Spain joins France, Germany on new combat fighter

Unread postPosted: 12 Feb 2019, 02:58
by Corsair1963
Spain will join a Franco-German project to build a new fighter plane to replace the Eurofighter and Rafale, the defence ministry said Monday.

Defence Minister Margarita Robles will sign a letter of intent with her French and German counterparts on Thursday on the margins of a NATO meeting in Brussels, a spokesperson said.

The project launched in July 2017 is known as the Future Combat Air System (FCAS), which in addition to a new combat aircraft also plans to include drones and cruise missiles.

The new fighter jet will replace the Eurofighter which is assembled in Germany, Britain, Spain and Italy, and the French Rafale around 2040.

It will compete with the US F-35 or its successor.

A first contract worth 65 million euros was awarded to Airbus and Dassault Aviation in February to develop the design of the combat system.

Spain, where Airbus's military transport planes are assembled, had sent a letter in December to Paris and Berlin asking to be associated with the project.

The FCAS has a rival -- Britain's Tempest project which has been awarded to BAE Systems, and which Italy and the Netherlands have also joined.

In a December statement, Spain's defence ministry said it was "convinced that the two programmes would end up merging, given the huge investment needed in their development."


https://www.france24.com/en/20190211-sp ... DVzj7USIsw

Re: Spain joins France, Germany on new combat fighter

Unread postPosted: 12 Feb 2019, 03:01
by Corsair1963
This will increase the pressure on the UK to find more partners for it's Tempest Fighter Project. With recent reports suggesting that India was offered a place in the program???

Re: Spain joins France, Germany on new combat fighter

Unread postPosted: 12 Feb 2019, 03:20
by marsavian
Sweden is very interested in Tempest.

Re: Spain joins France, Germany on new combat fighter

Unread postPosted: 12 Feb 2019, 03:35
by madrat
Turkey will try to join in order sow division.

Re: Spain joins France, Germany on new combat fighter

Unread postPosted: 12 Feb 2019, 03:40
by Corsair1963
marsavian wrote:Sweden is very interested in Tempest.


Yes, I've heard that SAAB will join the program. Yet, the UK will need a number of partners or a couple large ones?

Re: Spain joins France, Germany on new combat fighter

Unread postPosted: 12 Feb 2019, 03:55
by marsavian
It's what they bring in terms of expertise rather than quantity. The UK will take care of the engines and possibly airframe, the Italians sensors/weapons and the Swedes the electronics or variations like that. Basically each country brings what they are good at and they all share the cost and production. Looks to me Tempest and NGF/SCAF will have 3-4 big partners each which will be enough to make them viable and I also heard Japan was taking an interest in Tempest too. The bar is low here, build something modern and above all indigenous with at least F-117 level stealth and you are good to go against J-20/Su-57.

Re: Spain joins France, Germany on new combat fighter

Unread postPosted: 12 Feb 2019, 04:25
by Corsair1963
marsavian wrote:It's what they bring in terms of expertise rather than quantity. The UK will take care of the engines and possibly airframe, the Italians sensors/weapons and the Swedes the electronics or variations like that. Basically each country brings what they are good at and they all share the cost and production. Looks to me Tempest and NGF/SCAF will have 3-4 big partners each which will be enough to make them viable and I also heard Japan was taking an interest in Tempest too. The bar is low here, build something modern and above all indigenous with at least F-117 level stealth and you are good to go against J-20/Su-57.



Don't forget the two US 6th Generation Fighter Programs. They to will be looking for partners. With my guess with Australia, Japan, and South Korea being good options. I wouldn't even rule out India. As it will need a partner too. If, it ever hopes to have a 6th Generation Fighter.

Re: Spain joins France, Germany on new combat fighter

Unread postPosted: 12 Feb 2019, 11:55
by juretrn
This is great news for European defence industry. Hopefully we get a Eurofighter mk2 in time.

Re: Spain joins France, Germany on new combat fighter

Unread postPosted: 12 Feb 2019, 14:16
by mixelflick
I just don't see this happening...

Yes, it's happened in years past: Tornado, Eurofighter. But the costs involved in achieving something comparable to the F-35 are going to be ginormous. And even then, what have you succeeded in doing? Building a European F-35?

They're going to be flying the F-35 already, and it's doubtful British engine tech is going to develop motors comparable to an ADVENT or ACE or whatever comes after the F-135 (out of America). Now if you're planning on building something more capable than an F-35, OK.

