVERED

Unread postPosted: 18 Jun 2019, 15:43
by marsavian
AESA is not standard, neither is TVC, and had only been prototyped. Mig-35 is an incremental advance on Mig-29 as it stands now.

p.s. militarywatchmagazine is a Kremlin mouthpiece so verify information coming from them.

Re: FIRST SERIAL PRODUCED MIG-35's DELIVERED

Unread postPosted: 18 Jun 2019, 19:28
by vilters
TVC is fir airshows, not for combat.
On the contrary, it increases weight and maintenance and decreases Main Time Between Failures.

So let us all shout : Add the TVC, Add the TVC, so we have fewer combat ready Mig-35 to worry about. LOL.

Re: FIRST SERIAL PRODUCED MIG-35's DELIVERED

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2019, 03:02
by charlielima223
vilters wrote:TVC is fir airshows, not for combat.
On the contrary, it increases weight and maintenance and decreases Main Time Between Failures.


We don't seem to have a problem with thrust vector on the F-22... whats the difference between ours (US) and their (Russia)?

Re: FIRST SERIAL PRODUCED MIG-35's DELIVERED

Unread postPosted: 28 Jun 2019, 04:50
by firebase99
vilters wrote:TVC is fir airshows, not for combat.
On the contrary, it increases weight and maintenance and decreases Main Time Between Failures.

So let us all shout : Add the TVC, Add the TVC, so we have fewer combat ready Mig-35 to worry about. LOL.


IIRC, the TVC on the Raptor was designed in for its Super Cruise at 60K feet +....not REALLY for turnin' and burnin'.

Re: FIRST SERIAL PRODUCED MIG-35's DELIVERED

Unread postPosted: 28 Jun 2019, 07:14
by hornetfinn
marsavian wrote:AESA is not standard, neither is TVC, and had only been prototyped. Mig-35 is an incremental advance on Mig-29 as it stands now.


That's true. Current MiG-35 is roughly equal to F/A-18C or F-16 Block 50 when it comes to avionics capabilities. Those became operational 25 years ago or so. Of course they are pretty nice improvement over current MiG-29s, but come very late to game. At least they need those AESA radars as a lot of Western and Chinese fighters have AESAs or are getting them soon.

Re: First serial produced Mig-35's delivered

Unread postPosted: 28 Jun 2019, 14:41
by knowan
The MiG-35 is essentially just a renamed MiG-29K for the Russian Air Force.

Re: FIRST SERIAL PRODUCED MIG-35's DELIVERED

Unread postPosted: 29 Jun 2019, 18:10
by swiss
firebase99 wrote:
vilters wrote:TVC is fir airshows, not for combat.
On the contrary, it increases weight and maintenance and decreases Main Time Between Failures.

So let us all shout : Add the TVC, Add the TVC, so we have fewer combat ready Mig-35 to worry about. LOL.


IIRC, the TVC on the Raptor was designed in for its Super Cruise at 60K feet +....not REALLY for turnin' and burnin'.


The "pedals" from the Engines are like additional rudders, and helps to maneuver in thin air.

Scorpion1alpha wrote:Like some already mentioned, TV enhances the F-22’s maneuvering performance at high speeds and high altitudes where the thin air (the regime the Raptor routinely operates at) renders control surfaces less effective. The F-22’s pedals can be considered two additional control surfaces; that and along with its other design features allows it to maneuver around up there like a slick F-16 at 20K. Get any other fighter up there with the F-22 and they'll struggle mightily.


hornetfinn wrote:That's true. Current MiG-35 is roughly equal to F/A-18C or F-16 Block 50 when it comes to avionics capabilities. Those became operational 25 years ago or so. Of course they are pretty nice improvement over current MiG-29s, but come very late to game. At least they need those AESA radars as a lot of Western and Chinese fighters have AESAs or are getting them soon.


The Mig-35 have to wait for an AESA at least to 2021. And the performance is not very impressive.


https://www.janes.com/article/84713/pha ... Ug57_8O4Sk

Re: FIRST SERIAL PRODUCED MIG-35's DELIVERED

Unread postPosted: 02 Nov 2019, 12:40
by vladimir
swiss wrote:
firebase99 wrote:
vilters wrote:TVC is fir airshows, not for combat.
On the contrary, it increases weight and maintenance and decreases Main Time Between Failures.

So let us all shout : Add the TVC, Add the TVC, so we have fewer combat ready Mig-35 to worry about. LOL.


IIRC, the TVC on the Raptor was designed in for its Super Cruise at 60K feet +....not REALLY for turnin' and burnin'.


The "pedals" from the Engines are like additional rudders, and helps to maneuver in thin air.

Scorpion1alpha wrote:Like some already mentioned, TV enhances the F-22’s maneuvering performance at high speeds and high altitudes where the thin air (the regime the Raptor routinely operates at) renders control surfaces less effective. The F-22’s pedals can be considered two additional control surfaces; that and along with its other design features allows it to maneuver around up there like a slick F-16 at 20K. Get any other fighter up there with the F-22 and they'll struggle mightily.


hornetfinn wrote:That's true. Current MiG-35 is roughly equal to F/A-18C or F-16 Block 50 when it comes to avionics capabilities. Those became operational 25 years ago or so. Of course they are pretty nice improvement over current MiG-29s, but come very late to game. At least they need those AESA radars as a lot of Western and Chinese fighters have AESAs or are getting them soon.


The Mig-35 have to wait for an AESA at least to 2021. And the performance is not very impressive.


https://www.janes.com/article/84713/pha ... Ug57_8O4Sk



It has 'unimpressive performance' only in your head and in the 'National Interest' magazine ANALysis. :D

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... d-avionics

MAKS 2019: Refined MiG-35 Gets New Missiles and Avionics

Image

According to Tarasenko, the new version features further-refined geometry of the airframe, uprated Klimov RD-33MK engines with thrust at full afterburner of nine tonnes, an advanced electro-optical reconnaissance system, and an active-array (AESA) radar capable of tracking up to 30 targets simultaneously. Additionally, RAC MiG’s press release also mentions “renewed mission equipment” and “other improvements made to meet the requirements of potential foreign customers."

Vympel R-37, also known as RVV-BD, the Russian acronym for “air-to-air missile, long-range.” Although the possibility of the MiG-35 being outfitted with the 300-km (162-nm) R-37 was first mentioned a couple of years ago, MAKS 2019 was the first time that the aircraft had been displayed with this weapon.

RAC MiG hopes to win a new Indian Navy order if the earlier announced tender for 57 deck fighters proceeds. They would equip the navy’s new carrier, Vishal, construction of which is yet to start.


https://www.aircosmosinternational.com/ ... or-uavs-55

Thus, in order to optimize the chances to export the Mig-35, Phazotron has developed a new Aesa radar with a range of 170 km — the Zhuk AE-AR. Most of all, Phazotron developed, in cooperation with the Bauman Moscow State Technical University, a multifunction radar for UAVs of 35 kg working in Ku band and not in X band as its Western competitors. With its weather modes, the radiolocalisation, altimetry and GMTI, its SAR imagery capability of a range of 80 km could reach a resolution of 25 cm. The use of the Ku band should enable it to resist to most of the NATO jamming systems.


We don't know exact performances, but from all the available info we can realistically assume first AESA-fitted MiG-35s will be delivered to the Russian Air Force in 2020 and those radars will have 1000+ T/R modules, 200km range against 4G fighter size aircraft (according to some info 260km), it will be lightweight and it will have SAR resolution 0,1m from 20km and 0,25m from 80km.
We can't see the future, but we can realistically assume hundreds of MiG-35s will be sold around the world during the 2020s, just like hundreds of MIG-29M/SMT/UBT/K/KUBs fitted with non-AESA Zhuk-ME radars were previously ordered by Russia, but also by India, Egypt, Algeria, Yemen, Peru during the 2000s and 2010s.

Re: First serial produced Mig-35's delivered

Unread postPosted: 02 Nov 2019, 19:45
by wrightwing
Why are we assuming 200km to 260km, when the link says 170km? Those numbers are unlikely, as they'd be superior to the Su-35, which has a look down detection range of 170km and look up detection range of 190km.

Re: First serial produced Mig-35's delivered

Unread postPosted: 02 Nov 2019, 21:14
by milosh
wrightwing wrote:Why are we assuming 200km to 260km, when the link says 170km? Those numbers are unlikely, as they'd be superior to the Su-35, which has a look down detection range of 170km and look up detection range of 190km.


https://i41.servimg.com/u/f41/09/01/13/73/phazot12.jpg

And MiG-35 presented on MAKS 2019 have 200km range for fighter targets.

Su-35 radar isn't AESA and its max range is lot better then 190km for 3m2. It is 350-400km in narrow search mode. Here is video of radar detecting four targets probable ordinary radar target Russia use:

http://roe.ru/eng/catalog/aerospace-sys ... ogies/dan/

equiped with lens (1.4m2 to 3.6m2 RCS)

Video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cieLN4_tn0A

Speed of scanning could indicate narrow scan mode.

Re: First serial produced Mig-35's delivered

Unread postPosted: 02 Nov 2019, 23:13
by wrightwing
milosh wrote:
wrightwing wrote:Why are we assuming 200km to 260km, when the link says 170km? Those numbers are unlikely, as they'd be superior to the Su-35, which has a look down detection range of 170km and look up detection range of 190km.


https://i41.servimg.com/u/f41/09/01/13/73/phazot12.jpg

And MiG-35 presented on MAKS 2019 have 200km range for fighter targets.

Su-35 radar isn't AESA and its max range is lot better then 190km for 3m2. It is 350-400km in narrow search mode. Here is video of radar detecting four targets probable ordinary radar target Russia use:

http://roe.ru/eng/catalog/aerospace-sys ... ogies/dan/

equiped with lens (1.4m2 to 3.6m2 RCS)

Video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cieLN4_tn0A

Speed of scanning could indicate narrow scan mode.


The 350-400km range is a 10°x10° cued search. In a full volume, non-cued search, it's 170km/190km vs a 3m^2 target. Those >200km ranges were in narrow scan mode.

Re: FIRST SERIAL PRODUCED MIG-35's DELIVERED

Unread postPosted: 03 Nov 2019, 02:32
by botsing
vladimir wrote:It has 'unimpressive performance' only in your head and in the 'National Interest' magazine ANALysis. :D

No, it only has an impressive performance according to some unverified source. :roll:

Re: First serial produced Mig-35's delivered

Unread postPosted: 03 Nov 2019, 10:33
by milosh
wrightwing wrote:The 350-400km range is a 10°x10° cued search. In a full volume, non-cued search, it's 170km/190km vs a 3m^2 target. Those >200km ranges were in narrow scan mode.


