Top BVR fighters

Military aircraft - Post cold war aircraft, including for example B-2, Gripen, F-18E/F Super Hornet, Rafale, and Typhoon.
  • Author
  • Message
Offline

zero-one

Elite 1K

Elite 1K

  • Posts: 1862
  • Joined: 23 Jul 2013, 16:19
  • Location: New Jersey

Unread post25 Nov 2018, 00:34

garrya wrote:The details about JHMCS and AIM-9X wasn't in the original articles AFAIK. Also the 1 vs 8 wasn't mentioned there either. So it seem a bit sketchy to say the least
http://www.acc.af.mil/News/Features/Dis ... -flag.aspx

The original article seems to have glossed over a lot of the details.

But more evidence leans towards the availability of 9x in that excercise.

1. It happened in 2007, 4 years after the introduction of 9X. The 422nd FS were traing against advanced IR guided HOBS capable missiles with helmet mounted cueing in the 90s before the 9x was actually put into service.

Why would they stop training against it after it was put into service.

2. Tailgate was clear, in WVR, high energy was his way of fighting in an F-22 and the inability to be targeted was key.

Why would we assume that he was only talking about radar? In WVR no less. He was definitely talking heat seekers.

All the shots of an F-22 with IR sensors seem to be at extremely close ranges with extensive use of AB prior or during the shot.

And aggressors always IRST pods when traning against F-22s and F-35s but we still see lopsided kill numbers from those 2.
Offline

garrya

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 646
  • Joined: 25 Dec 2015, 12:43

Unread post25 Nov 2018, 04:06

zero-one wrote: The original article seems to have glossed over a lot of the details.

Or those are the only real details available
zero-one wrote:1. It happened in 2007, 4 years after the introduction of 9X. The 422nd FS were traing against advanced IR guided HOBS capable missiles with helmet mounted cueing in the 90s before the 9x was actually put into service.

Can you source that?
zero-one wrote:2. Tailgate was clear, in WVR, high energy was his way of fighting in an F-22 and the inability to be targeted was key.
Why would we assume that he was only talking about radar? In WVR no less. He was definitely talking heat seekers.

Because unless fundermental physics as we know it change,you can’t make an aircraft invisible in infrared, at most we can assume F-22 has a DIRCM turret for close engagement.

zero-one wrote:All the shots of an F-22 with IR sensors seem to be at extremely close ranges with extensive use of AB prior or during the shot.

I don’t think it is any shorter than most airshow IR video

zero-one wrote:And aggressors always IRST pods when traning against F-22s and F-35s but we still see lopsided kill numbers from those 2.

But aggressors all have massive RCS vs stealth fighter.
Offline

knowan

Active Member

Active Member

  • Posts: 141
  • Joined: 24 Jul 2018, 10:39

Unread post25 Nov 2018, 06:29

garrya wrote:Because unless fundermental physics as we know it change,you can’t make an aircraft invisible in infrared


You can't make an aircraft invisible to radar either, but you can significantly reduce detection range.
Offline

charlielima223

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 924
  • Joined: 12 Jan 2014, 19:26

Unread post25 Nov 2018, 07:17

Image
Offline

zero-one

Elite 1K

Elite 1K

  • Posts: 1862
  • Joined: 23 Jul 2013, 16:19
  • Location: New Jersey

Unread post25 Nov 2018, 09:50

garrya wrote:
zero-one wrote:It happened in 2007, 4 years after the introduction of 9X.

Can you source that?


Well it should be obvious cause the 9X went into service in 2003 while the F-22 reached IOC in 2005. I doubt they let it join exercises before they placed her active. But if you need a link, here:

https://fortunascorner.wordpress.com/20 ... roversies/
Red Flag “Colonial Flag” 2007, exchange pilot offers his impressions :

“I can’t see the [expletive deleted] thing,” said RAAF Squadron Leader Stephen Chappell, exchange F-15 pilot in the 65th Aggressor Squadron. “It won’t let me put a weapons system on it, even when I can see it visually through the canopy. [Flying against the F-22] annoys the hell out of me.”