But this just means it'll be even more expensive. Stealth is even now barely affordable, even for the US. For the Europeans, true all aspect stealth is gong to prove to be the straw that broke the camel's back.

I just can't see them re-inventing the F-35 wheel economically, especially since LM isn't likely to give up its secrets. And I'm talking about the biggest secret: How to pump out super stealthy, 5th gen jets with a 4th generation price tag..

Re: Spain joins France, Germany on new combat fighter

Unread postPosted: 12 Feb 2019, 14:33
by white_lightning35
I can't understand why some here are still so stupid or willfully ignorant that they don't realize this new fighter doesn't have to be as capable as the next US 6th-gen or way more capable than the f-35. Saying something like "it's doubtful their engine tech is good enough" or "stealth will be the straw that broke the camels back" is just ignorant of the situation at hand. These countries involved want to preserve their industrial base and know-how, and this is the way. Just because it is not the greatest thing out there doesn't mean it's not the right option.

Re: Spain joins France, Germany on new combat fighter

Unread postPosted: 12 Feb 2019, 16:45
by vilters
So want us taxpayers to pay MORE to get LESS?
Just to keep some political clowns in the saddle?

NH 90 = fiasco for each and every client so far
Tiger attack heli = Fiasco => is the ban to fly lifted yet?
Rafale = Fiasco, can not carry half the weapons available
Tiffy = A good Formula1 car, and that's about it.
Tornado = Holy cow, how stupid can one get
AM 400 = if only we had bought C-130
Add another one The BusAir 380 => Most of latest and or follow-on buy's cancelled.

And it is the same for many "European stars".

Buy Mercedes, BMW, Land Rover, just to name a few.
Did you buy a car?
No did not.
You bought an overly expensive maintenance contract, and you get the car under cost.
They'll get you when you come in for service.

Re: Spain joins France, Germany on new combat fighter

Unread postPosted: 13 Feb 2019, 00:10
by f4u7_corsair
mixelflick wrote:But the costs involved in achieving something comparable to the F-35 are going to be ginormous.

The F-35 being a great technological achievement does not mean it is a benchmark when it comes to program management - and fortunately so.

I remind that a major source of headache and subsequent costs overrun of the JSF program is the inclusion of the B variant while keeping the overall design relatively streamlined. No such thing on FCAS.

vilters wrote:NH 90 = fiasco for each and every client so far

A hectic ride, but the machine is promising. Maintenance and availability-wise, things are tough, but it's getting better. Just like the JSF.
Tiger attack heli = Fiasco => is the ban to fly lifted yet?

No ban outisde of the Bundeswehr because of bad subcontractor rotor maintenance procedures.
Rafale = Fiasco, can not carry half the weapons available

You're entitled to your own biased opinion, but please expand.
Tiffy = A good Formula1 car, and that's about it.

An excellent BVR Formula 1. It wasn't designed for other missions, although it tries to complete the job.
Tornado = Holy cow, how stupid can one get

Not a stellar achievement, but it did the job.
AM 400 = if only we had bought C-130

A very rough start indeed. Things are getting much better though. Just like the JSF.
And, with Hercules, well, you wouldn't carry half the payload over half the range. But I guess that's enough for the Belgian Air Force (sorry, Belgian Air Component :D ) requirements.
Add another one The BusAir 380 => Most of latest and or follow-on buy's cancelled.

Yes, the A380 programme is a commercial failure.
Oh, but did you hear about the complete success of any other aircraft of the Airbus commercial range?
Why do you even talk about liners either way?

Also, notice that the programmes featuring the most difficulties (NH, Atlas) are led by Airbus, while the manned-aircraft component of FCAS is very highly likely to be led by Dassault which has a stellar record (you may think whatever you want, that's a fact).

Re: Spain joins France, Germany on new combat fighter

Unread postPosted: 13 Feb 2019, 01:42
by Corsair1963
mixelflick wrote:I just don't see this happening...

Yes, it's happened in years past: Tornado, Eurofighter. But the costs involved in achieving something comparable to the F-35 are going to be ginormous. And even then, what have you succeeded in doing? Building a European F-35?

They're going to be flying the F-35 already, and it's doubtful British engine tech is going to develop motors comparable to an ADVENT or ACE or whatever comes after the F-135 (out of America). Now if you're planning on building something more capable than an F-35, OK.