And what I wrote? I wrote two times "narrow scan mode". I never find info about wider search mode ranges. Russians always use that narrow mode for their modern PESA radars as official range data.

What I find strange is why others not use same mode, I mean PESA and AESA radars have super fast scanning so narrow scan isn't problem as it would be with MESA radars. Maybe some other things are problem.

Re: First serial produced Mig-35's delivered

Unread postPosted: 03 Nov 2019, 20:51
by wrightwing
milosh wrote:
wrightwing wrote:The 350-400km range is a 10°x10° cued search. In a full volume, non-cued search, it's 170km/190km vs a 3m^2 target. Those >200km ranges were in narrow scan mode.


And what I wrote? I wrote two times "narrow scan mode". I never find info about wider search mode ranges. Russians always use that narrow mode for their modern PESA radars as official range data.

What I find strange is why others not use same mode, I mean PESA and AESA radars have super fast scanning so narrow scan isn't problem as it would be with MESA radars. Maybe some other things are problem.

Narrow cued search = soda straw field of view + slower scan rate = you're not going to find targets on your own = a worthless performance metric. Others do use narrow cued searches. They just don't make claims about those being representative of the actual detection range, especially when they also use a 50% probability of detection standard. When you see western specs, they're using a 90% probability of detection standard.

Re: First serial produced Mig-35's delivered

Unread postPosted: 04 Nov 2019, 03:54
by Corsair1963
Russia would be lucky to find one or two export orders for the Mig-35. Let alone New Mig-29K's.... :lmao:

Re: First serial produced Mig-35's delivered

Unread postPosted: 04 Nov 2019, 07:46
by hornetfinn
milosh wrote:And what I wrote? I wrote two times "narrow scan mode". I never find info about wider search mode ranges. Russians always use that narrow mode for their modern PESA radars as official range data.

What I find strange is why others not use same mode, I mean PESA and AESA radars have super fast scanning so narrow scan isn't problem as it would be with MESA radars. Maybe some other things are problem.


Here is data from UAC:
https://www.uacrussia.ru/en/aircraft/li ... n-features

The most important difference between the Su-35 and ”4+” generation fighters is its fifth-generation avionics. The Irbis-E radar station with rotating phased antenna array designed by the V. Tikhomirov Research Institute of Instrumentation provides for the assured detection and acquisition of typical aerial targets at a range of up to 200 km (up to 170 km against ground background), and in a narrower field of view¬ – up to 350-400 km. The Irbis-E is able to track up to 30 targets at a time and guide missiles at 8 of them, without an interruption in airspace surveillance. The radar control system also provides for the selective acquisition of moving ground targets and cueing for low-level missions.

Re: First serial produced Mig-35's delivered

Unread postPosted: 04 Nov 2019, 09:25
by hornetfinn
Modern AESA radars are not necessarily using any modes really like legacy radars do. This is because they can basically have a different mode for each beam. For example they can use search beams to find new targets and then use another kind of beam to track targets already detected. They might use cued search beams to find targets that have been detected by another sensor (inboard or off-board). Each of these beams might have totally different beam and signal qualities optimized to one task. They could have just air-to-air mode, air-to-ground mode and for example SAR mode. All these could be interleaved and have many submodes (which it can switch between individual beams). Older AESA radar systems usually have similar modes as legacy radars especially if they use same back-end.

Even if AESA in MiG-35 had lower max range figures than Irbis-E for example, it could have several advantages over it:
- Better resistance to EW
- Better performance against ground clutter
- Better resolution and ability to detect smaller RCS targets
- Better reliability and ease of maintenance

Re: First serial produced Mig-35's delivered

Unread postPosted: 04 Nov 2019, 12:05
by hornetfinn
I have to add that otherwise Su-35 is likely the better platform for many things especially for RuAF which definitely needs long range aircraft due to vast distances. Of course they could do Su-35SM with larger AESA radar which would definitely be superior in almost all aspects, but they also have Su-57 for that.

Re: First serial produced Mig-35's delivered

Unread postPosted: 04 Nov 2019, 18:36
by mixelflick
Well, I hope it succeeds - for Mig's sake. I think it's the odds on favorite in the Indian competition, and they desperately need it to replace aging Mig's and Sukhoi's. It's going to be more and more out of place in a 5th gen world though. At this point, Mig needs a real gift (Mig-35 shoots down an F/A-18/F-15*) to get back to their former glory.

*Note I don't wish any harm on anyone, especially US pilots

I was really hoping the SU-57 would have severe issues. Severe enough for the order to be canceled and Mig to role out something similar to their LMFS concept of yesteryear. Here's one from 2002. The LERX and blended wing/fuselage looks decidedly.... Russian.

Re: First serial produced Mig-35's delivered

Unread postPosted: 04 Nov 2019, 22:55
by wrightwing
mixelflick wrote:Well, I hope it succeeds - for Mig's sake. I think it's the odds on favorite in the Indian competition, and they desperately need it to replace aging Mig's and Sukhoi's. It's going to be more and more out of place in a 5th gen world though. At this point, Mig needs a real gift (Mig-35 shoots down an F/A-18/F-15*) to get back to their former glory.

*Note I don't wish any harm on anyone, especially US pilots

I was really hoping the SU-57 would have severe issues. Severe enough for the order to be canceled and Mig to role out something similar to their LMFS concept of yesteryear. Here's one from 2002. The LERX and blended wing/fuselage looks decidedly.... Russian.

Personally, I'd prefer to see Mig and Sukhoi go out of business. I don't care if they get customers or not. It's not in our interest that they have any success.

Re: First serial produced Mig-35's delivered

Unread postPosted: 05 Nov 2019, 12:24
by vladimir
Corsair1963 wrote:Russia would be lucky to find one or two export orders for the Mig-35. Let alone New Mig-29K's.... :lmao:


Indian Navy has already ordered 45 MiG-29Ks, Indian Air Force has modernized 69 older MiG-29s to the SMT level (or more precisely, UPG level with SOME non-Russian avionics, but with the Russian-built Zhuk-ME radar) and now they want more of it.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 894263.cms

Indian Air Force plans to buy 33 MiG-29, Sukhoi 30 fighter jets

A proposal in this regard by the IAF is likely to be taken up before a high-level meeting of the Defence Ministry in the next few weeks, government sources told ANI.
NEW DELHI: In a move likely to boost its dwindling fighter squadron strength, the Indian Air Force (IAF) is pushing a proposal for acquiring 33 new combat aircraft including 21 MiG-29s and 12 Sukhoi 30s.


One of many reasons why India wants more of these fighters is that they significantly contributed to the victory in the Kargil Was in 1999 against Pakistan and their F-16s.

https://militarywatchmagazine.com/artic ... ussian-jet

MiG-29 Over Delhi; The Indian Air Force and Navy’s Special Relationship with the Versatile Russian Jet

The Indian Air Force currently operates approximately 70 MiG-29 twin engine medium fighters, which before the induction of the elite Su-30MKI in the early 2000s represented the country’s most advanced and capable combat jet for both air to air and strike missions. The Indian Air Force placed its first order for 50 of the fighters in 1980, five years before it was ready for frontline service, and the service became the first other than the Soviet Air Force to operate the platform. Acquisition of the MiG-29 was considered a high priority due to the advanced capabilities of neighbouring Pakistan’s U.S. built F-16 Fighting Falcons - which the heavier, faster and more manoeuvrable Soviet jet was designed specifically to counter. The MiG-29 proved an invaluable asset during the 1999 Kargil War, where they were able to effectively deter any interventions by Pakistani F-16s due to their superior capabilities and access to beyond visual range air to air munitions which their counterparts in the Pakistani Air Force lacked. The Soviet built fighters regularly patrolled the Indo-Pakistani border during this period, and in at least one incident locked onto Pakistani F-16s to warn them away from intervening in support of Kashmiri insurgents.


And the Indian Navy wants more of MiG-29K for their new aircraft carrier. Somewhere I read they want another batch of 45 MiG-29Ks.

https://militarywatchmagazine.com/artic ... ce-in-2021

The Vikrant will also deploy Russian made MiG-29K fighter jets from its deck alongside Russian anti submarine warfare and airborne early warning aircraft - providing an air wing closely mirroring that of the heavier INS Vikramaditya. It has also been announced that the Indian Navy intends to eventually deploy indigenous Tejas single engine light fighters from the deck of the INS Vikrant to complement the heavier MiG-29, although significant delays in this fighter program mean that the warship may not receive these aircraft for some time.



Basic MIG-29A/B range (version from the 1980s):
without external tanks: 1500km,
with external tanks: 2100km

MiG-29SMT range:
without external tanks: 2000km,
with external tanks: 3000km

MiG-35 range:
without external tanks: 2400km,
with external tanks: 3200km

Su-35 range:
without external tanks: 3600km,
with external tanks: 4500km

So the range of MiG-35 compared to the basic MiG-29 has been increased by 60%.
So MiG-35 has pretty good range and soon will have pretty good AESA radar (good range, good number of T/R modules and good SAR resolution). It will probably have R-77 with AESA radar in the head and ramjet engine in the back.

Re: First serial produced Mig-35's delivered

Unread postPosted: 05 Nov 2019, 13:59
by mixelflick
I rather doubt the reason for more Mig-29's goes back to the 1999 skirmish with Pakistan. PAK F-16's now carry AMRAAM's, so any BVR advantage the Mig-29 held has been long erased.

What may be enticing is the Mig's lower cost/CPFH vs. the SU-30MKI, and smaller logistical footprint. I'd say those two factors weigh much more heavily. In addition, their SU-30MKI's didn't exactly put up a dominant showing in the latest IN/PAK border skirmish. They found themselves defensive vs. PAK F-16/AMRAAM's, while claiming no kills of their own. The fact IN is fast tracking a new BVR weapon for the MKI speaks volumes.

If it comes to pass, the Mig-35 will be a big step up from their current fleet. I think it's the odds on favorite to win. IN won't want F-16IN's, PAK already flies the F-16. The SH would make sense, but not when most fighters you're replacing are Mig's/Sukhoi's. I doubt the Gripen is in the mix, and even if it was it wouldn't be competitive. And it's highly unlikely they can afford Rafale in the quantity needed, nor are they getting the F-35.

That leaves the Mig-35, so there's my reasoning...

Re: First serial produced Mig-35's delivered

Unread postPosted: 05 Nov 2019, 14:11
by madrat
You only need one Rafale for every three MiG-35, so Rafale is cheaper in a fleet wide acquisition.

