IAF Plans To Re-Arm Its Sukhois With Israeli Missiles

Unread postPosted: 29 May 2019, 03:12
by Corsair1963
NEW DELHI --- In two years from now, the Indian Air Force's frontline Sukhoi-30 fighters may be re-armed with Israeli Derby air-to-air missiles after the jet's Russian-made R-77 missiles were found wanting in air combat operations over the Line of Control on February 27 this year.

Sources in the Indian Air Force told NDTV, "We already have the missile as part of the SPYDER (Surface-to-Air Missile) system. Integration (with the IAF's Su-30s) is the next step.''

Retaliating to the IAF strike on the Jaish-e-Mohammed training facility in Balakot on February 26, the Pakistan Air Force aggressively positioned a large formation of 24 fighters near the Line of Control (LoC). A handful of these jets managed to cross the LoC to fire precision-guided glide bombs towards Indian military positions in the Rajouri sector.

Eight Indian Air Force fighters, including two Sukhoi-30 MKI jets, were vectored to intercept the Pakistani formation when they detected the launch of several US-made AIM-120 C5 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAM) in their direction.

''The PAF surprised the IAF by launching air-to-air missiles from inside Pakistan-occupied Kashmir," says Sameer Joshi, an IAF veteran who flew Mirage 2000 fighters during the Kargil conflict. ''The AMRAAM effectively outranged the IAF air-to-air missiles which did not get a command to launch," he said.

Among the Indian Air Force's fighters which were targeted were two Sukhoi-30s which managed to evade the AMRAAMs which were fired at close to their maximum range of 100 kilometres. Fully defensive and desperate to escape the incoming AMRAAMs, the IAF Sukhoi-30s escaped being shot down but were unable to retaliate [against] the F-16s because they were out of position and their own missiles, the Russian R-77s, did not have the range to realistically engage the Pakistani fighters.

IAF sources told NDTV that the Russian missiles do not match its advertised range and cannot engage targets which are more than 80 kilometres away............

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/outgunn ... es-2044172

Re: IAF Plans To Re-Arm Its Sukhois With Israeli Missiles

Unread postPosted: 29 May 2019, 03:46
by disconnectedradical
Russian missiles aren't all they hyped to be after all. IAF almost demanded refund on R-77 because of poor reliability.

Re: IAF Plans To Re-Arm Its Sukhois With Israeli Missiles

Unread postPosted: 29 May 2019, 04:57
by Corsair1963
disconnectedradical wrote:Russian missiles aren't all they hyped to be after all. IAF almost demanded refund on R-77 because of poor reliability.



Problem is the R-77 is the Russian equivalent to the AIM-120. (Amraam) :wink:

Re: IAF Plans To Re-Arm Its Sukhois With Israeli Missiles

Unread postPosted: 29 May 2019, 06:22
by geforcerfx
wonder if they have the AE or SD variant, either one should be similar range, the M is the first one to advertise decent range comparable to the modern AMRAAMs.

Re: IAF Plans To Re-Arm Its Sukhois With Israeli Missiles

Unread postPosted: 29 May 2019, 09:12
by disconnectedradical
geforcerfx wrote:wonder if they have the AE or SD variant, either one should be similar range, the M is the first one to advertise decent range comparable to the modern AMRAAMs.


Probably AE, India and China were some of the first RVV-AE customers, RVV-SD didn't come out until recently.

Re: IAF Plans To Re-Arm Its Sukhois With Israeli Missiles

Unread postPosted: 29 May 2019, 10:23
by juretrn
Doesn't the C5 already have the capability to be lofted (datalink, improved INS, etc) unlike early R-77 (or early model AMRAAM)?

Re: IAF Plans To Re-Arm Its Sukhois With Israeli Missiles

Unread postPosted: 30 May 2019, 04:54
by knowan
What a surprise, Russian military equipment not performing as advertised!


juretrn wrote:Doesn't the C5 already have the capability to be lofted (datalink, improved INS, etc) unlike early R-77 (or early model AMRAAM)?


AIM-7M had loft capability, so early AIM-120s probably did. I think later AIM-120s increased the loft angle.