But this just means it'll be even more expensive. Stealth is even now barely affordable, even for the US. For the Europeans, true all aspect stealth is gong to prove to be the straw that broke the camel's back.

I just can't see them re-inventing the F-35 wheel economically, especially since LM isn't likely to give up its secrets. And I'm talking about the biggest secret: How to pump out super stealthy, 5th gen jets with a 4th generation price tag..


So, we have at "least" four major 6th Generation Fighter Programs on the horizon. Two from Europe (Tempest & NGF) and two from US (PCA & NGAD). Honestly, hard to see a market for that many???

Re: Spain joins France, Germany on new combat fighter

Unread postPosted: 13 Feb 2019, 01:56
by marsavian
The Europeans will sell to themselves, the Middle East and other countries not on good military terms with the US.

Re: Spain joins France, Germany on new combat fighter

Unread postPosted: 13 Feb 2019, 02:03
by Corsair1963
marsavian wrote:The Europeans will sell to themselves, the Middle East and other countries not on good military terms with the US.


Europe has struggled to sell the Rafale and Typhoon against American Competition. In addition in the coming decades there will be more countries entering the market place. (Turkey, South Korea, India, etc.)

Re: Spain joins France, Germany on new combat fighter

Unread postPosted: 13 Feb 2019, 02:08
by f4u7_corsair
Considering HAL isn't even capable of properly upgrading aircraft with pre-established instructions (see Dassault pulling their hair when they see HAL's work on Mirage 2000Is), I doubt it regarding India. And I have a lot of reserves for Turkey as well. They'll get either get in the Tempest boat or they won't design anything relevant to compete with serious Chinese, European and American manufacturers.

Re: Spain joins France, Germany on new combat fighter

Unread postPosted: 13 Feb 2019, 02:12
by element1loop
vilters wrote:NH 90 = fiasco for each and every client so far
Tiger attack heli = Fiasco => is the ban to fly lifted yet?
Tornado = Holy cow, how stupid can one get


There are some complaints with NH90 but the main issue with NH90 was the super-expensive and ultra-slow mess regarding the ASW variant (for which it was not originally designed, btw). Which seems to finally be getting its' shish together at this time. Wow ... get some Romeos next time guys.

The Tiger was and is a great capability in a battle. The ADF was dissatisfied with it in service because it was intended to be predominantly a night time RECON capability for Army, but its IR sensor was incapable of providing the level of imagery and video desired for the RECON role and was never upgraded. Thus it never became a fully operational capability within the ADF, and is going away as a 'failure' to perform. But if you wanted a battlefield attack helicopter capability it has the punch, but AH-64 would have done it allm and we'll probably end up getting a newer version of them instead (like we damned well should have in the first place). And RECON can now be done with a drone.

Tornado was a terrific low-level attack jet, IMHO. BVR Interceptor? Now that's an unconvincing stretch for me. But it made a great contribution to European fire-power and deterrence, and survived well once used with sensible tactics and weapons. I sure would not want to be on the receiving end of those. It impressed me more than Typhoon has, because it could really hurt the opposition fast, and Typhoon was much less convincing, until quite recently.

Re: Spain joins France, Germany on new combat fighter

Unread postPosted: 13 Feb 2019, 02:17
by marsavian
Corsair1963 wrote:
marsavian wrote:The Europeans will sell to themselves, the Middle East and other countries not on good military terms with the US.


Europe has struggled to sell the Rafale and Typhoon against American Competition. In addition in the coming decades there will be more countries entering the market place. (Turkey, South Korea, India, etc.)


Europeans don't need to sell in thousands just hundreds to be viable, how long have Gripen, Rafale and Typhoon been in continuous slow production ? I'm pretty sure too that Tempest and NGF will be a cut above the other non-US competition. Remember because of Israel the F-35 isn't being sold to other ME countries. How many other countries around the World with old kit are not going to be sold F-35 ?

Re: Spain joins France, Germany on new combat fighter

Unread postPosted: 13 Feb 2019, 02:20
by popcorn
element1loop wrote:Tornado was a terrific low-level attack jet, IMHO. BVR Interceptor? Now that's an unconvincing stretch for me.

IIRC Tornados were routinely being swatted down in A2A until they were datalinked to AWACS and were actually beating Eagles BVR.

