What the Chinese think about Russian Su-35S

Military aircraft - Post cold war aircraft, including for example B-2, Gripen, F-18E/F Super Hornet, Rafale, and Typhoon.
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weasel1962

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Unread post21 Feb 2019, 07:25

The old ACIG forum had a page on AMRAAM kills by distance. Not sure if can still access it.
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hornetfinn

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Unread post21 Feb 2019, 08:25

zero-one wrote:Well....thing is. With BVR, absolute max ranges isn't really as important as what we might think.

All BVR shots I've read and heard about happened below 20 NM. If someone has documentations on kills that were further then I'm open for correction.

I think properties like jam resistance, LPI radar modes, passive BVR detection, data linking to missiles, overall situational awareness, even high speed maneuverability is more important in a BVR fight. In those respects the F-15 would be best among all 4th gens and will be far superior to any Mig-31.


I totally agree with this. Max range is just one measure how good a missile or radar is. There are multiple other just as important or even more important indicators.

Btw, there are really no LPI radar modes. Radars have LPI features which are used in all radar modes, although not necessarily all features are applicable to all modes. And different radars have differernt LPI features and implementations. Pretty much all military radars designed during the last 40 years or so have some kind of LPI features implemented as they also enhance other performance figures. However only the latest AESA radars can be considered real LPI radars when we talk about radars in fighter jets.

zero-one wrote:Question though, Paul Metz as well as many Raptor pilots have said that the F-22 is able to kill targets without them ever knowing they were being shot at in the first place. How is this possible? Doesn't the F-22 need to use its own radar for a targeting solution? I know it has LPI modes but that will only make it difficult to locate if I'm not mistaken. So how does the Raptor make a kill without the target ever knowing that its being targeted?


LPI means Low Probability of Intercept. This means the radar signals are difficult to detect, which then means that RWR/ESM systems can detect them at shorter ranges. Basically the radar signal is so random and spread over wide bandwith that it doesn't stand out from background noise. If signals are detected, they are also more difficult to identify which means that RWR/ESM system might not be able to tell what kind of radar or other transmitter has sent those signals or what they mean (like are they targeted or not). This is achieved by varying the radar signal seemingly randomly.

F-22 can do those kinds of kills, because the target RWR/ESM system isn't alerted by the radar signals as they can't filter them out from background noise.
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garrya

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Unread post21 Feb 2019, 08:51

zero-one wrote:I think properties like jam resistance, LPI radar modes, passive BVR detection, data linking to missiles, overall situational awareness, even high speed maneuverability is more important in a BVR fight. In those respects the F-15 would be best among all 4th gens and will be far superior to any Mig-31

How do you know? we don't have any hard numbers.
F-15 can be better than Mig-31 in jam resistance, LPI radar modes, passive BVR detection but high speed maneuverability? likely no.
LPI is useful for stealth aircraft, but when you are inside an aircraft with RCS of a barn like F-15 or Mig-31, it doesn't really matter. What is the point of LPI radar when heading on they can detect you 350-400 km with their radar and you don't have the necessary speed or altitude to catch them from the rear?

zero-one wrote:In WVR there is too little information on the Su-57 to make a conclusion. As it is now, the TVC system only deflects 15 degrees in the pitch axis. Planes turn by banking then pitching so its safe to assume that if TVC is needed the F-22 will have more pitch control available.

Plane needs to pitch so that they can turn
But turning # pitching
logically, Su-57 will have better CLmax than F-22 thanks to LEVCON.
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disconnectedradical

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Unread post21 Feb 2019, 09:47

zero-one wrote:I think properties like jam resistance, LPI radar modes, passive BVR detection, data linking to missiles, overall situational awareness, even high speed maneuverability is more important in a BVR fight. In those respects the F-15 would be best among all 4th gens and will be far superior to any Mig-31.


Most important is VLO and good RWR and ESM.

zero-one wrote:Question though, Paul Metz as well as many Raptor pilots have said that the F-22 is able to kill targets without them ever knowing they were being shot at in the first place. How is this possible? Doesn't the F-22 need to use its own radar for a targeting solution? I know it has LPI modes but that will only make it difficult to locate if I'm not mistaken. So how does the Raptor make a kill without the target ever knowing that its being targeted?