Re: IAF Plans To Re-Arm Its Sukhois With Israeli Missiles

Unread postPosted: 30 May 2019, 15:30
by mixelflick
knowan wrote:What a surprise, Russian military equipment not performing as advertised!


juretrn wrote:Doesn't the C5 already have the capability to be lofted (datalink, improved INS, etc) unlike early R-77 (or early model AMRAAM)?


AIM-7M had loft capability, so early AIM-120s probably did. I think later AIM-120s increased the loft angle.



Wasn't the R-77 supposed to address the shortcomings of their previous BVR missile, the R-27? This makes two instances of Russian BVR weapons performing miserably. Sending the IAF's biggest, baddest fighter running for its life had to be humiliating indeed. Between the engines and BVR missiles, this should be a powerful lesson for the Indians.

Methinks the Mig-35 won't have much of a chance in their upcoming fighter tender...

Re: IAF Plans To Re-Arm Its Sukhois With Israeli Missiles

Unread postPosted: 30 May 2019, 16:47
by knowan
mixelflick wrote:Wasn't the R-77 supposed to address the shortcomings of their previous BVR missile, the R-27? This makes two instances of Russian BVR weapons performing miserably. Sending the IAF's biggest, baddest fighter running for its life had to be humiliating indeed. Between the engines and BVR missiles, this should be a powerful lesson for the Indians.

Methinks the Mig-35 won't have much of a chance in their upcoming fighter tender...


Apparently one of the reasons the RuAF was so slow to adopt the R-77 is how miserable its kinematics are even compared to the R-27, which had around half the kinematic range of AIM-120A/B and AIM-7M.

Re: IAF Plans To Re-Arm Its Sukhois With Israeli Missiles

Unread postPosted: 30 May 2019, 17:09
by geforcerfx
Maybe the IAF will be more impressed with the F-21 now :devil: especially if offered c7 or maybe even D RAAMs.

Re: IAF Plans To Re-Arm Its Sukhois With Israeli Missiles

Unread postPosted: 30 May 2019, 18:29
by sprstdlyscottsmn
knowan wrote:
Apparently one of the reasons the RuAF was so slow to adopt the R-77 is how miserable its kinematics are even compared to the R-27, which had around half the kinematic range of AIM-120A/B and AIM-7M.

Those grid fins that they wanted for agility end up creating tons of drag. The R-27ET is a more credible threat as far as I'm concerned.

Re: IAF Plans To Re-Arm Its Sukhois With Israeli Missiles

Unread postPosted: 30 May 2019, 21:16
by swiss
sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:
knowan wrote:
Apparently one of the reasons the RuAF was so slow to adopt the R-77 is how miserable its kinematics are even compared to the R-27, which had around half the kinematic range of AIM-120A/B and AIM-7M.

Those grid fins that they wanted for agility end up creating tons of drag. The R-27ET is a more credible threat as far as I'm concerned.


I assume we talk only about the kinematically advantage? The IR Seeker should be outdated by far today.

Re: IAF Plans To Re-Arm Its Sukhois With Israeli Missiles

Unread postPosted: 30 May 2019, 21:41
by sprstdlyscottsmn
swiss wrote:I assume we talk only about the kinematically advantage? The IR Seeker should be outdated by far today.

Oh yes, I am referring to R-27 vs R-77 only here.

Re: IAF Plans To Re-Arm Its Sukhois With Israeli Missiles

Unread postPosted: 31 May 2019, 13:01
by mixelflick
The SU-30MKI has to really frost the Indians.

On the one hand, airframe has a great potential. Extremely agile for any size, it also has a fine radar and E/W systems. But recurring problems with its engines/weapons rendered it on the defensive in the latest conflict, and that was against early model F-16's and AMRAAM's.

It makes you wonder how potent a weapons system it could be with say GE F-110 engines, AIM-120C/D AMRAAM's and a few other bells and whistles (like a good AESA radar). They bought in big with it too, and are even thinking of buying more.

Unless they get the engine/radar/weapons ironed out though, I think its a long shot. If politics wasn't an issue, I could see them flying the F/A-18, Typhoon's or even the F-15 Super Eagle for their heavy air superiority platform. The latter two I think would be fantastic (from a strictly capability perspective, not logistical).