Re: Spain joins France, Germany on new combat fighter

Unread postPosted: 13 Feb 2019, 02:24
by f4u7_corsair
popcorn wrote:
element1loop wrote:Tornado was a terrific low-level attack jet, IMHO. BVR Interceptor? Now that's an unconvincing stretch for me.

IIRC Tornados were routinely being swatted down in A2A until they were datalinked to AWACS and were actually beating Eagles BVR.

As long as you didn't need to ask too much from the RB.199s, the F.3 was an OK A2A platform indeed, especially w/ Skyflash, as I don't think they were ever wired for AMRAAM midcourse guidance.

Re: Spain joins France, Germany on new combat fighter

Unread postPosted: 13 Feb 2019, 02:29
by element1loop
popcorn wrote:
element1loop wrote:Tornado was a terrific low-level attack jet, IMHO. BVR Interceptor? Now that's an unconvincing stretch for me.

IIRC Tornados were routinely being swatted down in A2A until they were datalinked to AWACS and were actually beating Eagles BVR.


It was more the interceptor part that I thought was non-ideal.

Re: Spain joins France, Germany on new combat fighter

Unread postPosted: 13 Feb 2019, 02:39
by element1loop
marsavian wrote:Remember because of Israel the F-35 isn't being sold to other ME countries. How many other countries around the World with old kit are not going to be sold F-35 ?


Same occured with SH, only RAAF got it until USN was sure F-35C was going to succeed, then offered to others. Malaysia for instance wanted SH when RAAF got them (despite having mighty invincible MKIs and MiG29s ... so why on earth would they evah want some ultra-crappy "dog" of a "superbug"?! ... Carlo? ... Peter? ... /crickets). It's likely F-35 will not be sold to anyone but the inner circle of NATO and Asian allies until there's real competition and actual 5th-gen proliferation, and something better about to enter service.

Re: Spain joins France, Germany on new combat fighter

Unread postPosted: 13 Feb 2019, 03:16
by weasel1962
Last generation strike preference was low level ingress to avoid radar detection. The ADVs were designed for low level interception. If I remember, the low level performance was better than even the eagles.

Re: Spain joins France, Germany on new combat fighter

Unread postPosted: 13 Feb 2019, 03:54
by element1loop
weasel1962 wrote:Last generation strike preference was low level ingress to avoid radar detection. The ADVs were designed for low level interception. If I remember, the low level performance was better than even the eagles.


Yes, perhaps it's more efficient than other aircraft down low, but down low is anything but an efficient place to be, or a good place for sensors, comms or missile range or use, or for longer flight range and better high speed cruise.

Re: Spain joins France, Germany on new combat fighter

Unread postPosted: 13 Feb 2019, 04:24
by firebase99
weasel1962 wrote:Last generation strike preference was low level ingress to avoid radar detection. The ADVs were designed for low level interception. If I remember, the low level performance was better than even the eagles.


Wait, what? I thought the IDS were the Mud Movers, ADV were the Air Defence Variant of InterDiction Strike, no?

Re: Spain joins France, Germany on new combat fighter

Unread postPosted: 13 Feb 2019, 04:33
by f4u7_corsair
He said that ADV was tasked to intercept low-level mud movers.

But I don't think it was its primary design mission. The ADV, and its Foxhunter radar, was primarily design to detect and intercept long range bomber raids and was required to be LD/SD capable.

Re: Spain joins France, Germany on new combat fighter

Unread postPosted: 13 Feb 2019, 04:36
by Corsair1963
element1loop wrote:
Same occured with SH, only RAAF got it until USN was sure F-35C was going to succeed, then offered to others. Malaysia for instance wanted SH when RAAF got them (despite having mighty invincible MKIs and MiG29s ... so why on earth would they evah want some ultra-crappy "dog" of a "superbug"?! ... Carlo? ... Peter? ... /crickets). It's likely F-35 will not be sold to anyone but the inner circle of NATO and Asian allies until there's real competition and actual 5th-gen proliferation, and something better about to enter service.



Best to spread out the F-35 orders. As we need the production line rolling for many years to come.... :wink:

Re: Spain joins France, Germany on new combat fighter

Unread postPosted: 13 Feb 2019, 05:03
by weasel1962
f4u7_corsair wrote:He said that ADV was tasked to intercept low-level mud movers.

But I don't think it was its primary design mission. The ADV, and its Foxhunter radar, was primarily design to detect and intercept long range bomber raids and was required to be LD/SD capable.


