F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 11 Jun 2019, 03:57
by rowbeartoe
While it seems the F-15X could provide some roles in the immediate future and even less in the distant future I have a MAJOR concern with making more of them vs other options.

The good and okay from how I see it: I think roles such as an interceptor, joint fighter with 5th gen jets (missile carrier or a decoy for example), or using it against other 4th gen fighters seem good. Even a Satellite killer isn't to bad. Also, while not cost affective, it could also be used in place of older F-15 upgrades as a "bonus".

The Bad from how I see it: Fighting 5th gen fighters or modern defenses is where I see the money being thrown away and even worse pilots getting injured or killed. I remember seeing videos of how 4 F-16's (my favorite) or 4 F-15's getting destroyed by an F-22 (A Jet with an introduction date of Dec 15th 2005- already 14 years ago!).

So the question is wouldn't it be better to pay more for the F-15 SE variant- something that should have a better chance in the future against modern adversities? Or perhaps just have more F-35s or spend more for a F-22 hybrid? Finally, why not just pay the extra cost for the F-22 reboot?

How I see it is, UNLESS radar in the future can render stealth and put everyone on the 4th gen playing field I just don't see how the F-15/F-16/F-18 can survive.

And I know it's not in the Subject line- but why not see if an F-16 stealth fighter can be made as a cheaper compliment to the F-35?

My point to all this is that I see little value in the F-15X vs other options for that kind of price being asked.
It should be noted- I'm not a military fighter pilot/expert. This is just based off of what I read from here and around.

Thank you everyone!

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 11 Jun 2019, 04:23
by wrightwing
rowbeartoe wrote:While it seems the F-15X could provide some roles in the immediate future and even less in the distant future I have a MAJOR concern with making more of them vs other options.

The good and okay from how I see it: I think roles such as an interceptor, joint fighter with 5th gen jets (missile carrier or a decoy for example), or using it against other 4th gen fighters seem good. Even a Satellite killer isn't to bad. Also, while not cost affective, it could also be used in place of older F-15 upgrades as a "bonus".

The Bad from how I see it: Fighting 5th gen fighters or modern defenses is where I see the money being thrown away and even worse pilots getting injured or killed. I remember seeing videos of how 4 F-16's (my favorite) or 4 F-15's getting destroyed by an F-22 (A Jet with an introduction date of Dec 15th 2005- already 14 years ago!).

So the question is wouldn't it be better to pay more for the F-15 SE variant- something that should have a better chance in the future against modern adversities? Or perhaps just have more F-35s or spend more for a F-22 hybrid? Finally, why not just pay the extra cost for the F-22 reboot?

How I see it is, UNLESS radar in the future can render stealth and put everyone on the 4th gen playing field I just don't see how the F-15/F-16/F-18 can survive.

And I know it's not in the Subject line- but why not see if an F-16 stealth fighter can be made as a cheaper compliment to the F-35?

My point to all this is that I see little value in the F-15X vs other options for that kind of price being asked.
It should be noted- I'm not a military fighter pilot/expert. This is just based off of what I read from here and around.

Thank you everyone!


There is no such thing as a stealth F-16, much less being cheaper than F-35s.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 11 Jun 2019, 06:58
by hornetfinn
wrightwing wrote:
rowbeartoe wrote:How I see it is, UNLESS radar in the future can render stealth and put everyone on the 4th gen playing field I just don't see how the F-15/F-16/F-18 can survive.

And I know it's not in the Subject line- but why not see if an F-16 stealth fighter can be made as a cheaper compliment to the F-35?


There is no such thing as a stealth F-16, much less being cheaper than F-35s.


Exactly. Basically F-35 is a stealth F-16 (similar role and dimensions) and there is no realistic way of making cheaper aircraft with good avionics and capabilities. Even currently F-35 is about the same price as 4++ gen fighters and seems to become cheaper than those aircraft pretty soon. Hell, even latest F-16 variants aren't really cheaper than F-35 AFAIK.

Also there is no realistic future radar which could level the playing field between VLO 5th gen fighters and earlier generation fighters. It would require totally unknown and unforeseen technologies and associated theories. Even if quantum radar becomes reality and works as advertised, it will still see 4th gen fighters much further away than 5th gen fighters. It could only have better capability against VLO targets than current radar systems as it could in theory better filter out real signals from background noise. But still the return from VLO targets are going to be much smaller than from 4th gen fighters and thus the range much shorter.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 11 Jun 2019, 10:17
by kei80
I can briefly list the below reasons for F-15X:

A) Requirement to replace old 4th Gen jets and F-35 production line is quite filled at this moment.(I maybe wrong)
B) New airframe with minimum cost. It is noted that aircraft cost is not the cheapest at this moment but there are cost-saving of reusing existing infrastructure, reduction in pilot training, low development cost are the main reasons.
C) Ability to carry larger weapons which cannot fit into F-35.
E) Maintain Boeing in jet business, if only left with LM, there will not be any competitive advantage in future jet competition.

I guess B) will answer your question of not getting F-22 , F-15SE as F-15X will be using existing upgrades done by overseas customer which bear some of the development cost.

About survivability of 4 or 5th gen jet against evolved threats, I guess there are future programs to take care of it but there are still conflicts happening in low-threat environment which a 4th gen jet can do the job and save airframe hours on 5th gen jet.

Anyway, above are just my 2cents.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 11 Jun 2019, 12:41
by madrat
I'm not interested in handouts to Boeing. What makes their design any more valid that previous generations of discontinued production lines? Lockheed Martin has no fewer than three families of product solutions that I'd build before F-15X: F-22, F-35, and F-16. I can consciously justify F-16 with CFT and an enlarged spine for maximum internal space much easier than an F-15.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 11 Jun 2019, 15:52
by disconnectedradical
I think at this time buying any F-15 variant is just waste of money. Even with F-15SE, you'll be paying huge money for something inferior to F-35. If you can throw that kind of money around you might as well restart F-22 production, which is also a bad idea but even that's better than this F-15EX nonsense.

F-35 production capacity is not even fully used yet, so just increase production if there's a problem with number of fighters. Also, use this pointless F-15EX money to fund F-22 MLU. For example, give it an IRST, more efficient engines, etc.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 11 Jun 2019, 16:03
by mixelflick
The only real solution is to just buy more F-35's/accelerate the buy.

There is nothing the Eagle can do that the F-35 can't, other than perhaps cost per flight hour. I would expect the F-35's to come down over time, just like with any new aircraft. The F-35 will be able to carry large, external weapons like hypersonics (where I think all of this originated from). It won't be as stealthy as internal carriage, but it will be infinitely better/lower RCS than the F-15X carrying the same.

This whole mess could have been avoided if the F-35 had more of an air superiority slant coming out of the gate. That isn't it's primary mission though, so many assumed it couldn't hang with Russia's SU-35's, China's J-11D or J-20. It most certainly can, it's just that public perception is still "stuck". Hopefully, the 2019 demo team will help to change that. I think it already is.

Just look at the Red/Green Flag exercise results. It's killing everything - on the air, on the ground. Anywhere from 15-1 to 20-1 air to air, depending how you count them. That's far and away superior to the best would could manage with F-15's/16's (about 3-1). Will it be invincible? Of course not.

But the ratio is awful lopsided in its favor. The F-35 is cheaper. It does more. It performs better. Build it then, and keep building it..

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 11 Jun 2019, 16:59
by SpudmanWP
Unrefueled range, but that is one of the least important attributes given the sheer amount of IFR the US has at it's disposal.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 11 Jun 2019, 19:30
by wrightwing
mixelflick wrote:


Just look at the Red/Green Flag exercise results. It's killing everything - on the air, on the ground. Anywhere from 15-1 to 20-1 air to air, depending how you count them. That's far and away superior to the best would could manage with F-15's/16's (about 3-1). Will it be invincible? Of course not.

But the ratio is awful lopsided in its favor. The F-35 is cheaper. It does more. It performs better. Build it then, and keep building it..

Actually, the lowest kill ratio it's had, was 20:1. In the last Red Flag, it was 28:1. Your points are otherwise correct.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 11 Jun 2019, 19:53
by mixelflick
SpudmanWP wrote:Unrefueled range, but that is one of the least important attributes given the sheer amount of IFR the US has at it's disposal.


See, it's here where I'm confused.

Chip Burke (or however you spell it) said in an interview the F-35 had considerably better persistence vs. the F-15. I don't think he specified though, which version. But he clearly indicated the F-35 could stay longer in the battle space before hitting a tanker.

An F-15 with CFT's carries more fuel, but you also have to factor in external stores, drag etc.. If there is an advantage the F-15 holds insofar as unrefueled range, it's hard to imagine its a lot more. The F-35 generates so much lift, there is so little drag and you're talking 1 engine vs. 2. Having a hard time understanding under what conditions the F-15 would out-range it..

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 11 Jun 2019, 20:00
by SpudmanWP
If you only load 2 AAMs and 2 bombs on a F-15E then you should be ok.

However, they don't usually fight that way as 4 AAMs minimum (if not more) is the norm as are more than two bombs.

Context is king.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 11 Jun 2019, 20:55
by sprstdlyscottsmn
Every single combat mission (post AMRAAM) of the F-15E had a few things in common. CFTs, 2 AIM-9, 2 AIM-20, 2 610gal wing tanks, TGT Pod, NAV pod. The only variable is what was on the CFTs and centerline. two GBU-10s and nothing else was done. Remember, total fuel load doesn't matter as much as fuel fraction. Fuel Fraction, Lift over Drag, and TSFC will give you theoretical endurance. If two planes have the same fuel fraction and TSFC then whoever has the best L/D will have the best range/endurance. The F-15E can have an unrivaled fuel fraction, but only if it sacrifices L/D. I am losing count of the number of times I have had to discuss the F-15E vs the F-35A in terms of range. With the same payload, the Strike Eagle can out range the Stubby, but not by much.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 12 Jun 2019, 01:03
by southernphantom
SpudmanWP wrote:Unrefueled range, but that is one of the least important attributes given the sheer amount of IFR the US has at it's disposal.


I wholly disagree. Longer unrefueled range permits the tankers to stay further from the target, which does wonders for their survivability. Remember that tankers are currently sitting ducks without an escort.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 12 Jun 2019, 04:07
by Fox1
I'm just happy to finally see fighter aircraft being purchased in quantity again. I'm not going to squabble too much over how many from each manufacturer's production line is chosen. We have a need and the room for both aircraft. And much of that present need is a direct result of not purchasing enough combat aircraft over the past 20 years. So yeah, I'm just happy to finally see a "buy" attitude coming from Washington, which is refreshing after years and years of neglect. It is just terribly sad that attitude wasn't around back in 2009/2010. It sure would have been nice to have had another hundred or so Raptors in the inventory today. Ceasing production of that aircraft at 187 was one of the stupidest decisions I've seen in my lifetime. Obama and Gates sure were some amazing visionaries, huh?

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 12 Jun 2019, 06:46
by rowbeartoe
Fox1 wrote: It sure would have been nice to have had another hundred or so Raptors in the inventory today. Ceasing production of that aircraft at 187 was one of the stupidest decisions I've seen in my lifetime. Obama and Gates sure were some amazing visionaries, huh?


Yes! Then we wouldn't be talking about F-15x or SE etc. That and Dick Cheney and his dislike of the F-14 for a bigger F-18. If only the Navy/Marines went for a F-22 variant at the time rather than the super bug. Perhaps the F-22 would have never been discontinued then?

Anyhow- that said- I guess it's a good thing we are getting more aircraft and the F-35 dropped in price for hopeful more purchases. I just hope that the F-15X, should it arrive in 144 or so aircraft that they are used to their best advantage and save airframe time from the F-22 until we get a hybrid 5th gen fighter or 6th gen fighter (hopefully a piloted one).

As a fan of the F-16- be nice if we continue to upgrade the ones we have so that they network with our 5th gen fighters. To me it's still the most beautiful bird ever made. :)

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 12 Jun 2019, 07:28
by Corsair1963
madrat wrote:I'm not interested in handouts to Boeing. What makes their design any more valid that previous generations of discontinued production lines? Lockheed Martin has no fewer than three families of product solutions that I'd build before F-15X: F-22, F-35, and F-16. I can consciously justify F-16 with CFT and an enlarged spine for maximum internal space much easier than an F-15.




Honestly, this just shows what a "scam" the F-15EX is....As the USAF is in the process of upgrading it's remaining F-16 Fleet to the V Standard with a SLEP to boot. These aircraft are available "today" (surplus) and would just be inserted into existing production line.