Re: IAF Plans To Re-Arm Its Sukhois With Israeli Missiles

Unread postPosted: 01 Jun 2019, 01:59
by knowan
mixelflick wrote:recurring problems with its engines/weapons


More than just engines and weapons: https://www.defensenews.com/air/2017/03 ... arts-deal/
"The [Su-30MKI] fleet is prohibitively expensive equipment and faces problems due to high, premature failure rate of subsystems like engines, radars, missiles, avionics, etc.," said Vinod Kumar Narang, a retired Indian Air Force air vice-marshal.

Re: IAF Plans To Re-Arm Its Sukhois With Israeli Missiles

Unread postPosted: 01 Jun 2019, 02:00
by Shimud
geforcerfx wrote:Maybe the IAF will be more impressed with the F-21 now :devil: especially if offered c7 or maybe even D RAAMs.


They have shot themselves in the feet while claiming a PAF F-16 down (even if its just for public consumption and propaganda). It doesn't make any difference if its an F-16 or F-21. Stands no chance.

mixelflick wrote:...If politics wasn't an issue, I could see them flying the F/A-18, Typhoon's or even the F-15 Super Eagle for their heavy air superiority platform. The latter two I think would be fantastic (from a strictly capability perspective, not logistical).


Slim chance Indians will go for a US system. By experience, they know well that in any future conflict, they will face as many embargoes and sanctions, as their adversaries.

They could probably afford a sanctions prone C-130 or P-8 but not an F-15 or an F-16/F-21.

Re: IAF Plans To Re-Arm Its Sukhois With Israeli Missiles

Unread postPosted: 01 Jun 2019, 12:37
by icemaverick
They will be getting the Meteor with the Rafale buy. That will give the IAF a more potent BVR missile along with a more effective launching platform. I’m guessing the Israelis have pretty advanced air-to-air missiles in their inventory...certainly better than the Russian missiles.

They won’t get the Typhoon when they are already buying a similar Eurocannard.

Re: IAF Plans To Re-Arm Its Sukhois With Israeli Missiles

Unread postPosted: 01 Jun 2019, 18:09
by milosh
knowan wrote:
mixelflick wrote:recurring problems with its engines/weapons


More than just engines and weapons: https://www.defensenews.com/air/2017/03 ... arts-deal/
"The [Su-30MKI] fleet is prohibitively expensive equipment and faces problems due to high, premature failure rate of subsystems like engines, radars, missiles, avionics, etc.," said Vinod Kumar Narang, a retired Indian Air Force air vice-marshal.


Narang noted that the major issue regarding maintenance is not the supply of spare parts but rather the rapidity of repairs of line-replaceable units and shop-repairable units. He asserted that the Russian suppliers make good money by supplying new spare parts at solid profit margins,but are always reluctant to quickly make repairs at 25 percent of the cost of new items.


Lol, it would be very funny when they start crying why French doesn't want to do cheap quick repairs instead selling them new part!

Btw, India is only country which operate Flankers and succeed to **** up nice number of engines.
They try to be smarter then engine maker, so they use different oil.

Do I need to say which oil was cheaper?

icemaverick wrote:They will be getting the Meteor with the Rafale buy. That will give the IAF a more potent BVR missile along with a more effective launching platform. I’m guessing the Israelis have pretty advanced air-to-air missiles in their inventory...certainly better than the Russian missiles.

They won’t get the Typhoon when they are already buying a similar Eurocannard.


Not gonna happen even if there isn't sanctions war between EU and Russia, giving Meteor to Flankers would be as shooting in leg, last thing eurocanards need is Flanker which can carry Meteor.

On other hand Bibi and Putin look like have bromance and it look like Israel is favorite location for russian oligarhs which are leaving west, so integration of Derby doesn't look problematic at all.

Re: IAF Plans To Re-Arm Its Sukhois With Israeli Missiles

Unread postPosted: 02 Jun 2019, 00:00
by geforcerfx
Shimud wrote:

Slim chance Indians will go for a US system. By experience, they know well that in any future conflict, they will face as many embargoes and sanctions, as their adversaries.

