IAF Plans To Re-Arm Its Sukhois With Israeli Missiles

Military aircraft - Post cold war aircraft, including for example B-2, Gripen, F-18E/F Super Hornet, Rafale, and Typhoon.
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Shimud

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Unread post01 Jun 2019, 02:00

geforcerfx wrote:Maybe the IAF will be more impressed with the F-21 now :devil: especially if offered c7 or maybe even D RAAMs.


They have shot themselves in the feet while claiming a PAF F-16 down (even if its just for public consumption and propaganda). It doesn't make any difference if its an F-16 or F-21. Stands no chance.

mixelflick wrote:...If politics wasn't an issue, I could see them flying the F/A-18, Typhoon's or even the F-15 Super Eagle for their heavy air superiority platform. The latter two I think would be fantastic (from a strictly capability perspective, not logistical).


Slim chance Indians will go for a US system. By experience, they know well that in any future conflict, they will face as many embargoes and sanctions, as their adversaries.

They could probably afford a sanctions prone C-130 or P-8 but not an F-15 or an F-16/F-21.
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icemaverick

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Unread post01 Jun 2019, 12:37

They will be getting the Meteor with the Rafale buy. That will give the IAF a more potent BVR missile along with a more effective launching platform. I’m guessing the Israelis have pretty advanced air-to-air missiles in their inventory...certainly better than the Russian missiles.

They won’t get the Typhoon when they are already buying a similar Eurocannard.
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milosh

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Unread post01 Jun 2019, 18:09

knowan wrote:
mixelflick wrote:recurring problems with its engines/weapons


More than just engines and weapons: https://www.defensenews.com/air/2017/03 ... arts-deal/
"The [Su-30MKI] fleet is prohibitively expensive equipment and faces problems due to high, premature failure rate of subsystems like engines, radars, missiles, avionics, etc.," said Vinod Kumar Narang, a retired Indian Air Force air vice-marshal.


Narang noted that the major issue regarding maintenance is not the supply of spare parts but rather the rapidity of repairs of line-replaceable units and shop-repairable units. He asserted that the Russian suppliers make good money by supplying new spare parts at solid profit margins,but are always reluctant to quickly make repairs at 25 percent of the cost of new items.


Lol, it would be very funny when they start crying why French doesn't want to do cheap quick repairs instead selling them new part!

Btw, India is only country which operate Flankers and succeed to **** up nice number of engines.
They try to be smarter then engine maker, so they use different oil.

Do I need to say which oil was cheaper?

icemaverick wrote:They will be getting the Meteor with the Rafale buy. That will give the IAF a more potent BVR missile along with a more effective launching platform. I’m guessing the Israelis have pretty advanced air-to-air missiles in their inventory...certainly better than the Russian missiles.

They won’t get the Typhoon when they are already buying a similar Eurocannard.


Not gonna happen even if there isn't sanctions war between EU and Russia, giving Meteor to Flankers would be as shooting in leg, last thing eurocanards need is Flanker which can carry Meteor.

On other hand Bibi and Putin look like have bromance and it look like Israel is favorite location for russian oligarhs which are leaving west, so integration of Derby doesn't look problematic at all.
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geforcerfx

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Unread post02 Jun 2019, 00:00

Shimud wrote:

Slim chance Indians will go for a US system. By experience, they know well that in any future conflict, they will face as many embargoes and sanctions, as their adversaries.

They could probably afford a sanctions prone C-130 or P-8 but not an F-15 or an F-16/F-21.


There home built aircraft is using a US engine and some avionics with us parts doesn't seem to trouble them too but much. The F-21 or Rhino wouldn't be the only aircraft in inventory so sanctions would only hamper 20-30% of the fleet and if they have sufficient parts stored away ( with the made in India requirement I think that would be easier) they could carry on a decent length engagement with sanctions overhead. If the Lockheed got approval for moving all F-16 production to India sanction would prob be limited and the USA would try to mediate vs sanction the parties involved.

Long term the USA is looking at India as a potential key allie against China.
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vm

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Unread post02 Jun 2019, 03:41

Let's not miss 2 important points -
1. ROE - What instructions did the Indians have regarding targeting Pakistani planes, which were deep inside Pakistani airspace? Obviously the Pakistanis had permission to fire at IAF planes in Indian airspace. So if your plane gets painted and you detect missiles on their way, what does a typical pilot do ? He evades.
So let's not just jump to a conclusion that the mki failed based on unclear roe.
This was not open warfare, where you are ordered to shoot down the enemy in every engagement.
2. The positives for the mki are -
It detected that it was a target of incoming missiles. The biggest unknown about Russian planes is their sensors capability. Like the mig21 was likely surprised and had no clue about the incoming missile.
And 2nd positive is that the 5 missiles were successfully evaded. So the mki has the legs to evade sophisticated American missiles which PAF has in the thousands.