They could be had more quickly and far more cheaply than the F-15EX's. While, being more that adequate for the task... :doh:

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 12 Jun 2019, 07:49
by Corsair1963
Fox1 wrote:I'm just happy to finally see fighter aircraft being purchased in quantity again. I'm not going to squabble too much over how many from each manufacturer's production line is chosen. We have a need and the room for both aircraft. And much of that present need is a direct result of not purchasing enough combat aircraft over the past 20 years. So yeah, I'm just happy to finally see a "buy" attitude coming from Washington, which is refreshing after years and years of neglect. It is just terribly sad that attitude wasn't around back in 2009/2010. It sure would have been nice to have had another hundred or so Raptors in the inventory today. Ceasing production of that aircraft at 187 was one of the stupidest decisions I've seen in my lifetime. Obama and Gates sure were some amazing visionaries, huh?



I hate to break it to you. Yet, even the US doesn't have an endless Defense Budget. As a matter of fact we are in "Trillions" of dollars of debt. Also, while the Republicans are happy to spend $750 Billion on the US Military next year. The Democrats would like to spend $733 Billion or even less. Let's not forget they have the MAJORITY in the US House and fair odds of beating Trump in the next election. Hell, they even have a shot at the US Senate. This would give them 2-3 branches of Government. Hell, if that happens the $733 Billion would look real real good!
:shock: :shock: :shock:

In short we "can't afford both". Which, is why we need to increase F-35 Production today and skip the far less capable F-15EX. As we may have less funds in the future. (odds are good)

As for creasing F-22 Production. That likely was the best outcome for the US Military and Western Alliance in the long term. Because if the US funded more F-22's. That very likely would have cut into the F-35 Program. Which, could have pushed up the price of the latter. Making the program unaffordable or at least far more expensive. (sound familiar)

In short canceling the F-22 made the F-35 "viable". Which, will allow us to produce it today in large numbers for us and our allies.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 17 Jun 2019, 19:44
by blain
madrat wrote:I'm not interested in handouts to Boeing. What makes their design any more valid that previous generations of discontinued production lines? Lockheed Martin has no fewer than three families of product solutions that I'd build before F-15X: F-22, F-35, and F-16. I can consciously justify F-16 with CFT and an enlarged spine for maximum internal space much easier than an F-15.


If anything I'd rather keep NG in the fighter business. They built a competitive design in the ATF competition. Boeing did not in the JSF. Boeing which supposedly excels at large aircraft manufacturing can barely mange with the KC-46A.

What was the last Boeing - in house - combat aircraft design which was truly groundbreaking? The B-52? None in terms of stealth. LM has produced the F-22, F-35, and the F-117.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 17 Jun 2019, 19:47
by blain
SpudmanWP wrote:Unrefueled range, but that is one of the least important attributes given the sheer amount of IFR the US has at it's disposal.


And how does it get that range? External fuel tanks and CFTs. Both have a negative impact on performance. The CFTs also has a negative impact on the F-15s ability maneuver.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 18 Jun 2019, 10:15
by vilters
blain wrote:
SpudmanWP wrote:Unrefueled range, but that is one of the least important attributes given the sheer amount of IFR the US has at it's disposal.


And how does it get that range? External fuel tanks and CFTs. Both have a negative impact on performance. The CFTs also has a negative impact on the F-15s ability maneuver.



With increasing SA and BVR identification and kills, the requirement for pulling "G"'s, is becoming less and less and less important. "G's' are for the airshow circuit. => Let the Russians go that route. => They are good at it.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 18 Jun 2019, 14:18
by zero-one
I still think the reason why the F-15X is being bought is the same reason why the B-52 is still around.
The B-1 and B-2 can do everything the BUFF can and do it better. But you don't always need a B-1 or 2 specially when the enemy has nothing more than small arms and mortars.

Same way the enemy isn't always a S-35 or Su-57, most of the time its just a Su-22 or 24. You'd want to save up on your precious F-22 and F-35 flight hours for the real hard battles not for intercepting the routine Bear over Alaska.

Boeing claims that the F-15X will cost less to buy, fly and maintain than the F-35A. Now I know a lot of people here will dispute that, but the USAF brass aren't idiots, they won't buy into this unless Boeing presents some hard numbers. Apparently Beoing offered it in a locked price contract IIRC

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 18 Jun 2019, 14:28
by zero-one
vilters wrote:
With increasing SA and BVR identification and kills, the requirement for pulling "G"'s, is becoming less and less and less important. "G's' are for the airshow circuit. => Let the Russians go that route. => They are good at it.


I wouldn't go this far. I still prefer F-35 test pilot Tom Morganfeld's words.

HOBS and HMD may diminish the relevance of maneuverability to a degree, but maneuverability will always be important on a fighter


And I may add, the Russians have always been second best in the maneuverability game. The US has always had better dog fighters in every era of history including today.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 18 Jun 2019, 15:06
by mixelflick
zero-one wrote:
vilters wrote:
With increasing SA and BVR identification and kills, the requirement for pulling "G"'s, is becoming less and less and less important. "G's' are for the airshow circuit. => Let the Russians go that route. => They are good at it.


I wouldn't go this far. I still prefer F-35 test pilot Tom Morganfeld's words.

HOBS and HMD may diminish the relevance of maneuverability to a degree, but maneuverability will always be important on a fighter


And I may add, the Russians have always been second best in the maneuverability game. The US has always had better dog fighters in every era of history including today.


I'm not so sure about the latter statement...

Their Mig-35's, SU-27SM2's and 3's, SU-30's, SU-35's and soon to be SU-57 are fearsome in close. Let's not under-estimate the enemy. They all have very high thrust to weight ratios, most have thrust vectoring, high operational ceilings and excellent legs, allowing them more time for afterburner in close.

We largely field F-16's, which are excellent dogfight platforms, but not so much after they get loaded up with external stores, sensors, jamming pods etc. The latter two are incorporated into the airframes of most Russian jets, and the US hangs more of those under the wings. Fuel tanks in particular due to generally shorter range than their Russian counterparts. The same is true of our F-15's and especially legacy Hornets and Super-Hornets.

They're all built to dogfight - and win. Most of our aircraft are set up to excel at the BVR game, and rightfully so. But let's give credit where credit is due: Russian jets are (on average), more capable WVR platforms. Assuming equal pilot skills (and they have some excellent ones), they excel close in. The F-35 will go a long way toward improving our position, but it's too early in its fielding/not yet fully mature.

And as it stands, the Chinese are a very close second and will exceed Russian capabilities within a decade. Large numbers of J-15's, J-16's, J-10B's/C's and F/C-31's present a VERY nasty problem. Particularly if the F/C-31 is capable and built in numbers for the PLAAF.

Let me put it this way: If I'm going to dogfight an enemy exclusively, I'd want what the Russians have fielded (today). 10 years from now, that dynamic may change. But as the old saying goes, you go to war today with what you have - not what you wish you had.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 18 Jun 2019, 16:22
by zero-one
well thats why I used Era instead of generation.

Lot of people don't like to compare the F-22/35 with the Su-35 or Mig-29 SMT because they are not in the same generation.
But in war an F-22 wouldn't care if you're a 5th gen, 4+ gen or a 3rd gen. If you're hostile, then you're a target.

So comparing fighters by Era is a more realistic way of comparing fighters as it will be the kinds of fighters that will meet if War breaks out.

Lets say World War 3 broke out in the 70s.
US F-4s, some F-14s F-15s and F-16 would meet against Soviet Mig-21s, 23s and Su-15s
In a dogfight, I'd say the American 70s era fighters have a massive advantage.

World war 3 in the 80s:
F-15s, F-16, F/A-18s
against
Mig-21s, 23, Su-15s and some Mig-29s.
Still a massive advantage for the US

90s:
Teen series
against
Flanker/Fulcrum combo

This is the only era where I think the Russians would have some advantages in a dogfight

2000s to present day
5th gens vs Upgraded Flanker and Fulcrums with external stores

All the advantage will be with the 5th gens even in a gun fight

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 18 Jun 2019, 18:03
by disconnectedradical
Corsair1963 wrote:As for creasing F-22 Production. That likely was the best outcome for the US Military and Western Alliance in the long term. Because if the US funded more F-22's. That very likely would have cut into the F-35 Program. Which, could have pushed up the price of the latter. Making the program unaffordable or at least far more expensive. (sound familiar)

In short canceling the F-22 made the F-35 "viable". Which, will allow us to produce it today in large numbers for us and our allies.


No, F-22 production was stopped at the worst time, when production is getting streamlined. Increase F-22 production also means no need to upgrade F-15C and retire it early which saves money by simplifying logistics. How does cutting F-22 make F-35 viable? F-35 is still needed even if we got 381 F-22s because of strike and other capabilities.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 18 Jun 2019, 18:28
by SpudmanWP
President Trump said Tuesday that acting Secretary of Defense Patrick Shanahan is withdrawing as his nominee to take over the Defense Department, saying he has named Secretary of the Army Mark Esper as his new acting secretary of defense.
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump- ... for-secdef

Next up, the DoD updates us on the F-15EX.. says they were "just kidding".

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 18 Jun 2019, 19:29
by quicksilver
“...maneuverability will always be important on a fighter.”

Agree. So would all fighter guys. They would also tell you that not all maneuverability is necessarily relevant.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 18 Jun 2019, 19:30
by vilters
zero-one wrote:well thats why I used Era instead of generation.

All the advantage will be with the 5th gens even in a gun fight


To start a Gun Fight? You need a gun. LOL.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 18 Jun 2019, 20:00
by SpudmanWP
Moot point since a vast majority of 5th gen airframes have guns installed with the rest having them as an option.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 18 Jun 2019, 20:32
by blain
vilters wrote:
blain wrote:
SpudmanWP wrote:Unrefueled range, but that is one of the least important attributes given the sheer amount of IFR the US has at it's disposal.


And how does it get that range? External fuel tanks and CFTs. Both have a negative impact on performance. The CFTs also has a negative impact on the F-15s ability maneuver.



With increasing SA and BVR identification and kills, the requirement for pulling "G"'s, is becoming less and less and less important. "G's' are for the airshow circuit. => Let the Russians go that route. => They are good at it.


You still need a balance. Mostly, I am addressing the value of the EX. Basically you have a long range interceptor. Where did that requirement come from?

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 18 Jun 2019, 20:39
by blain
disconnectedradical wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:As for creasing F-22 Production. That likely was the best outcome for the US Military and Western Alliance in the long term. Because if the US funded more F-22's. That very likely would have cut into the F-35 Program. Which, could have pushed up the price of the latter. Making the program unaffordable or at least far more expensive. (sound familiar)

In short canceling the F-22 made the F-35 "viable". Which, will allow us to produce it today in large numbers for us and our allies.


No, F-22 production was stopped at the worst time, when production is getting streamlined. Increase F-22 production also means no need to upgrade F-15C and retire it early which saves money by simplifying logistics. How does cutting F-22 make F-35 viable? F-35 is still needed even if we got 381 F-22s because of strike and other capabilities.


Additional F-22s would have been a drop in the bucket (as far as cost goes). For some reasons there was a coalition that wanted to kill the F-22. There was discussion of foreign sales to Australia and Japan to keep the production line going, but Democrats in Congress passed an amendment to ban foreign sales. Do you think they were really concerned with securing American technology from the Japanese and the Australians?

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 18 Jun 2019, 21:34
by vilters
If you know everything there is to know, that answer would be "YES".

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2019, 00:55
by Corsair1963
blain wrote:
disconnectedradical wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:As for creasing F-22 Production. That likely was the best outcome for the US Military and Western Alliance in the long term. Because if the US funded more F-22's. That very likely would have cut into the F-35 Program. Which, could have pushed up the price of the latter. Making the program unaffordable or at least far more expensive. (sound familiar)

In short canceling the F-22 made the F-35 "viable". Which, will allow us to produce it today in large numbers for us and our allies.


No, F-22 production was stopped at the worst time, when production is getting streamlined. Increase F-22 production also means no need to upgrade F-15C and retire it early which saves money by simplifying logistics. How does cutting F-22 make F-35 viable? F-35 is still needed even if we got 381 F-22s because of strike and other capabilities.


Additional F-22s would have been a drop in the bucket (as far as cost goes). For some reasons there was a coalition that wanted to kill the F-22. There was discussion of foreign sales to Australia and Japan to keep the production line going, but Democrats in Congress passed an amendment to ban foreign sales. Do you think they were really concerned with securing American technology from the Japanese and the Australians?



Absurd.....a drop in the bucket at near $200 Million each! :doh:

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2019, 03:18
by charlielima223
Corsair1963 wrote:
blain wrote:
Additional F-22s would have been a drop in the bucket (as far as cost goes). For some reasons there was a coalition that wanted to kill the F-22. There was discussion of foreign sales to Australia and Japan to keep the production line going, but Democrats in Congress passed an amendment to ban foreign sales. Do you think they were really concerned with securing American technology from the Japanese and the Australians?