They could probably afford a sanctions prone C-130 or P-8 but not an F-15 or an F-16/F-21.


There home built aircraft is using a US engine and some avionics with us parts doesn't seem to trouble them too but much. The F-21 or Rhino wouldn't be the only aircraft in inventory so sanctions would only hamper 20-30% of the fleet and if they have sufficient parts stored away ( with the made in India requirement I think that would be easier) they could carry on a decent length engagement with sanctions overhead. If the Lockheed got approval for moving all F-16 production to India sanction would prob be limited and the USA would try to mediate vs sanction the parties involved.

Long term the USA is looking at India as a potential key allie against China.

Re: IAF Plans To Re-Arm Its Sukhois With Israeli Missiles

Unread postPosted: 02 Jun 2019, 03:41
by vm
Let's not miss 2 important points -
1. ROE - What instructions did the Indians have regarding targeting Pakistani planes, which were deep inside Pakistani airspace? Obviously the Pakistanis had permission to fire at IAF planes in Indian airspace. So if your plane gets painted and you detect missiles on their way, what does a typical pilot do ? He evades.
So let's not just jump to a conclusion that the mki failed based on unclear roe.
This was not open warfare, where you are ordered to shoot down the enemy in every engagement.
2. The positives for the mki are -
It detected that it was a target of incoming missiles. The biggest unknown about Russian planes is their sensors capability. Like the mig21 was likely surprised and had no clue about the incoming missile.
And 2nd positive is that the 5 missiles were successfully evaded. So the mki has the legs to evade sophisticated American missiles which PAF has in the thousands.

The real picture will come after the next terror attack in India. I believe all gloves will be off this time and the conflict will be more prolonged.

Re: IAF Plans To Re-Arm Its Sukhois With Israeli Missiles

Unread postPosted: 02 Jun 2019, 04:02
by Corsair1963
With the Indian Defense Budget in decline. Can she afford to waste anymore time on the LCA/AMCA/MMRCA??? :?

Re: IAF Plans To Re-Arm Its Sukhois With Israeli Missiles

Unread postPosted: 02 Jun 2019, 04:40
by icemaverick
milosh wrote:
knowan wrote:
mixelflick wrote:recurring problems with its engines/weapons


More than just engines and weapons: https://www.defensenews.com/air/2017/03 ... arts-deal/
"The [Su-30MKI] fleet is prohibitively expensive equipment and faces problems due to high, premature failure rate of subsystems like engines, radars, missiles, avionics, etc.," said Vinod Kumar Narang, a retired Indian Air Force air vice-marshal.


Narang noted that the major issue regarding maintenance is not the supply of spare parts but rather the rapidity of repairs of line-replaceable units and shop-repairable units. He asserted that the Russian suppliers make good money by supplying new spare parts at solid profit margins,but are always reluctant to quickly make repairs at 25 percent of the cost of new items.


Lol, it would be very funny when they start crying why French doesn't want to do cheap quick repairs instead selling them new part!

Btw, India is only country which operate Flankers and succeed to **** up nice number of engines.
They try to be smarter then engine maker, so they use different oil.

Do I need to say which oil was cheaper?

icemaverick wrote:They will be getting the Meteor with the Rafale buy. That will give the IAF a more potent BVR missile along with a more effective launching platform. I’m guessing the Israelis have pretty advanced air-to-air missiles in their inventory...certainly better than the Russian missiles.

They won’t get the Typhoon when they are already buying a similar Eurocannard.


Not gonna happen even if there isn't sanctions war between EU and Russia, giving Meteor to Flankers would be as shooting in leg, last thing eurocanards need is Flanker which can carry Meteor.

On other hand Bibi and Putin look like have bromance and it look like Israel is favorite location for russian oligarhs which are leaving west, so integration of Derby doesn't look problematic at all.


In case it wasn’t clear, the Meteor is for the Rafale, not Su-30MKI.

As for Flanker reliability, why is it that the Indians have consistently praised the reliability of their Mirages? The Iraqis had an easier time maintaining their French jets compared to their Russian ones. Russian equipment is not known for its reliability. This is why every one who can tries to get their hands on Western birds if they can afford it.

