4th vs 5th gen differences

Military aircraft - Post cold war aircraft, including for example B-2, Gripen, F-18E/F Super Hornet, Rafale, and Typhoon.
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mixelflick

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Unread post24 Jan 2019, 16:08

The F-22 still has many advantages over the 35, not all of which are known. There's a reason the F-22 is barred for export, while the F-35 will be sold to whoever has the $ and cleared by the state department. Ponder that for a moment..

The Typhoon playing on the F-22's level? Perhaps, but with one very important caveat: Typhoon pilots were quick to acknowledge the F-22 has "overwhelming" BVR capabilities. Translation? They got waylaid in BVR.

What they're talking about was WVR, assuming the fight would have gotten to that (in the real world, it wouldn't). The Typhoon can turn with the F-22, provided it punched its tanks and was "clean" (or at least cleaner). That's an important point, because a totally clean Typhoon is.... unrealistic. If instead they referred to it being "cleaner" (meaning a few AAM's), that's a different story.

But again, in the real world the Raptor approaches a WVR fight with overwhelming SA advantages. It will dictate the range, speed, approach angle etc of the fight and it likely WON'T be any type of turning engagement. This was before the Raptor got the 9x btw, which is described as a "near BVR missile". You can bet it's for sure BVR when launched supersonic, which again is an advantage the Raptor has at its disposal.

Raptors vs. Typhoons isn't a scenario we can envision today, although it's not entirely outside the realm of possibility. Even so, I'd want a Raptor for sure vs. an F-35.

The known (and unknown) advantages it holds are simply too much to ignore...
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marsavian

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Unread post24 Jan 2019, 19:53

Even so, I'd want a Raptor for sure vs. an F-35.

So an F-35 and F-22 square off and converge at range. The F-35 playing it safe switches off its radar so how does the F-22 spot the F-35 before it's spotted on EOTS/DAS ? That will be tough for the APG-77 to do against EOTS even it maybe more touch and go against DAS.

The Raptor is more specialized, a perfect stalking interceptor that can wreak havoc against the plethora of non/semi stealthy opponents it would face. It would spear opponents at the very tip of your offensive/defensive force where it's pretty clear who the bandits are. The F-35 however is the more rounded fighter which is probably more useful in the quantities it's going to be bought by everyone.
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knowan

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Unread post24 Jan 2019, 20:09

marsavian wrote:
Even so, I'd want a Raptor for sure vs. an F-35.

So an F-35 and F-22 square off and converge at range. The F-35 playing it safe switches off its radar so how does the F-22 spot the F-35 before it's spotted on EOTS/DAS ?


Little point switching off the radar, neither F-22 or F-35 ESM are likely to be sensitive enough to pick up LPI AESA beyond very short ranges.

Very high sensitivety is required to detect those emissions, which are only installed on dedicated ELINT platforms.
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Unread post24 Jan 2019, 20:19

knowan wrote:
marsavian wrote:
Even so, I'd want a Raptor for sure vs. an F-35.

So an F-35 and F-22 square off and converge at range. The F-35 playing it safe switches off its radar so how does the F-22 spot the F-35 before it's spotted on EOTS/DAS ?


Little point switching off the radar, neither F-22 or F-35 ESM are likely to be sensitive enough to pick up LPI AESA beyond very short ranges.

Very high sensitivety is required to detect those emissions, which are only installed on dedicated ELINT platforms.

You may want to rethink that. The AESA antenna of the "targeted" aircraft is picking up a signal four times stronger than that of the receiving antenna, and they are equivalent antennas.
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knowan

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Unread post24 Jan 2019, 20:51

sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:You may want to rethink that. The AESA antenna of the "targeted" aircraft is picking up a signal four times stronger than that of the receiving antenna, and they are equivalent antennas.