Absurd.....a drop in the bucket at near $200 Million each! :doh:


Billions for a single USN ship and for overall US Army "Big 6" programs (estimated 57billion) . 200mil is A LOT for a single fighter aircraft but when taken into context of how large US Defense spending is... it ain't that much. Also wouldn't the price gradually drop with each production lot of a hypothetical reopened F-22 line due to economies of scale and advances in manufacturing techniques?

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2019, 03:38
by sferrin
Corsair1963 wrote:Absurd.....a drop in the bucket at near $200 Million each! :doh:



Flyaway cost was down to about $125 million when they killed production.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2019, 03:45
by disconnectedradical
Corsair1963 wrote:Absurd.....a drop in the bucket at near $200 Million each! :doh:


Wrong, when there was full rate production F-22 cost less than $150 million. F-22 production restart is dead right now because reopening production means lots of non-recurring costs that wouldn't be there if production was not cut. So get your facts right before smugly throwing around emojis.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2019, 04:52
by Corsair1963
disconnectedradical wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:Absurd.....a drop in the bucket at near $200 Million each! :doh:


Wrong, when there was full rate production F-22 cost less than $150 million. F-22 production restart is dead right now because reopening production means lots of non-recurring costs that wouldn't be there if production was not cut. So get your facts right before smugly throwing around emojis.



Sorry, try again.............the average was $150 Million in 2012! Plus, the cost to maintain the F-22 was ~ $60,000 per flight hour. Hell, in 2019 most think the F-35's 90 Million/$34,000 price is way to high.


F-22 Raptor vs F-35 Lightning II

Date 5/30/2019
By Colin Ritsick

QUOTE: F-22 vs F-35 Cost

The F-22 is expensive. The U.S. Air Force had to stop production early on the F-22 because of soaring project costs. The cost of one aircraft alone is an estimated $334 million which includes research and development (unit cost of $150 million). The Air Force wanted 700 F-22s to be produced but had to cancel production just shy of 200 because they were already over-budget. The flight cost per hour for an F-22 is roughly $60,000.

https://militarymachine.com/f-22-raptor ... htning-ii/


Plus to restart production today would drive the price to well over $200 Million each for ~ 194 additional aircraft. ($206 million to $216 million per aircraft)


https://www.military.com/daily-news/201 ... ayinmil.sm

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2019, 05:38
by disconnectedradical
Corsair1963 wrote:
disconnectedradical wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:Absurd.....a drop in the bucket at near $200 Million each! :doh:


Wrong, when there was full rate production F-22 cost less than $150 million. F-22 production restart is dead right now because reopening production means lots of non-recurring costs that wouldn't be there if production was not cut. So get your facts right before smugly throwing around emojis.



Sorry, try again.............the average was $150 Million in 2012! Plus, the cost to maintain the F-22 was ~ $60,000 per flight hour. Hell, in 2019 most think the F-35's 90 Million/$34,000 price is way to high.


F-22 Raptor vs F-35 Lightning II

Date 5/30/2019
By Colin Ritsick

QUOTE: F-22 vs F-35 Cost

The F-22 is expensive. The U.S. Air Force had to stop production early on the F-22 because of soaring project costs. The cost of one aircraft alone is an estimated $334 million which includes research and development (unit cost of $150 million). The Air Force wanted 700 F-22s to be produced but had to cancel production just shy of 200 because they were already over-budget. The flight cost per hour for an F-22 is roughly $60,000.

https://militarymachine.com/f-22-raptor ... htning-ii/


Plus to restart production today would drive the price to well over $200 Million each for ~ 194 additional aircraft. ($206 million to $216 million per aircraft)


https://www.military.com/daily-news/201 ... ayinmil.sm


Wow, your English understanding is terrible. You're comparing the cost of F-22 when restarting production today, not when F-22 production was ongoing in 2009. Do you not see the difference? Of course restarting F-22 production today is going to cost more than $200 million per aircraft, because the production line is gone so you need non-recurring start up cost. If F-22 production wasn't cut in 2009 then unit cost is under $150 million.

And this has nothing to do with your argument of F-22 taking money away from F-35. If all 381 F-22s were built then F-15C can be retired to save money because that's one less aircraft type to support which saves logistics. Not to mention they're for different roles, F-35 is better for strike and is overall less capable in air to air, and F-22 is replacing F-15C which is for air to air.

Also, you got yourself banned from Key Pubs, which is quite an accomplishment. :roll:

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2019, 06:35
by Corsair1963
disconnectedradical wrote:
Wow, your English understanding is terrible. You're comparing the cost of F-22 when restarting production today, not when F-22 production was ongoing in 2009. Do you not see the difference? Of course restarting F-22 production today is going to cost more than $200 million per aircraft, because the production line is gone so you need non-recurring start up cost. If F-22 production wasn't cut in 2009 then unit cost is under $150 million.

And this has nothing to do with your argument of F-22 taking money away from F-35. If all 381 F-22s were built then F-15C can be retired to save money because that's one less aircraft type to support which saves logistics. Not to mention they're for different roles, F-35 is better for strike and is overall less capable in air to air, and F-22 is replacing F-15C which is for air to air.

Also, you got yourself banned from Key Pubs, which is quite an accomplishment. :roll:



The "original" quote was
"Additional F-22s would have been a drop in the bucket (as far as cost goes)."


Sorry, to get additional F-22's you would have to restart production. Surely, not even a hard concept for you to understand??? The quote didn't say anything about continuing production back in 2009.....Yet, maybe that was the authors intent??? Yet, if so he wasn't clear with his remarks....

Nonetheless, today according to the Rand Report for the US Government. The cost of restarting F-22 Production would be ~$206 - $216 Million per aircraft for an order of 194. Which, is the only option today.

Finally, your sarcasm was hardly called for. If, you wanted to express your opinion. I was happy to hear it.

BTW I wasn't "banned" from Key Publishing! I found it full of "children" that had very little real knowledge of the subject matter. So, I left on my own accord.....

Clearly, you must be a member. Which, speaks volumes..... :wink:

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2019, 07:31
by zero-one
Guys calm down.
I noticed that the admin has been locking down a lot of threads lately that has gone too far off topic.
I know I share some of the blame for that. So lets try to stay on track this time.

As much as I love to talk about restarting the Raptor line, which I admit is a wonderful pipe dream, Its going down the road of off topicness. lets stay the course shall we

vilters wrote:
To start a Gun Fight? You need a gun. LOL.


Fortunately all 5th gens have guns

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2019, 08:50
by disconnectedradical
YOUR original quote is this.

Corsair1963 wrote:As for creasing F-22 Production. That likely was the best outcome for the US Military and Western Alliance in the long term. Because if the US funded more F-22's. That very likely would have cut into the F-35 Program. Which, could have pushed up the price of the latter. Making the program unaffordable or at least far more expensive. (sound familiar)

In short canceling the F-22 made the F-35 "viable". Which, will allow us to produce it today in large numbers for us and our allies.


So you're saying that ending F-22 production is the best outcome. Ending production is EXACTLY why you now have the non-recurring costs for restarting production, which is why F-22 restart will cost more than $200 million unit cost per aircraft and pretty much dead. If production wasn't stopped in 2009, the unit cost was under $150 million. It still cost more than F-35, but if all 381 F-22s were built then you save money by retiring air to air F-15C for early and simplifying logistics. And how does ending F-22 make F-35 "viable"? If there was 381 F-22s, there still needs to be F-35 for strike role and to replace all the F-16s.

You want to talk about how ending F-22 production was right because it was costing $200 million unit cost per aircraft, when ending production is HOW you end up with $200 million unit cost because of non-recurring production restart cost. Do you not see your circular logic?

Corsair1963 wrote:Clearly, you must be a member. Which, speaks volumes..... :wink:


Hilarious, it's almost like your world is so F-35 centric that your arguments are not taken seriously.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2019, 10:39
by Corsair1963
disconnectedradical wrote:
So you're saying that ending F-22 production is the best outcome. Ending production is EXACTLY why you now have the non-recurring costs for restarting production, which is why F-22 restart will cost more than $200 million unit cost per aircraft and pretty much dead. If production wasn't stopped in 2009, the unit cost was under $150 million. It still cost more than F-35, but if all 381 F-22s were built then you save money by retiring air to air F-15C for early and simplifying logistics. And how does ending F-22 make F-35 "viable"? If there was 381 F-22s, there still needs to be F-35 for strike role and to replace all the F-16s.

You want to talk about how ending F-22 production was right because it was costing $200 million unit cost per aircraft, when ending production is HOW you end up with $200 million unit cost because of non-recurring production restart cost. Do you not see your circular logic?

Corsair1963 wrote:Clearly, you must be a member. Which, speaks volumes..... :wink:


Hilarious, it's almost like your world is so F-35 centric that your arguments are not taken seriously.



Under the budget conditions of the time and the options yes. I remember the period well and spoke to a number of people from Congress about the issue at the time. Including the late Senator John McCain. (more than once) So, spare me what you think you know....

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2019, 13:58
by sferrin
Corsair1963 wrote:
disconnectedradical wrote:
So you're saying that ending F-22 production is the best outcome. Ending production is EXACTLY why you now have the non-recurring costs for restarting production, which is why F-22 restart will cost more than $200 million unit cost per aircraft and pretty much dead. If production wasn't stopped in 2009, the unit cost was under $150 million. It still cost more than F-35, but if all 381 F-22s were built then you save money by retiring air to air F-15C for early and simplifying logistics. And how does ending F-22 make F-35 "viable"? If there was 381 F-22s, there still needs to be F-35 for strike role and to replace all the F-16s.

You want to talk about how ending F-22 production was right because it was costing $200 million unit cost per aircraft, when ending production is HOW you end up with $200 million unit cost because of non-recurring production restart cost. Do you not see your circular logic?

Corsair1963 wrote:Clearly, you must be a member. Which, speaks volumes..... :wink:


Hilarious, it's almost like your world is so F-35 centric that your arguments are not taken seriously.



Under the budget conditions of the time and the options yes. I remember the period well and spoke to a number of people from Congress about the issue at the time. Including the late Senator John McCain. (more than once) So, spare me what you think you know....



Had nothing to do with "budget constraints". Gates predicted it would be 20 years before anybody else rolled out a stealth fighter, and fired anybody who disagreed. It was hilariously ironic only a couple years later when China rolled out the J-20 during a state visit by Gates.

As for name-dropping, nobody cares who you interviewed. Most of Congress wouldn't know their a$$ from a hole in the ground when it comes to today's fighter aircraft. (Including McCain.)

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2019, 19:50
by blain
charlielima223 wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:
blain wrote:
Additional F-22s would have been a drop in the bucket (as far as cost goes). For some reasons there was a coalition that wanted to kill the F-22. There was discussion of foreign sales to Australia and Japan to keep the production line going, but Democrats in Congress passed an amendment to ban foreign sales. Do you think they were really concerned with securing American technology from the Japanese and the Australians?



Absurd.....a drop in the bucket at near $200 Million each! :doh:


Billions for a single USN ship and for overall US Army "Big 6" programs (estimated 57billion) . 200mil is A LOT for a single fighter aircraft but when taken into context of how large US Defense spending is... it ain't that much. Also wouldn't the price gradually drop with each production lot of a hypothetical reopened F-22 line due to economies of scale and advances in manufacturing techniques?


They are paying $200 million for Marine One. They had no problem paying that for the C-17A. They kept adding aircraft at the end. CRAF could have supplemented airlifters in a crisis. Where is the backstop for F-22. Combat coded aircraft are a drop in the bucket. You might be able to deploy a wing in a major war. If you needed more you would have to strip the OCA squadrons and leave the other areas bare.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2019, 19:58
by blain
Corsair1963 wrote:
disconnectedradical wrote:
Wow, your English understanding is terrible. You're comparing the cost of F-22 when restarting production today, not when F-22 production was ongoing in 2009. Do you not see the difference? Of course restarting F-22 production today is going to cost more than $200 million per aircraft, because the production line is gone so you need non-recurring start up cost. If F-22 production wasn't cut in 2009 then unit cost is under $150 million.

And this has nothing to do with your argument of F-22 taking money away from F-35. If all 381 F-22s were built then F-15C can be retired to save money because that's one less aircraft type to support which saves logistics. Not to mention they're for different roles, F-35 is better for strike and is overall less capable in air to air, and F-22 is replacing F-15C which is for air to air.

Also, you got yourself banned from Key Pubs, which is quite an accomplishment. :roll:


The "original" quote was
"Additional F-22s would have been a drop in the bucket (as far as cost goes)."