Re: IAF Plans To Re-Arm Its Sukhois With Israeli Missiles

Unread postPosted: 02 Jun 2019, 04:51
by knowan
milosh wrote:Lol, it would be very funny when they start crying why French doesn't want to do cheap quick repairs instead selling them new part!

Btw, India is only country which operate Flankers and succeed to **** up nice number of engines.
They try to be smarter then engine maker, so they use different oil.

Do I need to say which oil was cheaper?


I doubt the problem is supposed Indian incompetence; the Sukhoi Superjets are having near identical problems with numerous operators (including Russian), which is a strong indication the problem is the Russian products.


icemaverick wrote:As for Flanker reliability, why is it that the Indians have consistently praised the reliability of their Mirages? The Iraqis had an easier time maintaining their French jets compared to their Russian ones. Russian equipment is not known for its reliability. This is why every one who can tries to get their hands on Western birds if they can afford it.


Exactly. The problem isn't the users, but the planes.

Re: IAF Plans To Re-Arm Its Sukhois With Israeli Missiles

Unread postPosted: 02 Jun 2019, 04:51
by icemaverick
Corsair1963 wrote:With the Indian Defense Budget in decline. Can she afford to waste anymore time on the LCA/AMCA/MMRCA??? :?


Where did you get that information? India’s defense budget seems to be steadily increasing.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nextbi ... -2020.html

Re: IAF Plans To Re-Arm Its Sukhois With Israeli Missiles

Unread postPosted: 02 Jun 2019, 05:56
by Corsair1963
icemaverick wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:With the Indian Defense Budget in decline. Can she afford to waste anymore time on the LCA/AMCA/MMRCA??? :?


Where did you get that information? India’s defense budget seems to be steadily increasing.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nextbi ... -2020.html


DEFENSE NEWS

India gets a new defense minister
By: Vivek Raghuvanshi  
May 31, 2019


NEW DELHI — A senior politician of the right-wing Bharatiya Janata Party has been appointed the new defense minister of India.


It seems that Rajnath Singh, who previously severed as home minister and has a reputation as a taskmaster, has quite the workload ahead of him if he’s to speed up defense procurement and modernization.


Bureaucrats in the Ministry of Defence argue that the overall pace of defense purchases and contracts will slow over the next two years because of fiscal troubles.


“Singh will have very little money for new defense purchases because very little money is left for new defense purchase[s]," an MoD official said.


“The new government will have to choose priorities between Make in India defense programs or global defence purchases,” he noted, adding that no sweeping reforms are expected for at least the next two years.



Another MoD official expressed confidence that Singh will enforce anti-corruption regulations.


The Indian Army is currently committed to $4.31 billion in liabilities, with the Air Force committed to $7.40 billion and the Navy to $3.98 billion.


Under its policy aimed at bolstering the domestic industry, the government “will find it very tough to roll out big-ticket Make in India defense projects, including multirole fighters, submarines and helicopters,” according to defense analyst and retired Indian Army Maj. Gen. Mahindra Singh.


https://www.defensenews.com/global/asia ... Brkt1EOrGs

Re: IAF Plans To Re-Arm Its Sukhois With Israeli Missiles

Unread postPosted: 02 Jun 2019, 06:00
by Corsair1963
Why India’s new defence budget falls short
Rajeswari Pillai Rajagopalan


QUOTE:

Most of the 6.3 percent hike in the defence budget actually goes to meet the salary and pension requirements, thus making the allocation for modernization a lot smaller than even the previous year.


https://www.orfonline.org/research/why- ... ort-48077/

Re: IAF Plans To Re-Arm Its Sukhois With Israeli Missiles

Unread postPosted: 02 Jun 2019, 09:30
by vm
Corsair1963 wrote:Why India’s new defence budget falls short
Rajeswari Pillai Rajagopalan


QUOTE:

Most of the 6.3 percent hike in the defence budget actually goes to meet the salary and pension requirements, thus making the allocation for modernization a lot smaller than even the previous year.


https://www.orfonline.org/research/why- ... ort-48077/

Budget is large enough, even without yearly increases.
Issue is that we have 40 odd mirages, bought in the 1980s, after the paks were given f16s (around 85 now) by the Americans. These mirages were effective during the kargil war and recent conflict.
Then we have 250 odd su mki, which have their own disadvantages. Now these are unproven planes against western planes.
Around 60 odd mig29s.
And jaguars, mig21, mig27, etc.
And we get the 36 rafaels soon.