Re: First serial produced Mig-35's delivered

Unread postPosted: 06 Nov 2019, 15:31
by mixelflick
wrightwing wrote:
mixelflick wrote:Well, I hope it succeeds - for Mig's sake. I think it's the odds on favorite in the Indian competition, and they desperately need it to replace aging Mig's and Sukhoi's. It's going to be more and more out of place in a 5th gen world though. At this point, Mig needs a real gift (Mig-35 shoots down an F/A-18/F-15*) to get back to their former glory.

*Note I don't wish any harm on anyone, especially US pilots

I was really hoping the SU-57 would have severe issues. Severe enough for the order to be canceled and Mig to role out something similar to their LMFS concept of yesteryear. Here's one from 2002. The LERX and blended wing/fuselage looks decidedly.... Russian.

Personally, I'd prefer to see Mig and Sukhoi go out of business. I don't care if they get customers or not. It's not in our interest that they have any success.


I'm not so sure I agree with this...

Since the cold war and continuing on through the F-22, American fighter designs have been pushed to new levels by the competition. The Mig-25 was thought to be a super-fighter, which gave birth to the F-15 (a super fighter of our own). And when satellite images of the Mig-29/SU-27 prototypes first appeared, we started the ATF program.

True, the Chinese could be the new catalyst. But Russia still can't be discounted. The SU-57 is a very capable aircraft, and will wreck havoc on all but the F-22 and 35. It may even give the 22 and 35 all they can handle - we just don't know yet.

My point is this: Competition is good. And with respect to at least airframe design, Russian engineers have proven VERY capable opponents. We need those opponents to bring the best out of PCA/F/A-XX (and beyond) IMO...

Re: First serial produced Mig-35's delivered

Unread postPosted: 06 Nov 2019, 22:49
by milosh
mixelflick wrote:I rather doubt the reason for more Mig-29's goes back to the 1999 skirmish with Pakistan. PAK F-16's now carry AMRAAM's, so any BVR advantage the Mig-29 held has been long erased.


Its rough field capability is what Indians like. In case total war starts, airfields would burn first. Pakistan have lot of tactical ballistic missiles and have subsonic small RCS missiles. So they can take out Indian airfields, India can do even better against Pak airfields using Brahmos family of missiles, so MiG-29 would be only modern fighter in that area which can take off and land and that means a lot.

This is what people forgot. We didn't train our pilots to take off and land on grass fields with MiG-29, our neighbors Hungarians did. They could afford that because USSR was there to replace lost MiG-29 if something goes wrong. But that ability mean a lot in case of big war.

In case of police actions it really don't mean much. America or Russia fighting against ISIS and similar rebels really don't need to worry someone will hit its airfield with balistic missile, stealthy subsonic cruise missile or Mach 3 cruise missile. So rough field capability of MiG-29 is overlooked, I would say even in Russia.

Re: First serial produced Mig-35's delivered

Unread postPosted: 07 Nov 2019, 00:03
by ovod
milosh wrote:Its rough field capability is what Indians like.


I doubt if that is true. Rough field capability was not a requirement when the Indian air force purchased the Rafale, or when the IAF set the specifications for the design of the LCA "Tejas". How often does the IAF actually fly their MiG-29s from "rough fields"?

We didn't train our pilots to take off and land on grass fields with MiG-29, our neighbors Hungarians did. They could afford that because USSR was there to replace lost MiG-29 if something goes wrong.


Hungarian air force didn't take delivery of the MiG-29 till 1993, a year or so after the end of the Soviet Union, the Cold War and the Warsaw Pact. When did the Hungarians, the Poles, Czech or East Germans fly their MiG-29s from grass fields?

Re: First serial produced Mig-35's delivered

Unread postPosted: 07 Nov 2019, 15:13
by mixelflick
ovod wrote:
milosh wrote:Its rough field capability is what Indians like.


I doubt if that is true. Rough field capability was not a requirement when the Indian air force purchased the Rafale, or when the IAF set the specifications for the design of the LCA "Tejas". How often does the IAF actually fly their MiG-29s from "rough fields"?

We didn't train our pilots to take off and land on grass fields with MiG-29, our neighbors Hungarians did. They could afford that because USSR was there to replace lost MiG-29 if something goes wrong.


Hungarian air force didn't take delivery of the MiG-29 till 1993, a year or so after the end of the Soviet Union, the Cold War and the Warsaw Pact. When did the Hungarians, the Poles, Czech or East Germans fly their MiG-29s from grass fields?


Excellent points...

OTOH, I can appreciate what he's saying about rough field performance. Yet, how often is that capability used? Not much, from what I can tell. Perhaps in DS1, where we cratered the hell out of Saddam's runways and airfields. However, Iraq had plenty of Migs and Sukhoi's designed for rough field/austere operations - including the Mig-29. They never took advantage of that capability.

I wonder why.

It may have been they weren't trained for it. It may have been there was no usable stretch of runway available (too many craters). Or it may have been you can't take off from a sand airfield (now THAT would be something, LOL). Whatever the case, aircraft designed for "rough field" operation appear to have limitations.

Re: First serial produced Mig-35's delivered

Unread postPosted: 07 Nov 2019, 20:14
by milosh
@ovod

I mistake Hungarian MiG-21 and MiG-29, I knew they take off from grass field with MiG-21, something which we didn't do.

@mixelflick

FOD isn't problem for USAF or Russia because only war where airfields of both countries could be under heavy attack is WW3 and there you have much bigger problems then not being able to take off.

But Indo Pak war would surely see strong attacks on airfields. So what good from Rafale of Su-30 if they can't take off? On other hand you have MiG-29 with intake doors:
https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-e ... e428d52a-c

So you fix airstrip as fast as you can and it can take off no need to clean FOD, Su-30 has metal mesh but it isn't nowhere near good as MiG-29 solution because mesh isn't strong as solid door and during takeoff MiG-29 suck air trough LERX vents:
https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/attachme ... g29smt.jpg

while Flanker will still suck air trough intake mouth so any bigger piece of airstrip could be suck in and probable punch trough mesh and damage engine.

Iraqs vs collation was totally different category compare to Indo Pak war, because repairing air strips when opponent have total control of sky is not possible.

Re: First serial produced Mig-35's delivered

Unread postPosted: 07 Nov 2019, 23:17
by vladimir
mixelflick wrote:I rather doubt the reason for more Mig-29's goes back to the 1999 skirmish with Pakistan. PAK F-16's now carry AMRAAM's, so any BVR advantage the Mig-29 held has been long erased.

What may be enticing is the Mig's lower cost/CPFH vs. the SU-30MKI, and smaller logistical footprint. I'd say those two factors weigh much more heavily. In addition, their SU-30MKI's didn't exactly put up a dominant showing in the latest IN/PAK border skirmish. They found themselves defensive vs. PAK F-16/AMRAAM's, while claiming no kills of their own. The fact IN is fast tracking a new BVR weapon for the MKI speaks volumes.

If it comes to pass, the Mig-35 will be a big step up from their current fleet. I think it's the odds on favorite to win. IN won't want F-16IN's, PAK already flies the F-16. The SH would make sense, but not when most fighters you're replacing are Mig's/Sukhoi's. I doubt the Gripen is in the mix, and even if it was it wouldn't be competitive. And it's highly unlikely they can afford Rafale in the quantity needed, nor are they getting the F-35.

That leaves the Mig-35, so there's my reasoning...


Su-30MKI didn't take part in those border skirmish. You're extremely arrogant if you believe that F-16C Block 52 is superior to Su-30MKI in anything, I mean the latter one has a way more powerful and technologically more advanced PESA radar than F-16's AN/APG-(V)9, R-77 'fire and forget' missiles, better range...

https://www.radartutorial.eu/19.kartei/ ... 24.en.html
AN/APG-68 can search 120 degrees in azimuth and elevation and is supposed to have a range of 35 NM (≙ 65 km) in the “look-up” mode and 27.5 NM (≙ 50 km) in the “look-down” mode. The APG-68(V)9 radar has a 30% greater air-to-air detection range (i.e.: 85 km)


You're also so arrogant to believe that F-16 and other US-made aircraft are the only aircraft in the world that carry missiles like AMRAAM... well, MiG-29UGTs and MiG-29Ks have Zhuk-ME radars (range 120km, better than AN/APG-(V)9 ) and carry R-77 missiles with better range than AMRAAM. Indian Air Force has ordered hundreds if not thousands of R-77 missiles.

Both Su-30MKI & MiG-29UPSs would be able to detect F-16 Block 52 before they are detected themselves, they would also be able to fire R-77 missiles before F-16 Block 52 fires AMRAAM back at them.

MiG-29UGP can also carry 2x R-27ER/ET long-range missile, 4x R-77 medium-range missiles and 2x R-73 short-range missiles and first launch R-27ER/ET at Pakitani F-16 so F-16 has to take defensive posture which gives MiG significant tactical advantage, then really destroy it by launching a few R-77. It almost always works in DCS. :)

From the text above you can read that MiG-35 will be able to carry R-37 with 300km range, so be sure that AESA radar of MiG-35 will have pretty good range, a way better than US, Pakistani or Polish F-16C/D Block 52.
F-16E/F Block 60 with APG-80 AESA radar and Block 70/72 with APG-83 radar are comparable to MiG-35, but as far as I know only the UAE flies it, Slovakia and Taiwan have ordered it.

Re: First serial produced Mig-35's delivered

Unread postPosted: 08 Nov 2019, 02:30
by element1loop
vladimir wrote:... It almost always works in DCS. ...


:doh: :roll: :mrgreen:

Re: First serial produced Mig-35's delivered

Unread postPosted: 08 Nov 2019, 02:33
by wrightwing
vladimir wrote:




Su-30MKI didn't take part in those border skirmish. You're extremely arrogant if you believe that F-16C Block 52 is superior to Su-30MKI in anything, I mean the latter one has a way more powerful and technologically more advanced PESA radar than F-16's AN/APG-(V)9, R-77 'fire and forget' missiles, better range...


The Su-30s have a more powerful radar, but that doesn't mean that they have a first look advantage over an F-16. The Su-30 In a combat configuration probably has a RCS of >20m^2. The F-16 is likely closer to 3m^2. When quoting radar ranges, it's helpful to know not only what they're talking about, but what you're talking about.


You're also so arrogant to believe that F-16 and other US-made aircraft are the only aircraft in the world that carry missiles like AMRAAM... well, MiG-29UGTs and MiG-29Ks have Zhuk-ME radars (range 120km, better than AN/APG-(V)9 ) and carry R-77 missiles with better range than AMRAAM. Indian Air Force has ordered hundreds if not thousands of R-77 missiles.


The R-77 has a significantly shorter range than the AIM-120, as was demonstrated quite dramatically. Secondly, the IAF doesn't have thousands of them in inventory. Even the RuAF doesn't have extensive stockpiles, as the weapon seen most often is an R-27 variant.