Okay, we can agree that the F-22 has a reduced IR signature right,
We also know that a missile, any missile, including the Aim-9X, takes time before locking on.
So wouldn't it make sense for the 9X to take longer to lock on a target with a reduced IR signature than your average 4th gen target?

The 422nd FS were traing against advanced IR guided HOBS capable missiles with helmet mounted cueing in the 90s before the 9x was actually put into service.


https://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/file ... _Stall.pdf
I got to fly two flights using a helmet mounted
sight. Adding this capability coupled with an AIM-9X/AA-11
weapon makes the airplane nearly unbeatable in a low speed fight


That test was carried it out in the 90s with the X-31 test. Even as early as then simulating the 9X was already practiced, why would we even assume that they would stop doing that in RedFlag 2007 and resort to using Radar guided weapons at close range against the F-22.
Offline

garrya

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 646
  • Joined: 25 Dec 2015, 12:43

Unread post25 Nov 2018, 13:07

knowan wrote:You can't make an aircraft invisible to radar either, but you can significantly reduce detection range.

There is a massive difference between reduce RCS and reduce IR signature.
This is what RAM can do to reflection.
Image
-10 dB : 10 times reduction in signal strength
-20 dB : 100 times reduction in signal strength
-30 dB : 1000 times reduction in signal strength
Thanks to RAM and shaping F-22 RCS is between 1000-10000 times smaller than your average conventional fighters, that something you simply can’t achieve with IR signature reduction
Offline

garrya

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 646
  • Joined: 25 Dec 2015, 12:43

Unread post25 Nov 2018, 13:36

zero-one wrote:Okay, we can agree that the F-22 has a reduced IR signature right,

Yes

zero-one wrote:We also know that a missile, any missile, including the Aim-9X, takes time before locking on.
So wouldn't it make sense for the 9X to take longer to lock on a target with a reduced IR signature than your average 4th gen target?

Shorter range ,not longer time
zero-one wrote:Even as early as then simulating the 9X was already practiced, why would we even assume that they would stop doing that in RedFlag 2007 and resort to using Radar guided weapons at close range against the F-22.

What if it was BFM test ?
BVR test ?
Also isn’t the ACM lạck ir sensor
Offline

zero-one

Elite 1K

Elite 1K

  • Posts: 1862
  • Joined: 23 Jul 2013, 16:19
  • Location: New Jersey

Unread post25 Nov 2018, 15:36

garrya wrote:Shorter range ,not longer time


Okay, maybe, but we don't know that for sure. Tailgate said that in WVR their "inability to target" him was key.
Campbell said he couldn't lock on even with the Raptor right in front of him..
All these point to the F-22 having significant VLO capabilities against IR sensors even when within visual range.

So back to the original argument.
You placed the both the F-35 and J-20 atop the F-22 because of the lack of IRST.
If they are having difficulty detecting the F-22 even at WVR what are the chances they detect it at BVR?

I say small, possible, because Typhoon pilots did claim to detect F-22s at BVR using Pirate but we don't know the details to that. The F-22 may have been using extensive AB at that time, it may have also been a sporadic detection and nothing more. We don't know.

Anyway, so far the combination of extreme altitude, speed, stealth and sensors which is a package unmatched by any aircraft to date, puts the F-22 on top of my BVR platform list.
Offline

zero-one

Elite 1K

Elite 1K

  • Posts: 1862
  • Joined: 23 Jul 2013, 16:19
  • Location: New Jersey

Unread post25 Nov 2018, 16:01

Old post but heres the list by Hush kit which is a blog, but I would say one of the better researched blogs out there.


https://hushkit.net/2016/04/24/the-top- ... s-of-2016/

10. Lockheed Martin F-16E/F


A great sensor suite, including a modern AESA and comprehensive defensive aids systems is combined with advanced weapons and a proven platform; a small radar cross section also helps. However, the type is let down by mediocre ‘high and fast’ performance, fewer missiles than its rivals and a smaller detection range than some of its larger rivals. With Conformal Fuel Tanks its agility is severely limited.

Armament for A2A mission: 4 x AIM-120C-7, 2 x AIM-9X (1 x 20-mm cannon.).

9. Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet



Well equipped with a great defensive system and excellent weapons the Super Hornet has much to offer. It is happiest at lower speeds and altitudes making it a fearsome dogfighter, but is less capable at the BVR mission; a mediocre high-speed high-altitude performance let it down, as does a pedestrian climb rate and acceleration at higher speeds. The touch screen cockpit has disadvantages, as switches and buttons can be felt ‘blind’ and do not require ‘heads-down’ use. The much-touted AN/APG-79 AESA radars introduced on Block II aircraft has proved unreliable and has enormous development problems. One scathing report said ‘ …operational testing does not demonstrate a statistically significant difference in mission accomplishment between F/A-18E/F aircraft equipped with AESA and those equipped with the legacy radar.’ Read an exclusive interview with a Super Hornet pilot here.

Armament for A2A mission: Super Hornet (high drag ‘Christmas tree’) 12 x AIM-120, realistic = 6 x AIM-120C-7 + 2/4 AIM-9X ) (1 x 20-mm cannon)

8. Sukhoi Su-30MK and Shenyang J-11B

Until the arrival of the Su-35, the most capable official members of Sukhoi’s ‘Flanker’ family were the export Su-30MKs. Agile and well-armed they are formidable opponents. Armed with ten missiles the Su-30 has an impressive combat persistence and is able to fly impressively long distance missions. The radar is a large, long-ranged PESA (featuring some elements of an AESA) and Indian aircraft carry particularly good Israeli jamming pods. The type has proved itself superior to both the RAF’s Tornado F.Mk 3 and USAF’s F-15C in exercises, though the degree of dominance over the F-15C is marginal to the point that superior training, tactics and C3 saw the US lord over the type in later exercises. The pilot workload is higher than in later Western designs, the engines demanding to maintain and the vast airframe has a large radar cross section.

A2A armament: 6 x R-77, 4 x R-73 (1 x 30-mm cannon)



Shenyang J-11B

The Chinese pirate version of the ‘Flanker’ features a reduced radar cross section and improved weapons and avionics. With the latest Type 1474 radar (with a 100 miles + range) and the highly-regarded PL-12 active radar AAM, it is an impressive fighter.

6 x PL-12, 4 x PL-10 (or R-73E) + ( 1 x 30-mm cannon)



7. Mikoyan MiG-31BM



The Russian air force is currently updating its MiG-31 fleet to BM standard. The new model features an updated avionics suite further sharpening the teeth of this unique machine. The fastest modern fighter in the world, with a top speed of Mach 2.83, the MiG-31 offers some unique capabilities. Until the arrival of the Meteor missile in April 2016, no fighter had a longer air-to-air weapon than the type’s huge R-33S, which can engage targets well over 100 miles away. Designed to hunt in packs of four or more aircraft the type can sweep vast swathes of airspace, sharing vital targeting information by data-link with other aircraft. The enormous PESA radar was the first ever fitted to a fighter. The type is marred by a mountainous radar cross section and poor agility at lower speeds. More on the MiG-31 here and here.

4 x R-33, 2 x R-40TD (1 x 23-mm cannon)

6. McDonnell Douglas F-15C (V) 3 Eagle/Boeing F-15SG Eagle



That the Eagle has jumped two places in our rating is not due to any improvements in the design since 2013, but the fact that we have greater knowledge of how well it has been performing in international exercises. Though the famously one-sided score sheet of the F-15 should be taken with a pinch of salt (Israeli air-to-air claims are often questionable to say the least), the F-15 has proved itself a tough, kickass fighter that can be depended on. It lacks the agility (certainly at lower speeds) of its Russian counterparts, but in its most advanced variants has an enormously capable radar in the APG-63(V)3. The F-15 remains the fastest Western fighter to have ever entered service (the often quoted M2.54 speed is exaggerated, but it will get up to M2.3), and is currently the fastest non-Russian frontline aircraft of any kind in the world. The type is let down by a giant radar cross section, a massive infra-red signature and an inferior high altitude performance to a newer generation of fighters. Typhoon pilots who have fought it describe it as a challenging threat, Hornet pilots have noted that it is almost impossible to defeat at long ranges.