Issue is not Pakistan, but China, with its unlimited budgeted.

India should concentrate on the rafaels. No use having 100s of migs and sukhois, if they have low serviceability and unsure effectiveness.

Re: IAF Plans To Re-Arm Its Sukhois With Israeli Missiles

Unread postPosted: 02 Jun 2019, 09:43
by Corsair1963
vm wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:Why India’s new defence budget falls short
Rajeswari Pillai Rajagopalan


QUOTE:

Most of the 6.3 percent hike in the defence budget actually goes to meet the salary and pension requirements, thus making the allocation for modernization a lot smaller than even the previous year.


https://www.orfonline.org/research/why- ... ort-48077/

Budget is large enough, even without yearly increases.
Issue is that we have 40 odd mirages, bought in the 1980s, after the paks were given f16s (around 85 now) by the Americans. These mirages were effective during the kargil war and recent conflict.
Then we have 250 odd su mki, which have their own disadvantages. Now these are unproven planes against western planes.
Around 60 odd mig29s.
And jaguars, mig21, mig27, etc.
And we get the 36 rafaels soon.

Issue is not Pakistan, but China, with its unlimited budgeted.

India should concentrate on the rafaels. No use having 100s of migs and sukhois, if they have low serviceability and unsure effectiveness.


India can't rule out two front conflict with both China and Pakistan. Plus, don't see how the Rafale is going to be much help. Especially, post 2030 when China and possibly Pakistan have a fair number of Stealth Fighters. (J-20's and J-31's) :shock:

Re: IAF Plans To Re-Arm Its Sukhois With Israeli Missiles

Unread postPosted: 02 Jun 2019, 14:53
by mixelflick
He's right: Small numbers of Rafale's aren't going to fix anything. Even large numbers won't cut it, as the cost is just sky high and the required numbers won't get them to where they want to be.

My guess is the Mig-35 will be their ultimate choice. It's Russian, which fits their current modus operandi. It'll be on the cheaper side of the available options, and combined with an AESA, improved weapons/more fuel and thrust vectoring engines, convey a small but meaningful edge over most of PAK's inventory. Not quite a light fighter but not quite heavy either, it lives in the spaces in between.

It will not however, be enough to counter China's vast array of Flanker derivatives, J-10B's and C's to say nothing of their new stealth bird (J-20). The only thing that'll allow India to go toe to toe with China is the F-35, and doubtful that gets sold. There's a longshot they buy the SU-57, but it's real long IMO. If you're going to play the stealth game, you need a (truly) stealth bird. And so far, the SU-57 is not - to say nothing of its other issues.

As for the rest of the field, each aircraft has at least one big strike against it..

The F-16V (or F-21 lol) will be much more expensive than the Mig-35 and in some respects (WVR dogfights) inferior. More Rafale's are too expensive. The Advanced SH for India too heavy/expensive and again US jets are a longshot. The Typhoon I don't even think is in the running, but they've never bought from the EF consortium and doubt they'll start now. The Gripen? Not sure if it has "Indian DNA" built into it LOL. It's way too small though, can't carry enough and completely outclassed by even earlier model F-16's.

Add to that the fact the Indian Navy is already operating the Mig-29K and it makes the Mig-35 the odds on favorite IMO. I wonder if the decision will be made in my lifetime LOL. I'm 50 btw... :)

Re: IAF Plans To Re-Arm Its Sukhois With Israeli Missiles

Unread postPosted: 02 Jun 2019, 16:01
by knowan
mixelflick wrote:My guess is the Mig-35 will be their ultimate choice. It's Russian, which fits their current modus operandi. It'll be on the cheaper side of the available options, and combined with an AESA, improved weapons/more fuel and thrust vectoring engines, convey a small but meaningful edge over most of PAK's inventory. Not quite a light fighter but not quite heavy either, it lives in the spaces in between.