ALR-94.

zero-one wrote:In WVR there is too little information on the Su-57 to make a conclusion. As it is now, the TVC system only deflects 15 degrees in the pitch axis. Planes turn by banking then pitching so its safe to assume that if TVC is needed the F-22 will have more pitch control available.


You can't just look at deflection angle. Also how far nozzle is from CG, and moment of inertia. Su-57 LEVCON will probably give it better high alpha. It can also yaw better because canted TVC can make yaw moments.
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babybat{}.net

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Unread post21 Feb 2019, 10:03

zero-one wrote:Maybe even visually, I read that the most difficult color to see in the sky are actually varying shades of gray which is why all US aircraft are painted gray. The Su-57s blue camo pattern just screams hey shoot me.


just a screenshot from the last video..
Attachments
su-27 f-15 002.png
Last edited by babybat{}.net on 21 Feb 2019, 10:03, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread post21 Feb 2019, 10:03

garrya wrote:logically, Su-57 will have better CLmax than F-22 thanks to LEVCON.

with a higher sweep angle and smaller tailplanes? I would not be so confident in that assertion.
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garrya

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Unread post21 Feb 2019, 10:22

sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:with a higher sweep angle and smaller tailplanes? I would not be so confident in that assertion.

Obviously, you know a lot more about aerodynamic than me, so your assertion will be more accurate
.Still i don't think there is a lot of difference between sweep angle of Su-57 and F-22.
T-50_YF-23_F-22_F-35_Air_Force_Aircraft_Comparison.jpg
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swiss

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Unread post21 Feb 2019, 10:37

knowan wrote:
Assuming that is against a fighter sized target of 5 m^2,


Yes, thats very likely. And range of the Zeslon is with a probability of detection of 50%. So the range drops even more against a western Radar.

I have no doubt the Mig-31 was a very dangerous BVR Fighter in the 80s and 90s. This show also the shutdown of a Hornet in the Gulf war from an Iraki Mig-25. And the latest Mig-31 should be still a capable BVR Fighter today. Against western Fighters with AESA, AMRAAM-D and Meteor, i assume the Mig is in a clearly disadvantage.

hornetfinn wrote:LPI means Low Probability of Intercept. This means the radar signals are difficult to detect, which then means that RWR/ESM systems can detect them at shorter ranges. Basically the radar signal is so random and spread over wide bandwith that it doesn't stand out from background noise. If signals are detected, they are also more difficult to identify which means that RWR/ESM system might not be able to tell what kind of radar or other transmitter has sent those signals or what they mean (like are they targeted or not). This is achieved by varying the radar signal seemingly randomly.

F-22 can do those kinds of kills, because the target RWR/ESM system isn't alerted by the radar signals as they can't filter them out from background noise.


Should Fighters like F-35 or Rafale not be able to detect the IR Signature of an incoming missile, with her DAS and DDM-NG?
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knowan

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Unread post21 Feb 2019, 10:46

garrya wrote:But why stop with the basic Zaslon while current Mig-31 already has Zaslon-M and many had been upgraded to Zaslon-AM?


Because the F-14 was retired before the MiG-31 received the Zaslon-M.

And if we want to compare Zaslon-M, we'd be comparing PESA against AESA like APG-63v3, APG-77 and APG-81, where the Zaslon-M is very likely outclassed in detection range but also loses in antenna technology.



collimatrix wrote:The consensus I had read is that boost and sustain motors for AAMs do not work terribly well, although the technology might be more workable in larger missiles. Apparently the grain likes to flake and do other bad things, and the nozzle can only be optimized for one burn rate.


It appears to have made a large difference in AIM-7M vs R-27R/T kinematics and overall effectiveness.

Eg, R-27R appears to have had a maximum range of about 25 km, about half that of AIM-7M and AIM-120A/B.



zero-one wrote:The Su-57s blue camo pattern just screams hey shoot me.


It also screams 'we still don't have a working RAM coating!'.
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garrya

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Unread post21 Feb 2019, 11:40

knowan wrote:Because the F-14 was retired before the MiG-31 received the Zaslon-M.
And if we want to compare Zaslon-M, we'd be comparing PESA against AESA like APG-63v3, APG-77 and APG-81, where the Zaslon-M is very likely outclassed in detection range but also loses in antenna technology

What Zaslon-M lack in technology, it made up for in sheer size.
I meant that PESA is a lot bigger than anything else on fighters including APG-63 and Irbis-E
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Unread post21 Feb 2019, 12:07

garrya wrote:
knowan wrote:I meant that PESA is a lot bigger than anything else on fighters including APG-63 and Irbis-E


IIRC the dash has a diameter of 1.4m. But even with that size, it was inferior to an APG-63 at least in Range. So i really doubt its in the same League then a APG-63(V)3.