I only have a layman's understanding of the topic, but as I understand it, coded pulses and frequency hoping by the emiting radar makes it harder for a hostile antenna to detect the emissions while not making it harder for its own receiver to pick up the reflected signal (because it knows what to look for; hostile receivers don't).
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Unread post24 Jan 2019, 21:00

That much is correct. But you stated it was not sensitive enough. The APG-81/Barracuda combo has been stated to detect and jam the APG-77 of an F-22. Range was not given, but no other system has even ever claimed the ability to detect the emissions of an APG-77.
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knowan

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Unread post24 Jan 2019, 21:04

sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:That much is correct. But you stated it was not sensitive enough. The APG-81/Barracuda combo has been stated to detect and jam the APG-77 of an F-22. Range was not given, but no other system has even ever claimed the ability to detect the emissions of an APG-77.


Huh, fair enough. I wasn't aware the F-35's ESM was that good or had achieved that success; I was under the impression that while the Barracuda was highly capable, it wasn't that much more sensitive than older systems.
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Unread post24 Jan 2019, 21:24

The Barracuda is to older systems what the APG-81 is to older systems, as the APG-81 is part of the Barracuda as well.
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Unread post25 Jan 2019, 01:29

Question, wouldn't the APG-77 also be able to Jam the APG-81? I remember reading here that the 77 is so powerful that in can actually be used to burn electronic equipment from a specific range. Is that even possible.

Regarding the Typhoon being on the same level as the Raptor. The Brits were really pushing the narrative that the Tiffy and F-22 were on the same level.

Typhoon pilot claimed that they simply chose a different approach (super agility instead of stealth) to face future combat needs.
This graph perfectly illustrates how similar and in some cases superior/practical the Typhoon is compared to the Raptor. At least thats the narrative they wanted
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firebase99

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Unread post25 Jan 2019, 04:42

zero-one wrote:Question, wouldn't the APG-77 also be able to Jam the APG-81? I remember reading here that the 77 is so powerful that in can actually be used to burn electronic equipment from a specific range. Is that even possible.

Regarding the Typhoon being on the same level as the Raptor. The Brits were really pushing the narrative that the Tiffy and F-22 were on the same level.

Typhoon pilot claimed that they simply chose a different approach (super agility instead of stealth) to face future combat needs.
This graph perfectly illustrates how similar and in some cases superior/practical the Typhoon is compared to the Raptor. At least thats the narrative they wanted


Talk about cherry picking, wow. "Wings. Both have 'em. Engines? Both have 2, check. Vertical stabilizer? Roger, Tiffy has one, makes more stealthy than having two. Copy that."
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Unread post25 Jan 2019, 08:07

zero-one wrote:
hornetfinn wrote:
I'd say F-35 has some key advantages also when compared to F-22.


I'm not going to disagree with you there. But I have a few opinions about it.

1. Numbers and availability : The assigned mission will still dictate who does what. If all the F-22s and all the F-35s will be focused on air superiority then you're absolutely right. The overwhelming number of F-35s will give them an advantage. But just like in the gulf war were a smaller number of F-15s were tasked with CAP and the more numerous F-16s were tasked with strike missions resulting in F-15s getting most ot the kills, the F-22s and most ot the F-35s will also fall into simillar roles.

2. Networking. The impressive networking capabilities of the F-35 will not benefit other F-35s exclusively though. That info will be shared with F-22s who I think will be tasked with actually engaging enemy aircraft.

3. SA. : the thing about SA is, I think both planes have more than enough SA to engage a bandit. imagine a scenario where a Su-30 is detected by both planes. They both know its a Flanker, they both know its hostile, they both have all the relevant data they need to engage. But the F-35 knows its carrying 2 R-27s, 4 R-74s and 2 R-77, it also knows that The GIB is eating a sandwich.

Point is, yes the F-35 knows more, but most of it is icing on the cake in A-A. I still think that for an A-A mission there is nothing that the Apg-77/ALR-94 combo can't provide for the F-22 to give it's pilot all the SA he needs.

But I am not trying to contradict your points, they are valid for me.


