IAF Plans To Re-Arm Its Sukhois With Israeli Missiles

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Corsair1963

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Unread post29 May 2019, 03:12

NEW DELHI --- In two years from now, the Indian Air Force's frontline Sukhoi-30 fighters may be re-armed with Israeli Derby air-to-air missiles after the jet's Russian-made R-77 missiles were found wanting in air combat operations over the Line of Control on February 27 this year.

Sources in the Indian Air Force told NDTV, "We already have the missile as part of the SPYDER (Surface-to-Air Missile) system. Integration (with the IAF's Su-30s) is the next step.''

Retaliating to the IAF strike on the Jaish-e-Mohammed training facility in Balakot on February 26, the Pakistan Air Force aggressively positioned a large formation of 24 fighters near the Line of Control (LoC). A handful of these jets managed to cross the LoC to fire precision-guided glide bombs towards Indian military positions in the Rajouri sector.

Eight Indian Air Force fighters, including two Sukhoi-30 MKI jets, were vectored to intercept the Pakistani formation when they detected the launch of several US-made AIM-120 C5 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAM) in their direction.

''The PAF surprised the IAF by launching air-to-air missiles from inside Pakistan-occupied Kashmir," says Sameer Joshi, an IAF veteran who flew Mirage 2000 fighters during the Kargil conflict. ''The AMRAAM effectively outranged the IAF air-to-air missiles which did not get a command to launch," he said.

Among the Indian Air Force's fighters which were targeted were two Sukhoi-30s which managed to evade the AMRAAMs which were fired at close to their maximum range of 100 kilometres. Fully defensive and desperate to escape the incoming AMRAAMs, the IAF Sukhoi-30s escaped being shot down but were unable to retaliate [against] the F-16s because they were out of position and their own missiles, the Russian R-77s, did not have the range to realistically engage the Pakistani fighters.

IAF sources told NDTV that the Russian missiles do not match its advertised range and cannot engage targets which are more than 80 kilometres away............

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/outgunn ... es-2044172
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disconnectedradical

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Unread post29 May 2019, 03:46

Russian missiles aren't all they hyped to be after all. IAF almost demanded refund on R-77 because of poor reliability.
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Unread post29 May 2019, 04:57

disconnectedradical wrote:Russian missiles aren't all they hyped to be after all. IAF almost demanded refund on R-77 because of poor reliability.



Problem is the R-77 is the Russian equivalent to the AIM-120. (Amraam) :wink:
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Unread post29 May 2019, 06:22

wonder if they have the AE or SD variant, either one should be similar range, the M is the first one to advertise decent range comparable to the modern AMRAAMs.
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Unread post29 May 2019, 09:12

geforcerfx wrote:wonder if they have the AE or SD variant, either one should be similar range, the M is the first one to advertise decent range comparable to the modern AMRAAMs.


Probably AE, India and China were some of the first RVV-AE customers, RVV-SD didn't come out until recently.
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Unread post29 May 2019, 10:23

Doesn't the C5 already have the capability to be lofted (datalink, improved INS, etc) unlike early R-77 (or early model AMRAAM)?
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Unread post30 May 2019, 04:54

What a surprise, Russian military equipment not performing as advertised!


juretrn wrote:Doesn't the C5 already have the capability to be lofted (datalink, improved INS, etc) unlike early R-77 (or early model AMRAAM)?


AIM-7M had loft capability, so early AIM-120s probably did. I think later AIM-120s increased the loft angle.
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Unread post30 May 2019, 15:30

knowan wrote:What a surprise, Russian military equipment not performing as advertised!


juretrn wrote:Doesn't the C5 already have the capability to be lofted (datalink, improved INS, etc) unlike early R-77 (or early model AMRAAM)?


AIM-7M had loft capability, so early AIM-120s probably did. I think later AIM-120s increased the loft angle.



Wasn't the R-77 supposed to address the shortcomings of their previous BVR missile, the R-27? This makes two instances of Russian BVR weapons performing miserably. Sending the IAF's biggest, baddest fighter running for its life had to be humiliating indeed. Between the engines and BVR missiles, this should be a powerful lesson for the Indians.

Methinks the Mig-35 won't have much of a chance in their upcoming fighter tender...
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knowan

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Unread post30 May 2019, 16:47

mixelflick wrote:Wasn't the R-77 supposed to address the shortcomings of their previous BVR missile, the R-27? This makes two instances of Russian BVR weapons performing miserably. Sending the IAF's biggest, baddest fighter running for its life had to be humiliating indeed. Between the engines and BVR missiles, this should be a powerful lesson for the Indians.

Methinks the Mig-35 won't have much of a chance in their upcoming fighter tender...


Apparently one of the reasons the RuAF was so slow to adopt the R-77 is how miserable its kinematics are even compared to the R-27, which had around half the kinematic range of AIM-120A/B and AIM-7M.
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Unread post30 May 2019, 17:09

Maybe the IAF will be more impressed with the F-21 now :devil: especially if offered c7 or maybe even D RAAMs.
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Unread post30 May 2019, 18:29

knowan wrote:
Apparently one of the reasons the RuAF was so slow to adopt the R-77 is how miserable its kinematics are even compared to the R-27, which had around half the kinematic range of AIM-120A/B and AIM-7M.

Those grid fins that they wanted for agility end up creating tons of drag. The R-27ET is a more credible threat as far as I'm concerned.
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Unread post30 May 2019, 21:16

sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:
knowan wrote:
Apparently one of the reasons the RuAF was so slow to adopt the R-77 is how miserable its kinematics are even compared to the R-27, which had around half the kinematic range of AIM-120A/B and AIM-7M.

Those grid fins that they wanted for agility end up creating tons of drag. The R-27ET is a more credible threat as far as I'm concerned.


I assume we talk only about the kinematically advantage? The IR Seeker should be outdated by far today.
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Unread post30 May 2019, 21:41

swiss wrote:I assume we talk only about the kinematically advantage? The IR Seeker should be outdated by far today.

Oh yes, I am referring to R-27 vs R-77 only here.
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Unread post31 May 2019, 13:01

The SU-30MKI has to really frost the Indians.

On the one hand, airframe has a great potential. Extremely agile for any size, it also has a fine radar and E/W systems. But recurring problems with its engines/weapons rendered it on the defensive in the latest conflict, and that was against early model F-16's and AMRAAM's.

It makes you wonder how potent a weapons system it could be with say GE F-110 engines, AIM-120C/D AMRAAM's and a few other bells and whistles (like a good AESA radar). They bought in big with it too, and are even thinking of buying more.

Unless they get the engine/radar/weapons ironed out though, I think its a long shot. If politics wasn't an issue, I could see them flying the F/A-18, Typhoon's or even the F-15 Super Eagle for their heavy air superiority platform. The latter two I think would be fantastic (from a strictly capability perspective, not logistical).
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Unread post01 Jun 2019, 01:59

mixelflick wrote:recurring problems with its engines/weapons


More than just engines and weapons: https://www.defensenews.com/air/2017/03 ... arts-deal/
"The [Su-30MKI] fleet is prohibitively expensive equipment and faces problems due to high, premature failure rate of subsystems like engines, radars, missiles, avionics, etc.," said Vinod Kumar Narang, a retired Indian Air Force air vice-marshal.
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