MiG-35 production version doesn't have AESA or thrust vectoring; those features were only on earlier prototypes, but removed for later versions.
It's really just a rebadged MiG-29K.

And India hasn't exactly had a great experience with their MiG-29Ks either; lots of reliability issues and something like 62% of the engines were withdrawn due to 'design defects'.

Re: IAF Plans To Re-Arm Its Sukhois With Israeli Missiles

Unread postPosted: 02 Jun 2019, 18:24
by milosh
knowan wrote:
milosh wrote:Lol, it would be very funny when they start crying why French doesn't want to do cheap quick repairs instead selling them new part!

Btw, India is only country which operate Flankers and succeed to **** up nice number of engines.
They try to be smarter then engine maker, so they use different oil.

Do I need to say which oil was cheaper?


I doubt the problem is supposed Indian incompetence; the Sukhoi Superjets are having near identical problems with numerous operators (including Russian), which is a strong indication the problem is the Russian products.


WTF have SSJ with Flanker? Nothing. In fact biggest problem with now is engine which is French, until investigation report we can't know is it some design problem or French part or something Russians did wrong.

Only country in world which is crying about Su-30 is India. Countries with much smaller budget don't have problem maintain it but India have. China for example have its own engine refurbish facility so they do refurbishing. But this indian smart a$$ would like Russians to do for them refurbish, which not gonna happen.

@mixelflick


I really doubt India consider MiG-35 at all, at least until RuAF get them and I mean version with AESA radar. How things look now RuAF doesn't want it, they want more Su-35, it have more powerful radar which would be easily upgradable to Su-57 AESA in future and Su-35 is bargain.

To me it was huge error they did that MiG-35, MiG would be lot better to focus on MiG-31 replacement or restart of MiG-31 production but with latest electronics, engines and weapons then they (and state) invest in MiG-35.

Re: IAF Plans To Re-Arm Its Sukhois With Israeli Missiles

Unread postPosted: 02 Jun 2019, 20:15
by disconnectedradical
Russian electronics have always been suspect. In a PLAAF interview when they trialed Su-27SK the Chinese even complained how heavy N001 was compared to APG-63.

Also, K-77M for Su-57 is allegedly getting rid of grid fins for conventional fins.

Doesn't India already have ASRAAM to replace R-73?

Re: IAF Plans To Re-Arm Its Sukhois With Israeli Missiles

Unread postPosted: 03 Jun 2019, 00:30
by vm
disconnectedradical wrote:Russian electronics have always been suspect. In a PLAAF interview when they trialed Su-27SK the Chinese even complained how heavy N001 was compared to APG-63.

Also, K-77M for Su-57 is allegedly getting rid of grid fins for conventional fins.

Doesn't India already have ASRAAM to replace R-73?

ASRAAM has a 50 km range. Not really a threat to the amraams missiles with Pakistan having 105 km range.
No easy solutions here. Pakistan has 500 c5 amraams and by extension China must also be having their varients.
Issue is how effective the Russian varients are as a combo with the radars.
I don't see India Pakistan conflicts going on for more than 3 to 4 weeks, based on historical evidence. So India has to basically saturate the skies over Pakistan with numbers.
In previous wars iaf has lost most planes to anti aircraft fire. But this was before bvr missiles entered the area.

And for the guy talking about maintenance issues with sukhois with India, I believe Malaysia also wants to sell its Russian planes, mig29s, which were supposed to be the Russian f16s.
And why does India have no issues maintaining the m2000 and old jaguars.

Re: IAF Plans To Re-Arm Its Sukhois With Israeli Missiles

Unread postPosted: 03 Jun 2019, 02:24
by Corsair1963
mixelflick wrote:He's right: Small numbers of Rafale's aren't going to fix anything. Even large numbers won't cut it, as the cost is just sky high and the required numbers won't get them to where they want to be.

My guess is the Mig-35 will be their ultimate choice. It's Russian, which fits their current modus operandi. It'll be on the cheaper side of the available options, and combined with an AESA, improved weapons/more fuel and thrust vectoring engines, convey a small but meaningful edge over most of PAK's inventory. Not quite a light fighter but not quite heavy either, it lives in the spaces in between.