Sorry, to get additional F-22's you would have to restart production. Surely, not even a hard concept for you to understand??? The quote didn't say anything about continuing production back in 2009.....Yet, maybe that was the authors intent??? Yet, if so he wasn't clear with his remarks....

Nonetheless, today according to the Rand Report for the US Government. The cost of restarting F-22 Production would be ~$206 - $216 Million per aircraft for an order of 194. Which, is the only option today.

Finally, your sarcasm was hardly called for. If, you wanted to express your opinion. I was happy to hear it.

BTW I wasn't "banned" from Key Publishing! I found it full of "children" that had very little real knowledge of the subject matter. So, I left on my own accord.....

Clearly, you must be a member. Which, speaks volumes..... :wink:


I said "would have" not will be. The development cost was already paid for. The only cost was the fly away cost. If they produced the aircraft in efficient numbers they could have brought the fly away cost down further. Foreign sales to Japan and Australia also would have helped to reduce cost and keep the production line warm for when people figured out Gates was an idiot.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2019, 20:17
by blain
First, McCain was not the sharpest tool in the shed. Gates was a Soviet analyst at the CIA - where he no doubt had a track record of being wrong about a lot of things. I just finished reading a book about the CIA program to help Solidarity in Poland. Gates recommended against it. Fortunately Bill Casey and Ronald Reagan didn't listen to him.

Is anyone shocked Gates was wrong about China? Maybe the intel was wrong, but he of all people should have been able to do his own analysis.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2019, 22:51
by Corsair1963
sferrin wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:Absurd.....a drop in the bucket at near $200 Million each! :doh:



Flyaway cost was down to about $125 million when they killed production.



No it was $133 Million and that was a decade or more ago....

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2019, 23:04
by Corsair1963
blain wrote:First, McCain was not the sharpest tool in the shed. Gates was a Soviet analyst at the CIA - where he no doubt had a track record of being wrong about a lot of things. I just finished reading a book about the CIA program to help Solidarity in Poland. Gates recommended against it. Fortunately Bill Casey and Ronald Reagan didn't listen to him.

Is anyone shocked Gates was wrong about China? Maybe the intel was wrong, but he of all people should have been able to do his own analysis.




LOL

John McCain was a ranking member and then Chairmen of the US Senate Armed Services Committee. In addition he was Naval Academy graduate and USN Fighter Pilot. He has numerous military decorations and awards include the Silver Star, two Legion of Merits, Distinguished Flying Cross, three Bronze Star Medals, two Purple Hearts, two Navy and Marine Corps Commendation Medals, and the Prisoner of War Medal.

JMMX.jpg



There is "no one here" more qualified on the subject than John McCain. :doh:

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2019, 23:15
by Corsair1963
sferrin wrote:
Had nothing to do with "budget constraints". Gates predicted it would be 20 years before anybody else rolled out a stealth fighter, and fired anybody who disagreed. It was hilariously ironic only a couple years later when China rolled out the J-20 during a state visit by Gates.

As for name-dropping, nobody cares who you interviewed. Most of Congress wouldn't know their a$$ from a hole in the ground when it comes to today's fighter aircraft. (Including McCain.)


You spoke to John McCain or others directly involved in the process at the time??? Please, enlighten us.... :wink:

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2019, 00:32
by disconnectedradical
Corsair1963 wrote:LOL

John McCain was a ranking member and then Chairmen of the US Senate Armed Services Committee. In addition he was Naval Academy graduate and USN Fighter Pilot. He has numerous military decorations and awards include the Silver Star, two Legion of Merits, Distinguished Flying Cross, three Bronze Star Medals, two Purple Hearts, two Navy and Marine Corps Commendation Medals, and the Prisoner of War Medal.

JMMX.jpg



There is "no one here" more qualified on the subject than John McCain. :doh:


So cutting F-22 production is right just because John McCain supports that? Appeal to authority much? What does John McCain’s military service, which is no doubt exemplary, have to do with anything to do with making qualified decision on USAF fighter force? His service doesn’t make him immune to mistakes. You can be the best soldier and have the Medal of Honor but that doesn’t make you qualified on air power, especially since McCain is from totally different combat generation.

And none of this at all support your statement of how cutting F-22 makes F-35 “viable”. F-35 still happens and get bought in large numbers even if USAF got 381 F-22s they wanted. And some of F-35’s cost problems is the program’s own fault, should other programs be sacrificed to make up for that?

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2019, 01:25
by sferrin
Corsair1963 wrote:
sferrin wrote:
Had nothing to do with "budget constraints". Gates predicted it would be 20 years before anybody else rolled out a stealth fighter, and fired anybody who disagreed. It was hilariously ironic only a couple years later when China rolled out the J-20 during a state visit by Gates.

As for name-dropping, nobody cares who you interviewed. Most of Congress wouldn't know their a$$ from a hole in the ground when it comes to today's fighter aircraft. (Including McCain.)


You spoke to John McCain or others directly involved in the process at the time??? Please, enlighten us.... :wink:


Do I need to? Really? Have you ever actually heard what he had to say about the F-35? Do you think he was accurate?

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2019, 01:41
by charlielima223
Corsair1963 wrote:

LOL

John McCain was a ranking member and then Chairmen of the US Senate Armed Services Committee. In addition he was Naval Academy graduate and USN Fighter Pilot. He has numerous military decorations and awards include the Silver Star, two Legion of Merits, Distinguished Flying Cross, three Bronze Star Medals, two Purple Hearts, two Navy and Marine Corps Commendation Medals, and the Prisoner of War Medal.

Image


There is "no one here" more qualified on the subject than John McCain. :doh:


God rest his soul

Don't get me wrong, that is an impressive salad bar but that doesn't mean that he is a expert in all things military...


As others have pointed out, he is a man from another area and his views and opinions are not reflective on current trends and tactics. I'm not going to appeal to a Special Forces Operator on aspects of air combat nor will I appeal to a fighter pilot from the 60s about modern air combat.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2019, 01:51
by Corsair1963
sferrin wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:
sferrin wrote:
Had nothing to do with "budget constraints". Gates predicted it would be 20 years before anybody else rolled out a stealth fighter, and fired anybody who disagreed. It was hilariously ironic only a couple years later when China rolled out the J-20 during a state visit by Gates.

As for name-dropping, nobody cares who you interviewed. Most of Congress wouldn't know their a$$ from a hole in the ground when it comes to today's fighter aircraft. (Including McCain.)


You spoke to John McCain or others directly involved in the process at the time??? Please, enlighten us.... :wink:


Do I need to? Really? Have you ever actually heard what he had to say about the F-35? Do you think he was accurate?


I did speak about the John McCain about the F-35 a couple of times. As I was often unhappy of his criticism of the JSF Program. Yet, you have to understand the man. (many don't) As he was out spoken and critical. In order to get the best product and price for the US Taxpayer. You don't do that often with praise.....You think Lt. Gen. Chris Bogdan (former JPO F-35) was easy on Lockheed Martin, Pratt & Whitney, and the other F-35 Suppliers. That doesn't mean they didn't support the F-35 and are happy with the end product.

As for the F-22 John McCain and Robert Gates know far more about the F-22 and what lead to it's cancelation. Than anybody here......that I know.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2019, 01:54
by Corsair1963
charlielima223 wrote:

There is "no one here" more qualified on the subject than John McCain. :doh:


God rest his soul

Don't get me wrong, that is an impressive salad bar but that doesn't mean that he is a expert in all things military...


As others have pointed out, he is a man from another area and his views and opinions are not reflective on current trends and tactics. I'm not going to appeal to a Special Forces Operator on aspects of air combat nor will I appeal to a fighter pilot from the 60s about modern air combat.[/quote]

ABSURD.........John McCain was an Naval Aviator and was closely involved with all of the issues and had direct classified access. Nobody here could come remotely close to that.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2019, 03:08
by sferrin
Corsair1963 wrote:I did speak about the John McCain about the F-35 a couple of times. As I was often unhappy of his criticism of the JSF Program. Yet, you have to understand the man. (many don't) As he was out spoken and critical. In order to get the best product and price for the US Taxpayer. You don't do that often with praise.....You think Lt. Gen. Chris Bogdan (former JPO F-35) was easy on Lockheed Martin, Pratt & Whitney, and the other F-35 Suppliers. That doesn't mean they didn't support the F-35 and are happy with the end product.

As for the F-22 John McCain and Robert Gates know far more about the F-22 and what lead to it's cancelation. Than anybody here......that I know.


It's one thing to be demanding. Quite another to spout uninformed bull$hit. (He's not alone there. Trump needs to lay off EMALS for example.)

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2019, 05:07
by Corsair1963
sferrin wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:I did speak about the John McCain about the F-35 a couple of times. As I was often unhappy of his criticism of the JSF Program. Yet, you have to understand the man. (many don't) As he was out spoken and critical. In order to get the best product and price for the US Taxpayer. You don't do that often with praise.....You think Lt. Gen. Chris Bogdan (former JPO F-35) was easy on Lockheed Martin, Pratt & Whitney, and the other F-35 Suppliers. That doesn't mean they didn't support the F-35 and are happy with the end product.

As for the F-22 John McCain and Robert Gates know far more about the F-22 and what lead to it's cancelation. Than anybody here......that I know.


It's one thing to be demanding. Quite another to spout uninformed bull$hit. (He's not alone there. Trump needs to lay off EMALS for example.)


That is your opinion...... :|

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2019, 11:06
by madrat
You cannot have thin skin in the business of arms making. You let results speak.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2019, 11:58
by sferrin
Corsair1963 wrote:
sferrin wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:I did speak about the John McCain about the F-35 a couple of times. As I was often unhappy of his criticism of the JSF Program. Yet, you have to understand the man. (many don't) As he was out spoken and critical. In order to get the best product and price for the US Taxpayer. You don't do that often with praise.....You think Lt. Gen. Chris Bogdan (former JPO F-35) was easy on Lockheed Martin, Pratt & Whitney, and the other F-35 Suppliers. That doesn't mean they didn't support the F-35 and are happy with the end product.

As for the F-22 John McCain and Robert Gates know far more about the F-22 and what lead to it's cancelation. Than anybody here......that I know.


It's one thing to be demanding. Quite another to spout uninformed bull$hit. (He's not alone there. Trump needs to lay off EMALS for example.)


That is your opinion...... :|


Really?

"John McCain slammed the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter's troubled history Tuesday, saying it "has been both a scandal and a tragedy with respect to cost, schedule and performance."

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2019, 20:36
by blain
Corsair1963 wrote:
blain wrote:First, McCain was not the sharpest tool in the shed. Gates was a Soviet analyst at the CIA - where he no doubt had a track record of being wrong about a lot of things. I just finished reading a book about the CIA program to help Solidarity in Poland. Gates recommended against it. Fortunately Bill Casey and Ronald Reagan didn't listen to him.

Is anyone shocked Gates was wrong about China? Maybe the intel was wrong, but he of all people should have been able to do his own analysis.




LOL

John McCain was a ranking member and then Chairmen of the US Senate Armed Services Committee. In addition he was Naval Academy graduate and USN Fighter Pilot. He has numerous military decorations and awards include the Silver Star, two Legion of Merits, Distinguished Flying Cross, three Bronze Star Medals, two Purple Hearts, two Navy and Marine Corps Commendation Medals, and the Prisoner of War Medal.

JMMX.jpg



There is "no one here" more qualified on the subject than John McCain. :doh:


Very few doubt his bravery or his commitment to service. I never indicated that. But his naval academy rank is awful. If his dad was a plumber would he have been booted? He topped out as a CO of a training squadron. Odd for someone who the son and grandson of two prominent admirals. Then we have his involvement in the Keating Five scandal. And his erratic behavior as a Senator and presidential candidate. Could be that why his Navy career ended?

I'm sure he was a joy to work for.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 21 Jun 2019, 18:04
by mixelflick
The whole F-22 fiasco was embarrassing for our nation, and I hope the "powers that be" learned some lessons..

We built (hands down) the most fearsome air superiority fighter in existence. We were 30 years ahead of the threat with just the PROTOTYPES. When we had the opportunity to buy meaningful numbers (at a much lower price), we balked. The buck has to stop with someone, and that's Secretary Gates IMO. He made a horrible decision, which has hamstrung our air superiority fleet in no small fashion.

Right down to the long term storage of tooling shenanigans, we f'd it up bad. And I have to believe those in Russia and China breathed a sigh of relief and still get a good laugh about it. Yes, the F-35 is a great fighter too and should neutralize the threat, but the game will be a lot closer in the end vs. the blowout it should have been.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 21 Jun 2019, 18:41
by quicksilver
Well...re: that ‘lost a 30 year advantage’ idea —

The ATF selection went to Lockheed in April 1991. By my math, 2021 would be 30 years and the rest of the planet has yet to field any operational equivalents. Meanwhile, the boys in blue have pcap underway and who knows what else behind the curtain somewhere.

