What the Chinese think about Russian Su-35S

Military aircraft - Post cold war aircraft, including for example B-2, Gripen, F-18E/F Super Hornet, Rafale, and Typhoon.
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zero-one

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Unread post21 Feb 2019, 15:19

disconnectedradical wrote:
Most important is VLO and good RWR.

Yes, but I was comparing the teen series against the Mig-31

disconnectedradical wrote:
zero-one wrote:Question though, Paul Metz as well as many Raptor pilots have said that the F-22 is able to kill targets without them ever knowing they were being shot at in the first place. How is this possible? Doesn't the F-22 need to use its own radar for a targeting solution? I know it has LPI modes but that will only make it difficult to locate if I'm not mistaken. So how does the Raptor make a kill without the target ever knowing that its being targeted?


ALR-94.


But can it be used to make a targeting solution? I thought it was only used for detection and maybe tracking but can it also target?
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Unread post21 Feb 2019, 15:34

garrya wrote:How do you know? we don't have any hard numbers.
F-15 can be better than Mig-31 in jam resistance, LPI radar modes, passive BVR detection but high speed maneuverability? likely no.

No hard numbers but I would put the F-15's AESA and kinematic performance over the Mig-31's in all those categories.

Would you really think the Mig-31 would have an advantage in even one of those?
garrya wrote:LPI is useful for stealth aircraft, but when you are inside an aircraft with RCS of a barn like F-15 or Mig-31, it doesn't really matter. What is the point of LPI radar when heading on they can detect you 350-400 km with their radar and you don't have the necessary speed or altitude to catch them from the rear?

LPI is still useful even for non VLO fighters. This means that you can be more liberal in the use of your radar because RWR amd EW systems will have less of a chance to detect you


The Mig-31 doesn't have that option..the moment it turns on its radar its automatically screaming Shoot me to everyone in the area.

4th gen without LPI is like being in a darkroom with a flashlight.

4th gen with LPI radar capabilities is like being in a dark room with Night vision goggles.

5th gen with LPI radar capabilities is like an invisible man in a dark room with night vision goggles.
garrya wrote:Plane needs to pitch so that they can turn
But turning # pitching
logically, Su-57 will have better CLmax than F-22 thanks to LEVCON.


I'm sorry you'll need complex aerodynamic calculations to convince me with that. The Chinese copied the Flanker the F-35 and the F-22. The Japanese X-2 prototype Korean KFX renditions and even Turkey's TFX renditions have elements of the Raptor. And all of them prioritize maneuverability in their designs.

No one seems to be copying the Su-57 tho
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sprstdlyscottsmn

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Unread post21 Feb 2019, 16:12

As I recall, after being informed somewhere on these boards, even the APG-63 in '91 was LPI for the conflict. Tomcat fans used to love to point out that the reason the F-14 got no kills in '91 was because as soon as the Iraqi's saw the AWG-9 on the RWR they ran away and straight into F-15s. This was always claimed to be a result of the Iran Iraq war. The F-15s also had a newer and more advanced signal processing that used wider bandwidth and more frequency changes. This rendered the APG-63 LPI against the Iraqi equipment. Radar and RWR is a constant arms race for detection.
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garrya

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Unread post21 Feb 2019, 17:02

swiss wrote:I Found this about the Zaslon-M.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zaslon#ci ... _Design-18
https://books.google.ch/books?id=Kt2ZaO ... ge&f=false

400Km vs 20m2 Target would mean nearly 250km vs 3m2 Fighter. That would be closer to a RBE2 AA or APG-80. as to the APG-63(V)3. They also say the Mig-31 shot down a traget at 300 Km distance with a R-37.

APG-80 range is around 195 km against target with RCS of 10 m2 that for sure not as powerful as Zaslon-M or Zaslon-AM. I don't think RBE-2 is any better since it is even smaller than APG-80.
Nevertheless, do you really believe that you can shot down Mig-31 from +250 km with any version of AIM-120? Mig-31 can cruise at much higher altitude than any 4 gen and even 5 gen aircraft.
Last edited by garrya on 21 Feb 2019, 17:43, edited 1 time in total.
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garrya

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Unread post21 Feb 2019, 17:42

zero-one wrote:No hard numbers but I would put the F-15's AESA and kinematic performance over the Mig-31's in all those categories.
Would you really think the Mig-31 would have an advantage in even one of those?

