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Rafale M replacement program launched...

Unread postPosted: 24 Oct 2018, 07:53
by boff180
https://www.navyrecognition.com/index.p ... ogram.html

At Euronaval 2018, the largest naval defense exhibition which opened its doors today near Paris, French minister of the armed forces, Florence Parly, officially launched the aircraft carrier renewal program.


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(Image from cavok)

Re: Rafale M replacement program launched...

Unread postPosted: 24 Oct 2018, 08:12
by marsavian
Let's see how Dassault produce their traditionally good maneuverability out of this specification ;)

At Euronaval 2018, Dassault Aviation unveiled the NGF, next generation fighter, a stealthy, tail less next generation fighter currently at early design stage. The project is a collaboration between Dassault Aviation and Airbus. According to today's announcement, this next gen fighter will have to be carrier capable and will fly from Marine Nationale future aircraft carrier.


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https://www.navyrecognition.com/index.p ... rrier.html

Re: Rafale M replacement program launched...

Unread postPosted: 24 Oct 2018, 16:27
by vilters
If a 6th Gen pilot "needs" more then 3G? He's not worth to be in a 3th Gen airframe.

Call Scotty and have him beemed down back into WW2.

Re: Rafale M replacement program launched...

Unread postPosted: 24 Oct 2018, 22:01
by vilters
In another tread we are discussing a Europe 6th Gen fighter.

See? NO - GO. It does not work that way in Europe. The French are going solo. Pffft again.

Europe? An overpaid political playground empty paper box.

Re: Rafale M replacement program launched...

Unread postPosted: 24 Oct 2018, 22:27
by marsavian
The French are not going solo, they are just being defacto accepted as the Eurofighter 2 design head now that the UK is brexiting and therefore not even being considered for the role. This is what the French originally hoped for with Rafale, now they finally succeed. The mutual deal is that the Germans get to be the design head on Leopard 3 tank which the French will buy too.

p.s. Of course there must be a naval version of NGF like Rafale-M.

Re: Rafale M replacement program launched...

Unread postPosted: 25 Oct 2018, 04:10
by Corsair1963
Is the NGF even been funded yet???

Re: Rafale M replacement program launched...

Unread postPosted: 25 Oct 2018, 09:26
by weasel1962
Depends on how one defines funding.

Dassault has a model of the NGF which was shown a few days back at Euronaval 2018 (which I just noted Marsavian's post). France and Germany has already signed an agreement to work on the plane on June 19 following an earlier agreement in April between Dassault and Airbus. Intakes are still so squarish. No tail fin.

Re: Rafale M replacement program launched...

Unread postPosted: 25 Oct 2018, 15:19
by mixelflick
Never going to happen. Neither is the British Tempest.

Both are going to cost too much $, hit tons of developmental hurdles and suffer from small production runs. That all assumes its capabilities match or exceed those of the F-35, a questionable assumption IMO. These birds certainly aren't going to cost $80 million, that's for sure.

And I don't see much in the way of air to ground, or at least its not being talked about. To match the F-35, it's going to have to be air to everything, and that again is even more $. Let's also understand they'd be jumping from no stealth to at least a notional 5 + gen capability. We can all see how that's going with the PAK FA....

Re: Rafale M replacement program launched...

Unread postPosted: 25 Oct 2018, 20:13
by marsavian
Let's also understand they'd be jumping from no stealth to at least a notional 5 + gen capability. We can all see how that's going with the PAK FA....


The current stealth of a clean Typhoon/Rafale is in the same sub 1 sq m ballpark of Su-57 so they are not really jumping from *no* stealth from planes designed thirty years ago which had RCS reduction features built in their designs. As to weapons/avionics, probably a straight carry over from their predecessors. Could they cost too much, sure but that didn't stop the predecessors when your industrial offset is 100%, i.e. you are building them. There is no time pressure either, they will soldier on with Typhoon/Rafale until they are both ready. It probably doesn't matter to the Europeans if the end result is not as good as the F-35, just like the Pak-FA it will be persevered with for local industrial/political/independent reasons. Anyway Dassault and BAE have no trouble historically designing military planes at a reasonable price.

Re: Rafale M replacement program launched...

Unread postPosted: 25 Oct 2018, 21:03
by hythelday
I agree that not having a VLO airframe in the "portfolio" is not an insurmountable obstacle to designing one, especially to the BAe or Dassault who have plenty of experience otherwise. NG didn't have stealth experience before YF-23, but look what they banged out - wrist exercise material that some people on this very forum are still hell bent on reviving. LM never designed a supersonic STOVL airplane either (and no, F-35B is not a Yak clone), yet here we are.

Re: Rafale M replacement program launched...

Unread postPosted: 26 Oct 2018, 02:24
by geforcerfx
hythelday wrote: NG didn't have stealth experience before YF-23, but look what they banged out

:doh:
Look up B-2 bomber and tactict blue

Re: Rafale M replacement program launched...

Unread postPosted: 26 Oct 2018, 06:57
by hythelday
geforcerfx wrote:
hythelday wrote: NG didn't have stealth experience before YF-23, but look what they banged out

:doh:
Look up B-2 bomber and tactict blue


Well shoot, that is a major brain fart on my part. However I still believe it is possible to design a VLO fighter even if you haven't done one before. Maybe I should use Boeing example instead? After all, A-12 and X-32 didn't fail due to "unstealthiness".

Re: Rafale M replacement program launched...

Unread postPosted: 26 Oct 2018, 07:24
by weasel1962
Its costly and will cost the European taxpayers $$$. Same with Typhoon. However, that's not going to stop the program. Too many jobs at stake. Same reason why US builds the CVN at Newport. Its bloody costly and can be more cheaply built else where but guess what, its still built at Newport because that's supporting local industry. Same reasons why Japan is going ahead with its F-3. Its not going to be export competitive nor as technically capable as its peers, but guess what, neither was the Typhoon. Won't stop the local propaganda.

I'd leave my comments aside for the Tempest. The way the Brits manage defence (and the economy) today, its really unclear which of their feet they would decide to shoot next.

Re: Rafale M replacement program launched...

Unread postPosted: 26 Oct 2018, 12:01
by sferrin
hythelday wrote:
geforcerfx wrote:
hythelday wrote: NG didn't have stealth experience before YF-23, but look what they banged out

:doh:
Look up B-2 bomber and tactict blue


Well shoot, that is a major brain fart on my part. However I still believe it is possible to design a VLO fighter even if you haven't done one before. Maybe I should use Boeing example instead? After all, A-12 and X-32 didn't fail due to "unstealthiness".


Northrop also had a Have Blue competitor in the form of the XST.

XST.jpg


Boeing wasn't involved in the A-12, that was a McDonnell Douglas & General Dynamics product. General Dynamics, who's progenitor was Convair, the maker of this stealth aircraft:

kingfish4.jpg


kingfish5.jpg


During the ATF competition (which ultimately resulted in the F-22) there were seven entrants. Top four places? 1. Lockheed, 2. Northrop, 3. General Dynamics, 4. Boeing. So yeah, experience matters.

Re: Rafale M replacement program launched...

Unread postPosted: 26 Oct 2018, 15:57
by mixelflick
That looks about as good a conception as I've seen for PCA!!!

I realize it was for the ATF, but man - the flying wing layout and a few other particulars (looks like ENORMOUS engines) etc really jumped out at me. If I may, where did you find these photos?