1. In the Desert Storm there were about half as many F-15C/Ds as there were F-16s. The difference between numerical ratio of F-15/F-16 and F-22/F-35 is pretty much huge. Total ratio of F-15/F-16 ever produced is about 1:4. For F-22/F-35 it will be at least 1:20 and even for USAF, it will be at least 1:10. So it's a lot more possible (or even necessary) to task F-35s for air-to-air than F-16 ever was. One big difference is also that 5th gen fighters (F-35 especially) are a lot more capable of doing things like guiding weapons for other platforms or engaging enemy aircraft even when doing air-to-ground mission. They do things simultaneously whereas 4th gen fighters have to switch modes manually. So we may see situation where air-to-ground tasked F-35 guides an AIM-120 fired by another F-35, F-22 or even Aegis ship. So who does the killing then, that's an interesting question? I think this is one of the major differences between 4th and 5th gen fighters.

2. Currently there is pretty huge difference between data exchange between F-35s using MADL and F-35 to F-22 (or any other platform) using Link 16. I'm sure at some point they will use common data links or that can be handled with those proposed communications gateways. Of course those gateway platforms would be vulnerable to enemy attacks and direct communications would be preferred. I do agree that F-35 and F-22 can work very synergistically even with Link 16.

3. SA against Flankers or other 4th gen fighters is not a problem for either as Flanker has huge RCS and easily recognizable RF transmissions. F-22 would even have the edge there due to having more powerful radar system. Of course both will detect, track and ID Su-30 very, very far away. There will be difference in situations like detecting J-20, cruise missiles or other potentially very low RCS targets. F-35 will also have superior SA against ballistic or anti-aircraft missiles due to having much more advanced distributed aperture system (which naturally could be upgraded in F-22 at some point).

I do think that comparing F-35 and F-22 is pretty pointless though. F-22 will be the main air-to-air machine in USAF even if F-35 was equally capable. I do think that F-35s will be used for air-to-air combat at some point and they will fare extremely well. Together they will be overwhelming force, even more so than F-15/F-16 combo.
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Unread post25 Jan 2019, 08:23

zero-one wrote:Question, wouldn't the APG-77 also be able to Jam the APG-81? I remember reading here that the 77 is so powerful that in can actually be used to burn electronic equipment from a specific range. Is that even possible.


Yes, depending on range and protection level of said electronic equipment. I doubt it can be done against military grade electronics at any really useful range though. The radiation power per unit of area will very quickly go down with range. The radiation power one kilometer away will be less than 1/1000 of the radiated power measured directly from radar antenna.
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mixelflick

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Unread post25 Jan 2019, 18:18

firebase99 wrote:
zero-one wrote:Question, wouldn't the APG-77 also be able to Jam the APG-81? I remember reading here that the 77 is so powerful that in can actually be used to burn electronic equipment from a specific range. Is that even possible.

Regarding the Typhoon being on the same level as the Raptor. The Brits were really pushing the narrative that the Tiffy and F-22 were on the same level.

Typhoon pilot claimed that they simply chose a different approach (super agility instead of stealth) to face future combat needs.
This graph perfectly illustrates how similar and in some cases superior/practical the Typhoon is compared to the Raptor. At least thats the narrative they wanted


Talk about cherry picking, wow. "Wings. Both have 'em. Engines? Both have 2, check. Vertical stabilizer? Roger, Tiffy has one, makes more stealthy than having two. Copy that."


This had me in stitches :)

But yes, that was my thought too when reading the schematic. For a Typhoon pilot who may have scored a kill vs. a Raptor in WVR combat, I'm sure that was his lasting memory of their duel. Almost makes you forget you got blasted out of the sky by AMRAAM's before the merge...
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marsavian

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Unread post25 Jan 2019, 19:41

Question, wouldn't the APG-77 also be able to Jam the APG-81?


Yes, but that doesn't solve the IRST deficit. The F-35 is the one aircraft in the world the F-22 would have a serious problem with at BVR. Sure if it got to the merge successfully then it would be the favorite but it would have to get there first in one piece. Which is why a minimum DAS MLU update for the F-22 Raptor is pretty essential to keep its talons sharp against Su-57/J-20/J-31.
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Unread post25 Jan 2019, 19:54

The current MLU for the F-22 includes new sensors. No specifics have been mentioned, but it's already got radar and ESM covered, which doesn't leave a whole lot of guessing, as to what sort of sensors they are.
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