A2A armament: 6 x AIM-120C-7, 2 x AIM-9X (1 x 20-mm cannon)

5. Sukhoi Su-35S

348374-admin.jpgRussia’s latest operational fighter was not in service at the time of our last list – today it very much is and is an impressive machine. The Su-35S were deployed in Syria in 2016 to provide air cover for Russian forces engaged in anti-rebel/ISIL attacks. The Su-35 is even more powerful than the Su-30M series and boasts improved avionics and man-machine interface. More on the Su-35 can be found here.

A2A armament: 6 x R-77, 4 x R-73 (1 x 30-mm cannon)


4. Dassault Rafale
[/[b]
b]


The Rafale has leapt from position 7 to position 3 thanks to the new RBE2 AESA radar. The Rafale has great agility, one of the lowest radar cross sections of a ‘conventional’ aircraft and its defensive systems are generally considered superior to those of its arch-rival, the Typhoon. It falls down in its main armament, the MICA, which is generally considered to have a lower maximum range than later model AMRAAMs. It has a little less poke than the Typhoon in terms of thrust-to-weight ratio leading some potential customers in hot countries to demand an engine upgrade. It has yet to be integrated with a helmet cueing system in operational service.

A2A armament: 6 x MICA (possibly 8 if required, though this has not been seen operationally) (one 30-mm cannon)

3. Eurofighter Typhoon

A high power-to-weight ratio, a large wing and a well designed cockpit put the Typhoon pilot in an advantageous position in a BVR engagement. Acceleration rates, climb rates (according to a German squadron leader it can out-climb a F-22) and agility at high speeds are exceptionally good. Pilot workload is very low compared to most rivals and the aircraft has proved reliable. The type will be the ‘last swinging disc in town’, as it will be among the last modern fighters to feature a mechanically scanned radar; the Captor radar may use an old fashioned technology but it still a highly-rated piece of kit with extremely impressive detection ranges. It has a smaller radar cross section than both the F-15 and Su-30 and superior high altitude performance to Rafale. Combat persistence is good and the AIM-132 ASRAAM of RAF aircraft are reported to have a considerable BVR capability.

A2A armament (RAF): 6 x AIM-120C-5, 2 x AIM-132 (1 x 27-mm cannon)



2. Saab Gripen C/D



In our original list from three years ago, the Gripen did not even make the top ten. Its dramatic jump to the number two position is due to one reason: the entry into operational service (in April 2016) of the MBDA Meteor missile. The Gripen is the first fighter in the world to carry the long-delayed Meteor. The Meteor outranges every Western weapon, and thanks to its ramjet propulsion (an innovation for air-to-air missiles) it has a great deal of energy, even at the outer extremes of its flight profile, allowing it to chase maneuvering targets at extreme ranges. Many air forces have trained for years in tactics to counter AMRAAM, but few know much about how to respond to the vast No Escape Zone of Meteor. This combined with a two-way datalink (allowing assets other than the firer to communicate with the missile), the aircraft’s low radar signature, and the Gripen’s pilot’s superb situational awareness makes the small Swedish fighter a particularly nasty threat to potential enemies.

4 x MBDA Meteor + 2 x IRIS-T (1 x 27-mm cannon)



1. Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor

Undisputed king of beyond-visual range air combat is the F-22 Raptor. Its superbly stealthy design means it is likely to remain undetected to enemy fighters, calmly despatching its hapless opponents. The type’s excellent AESA radar is world class, and its ‘low-probability of interception’ operation enables to see without being seen. When high-altitude limitations are not in place (due to safety concerns) the type fights from a higher perch than F-15s and F-16s, and is more frequently supersonic. High and fast missile shots give its AMRAAMs far greater reach and allow the type to stay out harm’s way. The F-22 is expensive, suffers from a poor radius of action for its size and has suffered a high attrition rate for a modern fighter.

6 x AIM-120C-5 + 2 x AIM-9M (1 x 20-mm cannon)


List is old (2016)
I wouldn't agree with everything but it has it's merits
Offline

garrya

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 646
  • Joined: 25 Dec 2015, 12:43

Unread post25 Nov 2018, 17:18

zero-one wrote:Okay, maybe, but we don't know that for sure. Tailgate said that in WVR their "inability to target" him was key.
Campbell said he couldn't lock on even with the Raptor right in front of him..
All these point to the F-22 having significant VLO capabilities against IR sensors even when within visual range.