The real picture will come after the next terror attack in India. I believe all gloves will be off this time and the conflict will be more prolonged.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post02 Jun 2019, 04:02

With the Indian Defense Budget in decline. Can she afford to waste anymore time on the LCA/AMCA/MMRCA??? :?
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icemaverick

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Unread post02 Jun 2019, 04:40

milosh wrote:
knowan wrote:
mixelflick wrote:recurring problems with its engines/weapons


More than just engines and weapons: https://www.defensenews.com/air/2017/03 ... arts-deal/
"The [Su-30MKI] fleet is prohibitively expensive equipment and faces problems due to high, premature failure rate of subsystems like engines, radars, missiles, avionics, etc.," said Vinod Kumar Narang, a retired Indian Air Force air vice-marshal.


Narang noted that the major issue regarding maintenance is not the supply of spare parts but rather the rapidity of repairs of line-replaceable units and shop-repairable units. He asserted that the Russian suppliers make good money by supplying new spare parts at solid profit margins,but are always reluctant to quickly make repairs at 25 percent of the cost of new items.


Lol, it would be very funny when they start crying why French doesn't want to do cheap quick repairs instead selling them new part!

Btw, India is only country which operate Flankers and succeed to **** up nice number of engines.
They try to be smarter then engine maker, so they use different oil.

Do I need to say which oil was cheaper?

icemaverick wrote:They will be getting the Meteor with the Rafale buy. That will give the IAF a more potent BVR missile along with a more effective launching platform. I’m guessing the Israelis have pretty advanced air-to-air missiles in their inventory...certainly better than the Russian missiles.

They won’t get the Typhoon when they are already buying a similar Eurocannard.


Not gonna happen even if there isn't sanctions war between EU and Russia, giving Meteor to Flankers would be as shooting in leg, last thing eurocanards need is Flanker which can carry Meteor.

On other hand Bibi and Putin look like have bromance and it look like Israel is favorite location for russian oligarhs which are leaving west, so integration of Derby doesn't look problematic at all.


In case it wasn’t clear, the Meteor is for the Rafale, not Su-30MKI.

As for Flanker reliability, why is it that the Indians have consistently praised the reliability of their Mirages? The Iraqis had an easier time maintaining their French jets compared to their Russian ones. Russian equipment is not known for its reliability. This is why every one who can tries to get their hands on Western birds if they can afford it.
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knowan

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Unread post02 Jun 2019, 04:51

milosh wrote:Lol, it would be very funny when they start crying why French doesn't want to do cheap quick repairs instead selling them new part!

Btw, India is only country which operate Flankers and succeed to **** up nice number of engines.
They try to be smarter then engine maker, so they use different oil.

Do I need to say which oil was cheaper?


I doubt the problem is supposed Indian incompetence; the Sukhoi Superjets are having near identical problems with numerous operators (including Russian), which is a strong indication the problem is the Russian products.


icemaverick wrote:As for Flanker reliability, why is it that the Indians have consistently praised the reliability of their Mirages? The Iraqis had an easier time maintaining their French jets compared to their Russian ones. Russian equipment is not known for its reliability. This is why every one who can tries to get their hands on Western birds if they can afford it.


Exactly. The problem isn't the users, but the planes.
Last edited by knowan on 02 Jun 2019, 05:06, edited 5 times in total.
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icemaverick

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Unread post02 Jun 2019, 04:51

Corsair1963 wrote:With the Indian Defense Budget in decline. Can she afford to waste anymore time on the LCA/AMCA/MMRCA??? :?


Where did you get that information? India’s defense budget seems to be steadily increasing.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nextbi ... -2020.html
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Unread post02 Jun 2019, 05:56

icemaverick wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:With the Indian Defense Budget in decline. Can she afford to waste anymore time on the LCA/AMCA/MMRCA??? :?


Where did you get that information? India’s defense budget seems to be steadily increasing.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nextbi ... -2020.html


DEFENSE NEWS

India gets a new defense minister
By: Vivek Raghuvanshi  
May 31, 2019


NEW DELHI — A senior politician of the right-wing Bharatiya Janata Party has been appointed the new defense minister of India.


It seems that Rajnath Singh, who previously severed as home minister and has a reputation as a taskmaster, has quite the workload ahead of him if he’s to speed up defense procurement and modernization.


Bureaucrats in the Ministry of Defence argue that the overall pace of defense purchases and contracts will slow over the next two years because of fiscal troubles.


“Singh will have very little money for new defense purchases because very little money is left for new defense purchase[s]," an MoD official said.


“The new government will have to choose priorities between Make in India defense programs or global defence purchases,” he noted, adding that no sweeping reforms are expected for at least the next two years.



Another MoD official expressed confidence that Singh will enforce anti-corruption regulations.


The Indian Army is currently committed to $4.31 billion in liabilities, with the Air Force committed to $7.40 billion and the Navy to $3.98 billion.