Google AI-24 look down shoot down. Don't need LDSD for long range bombers. Agree handling long range bombers like backfire was important but just as critical was the then "new" birds like the fencers.

Re: Spain joins France, Germany on new combat fighter

Unread postPosted: 13 Feb 2019, 05:23
by f4u7_corsair
Indeed, but my point was why put an emphasis on LDSD for an interceptor that was supposed to operate at low level as you implied. But you got a good point indeed!

Re: Spain joins France, Germany on new combat fighter

Unread postPosted: 13 Feb 2019, 06:11
by weasel1962
f4u7_corsair wrote:Indeed, but my point was why put an emphasis on LDSD for an interceptor that was supposed to operate at low level as you implied. But you got a good point indeed!


Good points raised yourself. The missiles in the 80s are not the same all aspect missiles like today. May not tolerate a large altitude delta for a firing solution.

P.s. just read that skyflash was one of the missiles that actually had a large altitude delta (better than Sparrow). So there...Nevertheless, still think low level pursuit was an intentional design. Seeker performance would have improved the shorter the range to target.

Re: Spain joins France, Germany on new combat fighter

Unread postPosted: 07 Jun 2019, 20:03
by loke
COLOGNE, Germany — A lingering dispute between German lawmakers and Airbus could nix immediate plans to move forward with a future Franco-German-Spanish fighter aircraft, Defense News has learned.
The kerfuffle goes back to a February request for information by members of the Bundestag’s Budget Committee. Citing the government’s role as a major shareholder in the company, lawmakers called on the administration to provide in-depth information about Airbus locations, programs and management equities throughout Europe.
Airbus is one of two prime contractors for the Future Combat Air System, an ambitious project to field a sixth-generation fighter aircraft by 2040. The envisioned weapon also includes new sensors, drones and a complex data infrastructure, making it Europe’s preeminent industrial project for decades to come.
Lawmakers in Berlin are worried that German defense-industry interests, presumably channeled through Airbus, could get the short shrift once substantial contracts are up for grabs amid French competition, led by Dassault.
The Budget Committee reiterated its request for the company deep dive on June 5, when members approved the initial batch of funds for the FCAS program: $37 million for a study on propulsion options.

Lawmakers inserted a note into their approval text that makes answering the February request a condition for entering into follow-on agreements with France.


https://www.defensenews.com/global/euro ... -air-show/

German politicians...

Re: Spain joins France, Germany on new combat fighter

Unread postPosted: 08 Jun 2019, 22:33
by vilters
Nothing to worry about.
After 12.345 meetings (spending half the budget already) they will split again.

Europe is Europe on paper only.
In the end? Each country will protect its own industry.

We failed with Tornado, a mix from everybody and everything, but good at nothing.

And the split Rafale-Tiffy.
Some really have short memory.

Just wait for the split or half baken result.
Nothing to worry about guys; Nothing to see here.

Re: Spain joins France, Germany on new combat fighter

Unread postPosted: 09 Jun 2019, 07:44
by Corsair1963
Nothing wrong with Spain joining the NGF Program with France and Germany. Yet, keep hearing France is putting big pressure on Spain (among others) not to acquire the F-35. This clearly has nothing to do with the 6th Generation NGF Program. Nor, would acquiring the F-35 take sales from it....


As a matter of fact the F-35 would be a good replacement for the Spanish F/A-18 Hornets (F-35A) and Harrier II's (F-35B). Then when the Typhoons are ready to retire. The NGF's would replace them.

Re: Spain joins France, Germany on new combat fighter

Unread postPosted: 09 Jun 2019, 07:55
by wil59
vilters wrote:Nothing to worry about.
After 12.345 meetings (spending half the budget already) they will split again.

Europe is Europe on paper only.
In the end? Each country will protect its own industry.

We failed with Tornado, a mix from everybody and everything, but good at nothing.

And the split Rafale-Tiffy.
Some really have short memory.

Just wait for the split or half baken result.
Nothing to worry about guys; Nothing to see here.

You're right! France should do it alone would be better! It will cost more, but if it is the price to pay for the project takes shape !.

Re: Spain joins France, Germany on new combat fighter

Unread postPosted: 09 Jun 2019, 10:44
by vilters
Correct,
When France goes solo, they can also export the airframe.
When "Europe" builds the thing, there will always be an export veto somewhere to protect each of the countries interests.