And the Irbis-E was a big step forward for the Russians Fighter Radars. According to the manufacturer it has over the double Range in cued search (100 square degrees) then the latest Bars.
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hornetfinn

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Unread post21 Feb 2019, 12:21

swiss wrote:
hornetfinn wrote:LPI means Low Probability of Intercept. This means the radar signals are difficult to detect, which then means that RWR/ESM systems can detect them at shorter ranges. Basically the radar signal is so random and spread over wide bandwith that it doesn't stand out from background noise. If signals are detected, they are also more difficult to identify which means that RWR/ESM system might not be able to tell what kind of radar or other transmitter has sent those signals or what they mean (like are they targeted or not). This is achieved by varying the radar signal seemingly randomly.

F-22 can do those kinds of kills, because the target RWR/ESM system isn't alerted by the radar signals as they can't filter them out from background noise.


Should Fighters like F-35 or Rafale not be able to detect the IR Signature of an incoming missile, with her DAS and DDM-NG?


Possibly, but effects of those are likely not currently simulated in exercises even with those aircraft. Probably in the future with LVC simulations.

Of course most fighter jets at the moment don't have those kind of capabilities and would likely not detect the missiles themselves passively. Only F-22, F-35 and latest Rafales seem to have that capability to some degree. Sure, Chinese are clearly going to field their systems in the future also, but likely in fairly small numbers in their latest aircraft (at least at first).
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Unread post21 Feb 2019, 13:22

hornetfinn wrote:Possibly, but effects of those are likely not currently simulated in exercises even with those aircraft. Probably in the future with LVC simulations.

Of course most fighter jets at the moment don't have those kind of capabilities and would likely not detect the missiles themselves passively. Only F-22, F-35 and latest Rafales seem to have that capability to some degree. Sure, Chinese are clearly going to field their systems in the future also, but likely in fairly small numbers in their latest aircraft (at least at first).


Ok. Thanks for clarification. According to MBDA and northropgrumman it was designed exactly for that purpose.

https://www.mbda-systems.com/product/ddm-ng/

https://www.mbda-systems.com/?action=fo ... t_id=15319

http://www.northropgrumman.com/Capabili ... fault.aspx



I Found this about the Zaslon-M.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zaslon#ci ... _Design-18
https://books.google.ch/books?id=Kt2ZaO ... ge&f=false

400Km vs 20m2 Target would mean nearly 250km vs 3m2 Fighter. That would be closer to a RBE2 AA or APG-80. as to the APG-63(V)3. They also say the Mig-31 shot down a traget at 300 Km distance with a R-37.
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Unread post21 Feb 2019, 14:20

disconnectedradical wrote:In early 90s the MiG-31 BVR on paper was probably better than the teen fighters. It had PESA while all US fighters had mechanically scanned radars, it even had data link. With upgraded AIM-120 and AESA the F-15 probably turned it around but MiG-31 is no slouch.

With izd.30 engines Su-57 WVR can probably match or exceed F-22's, though it's really down to the pilot. There's a lot of other problems with Su-57 though.


I'll second the notion the Mig-31 is damn dangerous BVR (and otherwise), even today. I made the point earlier about the Mig-25 downing Spike's F/A-18 in Gulf War 1. Had the Iraqi's been flying Mig-31's vs. 25's, I'm not sure it would have been the relative cakewalk that it was.

I don't think the SU-57 is going to wind up with many (if any) advantages vs. the Raptor WVR (or certainly BVR). I understand video's aren't everything, but c'mon. How much tighter do F-22 turns like this get, especially having so much excess power left it can go into the vertical! The human body can only take so much..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79YDaenv_UU

F-22/SU-57 turn rates notwithstanding, anything this close is going to be the domain of the 9x or R-73. Neither jet is going to out-turn those missiles...
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knowan

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Unread post21 Feb 2019, 14:30

I respect the MiG-31 more than Fulcrums and Flankers, entirely due to its BVR capabilities.
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