Or they could refered to the radar (which is more likely) or they could have refered to the secret DIRCM on F-22 or F-22 used stealth advantage to get into a favorable position where Aim-9x seeker can’t reach, such as behind the aggressor ( old AIM-9X is LOBL)
zero-one wrote:So back to the original argument.
You placed the both the F-35 and J-20 atop the F-22 because of the lack of IRST.
If they are having difficulty detecting the F-22 even at WVR what are the chances they detect it at BVR?

But that is where we disagreed,i don’t believe that an IRST will have any issue detect and track F-22 at close range and i also believe that an IRST could track/detect F-22 from distance much longer than F-22 can use its radar to track a stealth aircraft.
Even if i adopt your hypothesis that F-22 can be near invisible to IR sensor somehow, EOTS still got a secondary optical sensor using visual light, and iam sure F-22 Isn’t invisible in visible light spectrum. Advanced EOTS has a third SWIR channel which is very similar to visual channel but can penetrate fog and humid air better.
Offline

zero-one

Elite 1K

Elite 1K

  • Posts: 1862
  • Joined: 23 Jul 2013, 16:19
  • Location: New Jersey

Unread post25 Nov 2018, 18:01

garrya wrote:Or they could refered to the radar (which is more likely)


This is actually less likely to me. WVR is the infrared sensor's domain, I'd even say that when you get to WVR ranges, radar becomes the secondary sensor, radar guided missiles become the secondary weapon.

In the famous first use of the Aim-9X in anger, it was the first weapon used in that fight. Only when it missed did Lt. Cmdr. Tremel decide to use AMRAAMs

So why would they keep using Radar guided weapons in WVR against an opponent that is more VLO against radar then against IR.

This is not the first time F-22's mopped the floor with 4th gens in air combat exercises.
as far as I know within visual range ACM is practiced in every air combat exercise. Red Flag, Maple Flag, Cobra Gold, there is always an ACM DACT simulation.

And in every single air combat exercise the F-22 always gets glowing reports with lopsided kill\loss ratios.

So are we going to suggest that everyone simply keeps using radar guided weapons in all of those exercises, no one ever thought of using the 9x against the F-22 in WVR DACT.

garrya wrote:or they could have refered to the secret DIRCM on F-22 or F-22 used stealth advantage to get into a favorable position where Aim-9x seeker can’t reach, such as behind the aggressor ( old AIM-9X is LOBL)


Thats borderline tin foil hat territory.
I mean I wish its true but thers no information supporting that

garrya wrote:Even if i adopt your hypothesis that F-22 can be near invisible to IR sensor somehow, EOTS still got a secondary optical sensor using visual light, and iam sure F-22 Isn’t invisible in visible light spectrum. Advanced EOTS has a third SWIR channel which is very similar to visual channel but can penetrate fog and humid air better.


Well that will make the F-35 better at hunting down Stealth aircraft, but when hunting any other kind of aircraft at BVR ranges, the F-22 will still have the upper hand
Offline

garrya

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 646
  • Joined: 25 Dec 2015, 12:43

Unread post25 Nov 2018, 18:28

zero-one wrote:This is actually less likely to me. WVR is the infrared sensor's domain, I'd even say that when you get to WVR ranges, radar becomes the secondary sensor, radar guided missiles become the secondary weapon.
In the famous first use of the Aim-9X in anger, it was the first weapon used in that fight. Only when it missed did Lt. Cmdr. Tremel decide to use AMRAAMs
So why would they keep using Radar guided weapons in WVR against an opponent that is more VLO against radar then against IR.

When i said radar, i meant fire control radar of the aircraft, you would be surprised at how often radars are used in close air combat. For infrared missile, there is a Seeker Enhanced Acquisistion Mode, where if you had your radar in ACM mode and doing a 30x20 degree scan (covering your HUD), the seeker of an AIM-9 could be slaved to it. So, instead of having to point your nose at the enemy, you “just” had to fly him into your HUD field of view. Once the radar locked up the right target, so did the missile, and you immediately got the assistance cues of range and relative velocity so you could see much more quickly whether you were in parameters for a good shot. If the radar can’t lock (generating firing solution )then you won’t know whether you will get a good shot or not even with seeker ringging
zero-one wrote:This is not the first time F-22's mopped the floor with 4th gens in air combat exercises.
as far as I know within visual range ACM is practiced in every air combat exercise. Red Flag, Maple Flag, Cobra Gold, there is always an ACM DACT simulation.