Working together "might" reduce R&D (I highly doubt that anyway) and sharing the industry work WILL create more issues than it will solve and export options become close to ZERO.

Our "EUROPE" political and financial structure has become so complicated that the chances of succes go down by the minute.

Compare that with the future cost of a batch of F-35 for each country involved.

No competition.

Re: Spain joins France, Germany on new combat fighter

Unread postPosted: 17 Jun 2019, 12:22
by loke
Mock-up of the new fighter revealed:

https://defence-blog.com/news/dassault- ... -show.html

https://www.flugrevue.de/militaer/europ ... enthuellt/

Picture 7/7 shows a model of the "carriers" that will be developed in parallel.

https://www.huffingtonpost.fr/entry/sal ... 17ef0c7a18

This a/c looks somewhat familiar...

Re: Spain joins France, Germany on new combat fighter

Unread postPosted: 17 Jun 2019, 12:36
by loke
Guided weapons specialist MBDA has unveiled a broad range of air-launched weapons concepts that could equip a future class of combat aircraft being studied by France and Germany, and also the UK.

Displayed at the European company’s outdoor exhibit, the products range in size from a lightweight glide weapon to a supersonic cruise missile, and span strike weapons to so-called “effectors”, which would be suitable for tasks potentially including electronic attack.

Read more:
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ca-458962/

Re: Spain joins France, Germany on new combat fighter

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2019, 01:16
by forza
Image

Image

Re: Spain joins France, Germany on new combat fighter

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2019, 02:09
by jetblast16
Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery

Re: Spain joins France, Germany on new combat fighter

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2019, 03:23
by charlielima223
https://theaviationist.com/2019/06/18/d ... -air-show/

The Next Generation Fighter mockup’s shape resemble the Northrop YF-23 (the second finalist in the Advanced Tactical Fighter competition which resulted in the F-22) with a slightly more canted tail. The mockup is not very detailed, so it isn’t possible to say if it will be an all-moving tail or a traditional one.

Continuing the comparison with the YF-23, the NGF’s engine nacelles and cockpit appear to be more streamlined. The mockup also sports diverterless supersonic inlets (DSI), similar in shape to those used on the F-35, to ensure high-quality airflow to the engines over a wide range of conditions and reduce the risk of radar waves being reflected when hitting the fan. Like the aircrafts that it’s going to replace, Rafale and Eurofighter, the new fighter uses a delta wing.


Image

Image

Image

Re: Spain joins France, Germany on new combat fighter

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2019, 15:11
by jakobs
Turns out it must be really hard to build a fighter without tail. I really don't like the long nose on the model, but that aside it seems solid.

Re: Spain joins France, Germany on new combat fighter

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2019, 16:40
by sprstdlyscottsmn
I have a bigger issue with the short (in height) canopy. My areas of concern are pilot visibility on landing, Yaw control (those ruddervators are nearly horizontal), and engine airflow (those are tiny inlets).

Re: Spain joins France, Germany on new combat fighter

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2019, 22:35
by vilters
If it is as good as the NH-90 and the AM-400?

What's there to worry about?
They aren't even worth the cost of the aluminium that went into them.

The NH-90 being an overweight maintenance/reliability disaster and the AM-400 does not know if it has to play a grown-up C-130 or a reduced C-17. => No idea what they where thinking, but it is neither.

France and Turky's effort at a stealth airframe look like something like:
"We want to play with the big boys but have no clue what its all about".

Re: Spain joins France, Germany on new combat fighter

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2019, 10:57
by madrat
The design looks focused on frontal stealth. The main wing doesn't look very optimal for anything.

Re: Spain joins France, Germany on new combat fighter

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2019, 14:34
by wil59
vilters wrote:If it is as good as the NH-90 and the AM-400?

What's there to worry about?
They aren't even worth the cost of the aluminium that went into them.

The NH-90 being an overweight maintenance/reliability disaster and the AM-400 does not know if it has to play a grown-up C-130 or a reduced C-17. => No idea what they where thinking, but it is neither.

France and Turky's effort at a stealth airframe look like something like:
"We want to play with the big boys but have no clue what its all about".

Do not sell the bear skin without killing it.

Re: Spain joins France, Germany on new combat fighter

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2019, 14:45
by wil59
wil59 wrote:
vilters wrote:If it is as good as the NH-90 and the AM-400?