Lotsa arguments for/against F-22 decision that will likely go for the duration of our time on the planet. But, the decision to accept some strategic risk by cutting the buy, at least to this point, has not proven to be flawed.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 21 Jun 2019, 19:06
by marsavian
What single air force is going to survive for long if faced by about 150 Raptors anyway ? The point is the politics arrayed against it was strong, Obama, Gates, McCain etc and the Russian and Chinese militaries were quiet at the time, before Ukraine, before SCS island building so it was just bad timing and anyway the F-35 makes the F-22 deficient in certain areas like IR sensors which the Su-57/J-20 are not lacking. Time to let the F-22 production run story RIP and look forward to a much more modern PCA.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 22 Jun 2019, 07:33
by disconnectedradical
When talking about making more F-22s, the point is that we should have continued producing F-22s back in 2009 when it was still in production. Obviously making more F-22s NOW is a bad idea since production line is gone and all the non-recurring cost to restart is huge and not worth it and we’re better off focusing on PCA. I admit back then I didn’t see ending F-22 production as a mistake, but now in hindsight I do, since upfront cost can be made up for by retiring F-15C early and simplifying logistics. Also, when arguing F-22 is not used in Iraq, it is replacing F-15C which isn’t used in Iraq either.

Some of the problems like F-15C life running out and needing upgrades and life extensions is result of F-22 buy cut short. Maybe even the whole F-15EX nonsense can be avoided if all 381 F-22s were made.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 25 Jun 2019, 19:20
by blain
disconnectedradical wrote:When talking about making more F-22s, the point is that we should have continued producing F-22s back in 2009 when it was still in production. Obviously making more F-22s NOW is a bad idea since production line is gone and all the non-recurring cost to restart is huge and not worth it and we’re better off focusing on PCA. I admit back then I didn’t see ending F-22 production as a mistake, but now in hindsight I do, since upfront cost can be made up for by retiring F-15C early and simplifying logistics. Also, when arguing F-22 is not used in Iraq, it is replacing F-15C which isn’t used in Iraq either.

Some of the problems like F-15C life running out and needing upgrades and life extensions is result of F-22 buy cut short. Maybe even the whole F-15EX nonsense can be avoided if all 381 F-22s were made.


R & D cost was already paid for. Such a waste to spend billions to develop a fighter and then truncate the program. They did the same thing to the B-2. It was incredibly stupid and irresponsible of Gates to not find money in the budget to keep production going. They kept producing C-17s with a similar fly away cost. And also allowed foreign AFs to purchase aircraft to keep the line going. You would think that a career intelligence analyst of all people would have anticipated the growing threat of China and the implications to the force structure of purchasing such a small lot of air superiority fighters.

Hopefully they have learned their lesson and will not truncate the F-35. The nation made a huge investment in the fighter. It would be a waste to not have a return in that investment.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 25 Jun 2019, 21:18
by vilters
I respectfully disagree.

When the F-22 came around, the cold war was over. There simply where no enemies for such an aircraft.
The Ruskies stuck in all their S-27 variations, and the F-16, F-15 and F-18 where all more then capable enough to handle the Mig-29 variants.

The Chinese had other cats to take care off. First and most important to get the economy going with an increasing population. War? The Chinese where not thinking about war, not even remotely.

Stopping the F-22 got more resources into the better aircraft => the F-35.

So many years later? Where are we?

Well, the Ruskie Su failure is no where to be seen, and the Chinese are just starting, but none is close, and won't be for at least the next decade.

For the bomber squad. Hello, what or who are you gonna bomb?
To build a bomber you need targets.

And with an attack aircraft like the F-35, the bomber requirement is where exactly?

Well, you could bomb Antarctica and make the water levels go up.
Or bomb a hole in the earth, and make the water levels go down. LOL.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 25 Jun 2019, 21:24
by vilters
Ach, the F-22 and B2 where cold war idea's.

The same cold war the Tornado, Rafale and Tiffy where build for.

That is also the reason why Europe is not interested any more in investing gazillion dollars in the military.

If Trump wants to police the world?
Let him buy a colt 45 himself and do the Job himself.

He can not,
he needs both hands to twitter. LOL.
There is more brain in a 5 year old.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 26 Jun 2019, 00:25
by sferrin
vilters wrote:I respectfully disagree.

When the F-22 came around, the cold war was over. There simply where no enemies for such an aircraft.
The Ruskies stuck in all their S-27 variations, and the F-16, F-15 and F-18 where all more then capable enough to handle the Mig-29 variants.

The Chinese had other cats to take care off. First and most important to get the economy going with an increasing population. War? The Chinese where not thinking about war, not even remotely.

Stopping the F-22 got more resources into the better aircraft => the F-35.


By the time the F-22 first flew the Cold War was over. By the time they decided to cancel it though the world had changed drastically. PAK-FA was well under development as was the J-20 (as later events proved). Ending production of the F-22 was f--king retarded, as many higher ups in the USAF indicated at the time- and were fired for expressing their opinion.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 26 Jun 2019, 02:19
by Corsair1963
sferrin wrote:
vilters wrote:I respectfully disagree.

When the F-22 came around, the cold war was over. There simply where no enemies for such an aircraft.
The Ruskies stuck in all their S-27 variations, and the F-16, F-15 and F-18 where all more then capable enough to handle the Mig-29 variants.

The Chinese had other cats to take care off. First and most important to get the economy going with an increasing population. War? The Chinese where not thinking about war, not even remotely.

Stopping the F-22 got more resources into the better aircraft => the F-35.


By the time the F-22 first flew the Cold War was over. By the time they decided to cancel it though the world had changed drastically. PAK-FA was well under development as was the J-20 (as later events proved). Ending production of the F-22 was f--king retarded, as many higher ups in the USAF indicated at the time- and were fired for expressing their opinion.


Weak argument as the F-35 is much more versatile and cheaper to both own and operate. In addition it has "no" serious threat within the foreseeable future.

Those are easily supportable facts...

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 26 Jun 2019, 14:30
by mixelflick
It was flat out sad to watch McCain defend the A-10, when the USAF was right there with data showing how most CAS was done by B-1B's, F-16's, Strike Eagles etc..

I'm not sure if he really believed what he was saying or his faculties were failing, but it was a pathetic moment. The poor woman trying to explain these things to him was browbeaten into submission. It probably is a good idea to have a few A-10's around for low intensity conflicts, but McCain wouldn't have even entertained that.

His hatred for the F-35 was palpable, as he was seemingly unable to discern teething problems all new weapons systems go through from what an effective warplane it has matured into. I wonder what he'd think today of what the pilots say, the 20-1 kill ratio's coming back from Red Flag, etc..

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 26 Jun 2019, 15:55
by SpudmanWP
If it's a low-intensity conflict, then a "Light Attack" turboprop is just as good and a heck of a lot less expensive.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 26 Jun 2019, 18:09
by sferrin
Corsair1963 wrote:Weak argument as the F-35 is much more versatile and cheaper to both own and operate. In addition it has "no" serious threat within the foreseeable future.


Well that's flat out wrong. Both the J-20 and Su-57 could be threats within the foreseeable future. So could the J-31 for that matter.

Corsair1963 wrote:Those are easily supportable facts...


I don't think that means what you think it does.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 27 Jun 2019, 01:25
by weasel1962
SpudmanWP wrote:If it's a low-intensity conflict, then a "Light Attack" turboprop is just as good and a heck of a lot less expensive.


Helo!

Can't resist the Endgame paraphrase: I helo you 3000 (which is the number of H-60 + AH64s).

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 27 Jun 2019, 02:27
by Corsair1963
sferrin wrote:
Well that's flat out wrong. Both the J-20 and Su-57 could be threats within the foreseeable future. So could the J-31 for that matter.


Highly unlikely as the US has decades of experience developing and fielding both Stealth Fighters and Bombers. While, China and Russia have very little. Honestly, I've seen nothing to suggest either have closed the gap significantly enough. In order to pose a serious challenge...

I don't want to speak for the majority here. Yet, I doubt very few would disagree with that assessment. :|


I don't think that means what you think it does.


No comment....... :roll:

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 27 Jun 2019, 21:21
by blain
vilters wrote:Ach, the F-22 and B2 where cold war idea's.

The same cold war the Tornado, Rafale and Tiffy where build for.

That is also the reason why Europe is not interested any more in investing gazillion dollars in the military.

If Trump wants to police the world?
Let him buy a colt 45 himself and do the Job himself.

He can not,
he needs both hands to twitter. LOL.
There is more brain in a 5 year old.


Labeling a weapon system as a Cold War weapon is one of the silliest arguments. Why is the F-22 no relevant and the F-35 relevant? Just because one was designed after the Cold War was concluded? That's the type of argument that a failed CIA Soviet analyst makes.

Beyond the threat, Gates should have also understood the impact of the force structure in transforming the F-22 into a silver bullet force. As a student of history and an intelligence analyst he should have understood that nations, especially this nation, has failed to anticipate and prepare for emerging threats. The intelligence estimates might have been wrong, but Gates was uniquely positioned to do his own analysis. He didn't or he chose to ignore the emerging threat from Russia and China.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 27 Jun 2019, 21:33
by blain
mixelflick wrote:It was flat out sad to watch McCain defend the A-10, when the USAF was right there with data showing how most CAS was done by B-1B's, F-16's, Strike Eagles etc..

I'm not sure if he really believed what he was saying or his faculties were failing, but it was a pathetic moment. The poor woman trying to explain these things to him was browbeaten into submission. It probably is a good idea to have a few A-10's around for low intensity conflicts, but McCain wouldn't have even entertained that.

His hatred for the F-35 was palpable, as he was seemingly unable to discern teething problems all new weapons systems go through from what an effective warplane it has matured into. I wonder what he'd think today of what the pilots say, the 20-1 kill ratio's coming back from Red Flag, etc..


McCain was erratic (as evidenced by his presidential campaign), volatile, and was unconcerned by fact, or really dumb. Taken together it made for a very bad combination.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 28 Jun 2019, 01:22
by weasel1962
A person who's been almost a year still dominates conversations. Let's look at the impact of McCain & gang keeping the A-10.

If the A-10 isn't retired yet, then other aircraft gets retired first when the F-35 comes online. It may or may not be as effective as other aircraft but that's irrelevant where costs is concerned. Since A-10 sustainment costs are probably lower than other costs, that's offset against keeping an added type in service which was the USAF's contention for retiring the type. The reality is that the USAF can't keep the A-10 forever and the actions merely mean a slower retirement.

If the USAF intended to retire the A-10 without a replacement, thus saving the $4.2billion that the USAF had previously argued for, then I think there is merit in spending a bit more just to keep the plane especially in the context today of an expanded and targeted 386 sqn USAF.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 28 Jun 2019, 04:18
by marauder2048
In the midst of a deep maintainer's crisis, adding an unneccesary new type (F-15X) and retaining
an old type (A-10) where the OEM vanished 32 years ago makes little sense.

Since you have to add T-X anyway, the straightforward (T-50 -> F/A-50) F/A derivative should be prioritized.
That solves the cheap and cheerful attack and ANG CONUS gap in one fell swoop.

And you do the $10 M/airframe longeron/fuselage/wing SLEP for the F-15C/D fleet enabling it to go out to 2045.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 28 Jun 2019, 06:58
by weasel1962
Agreed in part. The USAF original argument was that the A-10 maintainers could be converted to the F-35.

Heather Wilson highlighted USAF has already fixed its maintainer shortage as of today for active duty units even with the A-10 still flying. GAO claimed the 4000 gap dropped to 745 in FY 2017 so that's a consistent trend but of course new hire are less experienced so that's a function of retention.
https://www.military.com/dodbuzz/2019/0 ... -says.html
https://www.gao.gov/assets/700/696747.pdf

The USAF is also claiming that the F-15EX using mostly the same ground equipment as the F-15C so its only a matter of weeks for the maintainers to convert.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 28 Jun 2019, 16:44
by mixelflick
blain wrote:
mixelflick wrote:It was flat out sad to watch McCain defend the A-10, when the USAF was right there with data showing how most CAS was done by B-1B's, F-16's, Strike Eagles etc..

I'm not sure if he really believed what he was saying or his faculties were failing, but it was a pathetic moment. The poor woman trying to explain these things to him was browbeaten into submission. It probably is a good idea to have a few A-10's around for low intensity conflicts, but McCain wouldn't have even entertained that.

His hatred for the F-35 was palpable, as he was seemingly unable to discern teething problems all new weapons systems go through from what an effective warplane it has matured into. I wonder what he'd think today of what the pilots say, the 20-1 kill ratio's coming back from Red Flag, etc..