Under its policy aimed at bolstering the domestic industry, the government “will find it very tough to roll out big-ticket Make in India defense projects, including multirole fighters, submarines and helicopters,” according to defense analyst and retired Indian Army Maj. Gen. Mahindra Singh.


https://www.defensenews.com/global/asia ... Brkt1EOrGs
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Corsair1963

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Unread post02 Jun 2019, 06:00

Why India’s new defence budget falls short
Rajeswari Pillai Rajagopalan


QUOTE:

Most of the 6.3 percent hike in the defence budget actually goes to meet the salary and pension requirements, thus making the allocation for modernization a lot smaller than even the previous year.


https://www.orfonline.org/research/why- ... ort-48077/
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vm

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Unread post02 Jun 2019, 09:30

Corsair1963 wrote:Why India’s new defence budget falls short
Rajeswari Pillai Rajagopalan


QUOTE:

Most of the 6.3 percent hike in the defence budget actually goes to meet the salary and pension requirements, thus making the allocation for modernization a lot smaller than even the previous year.


https://www.orfonline.org/research/why- ... ort-48077/

Budget is large enough, even without yearly increases.
Issue is that we have 40 odd mirages, bought in the 1980s, after the paks were given f16s (around 85 now) by the Americans. These mirages were effective during the kargil war and recent conflict.
Then we have 250 odd su mki, which have their own disadvantages. Now these are unproven planes against western planes.
Around 60 odd mig29s.
And jaguars, mig21, mig27, etc.
And we get the 36 rafaels soon.

Issue is not Pakistan, but China, with its unlimited budgeted.

India should concentrate on the rafaels. No use having 100s of migs and sukhois, if they have low serviceability and unsure effectiveness.
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Unread post02 Jun 2019, 09:43

vm wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:Why India’s new defence budget falls short
Rajeswari Pillai Rajagopalan


QUOTE:

Most of the 6.3 percent hike in the defence budget actually goes to meet the salary and pension requirements, thus making the allocation for modernization a lot smaller than even the previous year.


https://www.orfonline.org/research/why- ... ort-48077/

Budget is large enough, even without yearly increases.
Issue is that we have 40 odd mirages, bought in the 1980s, after the paks were given f16s (around 85 now) by the Americans. These mirages were effective during the kargil war and recent conflict.
Then we have 250 odd su mki, which have their own disadvantages. Now these are unproven planes against western planes.
Around 60 odd mig29s.
And jaguars, mig21, mig27, etc.
And we get the 36 rafaels soon.

Issue is not Pakistan, but China, with its unlimited budgeted.

India should concentrate on the rafaels. No use having 100s of migs and sukhois, if they have low serviceability and unsure effectiveness.


India can't rule out two front conflict with both China and Pakistan. Plus, don't see how the Rafale is going to be much help. Especially, post 2030 when China and possibly Pakistan have a fair number of Stealth Fighters. (J-20's and J-31's) :shock:
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Unread post02 Jun 2019, 14:53

He's right: Small numbers of Rafale's aren't going to fix anything. Even large numbers won't cut it, as the cost is just sky high and the required numbers won't get them to where they want to be.

My guess is the Mig-35 will be their ultimate choice. It's Russian, which fits their current modus operandi. It'll be on the cheaper side of the available options, and combined with an AESA, improved weapons/more fuel and thrust vectoring engines, convey a small but meaningful edge over most of PAK's inventory. Not quite a light fighter but not quite heavy either, it lives in the spaces in between.

It will not however, be enough to counter China's vast array of Flanker derivatives, J-10B's and C's to say nothing of their new stealth bird (J-20). The only thing that'll allow India to go toe to toe with China is the F-35, and doubtful that gets sold. There's a longshot they buy the SU-57, but it's real long IMO. If you're going to play the stealth game, you need a (truly) stealth bird. And so far, the SU-57 is not - to say nothing of its other issues.

As for the rest of the field, each aircraft has at least one big strike against it..

The F-16V (or F-21 lol) will be much more expensive than the Mig-35 and in some respects (WVR dogfights) inferior. More Rafale's are too expensive. The Advanced SH for India too heavy/expensive and again US jets are a longshot. The Typhoon I don't even think is in the running, but they've never bought from the EF consortium and doubt they'll start now. The Gripen? Not sure if it has "Indian DNA" built into it LOL. It's way too small though, can't carry enough and completely outclassed by even earlier model F-16's.

Add to that the fact the Indian Navy is already operating the Mig-29K and it makes the Mig-35 the odds on favorite IMO. I wonder if the decision will be made in my lifetime LOL. I'm 50 btw... :)
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Unread post02 Jun 2019, 16:01

mixelflick wrote:My guess is the Mig-35 will be their ultimate choice. It's Russian, which fits their current modus operandi. It'll be on the cheaper side of the available options, and combined with an AESA, improved weapons/more fuel and thrust vectoring engines, convey a small but meaningful edge over most of PAK's inventory. Not quite a light fighter but not quite heavy either, it lives in the spaces in between.


MiG-35 production version doesn't have AESA or thrust vectoring; those features were only on earlier prototypes, but removed for later versions.
It's really just a rebadged MiG-29K.

And India hasn't exactly had a great experience with their MiG-29Ks either; lots of reliability issues and something like 62% of the engines were withdrawn due to 'design defects'.
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