It will not however, be enough to counter China's vast array of Flanker derivatives, J-10B's and C's to say nothing of their new stealth bird (J-20). The only thing that'll allow India to go toe to toe with China is the F-35, and doubtful that gets sold. There's a longshot they buy the SU-57, but it's real long IMO. If you're going to play the stealth game, you need a (truly) stealth bird. And so far, the SU-57 is not - to say nothing of its other issues.

As for the rest of the field, each aircraft has at least one big strike against it..

The F-16V (or F-21 lol) will be much more expensive than the Mig-35 and in some respects (WVR dogfights) inferior. More Rafale's are too expensive. The Advanced SH for India too heavy/expensive and again US jets are a longshot. The Typhoon I don't even think is in the running, but they've never bought from the EF consortium and doubt they'll start now. The Gripen? Not sure if it has "Indian DNA" built into it LOL. It's way too small though, can't carry enough and completely outclassed by even earlier model F-16's.

Add to that the fact the Indian Navy is already operating the Mig-29K and it makes the Mig-35 the odds on favorite IMO. I wonder if the decision will be made in my lifetime LOL. I'm 50 btw... :)


I don't see India buying anymore Russian Fighters. Especially, the Mig-35 with all the problems. That India has had with the Mig-29.

Re: IAF Plans To Re-Arm Its Sukhois With Israeli Missiles

Unread postPosted: 03 Jun 2019, 02:28
by Corsair1963
Considering the types available. Sounds like the Super Hornet could have the inside track...

Re: IAF Plans To Re-Arm Its Sukhois With Israeli Missiles

Unread postPosted: 03 Jun 2019, 06:27
by knowan
milosh wrote:WTF have SSJ with Flanker? Nothing. In fact biggest problem with now is engine which is French, until investigation report we can't know is it some design problem or French part or something Russians did wrong.


The engines are made in Russia, and there's been widespread reliability problems with them, suggesting manufacturing defects or poor quality materials.
This is supporting evidence that Russia has a problem with manufacturing complex items to the standards expected by international markets.



milosh wrote:Only country in world which is crying about Su-30 is India. Countries with much smaller budget don't have problem maintain it but India have. China for example have its own engine refurbish facility so they do refurbishing. But this indian smart a$$ would like Russians to do for them refurbish, which not gonna happen.


The Indian complaints go far beyond just engines, but include radars, avionics and missiles. I'd like to know to know the logic for supposed 'cheap oil' for that.

And as vm said, Malaysia is having problems with their Su-30s too.

Re: IAF Plans To Re-Arm Its Sukhois With Israeli Missiles

Unread postPosted: 04 Jun 2019, 00:40
by Corsair1963
India's Sukhoi fleet faces problems despite Russian spare parts deal

By: Vivek Raghuvanshi  

Quote:


"The [Su-30MKI] fleet is prohibitively expensive equipment and faces problems due to high, premature failure rate of subsystems like Engines, Radars, Missiles, Avionics, etc.," said Vinod Kumar Narang, a retired Indian Air Force Air
Vice Marshal.

https://www.defensenews.com/air/2017/03 ... arts-deal/

Re: IAF Plans To Re-Arm Its Sukhois With Israeli Missiles

Unread postPosted: 04 Jun 2019, 01:27
by weasel1962
In more recent news....

https://www.deccanchronicle.com/nation/ ... -jets.html
Irkut Corporation, a UAC member, which showcases the multi-role Su-30 MKI combat jets at the biennial air show, has announced that hi-tech components manufactured by Indian companies are being shipped as spares for the Su-30MKI/SM family of fighter aircraft to air forces across the world.


Also, IAF Close To Buying 21 MiG-29 Fighter Jets For $900M.
https://www.defenseworld.net/news/24562 ... _For__900M

Weasel’s note: Reportedly, these are airframes that were produced but never assembled (pics available on BR forum). The Mig-29 contract is expected first following…

HAL Chief Confirms IAF Plans to Acquire 18 Su-30MKI, 21 MiG-29 Fighter Jets
https://www.defenseworld.net/news/24333 ... ghter_Jets

This after asking Russia to extend Su-30mki manufacturing license.
https://eurasiantimes.com/india-asks-ru ... agreement/