Yes i do.
Radar wise, it is very plausible that Zaslon-AM can have longer detection range than APG-63v3, while Zaslon-AM is PESA, it is significantly bigger than APG-63. Of course , there is chance that APG-63v3 has longer detection range too, but it can go either way
Kinematic wise, F-15 is not even close to Mig-31 in speed and altitude, and worse, RVV-BD and R-37 will also enjoy kinematic advantage over AIM-120 due to their sheer size

zero-one wrote:LPI is still useful even for non VLO fighters. This means that you can be more liberal in the use of your radar because RWR amd EW systems will have less of a chance to detect you
The Mig-31 doesn't have that option..the moment it turns on its radar its automatically screaming Shoot me to everyone in the area.
4th gen without LPI is like being in a darkroom with a flashlight.
4th gen with LPI radar capabilities is like being in a dark room with Night vision goggles.
5th gen with LPI radar capabilities is like an invisible man in a dark room with night vision goggles.

A big 4 gen like F-15 with LPI is like an elephant in a dark room with night vision goggles.
Besides,
1- AESA isn't the only kind of radar with LPI characteristic, PESA radar got some too, though not to the same level
2- Zalson-M can detect F-15 from +350 km and F-16 from +189 km, let say RWR on F-15, F-16 can detect Mig-31 from twice that distance, what exactly do you think they can do? Approach from the frontal cone isn't feasible because iam sure you can't shot down something cruise 20,000-25,000 feet higher from > 180 km with AIM-120
Approach from the rear is even more silly, what is AIM-120D tail aspect engagement envelope when the adversary is 20,000ft higher and almost 1.4 Mach faster than yourself?


zero-one wrote:I'm sorry you'll need complex aerodynamic calculations to convince me with that. The Chinese copied the Flanker the F-35 and the F-22. The Japanese X-2 prototype Korean KFX renditions and even Turkey's TFX renditions have elements of the Raptor. And all of them prioritize maneuverability in their designs.
No one seems to be copying the Su-57 tho

First you have to prove that they all prioritized maneuverability over stealth, they might copy F-35, F-22 because they want stealth more than they want agility


zero-one wrote:But can it be used to make a targeting solution? I thought it was only used for detection and maybe tracking but can it also target?

Here
High-priority emitters -- such as fighter aircraft at close range -- can be tracked in real time by the ALR-94. In this mode, called narrowband interleaved search and track (NBILST), the radar is used only to provide precise range and velocity data to set up a missile attack. If a hostile aircraft is injudicious in its use of radar, the ALR-94 may provide nearly all the information necessary to launch an AIM-120 AMRAAM air-to-air missile (AAM)
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Unread post21 Feb 2019, 19:41

garrya wrote:APG-80 range is around 195 km against target with RCS of 10 m2 that for sure not as powerful as Zaslon-M or Zaslon-AM. I don't think RBE-2 is any better since it is even smaller than APG-80.
Nevertheless, do you really believe that you can shot down Mig-31 from +250 km with any version of AIM-120? Mig-31 can cruise at much higher altitude than any 4 gen and even 5 gen aircraft.


I don't know from where you have this numbers. As fahr as i know, the APG-68(V)9 as at least a Range of 105km against a 5m2 Target. And the APG-80 has the twice Range of his predecessor. And the RBE2 AESA has over 50% more range then the RBE2 which is 140 km against a 3m Target.
https://www.aviationtoday.com/2009/06/0 ... us-squall/

Same goes for the APG-63(V)3. So its very likely it has a Range of over 300 km vs a 3m2 Target.

As I mentioned before, Russia Claims 50% probability of detection for the Zaslon. When you put this to western standards (85-90%), the Range of the Zaslon will drop also. And in a jammed environment even more compere to a modern AESA.

So its very likely any western 4 gen with AESA will detect the Mig first. They have also missiles with more range (against a high maneuverable traget).
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Unread post22 Feb 2019, 03:54

Russian aircraft have superb capabilities against civilian airlines and drones. (Not much else.)
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garrya

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Unread post22 Feb 2019, 04:44

swiss wrote: with any version of AIM-120? Mig-31 can cruise at much higher altitude than any 4 gen and even 5 gen aircraft.