ACM exercise aren’t often practiced with HOBS missile ( may be with the exception of German mig-29 vs F-16 exchange exercrise)



zero-one wrote:Thats borderline tin foil hat territory.
I mean I wish its true but thers no information supporting that

Having DIRCM is far more possible than being invisible to infrared sensor, at least, it has been done many times for various airplane.
And the hypothesis that F-22 use stealth advantage to maneuver behind adversary is also far more plausible since it doesn’t require us to break any physics law
Offline

zero-one

Elite 1K

Elite 1K

  • Posts: 1862
  • Joined: 23 Jul 2013, 16:19
  • Location: New Jersey

Unread post26 Nov 2018, 07:55

garrya wrote: When i said radar, i meant fire control radar of the aircraft,


I'm aware of that, but using the fire control radar does not blind the IR missile's seeker. if the radar can't see the F-22 at close range, the IR seeker of the missile itself should still be able to make a lock.

garrya wrote:ACM exercise aren’t often practiced with HOBS missile ( may be with the exception of German mig-29 vs F-16 exchange exercrise)


This is certainly news to me, I'll need a link to be convinced by this.

Not using HOBS in ACM to practice certain offensive and defensive maneuvers is one thing, but not practicing against them at all makes the exercise unrealistic. So I would think that its only logical for air forces to have a hop where all capabilities of a threat aircraft are simulated.

Anyway, HOBS capability is useless when the IR seeker can't or has great difficulty seeing you.


garrya wrote:Having DIRCM is far more possible than being invisible to infrared sensor, at least,

Not invisible, just very difficult.
Offline

garrya

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 646
  • Joined: 25 Dec 2015, 12:43

Unread post26 Nov 2018, 08:27

zero-one wrote:I'm aware of that, but using the fire control radar does not blind the IR missile's seeker. if the radar can't see the F-22 at close range, the IR seeker of the missile itself should still be able to make a lock.

if radar can get a lock and you don't have IRST with LRF, then you may not know whether you are within envelope or not

zero-one wrote:This is certainly news to me, I'll need a link to be convinced by this

this is the common set up for air combat training
12.PNG

https://www.cnatra.navy.mil/local/docs/ ... /P-826.pdf

zero-one wrote:Anyway, HOBS capability is useless when the IR seeker can't or has great difficulty seeing you

Which frankly doesn't sound like it is possible at all against IIR sensors at close range, unless you are behind a cloud or behind enemy aircraft and their missile is LOBL

zero-one wrote:Not invisible, just very difficult.
[/quote]
To the point that IIR sensor can't see it at close range? i don't buy that.
Offline

zero-one

Elite 1K

Elite 1K

  • Posts: 1862
  • Joined: 23 Jul 2013, 16:19
  • Location: New Jersey

Unread post26 Nov 2018, 09:26

garrya wrote:
zero-one wrote:This is certainly news to me, I'll need a link to be convinced by this

this is the common set up for air combat training
https://www.cnatra.navy.mil/local/docs/ ... /P-826.pdf



This was a Naval introduction to the fundamentals of Basic fighter maneuvers.
some of the rules here are not what they use in high end air combat simulations to train seasoned veterans.

fulcrumflyer once said that their job as adversaries is to replicate threat capabilities as closely as possible.
So using Flanker tactics equipped with R-73s and HMCS is certainly part of that.

garrya wrote:Which frankly doesn't sound like it is possible at all against IIR sensors at close range, unless you are behind a cloud or behind enemy aircraft and their missile is LOBL


But then how does the F-22 and F-35 get so many lop sided WVR kills even when adversaries are equipped with these IIR and 9x simulated rounds with HMCS.
PreviousNext

Return to Modern Military Aircraft

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Exabot [Bot], Majestic-12 [Bot] and 16 guests