What's there to worry about?
They aren't even worth the cost of the aluminium that went into them.

The NH-90 being an overweight maintenance/reliability disaster and the AM-400 does not know if it has to play a grown-up C-130 or a reduced C-17. => No idea what they where thinking, but it is neither.

France and Turky's effort at a stealth airframe look like something like:
"We want to play with the big boys but have no clue what its all about".

Do not sell the bear skin without killing it.

You put Turkey in the same rank as France! Does Turkey have experience in fighter aircraft construction? And even in civil aircraft?

Re: Spain joins France, Germany on new combat fighter

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2019, 14:55
by f-16adf
France by far has the most experience in developing effective combat aircraft in Europe (Mirage III/IV/F1/Rafale). No other country or consortium comes close. Maybe it's best if they go it alone, and not have to deal with Germany/UK or others.

Re: Spain joins France, Germany on new combat fighter

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2019, 16:08
by wil59
sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:I have a bigger issue with the short (in height) canopy. My areas of concern are pilot visibility on landing, Yaw control (those ruddervators are nearly horizontal), and engine airflow (those are tiny inlets).

https://www.dassault-aviation.com/en/. From this angle the air inlets are quite large.

Re: Spain joins France, Germany on new combat fighter

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2019, 16:15
by wil59
f-16adf wrote:France by far has the most experience in developing effective combat aircraft in Europe (Mirage III/IV/F1/Rafale). No other country or consortium comes close. Maybe it's best if they go it alone, and not have to deal with Germany/UK or others.

I agree ! In addition Dassault has some experience on stealth with the Neuron or dassault was the main contractor! Apparently the level of stealth of the Neuron and qualified as éxelant. https://translate.google.fr/translate?i ... ct%3Den_US

Re: Spain joins France, Germany on new combat fighter

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2019, 17:58
by sprstdlyscottsmn
wil59 wrote:
sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:I have a bigger issue with the short (in height) canopy. My areas of concern are pilot visibility on landing, Yaw control (those ruddervators are nearly horizontal), and engine airflow (those are tiny inlets).

https://www.dassault-aviation.com/en/. From this angle the air inlets are quite large.

I'm not seeing anything when I click that link, just a F8X.

Re: Spain joins France, Germany on new combat fighter

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2019, 19:10
by marsavian
Slide the photo pane to the left.

Re: Spain joins France, Germany on new combat fighter

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2019, 21:36
by sprstdlyscottsmn
It won't.

Re: Spain joins France, Germany on new combat fighter

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2019, 21:55
by XanderCrews
Europeans suddenly believe stealth isn't obsolete??

Well Well

Re: Spain joins France, Germany on new combat fighter

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2019, 22:00
by marsavian
Screenshot_2019-06-20-22-02-13.png
sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:It won't.


Use an Android phone with Chrome. I added a screenshot.

Re: Spain joins France, Germany on new combat fighter

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2019, 22:51
by sprstdlyscottsmn
Thanks marsavian. So they went with low and wide inlets. Still skeptical given the size of the plane. When you look at the F-22 or F-35 from the front the inlets dominate. Oh well, curious to see how it will turn out.

Re: Spain joins France, Germany on new combat fighter

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2019, 22:55
by hythelday
XanderCrews wrote:Europeans suddenly believe stealth isn't obsolete??

Well Well


Complete VLO wasn't "balanced approach" until suddenly it was. I once asked a certain frenchman why did euro next-gen feature so many radar stealth features if Rafale already represented the optimal ECM/shaping balance . He stopped posting shortly after, I wonder why.

Re: Spain joins France, Germany on new combat fighter

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2019, 23:05
by marsavian
sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:Thanks marsavian. So they went with low and wide inlets. Still skeptical given the size of the plane. When you look at the F-22 or F-35 from the front the inlets dominate. Oh well, curious to see how it will turn out.


Frankly this aircraft has gone from a tail-less cranked delta to a YF-22/YF-23 clone in a couple of months which tells me they haven't remotely started designing it yet. They are just at the concept prototype stage. Decades away.

p.s. Maybe a Mouse action on a PC will unlock the series of photos on their front page for you.