I don't know from where you have this numbers. As fahr as i know, the APG-68(V)9 as at least a Range of 105km against a 5m2 Target. And the APG-80 has the twice Range of his predecessor. And the RBE2 AESA has over 50% more range then the RBE2 which is 140 km against a 3m Target.
https://www.aviationtoday.com/2009/06/0 ... us-squall/[/quote]
I got it from here
http://www.radartutorial.eu/19.kartei/0 ... 24.en.html
http://www.radartutorial.eu/19.kartei/0 ... 20.en.html

swiss wrote: They have also missiles with more range (against a high maneuverable traget).

I am 100% sure their missiles aren't longer range than Mig-31's missiles
Not only because of the size difference but also the fact that missiles launch by Mig-31 enjoy altitude and velocity advantage at launch
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Unread post22 Feb 2019, 09:30

garrya wrote:[
swiss wrote: They have also missiles with more range (against a high maneuverable traget).

I am 100% sure their missiles aren't longer range than Mig-31's missiles
Not only because of the size difference but also the fact that missiles launch by Mig-31 enjoy altitude and velocity advantage at launch


Well the RVV-BD has a Range "up to" 200km at certain target types
http://eng.ktrv.ru/production/military_ ... vv-bd.html

But the missile seems not in service by now.

This is actual missile for the Mig-31E. R-33e. Range 120 km

http://eng.ktrv.ru/production/military_ ... r-33e.html

So clearly less range then an AMRAAM-D or Meteor. And the Zaslon has to point all the time to the Target. The R-33 has only a semi-active Radar.
Last edited by swiss on 22 Feb 2019, 13:08, edited 1 time in total.
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marsavian

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Unread post22 Feb 2019, 12:03

The ALR-94 is a very good geolocator (down to 2° by 2° in azimuth and elevation) which can facilitate a very precise focused APG-77 AESA beam on the target which helps the LPI.
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Unread post22 Feb 2019, 16:03

swiss wrote:
garrya wrote:[
swiss wrote: They have also missiles with more range (against a high maneuverable traget).

I am 100% sure their missiles aren't longer range than Mig-31's missiles
Not only because of the size difference but also the fact that missiles launch by Mig-31 enjoy altitude and velocity advantage at launch


Well the RVV-BD has a Range "up to" 200km at certain target types
http://eng.ktrv.ru/production/military_ ... vv-bd.html

But the missile seems not in service by now.

This is actual missile for the Mig-31E. R-33e. Range 120 km

http://eng.ktrv.ru/production/military_ ... r-33e.html

So clearly less range then an AMRAAM-D or Meteor. And the Zaslon has to point all the time to the Target. The R-33 has only a semi-active Radar.


Unless there's been some big upgrade of the R-33, it's pretty long in the tooth by now. Similar to the Phoenix, it is heavy and likely less capable vs. fighter sized targets than bombers, cruise missiles or certainly commercial airliners lol. Speaking of which, the R-33 sure looks familiar, doesn't it? Sure looks like those rumors of Iranian F-14's/Phoenix making their way to Moscow were true (but if I'm not mistaken, they've been disproven). It is clearly out-ranged by the AIM-120D. Unless it attacks its target from the top down, it's doubtful it can bring down an aggressively maneuvering target (F-15 or certainly an F-22) .

Balanced against this would be an R-33 launch at supersonic speeds, as I'll grant the height/speed advantage to the Mig-31. We can't discount that. It's just faster and flies higher than the F-15, no question.

And if the R-33's and Slammers all miss? I wouldn't want to be a Mig-31 close in with an F-15, that's for sure. Best defense would be to run. And she appears to have the fuel and zip to do so...
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milosh

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Unread post22 Feb 2019, 20:19

@swiss

MiG-31E and R-33E are more less same as first MiG-31 and first variant of R-33. After spy was discover MiG-31 got modified radar and modified missile (R-33S).

Be careful with R-33 range. What Russians are writing are just informational not real numbers. For example R-33 had 120km but that isn't limit of missile but first PESA radar.

R-33 is heavier then AIM-54 and have dual pulse engine so 120km is very unrealistic if we talk about missile only.