Both Su-30MKI & MiG-29UPSs would be able to detect F-16 Block 52 before they are detected themselves, they would also be able to fire R-77 missiles before F-16 Block 52 fires AMRAAM back at them.

This is false. The RCS disadvantage outweighs the radar capabilities. There won't be any significant differences in detection range as a result. The Pakistani F-16s demonstrated a first shoot capability, while remaining out of range.

MiG-29UGP can also carry 2x R-27ER/ET long-range missile, 4x R-77 medium-range missiles and 2x R-73 short-range missiles and first launch R-27ER/ET at Pakitani F-16 so F-16 has to take defensive posture which gives MiG significant tactical advantage, then really destroy it by launching a few R-77. It almost always works in DCS. :)
Stick to DVD.

From the text above you can read that MiG-35 will be able to carry R-37 with 300km range, so be sure that AESA radar of MiG-35 will have pretty good range, a way better than US, Pakistani or Polish F-16C/D Block 52.
F-16E/F Block 60 with APG-80 AESA radar and Block 70/72 with APG-83 radar are comparable to MiG-35, but as far as I know only the UAE flies it, Slovakia and Taiwan have ordered it.

Let us know when even the RuAF has a significant stockpile of R-37s, much less when they're being exported in quantity. Right Now, you're not likely to see any except on Mig-31s.

Re: First serial produced Mig-35's delivered

Unread postPosted: 08 Nov 2019, 05:11
by knowan
vladimir wrote:Su-30MKI didn't take part in those border skirmish.


https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/outgunn ... es-2044172
https://eurasiantimes.com/su-30-mki-vs- ... -missiles/
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 277222.cms


vladimir wrote:and carry R-77 missiles with better range than AMRAAM

and first launch R-27ER/ET


Image
Image
Image


vladimir wrote:It almost always works in DCS. :)


lol

Re: First serial produced Mig-35's delivered

Unread postPosted: 08 Nov 2019, 06:12
by XanderCrews
Would be really scary if the US didn't have it hands on MiGs before the wall fell, and then got to play fight them for years with the Germans after the wall fell.

Real scary stuff.

Re: First serial produced Mig-35's delivered

Unread postPosted: 08 Nov 2019, 16:32
by mixelflick
With respect to "you're extremely arrogant if you think F-16 hold any advantages over the Flanker..."

I merely stated the FACTS of when these two engaged during the latest border skirmish. PAK F-16's fired AMRAAM's, IN SU-30MKI's evaded them (or so we're told). If the MKI has such a huge radar/weapons advantage, why didn't they detect/fire on PAK F-16's first? Where were the spent R-27/77 rounds? The downed F-16? It's pilot?? Were the SU-30's just highlighting their own defensive maneuvers for jollies?

You appear to have a bad case of F-16 Derangement Syndrome. Or perhaps MKI Derangement Syndrome. Nobody here ascribes "unbeatable" status to any aircraft, not even the F-22. It is what it is, and it wasn't a good showing for the MKI. Perhaps they'll have better luck next time. You know, with all the upgrades and such...

Re: First serial produced Mig-35's delivered

Unread postPosted: 08 Nov 2019, 18:24
by milosh
XanderCrews wrote:Would be really scary if the US didn't have it hands on MiGs before the wall fell, and then got to play fight them for years with the Germans after the wall fell.

Real scary stuff.


Nothing special would changed.

Iraq's MiG-29 didn't had R-73 and our MiG-29 weren't in working condition. Also both countries had lot less MiG-29 then US had F-15.

Re: First serial produced Mig-35's delivered

Unread postPosted: 09 Nov 2019, 05:18
by boilermaker
So I hear a J20 crashed and production is suspended. Anyone can confirm this? The SU57 was supposed to be canceled in 2018 but it seems like they will order some.

I think the issue with the Chinese is that copying engines is not like copying airframes. If you do not know what you are doing in terms of conceiving an engine, you are really working in the dark. The result is that you might end up spending more money and effort wasting time on a bad design before going back to square one on the drawing board, than if you started a normal incremental development.

Re: First serial produced Mig-35's delivered

Unread postPosted: 09 Nov 2019, 15:13
by mixelflick
boilermaker wrote:So I hear a J20 crashed and production is suspended. Anyone can confirm this? The SU57 was supposed to be canceled in 2018 but it seems like they will order some.

I think the issue with the Chinese is that copying engines is not like copying airframes. If you do not know what you are doing in terms of conceiving an engine, you are really working in the dark. The result is that you might end up spending more money and effort wasting time on a bad design before going back to square one on the drawing board, than if you started a normal incremental development.


No credible evidence of a J-20 crash that I can see. Besides, a crash would no more suspend/cancel the program than when the F-22/F-35 first crashes occurred.

Re: First serial produced Mig-35's delivered

Unread postPosted: 10 Nov 2019, 16:53
by vladimir
India signs USD700 million deal with Russia for 1,000 additional air-to-air missiles

The Indian Air Force (IAF) has signed deals with Russia worth about USD700 million for an additional 1,000 air-to-air missiles (AAMs) to arm its fleets of MiG and Sukhoi combat aircraft.
Military sources in Moscow and New Delhi told Jane’s on 30 July that the order for the AAMs, which was placed in early July, is for about 300 R-27 (AA-10 ‘Alamo’) infrared-guided (IR) or semi-active radar-guided, medium-to-long-range missiles; 300 R-73E (AA-11 ‘Archer’) IR-guided, short-range missiles; and 400 R-77 (AA-12 ‘Adder’) active radar-guided, medium-range missiles.

Source: https://www.janes.com/article/90192/ind ... r-missiles


Are the Indians so 'unhappy' with their Russian-built R-77s and other Russian-built 'air-to-air' missiles that they want 1000 more? :D And they are ready to pay $700.000 for each.
Of course, these are not earliest versions of R-73, R-77 and R-27, but the versions with extended ranges and better guidance.

R-73 range is increased from 30km to 40km.
R-77 from 80km to 110km.

If you compare an early version of R-77 with a later version of AMRAAM, of course AMRAAM is a better missile.

Read this:
https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/indian- ... uk-1204336

Indian Air Force Sukhois Dominate UK Fighter Jets in Combat Exercises

Image

NEW DELHI: In some of the most intense international air combat exercises ever featuring the Indian Air Force, IAF pilots flying Sukhoi Su-30 MKI fighters had a resounding 12-0 scoreline in their favour against Royal Air Force Typhoon jets in Within Visual Range (WVR) dogfighting operations.


I find this part very funny:
Notably, in the exercise where a lone Su-30 was engaged by two Typhoons, the IAF jet emerged the victor 'shooting' down both 'enemy' jets.

:D

Also, read this:
https://militarywatchmagazine.com/artic ... -air-force

K-77 will be an awesome missile, no doubt. AESA radar and ramjet engine will make R-77 really lethal not just from medium ranges, but also from long ranges.

And the Indians are pretty much completely free to buy anything they want from the West, Israel... they have bought dont-know-how-many Apaches & Chinooks and 6 Scorpene-class submarines, for example. No political pressures, no restrictions for them. So over the last 15 years they've chosen to buy 272 Su-30MKIs (want 12 more more), 69 MIG-29UPGs (want 21 more), 45 MiG-29Ks (want probably 45 more for their 2nd aircraft carrier) and only 36 Rafales.

So in total they've so far ordered 464 Russian fighter jets and only 36 Western (French) fighter jets.

464 vs 36 'score' is telling us something.

My country is also ordering R-77s, like the Indians, for upgraded MiG-29s (along with unknown number of Pantsir-S2s, 4 MiG-35Ms and training for S-400 - no one knows what does training of our air defense crews mean exactly), but I think it would be smarter for us to wait a little bit more till the end of the development of AESA radar for MiG-35 and K-77 and then buy it. We have territorials disputes with some of our neighbors and it is better that we are better armed than them, it is good if we have decent Air Force, Air Defense Forces and 285km range ballistic missiles (Sumadija MLRS).

Also, read this:
http://mil.today/2019/Science35/
Vega Group Presented Air-Based Mini Radar

At the MAKS-2019 airshow, designers of Vega presented the synthetic aperture radar RSA 0.1. The company’s representatives told Mil.Press Today that the distinctive features of the radar were its weight/dimensions characteristics: the compact transceiver weighs only 9.6 kg, and the antenna tips the scale at 1.2 kg.
Mikhail Kaplin, an engineer at Vega assures that the radar’s small size do not affect the scanning accuracy.
"Its resolution is 0.1 meter. That means if the distance between two objects is more than 10 cm, we can classify them as different assets even from 20 kilometers", explained the engineer.

Re: First serial produced Mig-35's delivered

Unread postPosted: 10 Nov 2019, 19:40
by disconnectedradical
wrightwing wrote:The Su-30s have a more powerful radar, but that doesn't mean that they have a first look advantage over an F-16. The Su-30 In a combat configuration probably has a RCS of >20m^2. The F-16 is likely closer to 3m^2. When quoting radar ranges, it's helpful to know not only what they're talking about, but what you're talking about.


Physical size shouldn't be used to determine RCS. Are you sure F-16 has 3m^2 RCS with weapons? I don't know why you're just assuming an F-16 with combat load would automatically have lower RCS.

Re: First serial produced Mig-35's delivered

Unread postPosted: 11 Nov 2019, 02:54
by Corsair1963
LOL :lmao:

Re: First serial produced Mig-35's delivered

Unread postPosted: 11 Nov 2019, 03:50
by charlielima223
@ Vlad

1. How many Russian built platforms use western (United States or even French) ordnance and vice versa? I dont remember seeing Polish Mig-29s flying with AIM-7s or Sidewinders. India buying Russian weapons for their Russian aircraft means nothing.

2. It is hard to find an article in mainstream news outlet that isnt nationalistic chest thumping when one nations fighter aircraft flies with/against another.
I remember when Indian news was feeling high and mighty when Indian Air Force Su-30s said they "bested" US F-15s flown by USAF pilots (people still point to that event). Turns out that the USAF pilots weren't high timers and that the ROEs were heavily restricted against the F-15s and that the capabilities of the F-15 were severly handicaped (couldnt engage BVR and couldnt use JHMCs for WVR). Indian Air Force Su-30s went to Alaska against more veteran pilots where F-15s werent handicaped; complete opposite of results.
Then there was the German Typhoons against F-22s in Alaska's Northern Edge exercise... oh boy. The chest thumping and ignorant poop throwing that came out of that.
Ask anyone here about press released results of dogfights in training and exercises and they will tell you the released results (though fun to talk and debate about) are useless without indepth context. Example was that Typhoon vs Raptor event mentioned earlier. Typhoon fans were all over it claiming that the Typhoon can outmanuever the Raptor. What most media outlets and individuals fail to mention was that the Typhoons were flying slick and light.