Re: Spain joins France, Germany on new combat fighter

Unread postPosted: 21 Jun 2019, 10:30
by charlielima223
Also mentions Turkey's own stealth fighter concept...



https://www.businessinsider.com/turkey- ... ept-2019-6

Re: Spain joins France, Germany on new combat fighter

Unread postPosted: 21 Jun 2019, 17:32
by mixelflick
charlielima223 wrote:Also mentions Turkey's own stealth fighter concept...



https://www.businessinsider.com/turkey- ... ept-2019-6


This is so flattering to Lockheed Martin IMO.

From China to France to Turkey, all of these "next gen" fighters look a LOT like the F-22/35. They will likely pale in a real comparison though, albeit what France ultimately comes up with will be of interest. They really haven't produced a loser yet, and some aircraft that weren't built (Mirage 4000) looked to be real gems.

I deliberately omitted the SU-57 as I feel it owes much of its airframe to the YF-23A vs. F-22. It looks as if they squashed a Flanker, added a dash of YF-23A and arrived at.... something unusual. The J-20 appears to have "borrowed" much from the canceled Mikoyan 1.44.

But everyone else appears to be playing monkey see, monkey do. The 2030's will for sure be interesting times..

Re: Spain joins France, Germany on new combat fighter

Unread postPosted: 21 Jun 2019, 17:34
by mixelflick
charlielima223 wrote:Also mentions Turkey's own stealth fighter concept...



https://www.businessinsider.com/turkey- ... ept-2019-6


This is so flattering to Lockheed Martin IMO.

From China to France to Turkey, all of these "next gen" fighters look a LOT like the F-22/35. They will likely pale in a real comparison though, albeit what France ultimately comes up with will be of interest. They really haven't produced a loser yet, and some aircraft that weren't built (Mirage 4000) looked to be real gems.

I deliberately omitted the SU-57 as I feel it owes much of its airframe to the YF-23A vs. F-22. It looks as if they squashed a Flanker, added a dash of YF-23A and arrived at.... something unusual. The J-20 appears to have "borrowed" much from the canceled Mikoyan 1.44.

Re: Spain joins France, Germany on new combat fighter

Unread postPosted: 26 Jun 2019, 00:50
by jetblast16


Vago at it again; brief, but informative clip of the "new" NGF, part of the SCAF program

Re: Spain joins France, Germany on new combat fighter

Unread postPosted: 27 Jun 2019, 01:27
by jetblast16

Re: Spain joins France, Germany on new combat fighter

Unread postPosted: 29 Jun 2019, 01:19
by jetblast16


Cool video showing the "system of systems" concept

Re: Spain joins France, Germany on new combat fighter

Unread postPosted: 14 Feb 2020, 12:02
by marsavian
Dassault, Airbus and partners win Phase 1A contract for FCAS

https://www.airforce-technology.com/new ... e-1a-fcas/

A consortium of Dassault Aviation, Airbus and other partners has received an initial framework contract (Phase 1A) for the development of a next-generation combat jet.

The other partners include MTU Aero Engines, Safran, MBDA and Thales.

In 2017, France and Germany agreed to jointly work on the future air combat system.

The 18-month contract has been awarded by the governments of France and Germany for the launch of the demonstrator phase for the Future Combat Air System (FCAS).

Preliminary work under the deal includes the development of demonstrators and innovative, advanced technologies.

Test flights are expected to commence by 2026.

Re: Spain joins France, Germany on new combat fighter

Unread postPosted: 14 Feb 2020, 15:29
by hythelday
marsavian wrote:Dassault, Airbus and partners win Phase 1A contract for FCAS

https://www.airforce-technology.com/new ... e-1a-fcas/

A consortium of Dassault Aviation, Airbus and other partners has received an initial framework contract (Phase 1A) for the development of a next-generation combat jet.

The other partners include MTU Aero Engines, Safran, MBDA and Thales.

In 2017, France and Germany agreed to jointly work on the future air combat system.

The 18-month contract has been awarded by the governments of France and Germany for the launch of the demonstrator phase for the Future Combat Air System (FCAS).

Preliminary work under the deal includes the development of demonstrators and innovative, advanced technologies.

Test flights are expected to commence by 2026.


Win? Agains whom? :D

As I understand from tge article, Dassault will be mostly responsible for the "fighter" while Airbus concentrates on the drones.

It will be interesting to watch their timeline. It took 6-7 years for ATF and JSF to go from X plane's first flight to that of a production version and about ten years more to achieve IOC. So if they get this thing into service before 2040 I say job well done.