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Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2019, 20:17
by blain
First, McCain was not the sharpest tool in the shed. Gates was a Soviet analyst at the CIA - where he no doubt had a track record of being wrong about a lot of things. I just finished reading a book about the CIA program to help Solidarity in Poland. Gates recommended against it. Fortunately Bill Casey and Ronald Reagan didn't listen to him.

Is anyone shocked Gates was wrong about China? Maybe the intel was wrong, but he of all people should have been able to do his own analysis.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2019, 22:51
by Corsair1963
sferrin wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:Absurd.....a drop in the bucket at near $200 Million each! :doh:



Flyaway cost was down to about $125 million when they killed production.



No it was $133 Million and that was a decade or more ago....

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2019, 23:04
by Corsair1963
blain wrote:First, McCain was not the sharpest tool in the shed. Gates was a Soviet analyst at the CIA - where he no doubt had a track record of being wrong about a lot of things. I just finished reading a book about the CIA program to help Solidarity in Poland. Gates recommended against it. Fortunately Bill Casey and Ronald Reagan didn't listen to him.

Is anyone shocked Gates was wrong about China? Maybe the intel was wrong, but he of all people should have been able to do his own analysis.




LOL

John McCain was a ranking member and then Chairmen of the US Senate Armed Services Committee. In addition he was Naval Academy graduate and USN Fighter Pilot. He has numerous military decorations and awards include the Silver Star, two Legion of Merits, Distinguished Flying Cross, three Bronze Star Medals, two Purple Hearts, two Navy and Marine Corps Commendation Medals, and the Prisoner of War Medal.

JMMX.jpg



There is "no one here" more qualified on the subject than John McCain. :doh:

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2019, 23:15
by Corsair1963
sferrin wrote:
Had nothing to do with "budget constraints". Gates predicted it would be 20 years before anybody else rolled out a stealth fighter, and fired anybody who disagreed. It was hilariously ironic only a couple years later when China rolled out the J-20 during a state visit by Gates.

As for name-dropping, nobody cares who you interviewed. Most of Congress wouldn't know their a$$ from a hole in the ground when it comes to today's fighter aircraft. (Including McCain.)


You spoke to John McCain or others directly involved in the process at the time??? Please, enlighten us.... :wink:

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2019, 00:32
by disconnectedradical
Corsair1963 wrote:LOL

John McCain was a ranking member and then Chairmen of the US Senate Armed Services Committee. In addition he was Naval Academy graduate and USN Fighter Pilot. He has numerous military decorations and awards include the Silver Star, two Legion of Merits, Distinguished Flying Cross, three Bronze Star Medals, two Purple Hearts, two Navy and Marine Corps Commendation Medals, and the Prisoner of War Medal.

JMMX.jpg



There is "no one here" more qualified on the subject than John McCain. :doh:


So cutting F-22 production is right just because John McCain supports that? Appeal to authority much? What does John McCain’s military service, which is no doubt exemplary, have to do with anything to do with making qualified decision on USAF fighter force? His service doesn’t make him immune to mistakes. You can be the best soldier and have the Medal of Honor but that doesn’t make you qualified on air power, especially since McCain is from totally different combat generation.

And none of this at all support your statement of how cutting F-22 makes F-35 “viable”. F-35 still happens and get bought in large numbers even if USAF got 381 F-22s they wanted. And some of F-35’s cost problems is the program’s own fault, should other programs be sacrificed to make up for that?

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2019, 01:25
by sferrin
Corsair1963 wrote:
sferrin wrote:
Had nothing to do with "budget constraints". Gates predicted it would be 20 years before anybody else rolled out a stealth fighter, and fired anybody who disagreed. It was hilariously ironic only a couple years later when China rolled out the J-20 during a state visit by Gates.

As for name-dropping, nobody cares who you interviewed. Most of Congress wouldn't know their a$$ from a hole in the ground when it comes to today's fighter aircraft. (Including McCain.)