3. Indian military procurement is a giant headache. Somehow they botched the Rafale and beat their small arms development to an unnoticeable pulpy mess... INSAS fiasco. India is going to the Flanker because its what they know and as mentioned earlier, they F-ed up their deal for the Rafale. This doesnt automatically mean Su-30 is better and the Rafale isn't.

4. Most media outlets from Russia or using Russian sources are often over claimed. Dont be surprised when others here look at sources with caution or distrust.

5. You're a guest here at others discretion.

Re: First serial produced Mig-35's delivered

Unread postPosted: 11 Nov 2019, 07:05
by XanderCrews
Vlad buddy, You need to pace yourself, if you promote this stuff too much you won't be able to dismiss the inevitable combat losses as "downgraded models" like we have been hearing the last 50 years.

You're gonna give yourself a heart attack. This job isn't worth it. You get paid either way to post propaganda. And its more believable when you tone it down.

Im sure these aircraft will be just as amazing as the MiGs and Sukhois the west has been using to inflate their kill stats the last few decades as any others, no better no worse.

me personally I'm just over Russian Gear, I've been hearing the hype for 30 years, and they just get annihilated time and again. And then they roll out some new super fighter, thats a rehash of the ones that have been punching bags the whole time. I just can't get excited anymore.

Re: First serial produced Mig-35's delivered

Unread postPosted: 11 Nov 2019, 07:27
by disconnectedradical
The original R-77/RVV-AE was quite awful, the Indians were NOT happy with them at all. Russian Air Force didn't even bother with it until the improved R-77-1/RVV-SD came out which was only recently.

Re: First serial produced Mig-35's delivered

Unread postPosted: 11 Nov 2019, 11:54
by milosh
Yes R-77 India have isn't good as modern BVR missiles and have problems but when Indians bought them they were lot better then what Pakistan had and as good as what Chinese had plus India got Su-30 with phased radar which was nice boost to multi target capability.

Today R-77 are absolute, and India plan to replace them with couple of noticeable better missiles (R-77-1, Astra, Derby-ER) which in combination with PESA radar will again allow them to have advantage over Pakistan.

And they will have Meteors but those are primary to counter Chinese.

Re: First serial produced Mig-35's delivered

Unread postPosted: 11 Nov 2019, 13:22
by madrat
Meteors offer leverage over Pakistan. Do they over China?

Re: First serial produced Mig-35's delivered

Unread postPosted: 11 Nov 2019, 14:36
by wrightwing
disconnectedradical wrote:
wrightwing wrote:The Su-30s have a more powerful radar, but that doesn't mean that they have a first look advantage over an F-16. The Su-30 In a combat configuration probably has a RCS of >20m^2. The F-16 is likely closer to 3m^2. When quoting radar ranges, it's helpful to know not only what they're talking about, but what you're talking about.


Physical size shouldn't be used to determine RCS. Are you sure F-16 has 3m^2 RCS with weapons? I don't know why you're just assuming an F-16 with combat load would automatically have lower RCS.

I wasn't using physical size. Clean Flankers have a huge RCS even before you start adding weapons. An A2A configured F-16 is going to have a huge RCS advantage over a Flanker, which goes a long way in mitigating differences in radar performance.

Re: First serial produced Mig-35's delivered

Unread postPosted: 11 Nov 2019, 16:48
by milosh
wrightwing wrote:I wasn't using physical size. Clean Flankers have a huge RCS even before you start adding weapons. An A2A configured F-16 is going to have a huge RCS advantage over a Flanker, which goes a long way in mitigating differences in radar performance.


RCS isn't problem, problem is missile. Both planes will detect each other on much longer distances then what is missile effective range and effective range is where F-16 with AIM-120C have advantage over Su-30 and R-77.

Btw for armed F-16 you don't just count missiles you need to count fuel tanks, and fuel tank RCS is huge if it isn't ideal scenario (head on scenario).

Re: First serial produced Mig-35's delivered

Unread postPosted: 11 Nov 2019, 18:24
by wrightwing
milosh wrote:RCS isn't problem, problem is missile. Both planes will detect each other on much longer distances then what is missile effective range and effective range is where F-16 with AIM-120C have advantage over Su-30 and R-77.


This was the point I was making. The difference in RCS negates the differences in radars, making the missile performance the determining factor.

Btw for armed F-16 you don't just count missiles you need to count fuel tanks, and fuel tank RCS is huge if it isn't ideal scenario (head on scenario).


I was including fuel tanks. The point here is that a clean Su-30 likely has a larger RCS, than any F-16 configuration. Once you hang weapons on an Su-30, it only gets worse.

Re: First serial produced Mig-35's delivered

Unread postPosted: 11 Nov 2019, 21:26
by Tiger05
vladimir wrote:Read this:
NEW DELHI: In some of the most intense international air combat exercises ever featuring the Indian Air Force, IAF pilots flying Sukhoi Su-30 MKI fighters had a resounding 12-0 scoreline in their favour against Royal Air Force Typhoon jets in Within Visual Range (WVR) dogfighting operations.


Nice chest-thumping story. The reality, however, was quite different and the IAF itself backed down on those claims:

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 426394.cms

But hey, never let the truth get in the way of a good story. :wink:

Re: First serial produced Mig-35's delivered

Unread postPosted: 11 Nov 2019, 21:28
by swiss
wrightwing wrote:I was including fuel tanks. The point here is that a clean Su-30 likely has a larger RCS, than any F-16 configuration. Once you hang weapons on an Su-30, it only gets worse.


I would said your figures for the Su-30 and F-16 sounds realistic. Indian Mod said the MKI has an RCS of 20m2. And there are several sources confirming a clean F-16 has an RCS of roughly 1m2.

And the APG-68 and Bars are roughly on the same level range wise. Although the f-16 Radar has the far better resolution in SAR Mode.

But as milosh pointed out, the main problem for all Russian fighters is the short Range of their BVR Weapons. Compere to the western missiles.

Re: First serial produced Mig-35's delivered

Unread postPosted: 11 Nov 2019, 21:39
by XanderCrews
Tiger05 wrote:Nice chest-thumping story. The reality, however, was quite different and the IAF itself backed down on those claims:

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 426394.cms

But hey, never let the truth get in the way of a good story. :wink:


From "Dominating" to "no one really wins or loses"


:doh: :doh: :doh:

Re: First serial produced Mig-35's delivered

Unread postPosted: 12 Nov 2019, 02:18
by Corsair1963
You think India would have learned from the last couple of exercises???

:?

Re: First serial produced Mig-35's delivered

Unread postPosted: 12 Nov 2019, 03:24
by marsavian
https://www.forces.net/services/raf/raf ... ash-claims
https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p= ... count=1031

In real combat the Typhoons would spear the MKIs at long range with Meteors or Amraam at high altitude long before it got to any 'funky' TVC manuevering ;).

Re: First serial produced Mig-35's delivered

Unread postPosted: 12 Nov 2019, 08:03
by knowan
vladimir wrote:If you compare an early version of R-77 with a later version of AMRAAM, of course AMRAAM is a better missile.


That AIM-120 chart is for the AIM-120A, introduced in 1991.
The RVV-AE/R-77 was introduced in 1994.

Further, Pakistan was using the AIM-120C-5, introduced in 1996, only 2 years newer than the RVV-AE, and over 20 years old in 2019.


disconnectedradical wrote:The original R-77/RVV-AE was quite awful, the Indians were NOT happy with them at all. Russian Air Force didn't even bother with it until the improved R-77-1/RVV-SD came out which was only recently.


R-77-1 is not that much better than the original; it is still substantially shorter ranged than AIM-120C/D.

And given Russian jets in high priority areas like Kaliningrad and the Black Sea are still flying with R-27s, it looks like Russia is struggling to produce a useful number of the missiles.

Re: First serial produced Mig-35's delivered

Unread postPosted: 12 Nov 2019, 08:54
by Corsair1963
knowan wrote:
R-77-1 is not that much better than the original; it is still substantially shorter ranged than AIM-120C/D.

And given Russian jets in high priority areas like Kaliningrad and the Black Sea are still flying with R-27s, it looks like Russia is struggling to produce a useful number of the missiles.


Yes, not uncommon to see Russian Fighters flying around armed with R-27 /AA-10 Alamo Missiles. Which, are equivalent to later models of the AIM-7 Sparrow........

:shock:

Re: First serial produced Mig-35's delivered

Unread postPosted: 12 Nov 2019, 16:45
by milosh
knowan wrote:R-77-1 is not that much better than the original; it is still substantially shorter ranged than AIM-120C/D.

And given Russian jets in high priority areas like Kaliningrad and the Black Sea are still flying with R-27s, it looks like Russia is struggling to produce a useful number of the missiles.


Same company is making R-37 and R-77 seekers so R-37 is probable priority especially if you check R-27ER1 capabilities. With PESA radars there isn't some huge benefit of R-77-1 over R-27ER1. In fact I would even say R-27ER1 is probable better in terminal phase if missile speed is low (grid fins aren't efficient when speed drops below Mach 2) To me R-77 wasn't design to be excellent BVR missile (Soviets were working on R-37 and R-27ER) but to be jack of all trades (excellent low BVR range capability which grid fins provide at higher Mach numbers).

Re: First serial produced Mig-35's delivered

Unread postPosted: 13 Nov 2019, 00:17
by vladimir
My country is also ordering extended-range R-77s (R-77-1/RVV-SD, 110km range), like the Indians, for upgraded MiG-29s (along with unknown number of Pantsir-S2s, 4 MiG-35Ms helicopters and training of our Air Defence crews for S-400 - currently, no one knows what does those S-400 trainings mean exactly), but perhaps it would be smarter for us to wait a little bit more till the end of the development of AESA radar for MiG-35 and K-77 AESA/ramjet version and then buy it for our 29s, instead of Zhuk-ME (or PESA Zhuk) and R-77-1. We have territorials disputes with some of our neighbors and it is better that we are better armed than them, it is nice if we have decent Air Force, Air Defense Forces and 285km range ballistic missiles (Sumadija MLRS).

Here is data from the producer of those missiles:
Air-to-Air Guided Missile RVV-AE
http://eng.ktrv.ru/production/military_ ... vv-ae.html
Launch range, km: max, in front hemisphere 80 km


Air-to-Air Medium Range Missile RVV-SD
http://eng.ktrv.ru/production/military_ ... vv-sd.html
up to 110 km

Re: First serial produced Mig-35's delivered

Unread postPosted: 13 Nov 2019, 00:28
by vladimir
swiss wrote:
wrightwing wrote:I was including fuel tanks. The point here is that a clean Su-30 likely has a larger RCS, than any F-16 configuration. Once you hang weapons on an Su-30, it only gets worse.