McCain was erratic (as evidenced by his presidential campaign), volatile, and was unconcerned by fact, or really dumb. Taken together it made for a very bad combination.


I would agree with this, 'cept for the really dumb part. But he was erratic at times in his thought process and verbage. He was certainly volatile, that much was evident. And yes, at times he was unconcerned by facts. Seeing him go out the way he did was sad, but we all die from something.

He would have probably better served his nation as a pilot vs. a Senator..

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 29 Jun 2019, 15:47
by disconnectedradical
Corsair1963 wrote:Weak argument as the F-35 is much more versatile and cheaper to both own and operate. In addition it has "no" serious threat within the foreseeable future.

Those are easily supportable facts...


For air superiority role, the F-22 is overall better. General Hostage even said that for air to air, 2 F-22s can do what 8 F-35s do. F-22 is much more suitable to replace the F-15C.

https://breakingdefense.com/2014/10/acc ... and-syria/
https://breakingdefense.com/2015/07/f-1 ... whos-best/

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 01 Jul 2019, 00:50
by Corsair1963
disconnectedradical wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:Weak argument as the F-35 is much more versatile and cheaper to both own and operate. In addition it has "no" serious threat within the foreseeable future.

Those are easily supportable facts...


For air superiority role, the F-22 is overall better. General Hostage even said that for air to air, 2 F-22s can do what 8 F-35s do. F-22 is much more suitable to replace the F-15C.

https://breakingdefense.com/2014/10/acc ... and-syria/
https://breakingdefense.com/2015/07/f-1 ... whos-best/



In some aspects (high and fast) the F-22 clearly has an advantage over the F-35. Yet, that doesn't change the fact the F-35 is Cheaper, much more Versatile, and just as capable "overall" in the Air Superiority Role. (vs known threats)

Also, that is an old quote from General Hostage. I personally doubt many today believe 2- F-22's can do the job of 8- F-35's today. Even in the Air Superiority Role.... :roll:

Nonetheless, my original point was when production was stopped on the F-22. The concern was it could threaten orders for the F-35. Which, was far more critical for the US and the Western Alliance.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 01 Jul 2019, 01:08
by disconnectedradical
Corsair1963 wrote:
disconnectedradical wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:Weak argument as the F-35 is much more versatile and cheaper to both own and operate. In addition it has "no" serious threat within the foreseeable future.

Those are easily supportable facts...


For air superiority role, the F-22 is overall better. General Hostage even said that for air to air, 2 F-22s can do what 8 F-35s do. F-22 is much more suitable to replace the F-15C.

https://breakingdefense.com/2014/10/acc ... and-syria/
https://breakingdefense.com/2015/07/f-1 ... whos-best/



In some aspects (high and fast) the F-22 clearly has an advantage over the F-35. Yet, that doesn't change the fact the F-35 is Cheaper, much more Versatile, and just as capable "overall" in the Air Superiority Role. (vs known threats)

Also, that is an old quote from General Hostage. I personally doubt many today believe 2- F-22's can do the job of 8- F-35's today. Even in the Air Superiority Role.... :roll:

Nonetheless, my original point was when production was stopped on the F-22. The concern was it could threaten orders for the F-35. Which, was far more critical for the US and the Western Alliance.


Your opinion of F-35 is way inflated. As good as it is, it's NOT as good for air superiority as F-22. F-35 isn't even getting 6 internal AAMs until Block 4 at the earliest. How does F-22 threaten F-35? F-22 can't be exported anyways, and USAF still needs F-35 because F-22 can't do strike and it doesn't replace all the F-16s. You need to stop being such an F-35 and think it's the end all be all.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 01 Jul 2019, 03:42
by Corsair1963
disconnectedradical wrote:
Your opinion of F-35 is way inflated. As good as it is, it's NOT as good for air superiority as F-22. F-35 isn't even getting 6 internal AAMs until Block 4 at the earliest. How does F-22 threaten F-35? F-22 can't be exported anyways, and USAF still needs F-35 because F-22 can't do strike and it doesn't replace all the F-16s. You need to stop being such an F-35 and think it's the end all be all.


Really, so what fighter possess a serious threat to the F-35 today or even in the next ten to twenty years??? (please enlighten us)


The issue with the F-22 at the time was really two fold. First, the cost was unbelievably high. (during an economic recession) Second, while technically banned from export. It was becoming politically harder and harder to make that case. As the F-35 would be more capable and advanced in several respects. (newer design by same company) That said, a number of nations wanted the F-22 over the F-35. Including nations like Australia and Japan...

Yet, to make the F-35 a viable program. We needed as many partners and orders as possible! The concern was additional orders (export) for F-22's. Could have snowballed at the expense of the Lightning II. As the Raptor was in production and a known product. The F-35 on the other hand was still early in development with many "unknowns".

In short additional F-22's could have impacted the viability of the F-35 Program. Meaning fewer partners and less orders. This was something the US Government couldn't allow to happen. As the F-35 like the F-16 was the foundation of NATO/Western Air Power. Which, has been proven by history....It was the right choice then and the right choice now.

Lastly, I would love to see additional F-22's both then and now. Yet, not at the expense of F-35's. Which, is what this whole debate is about.

"IMHO"

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 02 Jul 2019, 17:29
by charlielima223
Corsair1963 wrote:
Really, so what fighter possess a serious threat to the F-35 today or even in the next ten to twenty years??? (please enlighten us)


The issue with the F-22 at the time was really two fold. First, the cost was unbelievably high. (during an economic recession) Second, while technically banned from export. It was becoming politically harder and harder to make that case. As the F-35 would be more capable and advanced in several respects. (newer design by same company) That said, a number of nations wanted the F-22 over the F-35. Including nations like Australia and Japan...

Yet, to make the F-35 a viable program. We needed as many partners and orders as possible! The concern was additional orders (export) for F-22's. Could have snowballed at the expense of the Lightning II. As the Raptor was in production and a known product. The F-35 on the other hand was still early in development with many "unknowns".

In short additional F-22's could have impacted the viability of the F-35 Program. Meaning fewer partners and less orders. This was something the US Government couldn't allow to happen. As the F-35 like the F-16 was the foundation of NATO/Western Air Power. Which, has been proven by history....It was the right choice then and the right choice now.

Lastly, I would love to see additional F-22's both then and now. Yet, not at the expense of F-35's. Which, is what this whole debate is about.

"IMHO"


I dont know what foreseeable aircraft will pose a "serious threat" to the F-35 but Chinese and Russian designs are definitely looking to at least compete against it... PAKFA, J-20, and FC-31. I dont know how much of a competition these aircraft will be but the US and other F-35 users aren't completely dismissing them either.

As i see it the F-22 was more of a victim of bad timing. Many saw the F-22 as a relic of the Cold War. Changing military strategy and priorities (OEF and OIF) was definitely a factor. Up armored HMMWVs and more ISR as well as Reaper drones was more relevant than a supersonic stealthy air dominance platform. Of course there was the politics and public perception of the times as well.

The F-22 was always gonna be a pricey aircraft no matter how much was built. The price (even if it dropped to $125mil in current year dollars) of the aircraft would have been off putting to most other nations unless they really wanted it that badly. Other than Japan and Australia wanting it, I think for a time Israel was also taking a serious look at the F-22 as well. So even if Australia, Japan, and Israel were to acquire F-22s, there would still be a market for other nations to have the more flexible/capable and affordable F-35.

I dont believe the F-22 if it had been produced in greater numbers for the US (381) and for 3 other nations (lets just throw out 40 Raptors for each of the 3) would have greatly impacted the F-35 program in a negative way. It would have pushed the F-35 further back for sure but i dont believe it would be a decade pass the 2011 rebaseline. Maybe if there were more F-22s, the F-35 program would have had better progression rather then it being rushed to make such lofty promises that in recent years is just now starting to be realized.

How much less F-35s would be produced? For sure the USAF wouldn't be looking at the current 1763 (remember F-22 was supposed to be the replacement for the F-15C). However to keep the high-low mix the USAF would still need to eventually replace the F-16 and A-10. USN would still need to replace their Hornets and USMC will still need to replace their Hornets, Harriers, and Prowlers. Also there would still be other nations that want a multi-role 5th generation fighter to phase out their aging Falcons, Tornandos, Hornets, etc. There would still be a larger market for the F-35 than the F-22.

I'm sure all of us here at F-16.net all wish and fantasize that there are more F-22s, so this is all in the realm of hypothetical and just mental gymnastics.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 02 Jul 2019, 19:52
by mixelflick
I agree 300+ Raptors would have been ideal, even if it came at the expense of say, a few hundred F-35's.

The more robust F-22 force would have enabled us to avoid more conflicts vs. fight in them, and if we had to fight they'd be over a lot faster. The aircraft simply has the "intimidation" factor far in excess of even the F-35. That may not be your reality, but among our enemies - the F-22 is the big dog. Perception as they say is reality, and the F-22 in Syria sends a strong message to the Russians: We have an overwhelmingly superior aircraft. We're talking about extreme overkill, so don't even think about it.

The F-35 has (yet) to display that kind of intimidation, although I'll concede that's a chapter perhaps to be written later.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 02 Jul 2019, 21:22
by wooster
mixelflick wrote:I agree 300+ Raptors would have been ideal, even if it came at the expense of say, a few hundred F-35's.

The more robust F-22 force would have enabled us to avoid more conflicts vs. fight in them, and if we had to fight they'd be over a lot faster. The aircraft simply has the "intimidation" factor far in excess of even the F-35. That may not be your reality, but among our enemies - the F-22 is the big dog. Perception as they say is reality, and the F-22 in Syria sends a strong message to the Russians: We have an overwhelmingly superior aircraft. We're talking about extreme overkill, so don't even think about it.

The F-35 has (yet) to display that kind of intimidation, although I'll concede that's a chapter perhaps to be written later.


"You really ought to go home," the F-22 pilot radioed the Iranian F-4. The reason the USAF could send the F-22 to within arms reach of the Iranian F-4 is because even by giving away stealth and revealing itself, the F-22 would have won the engagement, a kinematic engagement, against the Iranian. Yes his wingman would have also launched a few slammers at the F-4 as well.

I doubt the USAF will ever pull that same trick again with F-35. Can one imagine sending in a lone F-35 to do that to a J-11 or SU-30? Kinematically and without stealth, I doubt those lopsided RF victories would be occuring. Sure the F-35 wingman would end up winning the engagement from a distance with AAMs, but the F-35 as close range might not do so well. Especially given it wouldn't be carrying the winders under the wings and give up stealth to approach.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 02 Jul 2019, 21:36
by SpudmanWP
Why not?

A combat configured F-35 regularly beats "clean" F-16s & F-15s in BFM and that's not even taking into account HOBS SLAMMER shots. Imagine what it would do to an armed 4th gen fighter.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 03 Jul 2019, 02:52
by Corsair1963
mixelflick wrote:I agree 300+ Raptors would have been ideal, even if it came at the expense of say, a few hundred F-35's.

The more robust F-22 force would have enabled us to avoid more conflicts vs. fight in them, and if we had to fight they'd be over a lot faster. The aircraft simply has the "intimidation" factor far in excess of even the F-35. That may not be your reality, but among our enemies - the F-22 is the big dog. Perception as they say is reality, and the F-22 in Syria sends a strong message to the Russians: We have an overwhelmingly superior aircraft. We're talking about extreme overkill, so don't even think about it.

The F-35 has (yet) to display that kind of intimidation, although I'll concede that's a chapter perhaps to be written later.



You would be wrong....

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 03 Jul 2019, 03:02
by wooster
SpudmanWP wrote:Why not?

A combat configured F-35 regularly beats "clean" F-16s & F-15s in BFM and that's not even taking into account HOBS SLAMMER shots. Imagine what it would do to an armed 4th gen fighter.


Because the raptor is so overkill close-in and has the 9x which is the most lethal aam in the inventory minus range restrictions. Just my opinion they would not try that with the F-35. Its a fine ac but kinetically not in the same league as raptor. The prize not worth the risk. Opinion of course.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 03 Jul 2019, 03:06
by Corsair1963
mixelflick wrote:I agree 300+ Raptors would have been ideal, even if it came at the expense of say, a few hundred F-35's.

The more robust F-22 force would have enabled us to avoid more conflicts vs. fight in them, and if we had to fight they'd be over a lot faster. The aircraft simply has the "intimidation" factor far in excess of even the F-35. That may not be your reality, but among our enemies - the F-22 is the big dog. Perception as they say is reality, and the F-22 in Syria sends a strong message to the Russians: We have an overwhelmingly superior aircraft. We're talking about extreme overkill, so don't even think about it.