You spoke to John McCain or others directly involved in the process at the time??? Please, enlighten us.... :wink:


Do I need to? Really? Have you ever actually heard what he had to say about the F-35? Do you think he was accurate?

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2019, 01:41
by charlielima223
Corsair1963 wrote:

LOL

John McCain was a ranking member and then Chairmen of the US Senate Armed Services Committee. In addition he was Naval Academy graduate and USN Fighter Pilot. He has numerous military decorations and awards include the Silver Star, two Legion of Merits, Distinguished Flying Cross, three Bronze Star Medals, two Purple Hearts, two Navy and Marine Corps Commendation Medals, and the Prisoner of War Medal.

Image


There is "no one here" more qualified on the subject than John McCain. :doh:


God rest his soul

Don't get me wrong, that is an impressive salad bar but that doesn't mean that he is a expert in all things military...


As others have pointed out, he is a man from another area and his views and opinions are not reflective on current trends and tactics. I'm not going to appeal to a Special Forces Operator on aspects of air combat nor will I appeal to a fighter pilot from the 60s about modern air combat.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2019, 01:51
by Corsair1963
sferrin wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:
sferrin wrote:
Had nothing to do with "budget constraints". Gates predicted it would be 20 years before anybody else rolled out a stealth fighter, and fired anybody who disagreed. It was hilariously ironic only a couple years later when China rolled out the J-20 during a state visit by Gates.

As for name-dropping, nobody cares who you interviewed. Most of Congress wouldn't know their a$$ from a hole in the ground when it comes to today's fighter aircraft. (Including McCain.)


You spoke to John McCain or others directly involved in the process at the time??? Please, enlighten us.... :wink:


Do I need to? Really? Have you ever actually heard what he had to say about the F-35? Do you think he was accurate?


I did speak about the John McCain about the F-35 a couple of times. As I was often unhappy of his criticism of the JSF Program. Yet, you have to understand the man. (many don't) As he was out spoken and critical. In order to get the best product and price for the US Taxpayer. You don't do that often with praise.....You think Lt. Gen. Chris Bogdan (former JPO F-35) was easy on Lockheed Martin, Pratt & Whitney, and the other F-35 Suppliers. That doesn't mean they didn't support the F-35 and are happy with the end product.

As for the F-22 John McCain and Robert Gates know far more about the F-22 and what lead to it's cancelation. Than anybody here......that I know.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2019, 01:54
by Corsair1963
charlielima223 wrote:

There is "no one here" more qualified on the subject than John McCain. :doh:


God rest his soul

Don't get me wrong, that is an impressive salad bar but that doesn't mean that he is a expert in all things military...


As others have pointed out, he is a man from another area and his views and opinions are not reflective on current trends and tactics. I'm not going to appeal to a Special Forces Operator on aspects of air combat nor will I appeal to a fighter pilot from the 60s about modern air combat.[/quote]

ABSURD.........John McCain was an Naval Aviator and was closely involved with all of the issues and had direct classified access. Nobody here could come remotely close to that.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2019, 03:08
by sferrin
Corsair1963 wrote:I did speak about the John McCain about the F-35 a couple of times. As I was often unhappy of his criticism of the JSF Program. Yet, you have to understand the man. (many don't) As he was out spoken and critical. In order to get the best product and price for the US Taxpayer. You don't do that often with praise.....You think Lt. Gen. Chris Bogdan (former JPO F-35) was easy on Lockheed Martin, Pratt & Whitney, and the other F-35 Suppliers. That doesn't mean they didn't support the F-35 and are happy with the end product.

As for the F-22 John McCain and Robert Gates know far more about the F-22 and what lead to it's cancelation. Than anybody here......that I know.


It's one thing to be demanding. Quite another to spout uninformed bull$hit. (He's not alone there. Trump needs to lay off EMALS for example.)