I would said your figures for the Su-30 and F-16 sounds realistic. Indian Mod said the MKI has an RCS of 20m2. And there are several sources confirming a clean F-16 has an RCS of roughly 1m2.

And the APG-68 and Bars are roughly on the same level range wise. Although the f-16 Radar has the far better resolution in SAR Mode.

But as milosh pointed out, the main problem for all Russian fighters is the short Range of their BVR Weapons. Compere to the western missiles.


140km ragne of N011M Bars PESA radar (against a RCS=5m2 aircraft) vs 85km range of APG-68(V)9 is not a small difference.

Also, read this:

http://mil.today/2019/Science35/

Vega Group Presented Air-Based Mini Radar

At the MAKS-2019 airshow, designers of Vega presented the synthetic aperture radar RSA 0.1. The company’s representatives told Mil.Press Today that the distinctive features of the radar were its weight/dimensions characteristics: the compact transceiver weighs only 9.6 kg, and the antenna tips the scale at 1.2 kg.
Mikhail Kaplin, an engineer at Vega assures that the radar’s small size do not affect the scanning accuracy.
"Its resolution is 0.1 meter. That means if the distance between two objects is more than 10 cm, we can classify them as different assets even from 20 kilometers", explained the engineer.


So from publicly available data we see that 0,1m is the best SAR resolution of a Russian-built radar, not 3m (or 1m or 0,5m at best) like some of you claim on this forum.

We can realistically expect AESA radar in MiG-35 will have ~0,1m SAR resolution and ~200km detection range against a RCS=5m2 aircraft. Compare it to APG-68(V)9's 85km range against a RCS=5m and 2 feet (0,6m) SAR resolution.
So MiG-35 will be a way better aircraft than F-16C Block 52 and comparable only to F-16 Block 60/70/72.

Also, Okhotnik-B UCAV will probably have some kind of AESA radar with 0,1m SAR resolution (from 20km) and 0,25m (from 80km). Not bad at all.

Re: First serial produced Mig-35's delivered

Unread postPosted: 13 Nov 2019, 01:10
by Corsair1963
milosh wrote:
knowan wrote:R-77-1 is not that much better than the original; it is still substantially shorter ranged than AIM-120C/D.

And given Russian jets in high priority areas like Kaliningrad and the Black Sea are still flying with R-27s, it looks like Russia is struggling to produce a useful number of the missiles.


Same company is making R-37 and R-77 seekers so R-37 is probable priority especially if you check R-27ER1 capabilities. With PESA radars there isn't some huge benefit of R-77-1 over R-27ER1. In fact I would even say R-27ER1 is probable better in terminal phase if missile speed is low (grid fins aren't efficient when speed drops below Mach 2) To me R-77 wasn't design to be excellent BVR missile (Soviets were working on R-37 and R-27ER) but to be jack of all trades (excellent low BVR range capability which grid fins provide at higher Mach numbers).


Point is near Russian Missiles are effective counterparts to Western Types. Just ask India...

Re: First serial produced Mig-35's delivered

Unread postPosted: 13 Nov 2019, 03:43
by knowan
Corsair1963 wrote:Yes, not uncommon to see Russian Fighters flying around armed with R-27 /AA-10 Alamo Missiles. Which, are equivalent to later models of the AIM-7 Sparrow........

:shock:


More than uncommon; every single intercept video I've looked at has the Flankers armed with R-27s.

Near as I can tell, the only R-77-1 deployment has been with Su-35s in Syria.


milosh wrote:Same company is making R-37 and R-77 seekers so R-37 is probable priority especially if you check R-27ER1 capabilities. With PESA radars there isn't some huge benefit of R-77-1 over R-27ER1. In fact I would even say R-27ER1 is probable better in terminal phase if missile speed is low (grid fins aren't efficient when speed drops below Mach 2) To me R-77 wasn't design to be excellent BVR missile (Soviets were working on R-37 and R-27ER) but to be jack of all trades (excellent low BVR range capability which grid fins provide at higher Mach numbers).


R-27ER1 doesn't sound very good according to Russian and Ukranian sources, with claims of only 93 to 100 km maximum range:
http://roe.ru/eng/catalog/aerospace-sys ... e/r-27er1/
http://www.artem.ua/en/produktsiya/avia ... es-r-27er1

And I suspect you might be right about the R-77 design goal; the grid fins seem counterproductive for a BVR missile. Interestingly, the K-77M reportedly changes to more conventional fins, which will likely result in a missile much more competitive with the AIM-120.

Re: First serial produced Mig-35's delivered

Unread postPosted: 13 Nov 2019, 11:55
by hornetfinn
I agree that the true Achilles heel of Russian fighters are the weapons and then avionics. R-77 and R-27 variants are mostly inferior to current versions of AMRAAM, Meteor and even the much smaller MICA and I-Derby-ER missiles. That's natural as the Russian missiles are old designs with very limited upgrades. They are basically equivalent to AIM-120A/B and AIM-7M respectively.

R-73 was a really good missile in 1980s, but nowadays even the latest variants have been taken over by a number of IR missiles. RVV-BD missile is likely powerful, but also a lot bigger than Meteor or AIM-120D which also have rather impressive range. So only the biggest fighters can use it when Meteor can be used by Gripen.

In avionics department they have some good and powerful systems, but technologically struggle in many areas. Other countries are using AESA radars in large numbers and couple of generations newer IRST systems. Sensor fusion systems are used in many newer Western aircraft also. Of course they are developing their systems, but have a long way to go before catching up to current Western capabilities there.

Re: First serial produced Mig-35's delivered

Unread postPosted: 13 Nov 2019, 21:11
by vladimir
hornetfinn wrote:I agree that the true Achilles heel of Russian fighters are the weapons and then avionics. R-77 and R-27 variants are mostly inferior to current versions of AMRAAM, Meteor and even the much smaller MICA and I-Derby-ER missiles. That's natural as the Russian missiles are old designs with very limited upgrades. They are basically equivalent to AIM-120A/B and AIM-7M respectively.

R-73 was a really good missile in 1980s, but nowadays even the latest variants have been taken over by a number of IR missiles. RVV-BD missile is likely powerful, but also a lot bigger than Meteor or AIM-120D which also have rather impressive range. So only the biggest fighters can use it when Meteor can be used by Gripen.

In avionics department they have some good and powerful systems, but technologically struggle in many areas. Other countries are using AESA radars in large numbers and couple of generations newer IRST systems. Sensor fusion systems are used in many newer Western aircraft also. Of course they are developing their systems, but have a long way to go before catching up to current Western capabilities there.


Yeah, their missile and avionics technology is so 'backward' that their arms export is the 2nd largest in the world, some 15 billion $ each year. :)

Like I said, India is free to choose pretty much anything they want from anyone (both Russia and the West), and during the previous 15 years they've chosen to order 464 Russian-built fighter aircrafts Su-30MKI, MiG-29K/KUB/UPG and only 36 Rafales (and now additional 1000 air-to-air missiles for those jets and S-400... and many other stuffs).

https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2019/09/ ... ays-a67153

India's Russian Arms Purchases Hit 'Breakthrough' $14.5Bln, Official Says

India has ordered a “breakthrough” $14.5 billion of Russian-made weapons since last year despite sanctions pressure from the United States, Russia’s Federal Service for Military and Technical Cooperation (FSVTS) has said.
India is the largest buyer of Russian military hardware, having signed a $5 billion deal for Russian S-400 surface to air missile systems last year.


For those who believe Russian industry can't make an airborne AESA radar:

https://www.janes.com/article/92063/rus ... aesa-radar

Russia’s Ka-52M combat helicopter to receive AESA radar

Russia's new Ka-52M combat helicopter will receive new targeting sensors instead of upgraded versions of present systems.

The new V006 Rezets (Cutter) active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar is being developed by the St Petersburg-based Zaslon company for the modernised helicopter. ...
The Rezets radar for the Ka-52 has a fixed 900×300 mm AESA antenna with 640 transceiver modules.


I don't like citing rubbish sites like 'National Interest', but this time I will make an exception. SOMETIMES they have decent articles (though rarely). :)

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/ ... nato-31067

This New Russian Plane Could Cause Some Serious Problems for NATO
Don't forget about the importance of AWACS.
...
With its new AESA radar, the A-100 should offer an enormous improvement in detection and tracking capability against both air and surface contacts compared to the current A-50 and A-50U. However, it is unclear how well the new system will compare to existing Western systems such as the U.S. Air Force’s E-3 Sentry, however it is very possible that the A-100’s AESA technology will give the Russian jet an edge over the American aircraft. The latest E-3G Block 40/45 use the Northrop Grumman APY- 2, which uses a passive phased array antenna to scan vertically in the S-band while it scans mechanically in the azimuth.

Re: First serial produced Mig-35's delivered

Unread postPosted: 14 Nov 2019, 06:01
by boilermaker
It is pretty dumb to rely on equipment that the Chinese will use against you. Russians have built in systems that prevent a Russian made missile from shooting Russian made equipment.

It would behove on India to have more systems outside Russia because I am pretty sure the Chinese know those systems well already.

Re: First serial produced Mig-35's delivered

Unread postPosted: 14 Nov 2019, 14:05
by hornetfinn
vladimir wrote:Yeah, their missile and avionics technology is so 'backward' that their arms export is the 2nd largest in the world, some 15 billion $ each year. :)

Like I said, India is free to choose pretty much anything they want from anyone (both Russia and the West), and during the previous 15 years they've chosen to order 464 Russian-built fighter aircrafts Su-30MKI, MiG-29K/KUB/UPG and only 36 Rafales (and now additional 1000 air-to-air missiles for those jets and S-400... and many other stuffs).


Is that why India has been actively seeking I-Derby-ER missile to replace R-77s and ASRAAM to replace R-73 for their Sukhois?

How about their Sukhois having French and Israeli avionics systems like HUD and EW system?

vladimir wrote:For those who believe Russian industry can't make an airborne AESA radar:

https://www.janes.com/article/92063/rus ... aesa-radar

Russia’s Ka-52M combat helicopter to receive AESA radar

Russia's new Ka-52M combat helicopter will receive new targeting sensors instead of upgraded versions of present systems.

The new V006 Rezets (Cutter) active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar is being developed by the St Petersburg-based Zaslon company for the modernised helicopter. ...
The Rezets radar for the Ka-52 has a fixed 900×300 mm AESA antenna with 640 transceiver modules.