The F-35 has (yet) to display that kind of intimidation, although I'll concede that's a chapter perhaps to be written later.


We've been fighting for over a decade against the naysayers of the F-35. Fighting myth after myth. Now you say cutting "500" F-35's....for just 300 F-22's is a better deal. Man guess what the critics would say. If, the USAF cut "500" F-35's and order additional F-22's. (Price would balloon and export orders would be cut!)

This when the Lightning has no credible air threat and is much more capable in the Strike Role. We "need" large numbers of Tactical "Strike Fighters" not "Air Superiority Fighters".
:roll:

Sorry, that "dog" just doesn't hunt... :doh:

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 03 Jul 2019, 03:25
by Corsair1963
wooster wrote:
SpudmanWP wrote:Why not?

A combat configured F-35 regularly beats "clean" F-16s & F-15s in BFM and that's not even taking into account HOBS SLAMMER shots. Imagine what it would do to an armed 4th gen fighter.


Because the raptor is so overkill close-in and has the 9x which is the most lethal aam in the inventory minus range restrictions. Just my opinion they would not try that with the F-35. Its a fine ac but kinetically not in the same league as raptor. The prize not worth the risk. Opinion of course.



Vast majority of "kills" are at BVR. Plus, even WVR the F-35 is more than capable on taking care of itself. Sorry, this isn't WWI with slow turning "dogfights". Hell, that rarely happen in the last 30 years of Air Combat. So, don't expect that trend to somehow change in the coming decade. (i.e. post 2030)

Really, how many times do we have to spell this out??? Some still think of Pilots with Red Scarves and getting Gun Kills close range as being the norm.
:bang:

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 03 Jul 2019, 05:14
by SpudmanWP
wooster wrote:Its a fine ac but kinetically not in the same league as raptor.

The Raptor' kinematics is not what makes it intimidating.

Don't take my word, take the work of an F-22 & F-35 pilot.

The F-22 is a very fast and maneuverable aircraft, but that is not where it excels. It is an information dominant aircraft, a characteristic that the F-35 takes to another level.

“The F-22 is the fastest, the most powerful fighter ever built.

The least impressive thing about the Raptor is how fast it is, and it is really fast; the least impressive thing about the Raptor is its speed and maneuverability.



Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 03 Jul 2019, 06:17
by weasel1962
The F-15's suite 9 is only 8.5 times faster than the F-22s and "only" double that of the F-35. Redefines information dominance.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 03 Jul 2019, 07:05
by sprstdlyscottsmn
Until the F-35s TR3 hits in the next year.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 03 Jul 2019, 07:08
by Corsair1963
SpudmanWP wrote:
wooster wrote:Its a fine ac but kinetically not in the same league as raptor.

The Raptor' kinematics is not what makes it intimidating.

Don't take my word, take the work of an F-22 & F-35 pilot.

The F-22 is a very fast and maneuverable aircraft, but that is not where it excels. It is an information dominant aircraft, a characteristic that the F-35 takes to another level.

“The F-22 is the fastest, the most powerful fighter ever built.

The least impressive thing about the Raptor is how fast it is, and it is really fast; the least impressive thing about the Raptor is its speed and maneuverability.




Plus, high speed has it's own trade offs....

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 03 Jul 2019, 12:15
by zero-one
Corsair1963 wrote:Vast majority of "kills" are at BVR. Plus, even WVR the F-35 is more than capable on taking care of itself. Sorry, this isn't WWI with slow turning "dogfights".


Just a nitpick,
Only the majority of kills after Vietnam are BVR but if I may add the majority of kills very recently were WVR.
-Turkish downing of Russian Su-24
-USN downing of Su-22
-I believe the Pakistani Mig-21 kill was also WVR as claimed by the Indians. They claim they were able to retaliate against another F-16 with their R-73 equipped Mig-21.
-IIRC, the numerous UAVs shot down are also WVR.

I'm not saying dog fights will be the norm, I still believe BVR will be more common. What I'm saying is, just because certain ROEs allowed for BVR to make up most of the kills in the past, we shouldn't treat WVR as an anomaly in air combat. Recent history shows that it can still be common depending on the situation. Specially when you consider the fact that BVR scenarios can turn into WVR in seconds

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 03 Jul 2019, 13:49
by mixelflick
Corsair1963 wrote:
mixelflick wrote:I agree 300+ Raptors would have been ideal, even if it came at the expense of say, a few hundred F-35's.

The more robust F-22 force would have enabled us to avoid more conflicts vs. fight in them, and if we had to fight they'd be over a lot faster. The aircraft simply has the "intimidation" factor far in excess of even the F-35. That may not be your reality, but among our enemies - the F-22 is the big dog. Perception as they say is reality, and the F-22 in Syria sends a strong message to the Russians: We have an overwhelmingly superior aircraft. We're talking about extreme overkill, so don't even think about it.

The F-35 has (yet) to display that kind of intimidation, although I'll concede that's a chapter perhaps to be written later.


We've been fighting for over a decade against the naysayers of the F-35. Fighting myth after myth. Now you say cutting "500" F-35's....for just 300 F-22's is a better deal. Man guess what the critics would say. If, the USAF cut "500" F-35's and order additional F-22's. (Price would balloon and export orders would be cut!)

This when the Lightning has no credible air threat and is much more capable in the Strike Role. We "need" large numbers of Tactical "Strike Fighters" not "Air Superiority Fighters".
:roll:

Sorry, that "dog" just doesn't hunt... :doh:


Correction if I may: I said "a few hundred", not 500 F-35's. A few hundred is 200, to be more specific.I agree 500 would be way too much.

I was also thinking more along the lines of not cancelling it in 2009, vs. re-starting Raptor production now. It's clear that would be prohibitely expensive.

Also, I think your presumption that we need large numbers of strike fighters vs. air superiority fighters is flawed. The USAF and USN are LOADED with "strike fighters". 200+ F-15E's, almost 1,000 F-16's and 400+ Hornets/Super Hornets, plus ever growing numbes of F-35's. That, vs. a backdrop of just 125 or so combat coaded Raptors and around 200 elderly F-15C's. Had we funded 340 - 380 Raptors, we'd be in great shape and the F-15C could have been properly retired.

I can't see how an air superiority fleet of just 325 jets (more than half of which are elderly) and only at best, at parity with the enemy is justified, vs. 1,700 or so strike fighters.

We've had air superiority for so long, I worry that it's been taken for granted...

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 03 Jul 2019, 19:30
by wrightwing
mixelflick wrote:

Also, I think your presumption that we need large numbers of strike fighters vs. air superiority fighters is flawed. The USAF and USN are LOADED with "strike fighters". 200+ F-15E's, almost 1,000 F-16's and 400+ Hornets/Super Hornets, plus ever growing numbes of F-35's. That, vs. a backdrop of just 125 or so combat coaded Raptors and around 200 elderly F-15C's. Had we funded 340 - 380 Raptors, we'd be in great shape and the F-15C could have been properly retired.

I can't see how an air superiority fleet of just 325 jets (more than half of which are elderly) and only at best, at parity with the enemy is justified, vs. 1,700 or so strike fighters.

We've had air superiority for so long, I worry that it's been taken for granted...

You have to look at what the primary function of tactical aircraft are, in the context of aerial warfare. Far more missions involve hitting enemy ground forces, which is why we'll always have a very lopsided mix of multi-role jets vs pure A2A. F-15E, F-16, F-18, and F-35 are all very capable A2A jets, which minimizes the requirements for the numbers of escorts. Sure, 381 F-22s would've been preferable to the F-15C/F-22 mix, but 300-400 aircraft performing OCA/DCA is a good number vs thousands of multi-role.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 03 Jul 2019, 23:03
by quicksilver
“We've had air superiority for so long, I worry that it's been taken for granted...”

Versus who?

:lmao:

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 04 Jul 2019, 00:53
by weasel1962
sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:Until the F-35s TR3 hits in the next year.


The official date is 2023 from lot 15 onwards. Possibly using the 1 THZ chips which is 25 times the 40 GHZ ones currently used. Lightning speeds.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 04 Jul 2019, 01:15
by weasel1962
mixelflick wrote:I can't see how an air superiority fleet of just 325 jets (more than half of which are elderly) and only at best, at parity with the enemy is justified, vs. 1,700 or so strike fighters.


Consider the following factors:

(a) potential aggressor sortie rates
(b) the capability of 180 F-22s + x number of F-35s to affect aggressor attrition rates
(c) the A2G impact 3400 minus above fighters (don't forget the navy) on enemy air bases and the impact to those aggressor sortie rates.

One would then realise that the real constraints would be:

(d) How many and how fast fighters can be deployed to the fight
(e) the A2G impact of aggressor that actually get thru the F-22s, F-35s, F-16s, F-15s and F-18s on air bases.

Think about it. How many sorties would an aggressor aircraft be able to launch if there are always "only" 100 F-22s in between. 2... 3....max? That would be halved just by adding 100 F-35s. Then add in USMC F-35Bs that shoots and scoots which reduces any impact from (e). That's not even counting Allied airpower. People worried in 2003 when US used less than half the combat forces in Iraqi Freedom. No worries after that.

What's the aggressor doing about it, knowing that? In China's case, they try to develop asymmetric combat capabilities e.g. ASBMs to take out carriers. TBMs to take out air bases. Stealth fighter to take out tankers, AEW i.e. reduced and less effective sortie rates. Defence dollars then goes to missile defence, stealth detection and a PCA that may not need to rely on tankers. Smart!

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 04 Jul 2019, 01:23
by Corsair1963
mixelflick wrote:
Correction if I may: I said "a few hundred", not 500 F-35's. A few hundred is 200, to be more specific.I agree 500 would be way too much.

I was also thinking more along the lines of not cancelling it in 2009, vs. re-starting Raptor production now. It's clear that would be prohibitely expensive.

Also, I think your presumption that we need large numbers of strike fighters vs. air superiority fighters is flawed. The USAF and USN are LOADED with "strike fighters". 200+ F-15E's, almost 1,000 F-16's and 400+ Hornets/Super Hornets, plus ever growing numbes of F-35's. That, vs. a backdrop of just 125 or so combat coaded Raptors and around 200 elderly F-15C's. Had we funded 340 - 380 Raptors, we'd be in great shape and the F-15C could have been properly retired.

I can't see how an air superiority fleet of just 325 jets (more than half of which are elderly) and only at best, at parity with the enemy is justified, vs. 1,700 or so strike fighters.

We've had air superiority for so long, I worry that it's been taken for granted...



Most would consider ~200 as a couple hundred. While, ~500 would be a few hundred....Nonetheless, as for Strike Fighters that is "exactly" what we need. As they can perform multiple missions. Which, provides the US Military with considerable flexibility. This is critical even more today than in the past. As we don't have the large numbers of tactical aircraft that we did in the previous generation of fighters. In addition a "Strike Fighter" can and often is a Air Superiority Fighter equipped to perform multiple missions. A good example is the F-15C/F-15E. Hell, Israel has given it's single seat F-15A/C's a strike role and it can perform either mission with ease.

Honestly, what we should have done with the F-22. ("IMHO") Was just to produce a modest number past the 187 that we ended up with. This would likely not have threaten F-35 production. Maybe another 75-100 Raptors. Then end production quietly and pursue the F-35 with vigor. Yet, hindsight is always 20/20. Which, I believe we could agree on....

My point was what was going on during the period when F-22 production was stopped and the reasons behind it. (according to the decision makers of the time)

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 04 Jul 2019, 14:56
by mixelflick
quicksilver wrote:“We've had air superiority for so long, I worry that it's been taken for granted...”

Versus who?

:lmao:


Say, China..

But that needs context, and in my example we're stretched thin in the SCS and/or defending Taiwan.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 04 Jul 2019, 16:26
by quicksilver
mixelflick wrote:
quicksilver wrote:“We've had air superiority for so long, I worry that it's been taken for granted...”

Versus who?

:lmao:


Say, China..

But that needs context, and in my example we're stretched thin in the SCS and/or defending Taiwan.


The probabilities of the US going to war w China are microscopic. The economic consequences are too great for either player. However, US would retain air superiority for as long as the missile inventory lasted.

Not sure what suggests to you that ‘...its been taken for granted.’ There are places on the planet that are always going to present difficult choices; that doesn’t necessarily mean something has been taken for granted. Strategic choices necessarily involve conscious decisions to assume different levels of risk, because you can’t be everywhere all the time. That’s the fundamental reality that doesn’t change.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 04 Jul 2019, 18:44
by wrightwing
mixelflick wrote:
quicksilver wrote:“We've had air superiority for so long, I worry that it's been taken for granted...”

Versus who?

:lmao:


Say, China..