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2019, 05:07
by Corsair1963
sferrin wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:I did speak about the John McCain about the F-35 a couple of times. As I was often unhappy of his criticism of the JSF Program. Yet, you have to understand the man. (many don't) As he was out spoken and critical. In order to get the best product and price for the US Taxpayer. You don't do that often with praise.....You think Lt. Gen. Chris Bogdan (former JPO F-35) was easy on Lockheed Martin, Pratt & Whitney, and the other F-35 Suppliers. That doesn't mean they didn't support the F-35 and are happy with the end product.

As for the F-22 John McCain and Robert Gates know far more about the F-22 and what lead to it's cancelation. Than anybody here......that I know.


It's one thing to be demanding. Quite another to spout uninformed bull$hit. (He's not alone there. Trump needs to lay off EMALS for example.)


That is your opinion...... :|

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2019, 11:06
by madrat
You cannot have thin skin in the business of arms making. You let results speak.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2019, 11:58
by sferrin
Corsair1963 wrote:
sferrin wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:I did speak about the John McCain about the F-35 a couple of times. As I was often unhappy of his criticism of the JSF Program. Yet, you have to understand the man. (many don't) As he was out spoken and critical. In order to get the best product and price for the US Taxpayer. You don't do that often with praise.....You think Lt. Gen. Chris Bogdan (former JPO F-35) was easy on Lockheed Martin, Pratt & Whitney, and the other F-35 Suppliers. That doesn't mean they didn't support the F-35 and are happy with the end product.

As for the F-22 John McCain and Robert Gates know far more about the F-22 and what lead to it's cancelation. Than anybody here......that I know.


It's one thing to be demanding. Quite another to spout uninformed bull$hit. (He's not alone there. Trump needs to lay off EMALS for example.)


That is your opinion...... :|


Really?

"John McCain slammed the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter's troubled history Tuesday, saying it "has been both a scandal and a tragedy with respect to cost, schedule and performance."

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2019, 20:36
by blain
Corsair1963 wrote:
blain wrote:First, McCain was not the sharpest tool in the shed. Gates was a Soviet analyst at the CIA - where he no doubt had a track record of being wrong about a lot of things. I just finished reading a book about the CIA program to help Solidarity in Poland. Gates recommended against it. Fortunately Bill Casey and Ronald Reagan didn't listen to him.

Is anyone shocked Gates was wrong about China? Maybe the intel was wrong, but he of all people should have been able to do his own analysis.




LOL

John McCain was a ranking member and then Chairmen of the US Senate Armed Services Committee. In addition he was Naval Academy graduate and USN Fighter Pilot. He has numerous military decorations and awards include the Silver Star, two Legion of Merits, Distinguished Flying Cross, three Bronze Star Medals, two Purple Hearts, two Navy and Marine Corps Commendation Medals, and the Prisoner of War Medal.

JMMX.jpg



There is "no one here" more qualified on the subject than John McCain. :doh:


Very few doubt his bravery or his commitment to service. I never indicated that. But his naval academy rank is awful. If his dad was a plumber would he have been booted? He topped out as a CO of a training squadron. Odd for someone who the son and grandson of two prominent admirals. Then we have his involvement in the Keating Five scandal. And his erratic behavior as a Senator and presidential candidate. Could be that why his Navy career ended?

I'm sure he was a joy to work for.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 21 Jun 2019, 18:04
by mixelflick
The whole F-22 fiasco was embarrassing for our nation, and I hope the "powers that be" learned some lessons..

We built (hands down) the most fearsome air superiority fighter in existence. We were 30 years ahead of the threat with just the PROTOTYPES. When we had the opportunity to buy meaningful numbers (at a much lower price), we balked. The buck has to stop with someone, and that's Secretary Gates IMO. He made a horrible decision, which has hamstrung our air superiority fleet in no small fashion.

Right down to the long term storage of tooling shenanigans, we f'd it up bad. And I have to believe those in Russia and China breathed a sigh of relief and still get a good laugh about it. Yes, the F-35 is a great fighter too and should neutralize the threat, but the game will be a lot closer in the end vs. the blowout it should have been.