I don't like citing rubbish sites like 'National Interest', but this time I will make an exception. SOMETIMES they have decent articles (though rarely). :)

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/ ... nato-31067

This New Russian Plane Could Cause Some Serious Problems for NATO
Don't forget about the importance of AWACS.
...
With its new AESA radar, the A-100 should offer an enormous improvement in detection and tracking capability against both air and surface contacts compared to the current A-50 and A-50U. However, it is unclear how well the new system will compare to existing Western systems such as the U.S. Air Force’s E-3 Sentry, however it is very possible that the A-100’s AESA technology will give the Russian jet an edge over the American aircraft. The latest E-3G Block 40/45 use the Northrop Grumman APY- 2, which uses a passive phased array antenna to scan vertically in the S-band while it scans mechanically in the azimuth.


We'll see when those become operational. USA has had operational airborne AESA systems for about 20 years. For AWACS there is E-7 Wedgetail which became operational in RAAF almost 10 years ago. But E-3 is still very good AWACS with enormous reach and processing power. Sure modern AESA variant would have better performance but it will be rather costly and currently there is no real need. USAF, NATO and some other countries can definitely just buy the E-7 in that case.

Re: First serial produced Mig-35's delivered

Unread postPosted: 14 Nov 2019, 14:22
by knowan
hornetfinn wrote:How about their Sukhois having French and Israeli avionics systems like HUD and EW system?


French and Israeli radar and EW systems are common on Indian Navy warships too.


hornetfinn wrote:We'll see when those become operational. USA has had operational airborne AESA systems for about 20 years. For AWACS there is E-7 Wedgetail which became operational in RAAF almost 10 years ago. But E-3 is still very good AWACS with enormous reach and processing power. Sure modern AESA variant would have better performance but it will be rather costly and currently there is no real need. USAF, NATO and some other countries can definitely just buy the E-7 in that case.


Don't forget the E-2D; the AN/APY-9 is AESA.

Re: First serial produced Mig-35's delivered

Unread postPosted: 14 Nov 2019, 17:17
by milosh
knowan wrote:Don't forget the E-2D; the AN/APY-9 is AESA.


It doesn't use normal AESA modules but simple antennas like NEBO SVU radar so you can't count it as something comparable to E-7, KJ-2000, A-50EI (Indian A-50 with Israel AESA radar) or A-100.

Re: First serial produced Mig-35's delivered

Unread postPosted: 15 Nov 2019, 09:42
by boilermaker
hornetfinn wrote:
vladimir wrote:Yeah, their missile and avionics technology is so 'backward' that their arms export is the 2nd largest in the world, some 15 billion $ each year. :)

Like I said, India is free to choose pretty much anything they want from anyone (both Russia and the West), and during the previous 15 years they've chosen to order 464 Russian-built fighter aircrafts Su-30MKI, MiG-29K/KUB/UPG and only 36 Rafales (and now additional 1000 air-to-air missiles for those jets and S-400... and many other stuffs).


Is that why India has been actively seeking I-Derby-ER missile to replace R-77s and ASRAAM to replace R-73 for their Sukhois?

How about their Sukhois having French and Israeli avionics systems like HUD and EW system?

vladimir wrote:For those who believe Russian industry can't make an airborne AESA radar:

https://www.janes.com/article/92063/rus ... aesa-radar

Russia’s Ka-52M combat helicopter to receive AESA radar

Russia's new Ka-52M combat helicopter will receive new targeting sensors instead of upgraded versions of present systems.

The new V006 Rezets (Cutter) active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar is being developed by the St Petersburg-based Zaslon company for the modernised helicopter. ...
The Rezets radar for the Ka-52 has a fixed 900×300 mm AESA antenna with 640 transceiver modules.


I don't like citing rubbish sites like 'National Interest', but this time I will make an exception. SOMETIMES they have decent articles (though rarely). :)

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/ ... nato-31067

This New Russian Plane Could Cause Some Serious Problems for NATO
Don't forget about the importance of AWACS.
...
With its new AESA radar, the A-100 should offer an enormous improvement in detection and tracking capability against both air and surface contacts compared to the current A-50 and A-50U. However, it is unclear how well the new system will compare to existing Western systems such as the U.S. Air Force’s E-3 Sentry, however it is very possible that the A-100’s AESA technology will give the Russian jet an edge over the American aircraft. The latest E-3G Block 40/45 use the Northrop Grumman APY- 2, which uses a passive phased array antenna to scan vertically in the S-band while it scans mechanically in the azimuth.


We'll see when those become operational. USA has had operational airborne AESA systems for about 20 years. For AWACS there is E-7 Wedgetail which became operational in RAAF almost 10 years ago. But E-3 is still very good AWACS with enormous reach and processing power. Sure modern AESA variant would have better performance but it will be rather costly and currently there is no real need. USAF, NATO and some other countries can definitely just buy the E-7 in that case.


I actually heard that systems like AWACS and JSTARS would be phased out for space based systems doing the same thing along with drones.

Re: First serial produced Mig-35's delivered

Unread postPosted: 15 Nov 2019, 12:22
by hornetfinn
boilermaker wrote:I actually heard that systems like AWACS and JSTARS would be phased out for space based systems doing the same thing along with drones.


I doubt that space based systems will replace those capabilties. IMO, it's just too problematic and expensive to do that. Now space based systems and drones might well be used by AWACS/JSTARS. It might well be that the huge radar array in those aircraft is replaced or at least supported by distributed system with multiple smaller radars and other sensors in drones and space systems. Main task for those aircraft is battlefield management and C&C and the sensors could well be placed in other systems. I see very real possibility of having a swarm of large drones with AESA radar, ESM/EW systems and a very long range EO/IR sensor for a target ID for example. Of course nothing (except money) stops having those drones and space systems and also huge AESA radar on the AWACS/JSTARS aircraft.

Re: First serial produced Mig-35's delivered

Unread postPosted: 15 Nov 2019, 15:10
by swiss
hornetfinn wrote:Is that why India has been actively seeking I-Derby-ER missile to replace R-77s and ASRAAM to replace R-73 for their Sukhois?



I assume it's not the easy, to integrate western missiles in to a russian system.

Re: First serial produced Mig-35's delivered

Unread postPosted: 15 Nov 2019, 19:10
by milosh
Indian Flankers will have most intersting AAM capability as it look like in near future.

R-27ER1, R-77 (probable new version), domestic Astra and very likely Derby-ER.

We don't need to exclude R-37 becuase integration for Flanker in on the way. Carrying two between engines will not be big penality for Su-30MKI and with engine upgrade four R-37 wouldn't be problem either in combination with other AAMs. But R-37 MKI would need new radar to achieve full capability.

Re: First serial produced Mig-35's delivered

Unread postPosted: 15 Nov 2019, 23:46
by madrat
milosh wrote:Indian Flankers will have most intersting AAM capability as it look like in near future.

R-27ER1, R-77 (probable new version), domestic Astra and very likely Derby-ER.

We don't need to exclude R-37 becuase integration for Flanker in on the way. Carrying two between engines will not be big penality for Su-30MKI and with engine upgrade four R-37 wouldn't be problem either in combination with other AAMs. But R-37 MKI would need new radar to achieve full capability.

Wouldn't you mount them under the intakes? Cutting airflow under the plane would be fine if you never intended to drop them. I thought the MiG-31 dropped them down into the airflow for deployment off a rail. I'd think deployment from the center-line position(s) - between engine pods and not into clean airflow - would be a potential hazard in this case.

Re: First serial produced Mig-35's delivered

Unread postPosted: 24 Nov 2019, 01:05
by vladimir
hornetfinn wrote:
vladimir wrote:Yeah, their missile and avionics technology is so 'backward' that their arms export is the 2nd largest in the world, some 15 billion $ each year. :)

Like I said, India is free to choose pretty much anything they want from anyone (both Russia and the West), and during the previous 15 years they've chosen to order 464 Russian-built fighter aircrafts Su-30MKI, MiG-29K/KUB/UPG and only 36 Rafales (and now additional 1000 air-to-air missiles for those jets and S-400... and many other stuffs).


Is that why India has been actively seeking I-Derby-ER missile to replace R-77s and ASRAAM to replace R-73 for their Sukhois?


India is NOT seeking I-Derby-ER missile to replace R-77 and SRAAM to replace R-73 for their Sukhois. Those are speculations and fake news, nothing more. No contract was signed for I-Derby-ER or ASRAAM, but the fact is that they are ordering another batch of 1000 R-77 and R-73 missiles, the contract is already signed.

On the contrary, Russian-built R-73s are carried by their French-built Mirage-2000s. Sukhois and MiGs don’t carry non-Russian missiles.

BrahMos missiles will soon be carried by Sukhois and Indian-built Astra air-to-air missiles are basically Russian technology and know-how.

hornetfinn wrote:How about their Sukhois having French and Israeli avionics systems like HUD and EW system?


So what?

It doesn't prove anything.

Don't forget that the majority of avionics in Indian Su-30MKI, MiG-29K and MiG-29UGP is Russian-made and that they have Russian-made N-011M Bars and Zhuk-ME radars. Back in the 2000s the Indians could choose some other radar, but they didn't.
Indian Mirage-2000 has Israeli-made HMD and Russian-made R-73 missiles... so if a French-made aircraft has Russian-made avionics, does it mean that French avionics is 'backward' when compared to Russian/Israeli avionics? :)
As far as I know, Israeli F-16I has a lot of non-US-made avionics: does it mean that US avionics is 'backward' when compared to Israeli avionics? :)

BTW, they are also negotiating with Russia for avionics upgrade for Su-30MKI. The first ones where delivered in 2004 and their avionics is now a little bit obsolete.
https://www.janes.com/article/91947/iaf ... h-fighters
IAF to upgrade its Su-30MKI fleet and acquire more such fighters

The Indian Air Force (IAF) aims to upgrade its fleet of Sukhoi Su-30MKI multirole fighters by equipping them with advanced avionics, radar, and weapon systems.
“We will upgrade the Su-30MKIs with [modern] radar and weapon capabilities and also tackle their obsolescence management and electronic warfare capabilities,” said Air Chief Marshal R K S Bhadauria during a 4 October press conference, but did not elaborate.


They could choose missiles and avionics from some other country for their Su-30MKIs, but they didn't.
Overall, Russian military-defense industry is highly-developed, they are the 2nd largest arms exporter in the world and their education in engineering, technical, natural sciences (math & physics) is quite good.

Re: First serial produced Mig-35's delivered

Unread postPosted: 24 Nov 2019, 12:23
by knowan
vladimir wrote:India is NOT seeking I-Derby-ER missile to replace R-77 and SRAAM to replace R-73 for their Sukhois. Those are speculations and fake news, nothing more.


Ah, the 'I don't like that, I'm gonna dismiss it as fake news!' defence, no evidence required!