But that needs context, and in my example we're stretched thin in the SCS and/or defending Taiwan.

In that eventuality, the Chinese won't be able to generate high sortie rates, as their airfields will be smouldering, and the aircraft that survive will have to fly from more distant bases/rely heavily on tanking. Additionally, in addition to USAF/USN/USMC aircraft, you'd have to add in aircraft from Taiwan, South Korea, Japan, Australia, Singapore, etc... as it's doubtful they'd sit on their hands.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 04 Jul 2019, 22:21
by SpudmanWP
weasel1962 wrote:
sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:Until the F-35s TR3 hits in the next year.


The official date is 2023 from lot 15 onwards.

I think that he was talking about its first flight rather than TR3 release to the fleet.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 04 Jul 2019, 22:48
by sprstdlyscottsmn
No, I was just making a general response that the MC in the F-15EX will not be the fastest for long.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 05 Jul 2019, 00:43
by weasel1962
quicksilver wrote: However, US would retain air superiority for as long as the missile inventory lasted.


There may be a lot of JDAMs expended in combat but the one thing that's hardly used except in live firing training/testing are AMRAAMs. "Only" ~10,000 procured by USAF thus far vis the number of planes the Chinese have.

The bigger issue are the new LRAAMs fielded hence AIM-260. Its still lopsided considering if Chinese "can't see the planes", so what do they shoot at?

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 05 Jul 2019, 01:44
by weasel1962
wrightwing wrote:In that eventuality, the Chinese won't be able to generate high sortie rates, as their airfields will be smouldering, and the aircraft that survive will have to fly from more distant bases/rely heavily on tanking. Additionally, in addition to USAF/USN/USMC aircraft, you'd have to add in aircraft from Taiwan, South Korea, Japan, Australia, Singapore, etc... as it's doubtful they'd sit on their hands.


The PLAAF fleet are still 3/4G (900+) which are at best equivalent to the F-15/16 fleets which the F-22s and F-35s are already wiping their feet on at least in training. 3 out of the 5 listed countries are already buying F-35As and Bs. The Pacific has 200+ legacies (incl 1 F-35B sqn) and 1 CVBG based there. Taiwan, Japan and Korea combined can throw up 900+ legacies.

Despite all the threat talk, China only has 20+ J-20s estimated in service. The key is not more F-22s now but how fast PCA should be fielded.

SCS is irrelevant. There is insufficient PLA basing to fight 6 CVBGs, if push comes to shove. No worries about collateral damage and those "islands" can be pummeled back to underwater coral reefs.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 05 Jul 2019, 16:30
by mixelflick
A log of what you said makes sense, thank you.

Are you not concerned though, about the large/growing numbers of Chinese J-10B's/C's and very capable Flanker airframes? To me, those present a very credible threat to our F-15's, 16's and 18's? At least until large numbers of F-35's proliferate.

On the airfield destruction.. OK, but doesn't that go both ways?

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 05 Jul 2019, 18:19
by wrightwing
mixelflick wrote:A log of what you said makes sense, thank you.

Are you not concerned though, about the large/growing numbers of Chinese J-10B's/C's and very capable Flanker airframes? To me, those present a very credible threat to our F-15's, 16's and 18's? At least until large numbers of F-35's proliferate.

On the airfield destruction.. OK, but doesn't that go both ways?

We don't fight platform vs platform fights (but our pilots have practiced against F-22, F-35, Typhoons, Rafales, Fulcrums, Flankers, etc...). Chinese pilots haven't had nearly the same level of DACT, large scale exercises, cross training, etc.... as US/allied pilots. China doesn't have the airbase dispersion/tanking advantages of US/allied forces, which makes it more difficult for them to affect our sortie rates vs our ability to affect theirs. After 2021, F-35Cs will be added to the mix, in addition to USAF/USMC, Japanese, South Korean, and Australian F-35s. Further into the decade, B-21s will start entering service, too.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 06 Jul 2019, 16:30
by mixelflick
It sounds as if the F-35 got here just in time then. That, and of course training..

It worries me though, that we're a little over-confident in air superiority. Confidence is great, but several pilots I've spoken to have said (in one case word for word): "Nobody can touch us air to air...". An F-22 pilot I spoke with was rather dismissive of the SU-57, but attached great worry to Russian built Chinese platforms. He basically said China takes a lot of stuff from Russia, tweaks it and they become very capable. Further stated that they don't train to defeat Russian air to air fighters as much as Chinese Flankers. "That's what we train for", was his parting comment.

Finally, I've spent a great deal of time studying the J/C-31. It doesn't appear to convey many (if any) advantages vs. the F-35, and certainly not the F-22 (or even the forthcoming F-15EX). I'm not sure why, but the progress they displayed in the J-20 just doesn't seem to translate into the J/C-31. I could be wrong, but I guess we'll see...

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 06 Jul 2019, 19:12
by wrightwing
Nobody's over-confident. It's an objective fact that their pilots do not have anywhere near the experience/training of western/allied pilots. When you don't have a cross pollenization of ideas/tactics (which only comes from training with myriad air forces) and based upon real world combat experience (when was the last time the Chinese air force flew in combat,) your training syllabus is going to come up lacking. Even when it comes to flight hours, their pilots don't fly as often as western/allied pilots. Now factor in platform and system superiority, on top of superior pilots. That F-22 pilot was stating fact.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 07 Jul 2019, 05:36
by weasel1962
Add OPLAN 5000 thru 5077. 60 years to develop, tweak and refine. The guys up there know what they need to do both at the strategic and tactical level. The only risk is a tweet to implement a new T-PLAN at the last minute.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 07 Jul 2019, 23:44
by Corsair1963
mixelflick wrote:It sounds as if the F-35 got here just in time then. That, and of course training..

It worries me though, that we're a little over-confident in air superiority. Confidence is great, but several pilots I've spoken to have said (in one case word for word): "Nobody can touch us air to air...". An F-22 pilot I spoke with was rather dismissive of the SU-57, but attached great worry to Russian built Chinese platforms. He basically said China takes a lot of stuff from Russia, tweaks it and they become very capable. Further stated that they don't train to defeat Russian air to air fighters as much as Chinese Flankers. "That's what we train for", was his parting comment.

Finally, I've spent a great deal of time studying the J/C-31. It doesn't appear to convey many (if any) advantages vs. the F-35, and certainly not the F-22 (or even the forthcoming F-15EX). I'm not sure why, but the progress they displayed in the J-20 just doesn't seem to translate into the J/C-31. I could be wrong, but I guess we'll see...


For all we know the J-31 may have better Stealth and Sensor Fusion (Situational Awareness) than the J-20. As a matter of fact considering it was developed after the J-20. Odds are good......

Nor, have I seen anything that would support the J-20 has better flight performance either???

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 08 Jul 2019, 09:37
by zero-one
I think we still universally agree that the Chinese are still behind the Russians in engine technology and perhaps some metals.

viewtopic.php?f=36&t=54960
- The 117S engine is very good. It has 13% more dry thrust than the older AL-31F, which is already superior to the domestic WS-10.


But judging by the words of PLAAF pilots who have assessed the Su-35, it seems that the Chinese have well overtaken them in electronic components technology.

The N035E is an excellent PESA radar. It's pretty much the best PESA radar you can practically develop.

- However, it's substantially weaker than the current generation of Chinese AESAs.

- The N035E radar has some interesting features, for example it is capable of detecting a target at extended ranges (350km) if it's only required to scan a small area (about the size of the HUD). This is not particularly useful without AWACs cueing.

- ESM/ECM systems are not as good as the J-16s. If the J16 were to be rated a 10/10, the Su-35 would be an 8.5/10 on ESM and 8/10 on ECM performance.

- The IRST is also worse, due to the state of the Russian electronics/optics industry.

- The R-77 and R-73 can be used on China's older stock of Russian fighters (Su-27/Su-30MKKs).

- R-77/R-73 are unremarkable, and performance trails the Chinese PL-10 and PL-15 missiles. (Wouldn't the PL-8 and PL-12 be a better comparison?)


Is it safe to assume that Chinese front line fighters would be as capable as European or American 4th gens in sensors, ECM and weaponry. Perhaps, Super Hornet block 1 or Rafale levels

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 08 Jul 2019, 19:52
by swiss
zero-one wrote:Is it safe to assume that Chinese front line fighters would be as capable as European or American 4th gens in sensors, ECM and weaponry. Perhaps, Super Hornet block 1 or Rafale levels


Yes that could be possible. So radar wise we would talk about APG-73/ RBE2 PESA level. Although the figures of the new Chinese AESA RADAR are not impressive compare the latest western AESA Radars. Its roughly on the same level like the Zhuk-AME. Which should be available in a view years for the Mig-35.

The radar uses a 3GHz bandwidth at the X-band, provides detection of fighter-sized targets at 170 km, tracks up to 15 targets simultaneously and engages four with air/air missiles. The radar also supports air/ground modes, with one-meter SAR resolution and terrain mapping at 300 km. Searching targets at sea, the radar can detect large targets from 200 km. The planar AESA array measures 60×60 cm and weighs 69 kg. The processor and power module weigh another less than 35 kg. The array consumes 3,200 VA of power.


Image

https://defense-update.com/20181106_lfk601e.html

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 08 Jul 2019, 21:03
by wrightwing
swiss wrote:
zero-one wrote:Is it safe to assume that Chinese front line fighters would be as capable as European or American 4th gens in sensors, ECM and weaponry. Perhaps, Super Hornet block 1 or Rafale levels


Yes that could be possible. So radar wise we would talk about APG-73/ RBE2 PESA level. Although the figures of the new Chinese AESA RADAR are not impressive compare the latest western AESA Radars. Its roughly on the same level like the Zhuk-AME. Which should be available in a view years for the Mig-35.

The radar uses a 3GHz bandwidth at the X-band, provides detection of fighter-sized targets at 170 km, tracks up to 15 targets simultaneously and engages four with air/air missiles. The radar also supports air/ground modes, with one-meter SAR resolution and terrain mapping at 300 km. Searching targets at sea, the radar can detect large targets from 200 km. The planar AESA array measures 60×60 cm and weighs 69 kg. The processor and power module weigh another less than 35 kg. The array consumes 3,200 VA of power.


Image

https://defense-update.com/20181106_lfk601e.html


The question is what size fighter target are they using? (F-15/Su-27, F-16, or clean F-18/Typhoon/Rafale) As for A2G/sea search, what size is a large target? What range does it have against "small" targets?

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 08 Jul 2019, 21:08
by sprstdlyscottsmn
Back in the day, "Fighter sized" meant 5m^2.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 08 Jul 2019, 22:22
by swiss
wrightwing wrote:
swiss wrote:
zero-one wrote:Is it safe to assume that Chinese front line fighters would be as capable as European or American 4th gens in sensors, ECM and weaponry. Perhaps, Super Hornet block 1 or Rafale levels


Yes that could be possible. So radar wise we would talk about APG-73/ RBE2 PESA level. Although the figures of the new Chinese AESA RADAR are not impressive compare the latest western AESA Radars. Its roughly on the same level like the Zhuk-AME. Which should be available in a view years for the Mig-35.

The radar uses a 3GHz bandwidth at the X-band, provides detection of fighter-sized targets at 170 km, tracks up to 15 targets simultaneously and engages four with air/air missiles. The radar also supports air/ground modes, with one-meter SAR resolution and terrain mapping at 300 km. Searching targets at sea, the radar can detect large targets from 200 km. The planar AESA array measures 60×60 cm and weighs 69 kg. The processor and power module weigh another less than 35 kg. The array consumes 3,200 VA of power.


Image

https://defense-update.com/20181106_lfk601e.html


The question is what size fighter target are they using? (F-15/Su-27, F-16, or clean F-18/Typhoon/Rafale) As for A2G/sea search, what size is a large target? What range does it have against "small" targets?


Like spurts said in past it was 5m2. Today 3m2 seems the norm. Also for the predecessor of the Chinese AESA Radar.

http://www.jf-17.com/avionics/

And max SAR Resolution is 1m. Thats bad even for older MSA Radars. APG-68V9 or Captor-D have a lower Resolution.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 09 Jul 2019, 08:00
by zero-one
Some good discussions on Chinese Radar tech here:
https://www.sinodefenceforum.com/chines ... ers.t6755/

Basically the unanswered question is if they have reached parity with the US in T/R packaging and will they be able to fit the desired number in the nose cone of their current platforms.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 09 Jul 2019, 20:45
by wrightwing
zero-one wrote:Some good discussions on Chinese Radar tech here:
https://www.sinodefenceforum.com/chines ... ers.t6755/

Basically the unanswered question is if they have reached parity with the US in T/R packaging and will they be able to fit the desired number in the nose cone of their current platforms.

The short answer is no.