For example they score +300km target kill during 1994 testing:
Первый полет опытного истребителя-перехватчика МиГ-31М состоялся 21 декабря 1985 г. (экипаж — летчик-испытатель Б.А. Орлов и штурман-испытатель Л.С. Попов). Построено шесть опытных самолетов. В апреле 1994 г. Президент России направил поздравительную телеграмму создателям самолета МиГ-31М и его системы вооружения в связи с успешным проведением первых в мире испытаний по поражению воздушной цели на дальности свыше 300 км.
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Unread post22 Feb 2019, 22:57

milosh wrote:R-33 is heavier then AIM-54 and have dual pulse engine


That means boost-sustain. The AIM-54 had a sustain-only motor that sacrificed acceleration and top speed for very long burn time.

Combined with the R-33 being only semi-active versus active-radar on the AIM-54, the R-33's kill probability against a maneuvering target would be considerably lower than that of the AIM-54, except at short range where the boost stage of the R-33's motor would give it greater energy.
Last edited by knowan on 23 Feb 2019, 03:04, edited 3 times in total.
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Unread post22 Feb 2019, 23:22

milosh wrote:@swiss

MiG-31E and R-33E are more less same as first MiG-31 and first variant of R-33. After spy was discover MiG-31 got modified radar and modified missile (R-33S).

Be careful with R-33 range. What Russians are writing are just informational not real numbers. For example R-33 had 120km but that isn't limit of missile but first PESA radar.

R-33 is heavier then AIM-54 and have dual pulse engine so 120km is very unrealistic if we talk about missile only.

For example they score +300km target kill during 1994 testing:
Первый полет опытного истребителя-перехватчика МиГ-31М состоялся 21 декабря 1985 г. (экипаж — летчик-испытатель Б.А. Орлов и штурман-испытатель Л.С. Попов). Построено шесть опытных самолетов. В апреле 1994 г. Президент России направил поздравительную телеграмму создателям самолета МиГ-31М и его системы вооружения в связи с успешным проведением первых в мире испытаний по поражению воздушной цели на дальности свыше 300 км.


Hello Milosh. The Mig-35BM has the Zaslon (A)M, which has 100% better performance then original Zaslon-A Radar. According to Flug Revue, a serious german flight magazine, the Zaslon-AM has Range of 240km. The article is from 2014.So i don't know if the BM is in service by now

https://translate.google.ch/translate?h ... ystemen%2F

It seems, the R-37, which shoot down a Target 300km away never entert service. And the R-33e should be the newest version of the R-33. And it is very unlikely, that the Russian manufacturers will understate the range of their weapons.. :wink:

BTW According to Tass 2 "BM" where delivered to Russian AF a view days ago. And there is only mention they can carry the R-33 and R-77.

http://tass.com/defense/1045485
Last edited by swiss on 23 Feb 2019, 08:13, edited 1 time in total.
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milosh

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Unread post23 Feb 2019, 08:11

knowan wrote:
milosh wrote:R-33 is heavier then AIM-54 and have dual pulse engine


That means boost-sustain. The AIM-54 had a sustain-only motor that sacrificed acceleration and top speed for very long burn time.

Combined with the R-33 being only semi-active versus active-radar on the AIM-54, the R-33's kill probability against a maneuvering target would be considerably lower than that of the AIM-54, except at short range where the boost stage of the R-33's motor would give it greater energy.


My mistake cold war R-33 had sustain-only engine, for R-33E was developed dual pulse engine, more space for sustain phase was achieved by smaller and lighter electronics and smaller warhead.

So it look like they combine long burn time with sustain capability with later R-33 variants.

@swiss

BM version of MiG-31 is in service for years, 240km radar range isn't max range of radar, even old N007 have much longer range if you look radar screen and know what to look. 240km for BM is for fighter size target which is by Russian standard 3m2.

Btw that range isn't nothing so special if you look radar size. They could pull lot more (old N007 used 30kW) if they wanted to spend money but they didn't.

According by commander of Russian AF R-37 is in operational or IOC, same you could here from MiG-31 unit commander in documentary about MiG-31, he mentioned ABM capability of new missiles they have and hypersonic speed of those missile which correspondent with R-37 info (Mach 6 class missile).

But stockpile of R-37 is very small missile became operational in 2018 and it surely isn't cheap so R-33S is lot more common on MiG-31 then R-37.

R-33E was export missile so no they probable don't have that missile in service.

It would be interesting to see advantage R-77 have when launch from MiG-31.
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