Re: First serial produced Mig-35's delivered

Unread postPosted: 24 Nov 2019, 12:33
by milosh
madrat wrote:Wouldn't you mount them under the intakes? Cutting airflow under the plane would be fine if you never intended to drop them. I thought the MiG-31 dropped them down into the airflow for deployment off a rail. I'd think deployment from the center-line position(s) - between engine pods and not into clean airflow - would be a potential hazard in this case.


One big AA missile is inteneded to be carried in tunnel:
http://www.knaapo.ru/media/eng/about/pr ... et_eng.pdf

page 16

Re: First serial produced Mig-35's delivered

Unread postPosted: 24 Nov 2019, 12:45
by milosh
knowan wrote:
vladimir wrote:India is NOT seeking I-Derby-ER missile to replace R-77 and SRAAM to replace R-73 for their Sukhois. Those are speculations and fake news, nothing more.


Ah, the 'I don't like that, I'm gonna dismiss it as fake news!' defence, no evidence required!


He gave us evidence and that is deal to buy 1000 new Russian missiles. Why would India sign that deal if they are buy more missiles which are planing to replace? Of course maybe deal is signed but if it is then that is evidence they don't plan to dump R-77 nor R-73.

Re: First serial produced Mig-35's delivered

Unread postPosted: 24 Nov 2019, 18:11
by knowan
milosh wrote:He gave us evidence and that is deal to buy 1000 new Russian missiles. Why would India sign that deal if they are buy more missiles which are planing to replace? Of course maybe deal is signed but if it is then that is evidence they don't plan to dump R-77 nor R-73.


Because reality isn't black and white; buying Russian missiles does not mean 'Russian missiles good', there can be numerous reasons to buy the missiles even if India is less than satisfied with them.
Eg, history is filled with examples of inferior weapons being knowingly produced or purchased.

It takes a heavy amount of bias to look at the 1000 missiles thing and come to such a conclusion and dismiss contrary evidence out of hand; it's textbook nationalistic fanboy behaviour.

Hell, just looking into it will find more sources talking about it, such as Janes: https://www.janes.com/article/88867/iaf ... er-bvraams who quote official sources.

Re: First serial produced Mig-35's delivered

Unread postPosted: 24 Nov 2019, 20:32
by madrat
Surely they will not buy missiles that are less than optimal against their immediate regional competitors.

Re: First serial produced Mig-35's delivered

Unread postPosted: 24 Nov 2019, 22:18
by milosh
knowan wrote:Because reality isn't black and white; buying Russian missiles does not mean 'Russian missiles good', there can be numerous reasons to buy the missiles even if India is less than satisfied with them.
Eg, history is filled with examples of inferior weapons being knowingly produced or purchased.

It takes a heavy amount of bias to look at the 1000 missiles thing and come to such a conclusion and dismiss contrary evidence out of hand; it's textbook nationalistic fanboy behaviour.

Hell, just looking into it will find more sources talking about it, such as Janes: https://www.janes.com/article/88867/iaf ... er-bvraams who quote official sources.


Look if they don't plan to buy smaller amount of missiles for Russians then we can talk about replacingR-77 with some other missile. But if they buy lot of R-77 when they will be able to replace them? In late 2020s? What missile would be actual then?

That is why I find very fishy story about replacing R-77 with Derby BUT it could be pressure on Russians, for example lower price for R-77-1.

Btw official source isn't so serious in media even in west media, in indian media unnamed official is mostly journalist itself.

Re: First serial produced Mig-35's delivered

Unread postPosted: 25 Nov 2019, 09:10
by skyward
The order is not that big. It is just a so so size order if you factor in they have more then 250 SU-30mki. They only order 400 R-77. It is smaller order then the last one and with a larger fleet. They most likely plan on buying that number way before what happen on February and all the talk about the lower range of the R-77. We are talking about India here which is not the hallmark fast decision making.

Re: First serial produced Mig-35's delivered

Unread postPosted: 25 Nov 2019, 12:51
by hornetfinn
vladimir wrote:
hornetfinn wrote:
vladimir wrote:Yeah, their missile and avionics technology is so 'backward' that their arms export is the 2nd largest in the world, some 15 billion $ each year. :)

Like I said, India is free to choose pretty much anything they want from anyone (both Russia and the West), and during the previous 15 years they've chosen to order 464 Russian-built fighter aircrafts Su-30MKI, MiG-29K/KUB/UPG and only 36 Rafales (and now additional 1000 air-to-air missiles for those jets and S-400... and many other stuffs).


Is that why India has been actively seeking I-Derby-ER missile to replace R-77s and ASRAAM to replace R-73 for their Sukhois?


India is NOT seeking I-Derby-ER missile to replace R-77 and SRAAM to replace R-73 for their Sukhois. Those are speculations and fake news, nothing more. No contract was signed for I-Derby-ER or ASRAAM, but the fact is that they are ordering another batch of 1000 R-77 and R-73 missiles, the contract is already signed.


Could be but both of these are currently in evaluation and could become reality within few years. So there is no possibility of contract being signed yet.

vladimir wrote:On the contrary, Russian-built R-73s are carried by their French-built Mirage-2000s. Sukhois and MiGs don’t carry non-Russian missiles.


They did do that as a stop-gap measure as Magic 2:s were becoming obsolete and MICA would've required a lot more extensive upgrades as it's much more complex missile with data link, LOAL, BVR capability, imaging infrared seeker, advanced guidance methods (not just proportional navigation) and fully digital interfaces. Nowadays their upgraded
(since 2012) Mirages are using MICA missiles replacing previous missiles, including R-73.

R-73 is definitely a more capable weapon than Magic 2 overall with longer range and wider engagement cone. MICA is again a lot more capable missile than R-73 being clearly superior in pretty much everything.

vladimir wrote:
hornetfinn wrote:How about their Sukhois having French and Israeli avionics systems like HUD and EW system?


So what?

It doesn't prove anything.

Don't forget that the majority of avionics in Indian Su-30MKI, MiG-29K and MiG-29UGP is Russian-made and that they have Russian-made N-011M Bars and Zhuk-ME radars. Back in the 2000s the Indians could choose some other radar, but they didn't.
Indian Mirage-2000 has Israeli-made HMD and Russian-made R-73 missiles... so if a French-made aircraft has Russian-made avionics, does it mean that French avionics is 'backward' when compared to Russian/Israeli avionics? :)
As far as I know, Israeli F-16I has a lot of non-US-made avionics: does it mean that US avionics is 'backward' when compared to Israeli avionics? :)

BTW, they are also negotiating with Russia for avionics upgrade for Su-30MKI. The first ones where delivered in 2004 and their avionics is now a little bit obsolete.
https://www.janes.com/article/91947/iaf ... h-fighters
IAF to upgrade its Su-30MKI fleet and acquire more such fighters

The Indian Air Force (IAF) aims to upgrade its fleet of Sukhoi Su-30MKI multirole fighters by equipping them with advanced avionics, radar, and weapon systems.
“We will upgrade the Su-30MKIs with [modern] radar and weapon capabilities and also tackle their obsolescence management and electronic warfare capabilities,” said Air Chief Marshal R K S Bhadauria during a 4 October press conference, but did not elaborate.


They could choose missiles and avionics from some other country for their Su-30MKIs, but they didn't.
Overall, Russian military-defense industry is highly-developed, they are the 2nd largest arms exporter in the world and their education in engineering, technical, natural sciences (math & physics) is quite good.


Switching the radar to something else (especially from other country) would've been very costly and taken a lot of time as it's so central and complex part of the weapons system. It's very rare that customers of some fighter want to buy some other radar than what is standard in that particular fighter aircraft. Some older aircraft have been upgraded with newer radars, but not new fighters. Even then the radars are usually designed with similar standards and systems.

Then the missiles are usually pretty closely tied to the radar and weapons system in general, especially BVR weapons. It's rather expensive and laborous to integrate new missiles to the system. Basic heat seeking missiles like R-73 are easy to integrate as they don't need to talk to the weapons system that much. They can be integrated even to basic jet trainers with ease because they don't need much. So I don't think there is much Russian or derived avionics in Indian Mirages.

I didn't say that Russia didn't sell a lot of kit and that their weapons industry is poor compared to many others. I just pointed out that there are shortcomings that are most glaring. Russian air-to-air missiles are getting long in the tooth. I think it's a testament of how good missile R-73 was is that it's not totally obsolete by now been in service for 35 years. R-77 is also pretty old design in itself and hasn't received upgrades like equally old AIM-120 has several times. R-77 doesn't have two-way data link or GPS guidance augmentation like AIM-120 or Meteor. It seems to have significantly inferior range than either (with current AIM-120 models).

Basically to stay competitive in the future, they will need to introduce IIR seeking missiles with LOAL and BVR missile with significantly better performance than any variant of R-77. I'm sure they are working on both but we'll see when those become operational. Both of those are available to all Western fighters and are in widespread service already.

Re: First serial produced Mig-35's delivered

Unread postPosted: 25 Nov 2019, 15:54
by swiss
hornetfinn wrote:
vladimir wrote:On the contrary, Russian-built R-73s are carried by their French-built Mirage-2000s. Sukhois and MiGs don’t carry non-Russian missiles.


They did do that as a stop-gap measure as Magic 2:s were becoming obsolete and MICA would've required a lot more extensive upgrades as it's much more complex missile with data link, LOAL, BVR capability, imaging infrared seeker, advanced guidance methods (not just proportional navigation) and fully digital interfaces. Nowadays their upgraded
(since 2012) Mirages are using MICA missiles replacing previous missiles, including R-73.

R-73 is definitely a more capable weapon than Magic 2 overall with longer range and wider engagement cone. MICA is again a lot more capable missile than R-73 being clearly superior in pretty much everything.



This article exactly confirms your statement.

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/iafs-fr ... ad-2067318

And according to an IAF Pilot the Mica IR its about 4 times more capable then the R-73. I think this says enough.

The Russian R-73 missile is now in the process of being progressively replaced in the Indian Air Force. Since 2015, the Indian Air Force has been receiving heavily modified Mirage 2000s which are equipped with the French MICA air-to-air missile. Approximately one squadron or 18 Mirage 2000 jets have already been inducted by the IAF. "The Mica is about four times more capable than the R-73 in close combat and is integrated with the (Israeli) DASH helmet mounted sight as well," says an IAF pilot familiar with the upgrade process.

Re: First serial produced Mig-35's delivered

Unread postPosted: 25 Nov 2019, 16:19
by madrat
If R-73 is on order that would be less sense than R-77, considering India's access to better seekers. Surely Indian engineers can come up with something equal to the old R-73 by now. Twenty years ago this wasn't possible, but in 2019 is it still not?