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Re: Boeing wins MQ-25

Unread postPosted: 11 Sep 2018, 16:05
by zero-one
Can a contract be awarded just to keep industrial diversity.

For example Lockheed won the ATF program, they also won the JSF program and they have a great chance to win the T-X program. If they keep winning, Boeing may not be affected but the smaller sub contractors might go out of business.

Boeing is massive, but if their defense division stops making a profit at acceptable margins, it can be sold off to other companies (maybe Lockheed).

So what if this is also a consideration. conspiracy theories are around that its the reason why LM won the ATF program.
The YF-23 was better but Nothrop just bagged the ATB program (B-2) and the margin of superiority between the YF-22 and YF-23 was so slim that either one would be a winner anyway.

Of course this is all tin foil hat territory. But I was wondering if it had a certain merit to it

Re: Boeing wins MQ-25

Unread postPosted: 11 Sep 2018, 16:49
by sferrin
Wouldn't be the first time.

Re: Boeing wins MQ-25

Unread postPosted: 11 Sep 2018, 17:24
by zerion
Not exactly what you are talking about but that’s one the reasons that the Navy kept production of both LCS variants.

Re: Boeing wins MQ-25

Unread postPosted: 11 Sep 2018, 21:44
by XanderCrews
zero-one wrote:Can a contract be awarded just to keep industrial diversity.

For example Lockheed won the ATF program, they also won the JSF program and they have a great chance to win the T-X program. If they keep winning, Boeing may not be affected but the smaller sub contractors might go out of business.

Boeing is massive, but if their defense division stops making a profit at acceptable margins, it can be sold off to other companies (maybe Lockheed).

So what if this is also a consideration. conspiracy theories are around that its the reason why LM won the ATF program.
The YF-23 was better but Nothrop just bagged the ATB program (B-2) and the margin of superiority between the YF-22 and YF-23 was so slim that either one would be a winner anyway.

Of course this is all tin foil hat territory. But I was wondering if it had a certain merit to it


Boeing did nearly 50 percent of the work on the F-22. Defense world is incestuous A lot people don't realize this.


Our boy Solomon blogger went off an a rant about the Super Hornets IRST fuel tank being an F-35 killer blah blah "Boeing throws down the gauntlet!"

At no point did he realize the "LM Killing" pod was built by LM...

Re: Boeing wins MQ-25

Unread postPosted: 11 Sep 2018, 22:39
by sferrin
af_manufact.gif

Re: Boeing wins MQ-25

Unread postPosted: 12 Sep 2018, 03:29
by marauder2048
zero-one wrote:Can a contract be awarded just to keep industrial diversity.


Was there any evidence for CBARS *before* Boeing lost the LRS-B contract?

The complete lack of any announced LRIP strategy/quantity (which the Navy is
required to have at this point) or discussion about production schedules/fleet-wide deployment
is deeply suspicious.

In contrast, the Air Force announced all of the above for LRS-B before the contract was awarded.

Re: Boeing wins MQ-25

Unread postPosted: 12 Sep 2018, 08:34
by element1loop
marauder2048 wrote:The complete lack of any announced LRIP strategy/quantity (which the Navy is
required to have at this point) or discussion about production schedules/fleet-wide deployment
is deeply suspicious.


I took this article from mid-August to mean specifics on new systems will not be forthcoming from here.

Financial Accounts May Be “Modified” to Shield Classified Programs
Aug.15, 2018, by Steven Aftergood

https://fas.org/blogs/secrecy/2018/08/fasab-modified/

Re: Boeing wins MQ-25

Unread postPosted: 12 Sep 2018, 10:17
by zero-one
It's an inconvenient fact that the number of companies capable of competing in high end military contracts is getting smaller and smaller.

If I remember correctly, back in the ATF initial phase, there were 7 companies capable of making high end fighters in the US. Today how many are there, LM, Boeing, Northrop maybe, Can GD still make fighters?

Noticed that the T-X program has a lot of new comers. Hopefully these companies can grow to be major players for PCA. Competition can bring out the best in all of them.

Re: Boeing wins MQ-25

Unread postPosted: 12 Sep 2018, 16:54
by sferrin
zero-one wrote:It's an inconvenient fact that the number of companies capable of competing in high end military contracts is getting smaller and smaller.

If I remember correctly, back in the ATF initial phase, there were 7 companies capable of making high end fighters in the US. Today how many are there, LM, Boeing, Northrop maybe, Can GD still make fighters?


GD was bought by LM years ago. (The aircraft division, formerly Convair, anyway.) And northrop wouldn't be a "maybe". I'd put them ahead of Boeing, and it ain't close.

Re: Boeing wins MQ-25

Unread postPosted: 12 Sep 2018, 17:12
by zero-one
sferrin wrote:
GD was bought by LM years ago. (The aircraft division, formerly Convair, anyway.) And northrop wouldn't be a "maybe". I'd put them ahead of Boeing, and it ain't close.


Oh I thought only GD Forth Worth was acquired and GD itself still had fighter manufacturing capabilities. Is that not the case?

Anyway I know Northrop has it. But fact is, they don't have a single fighter in production today.
Sure they build components like the Radar and stuff but they're not the prime contractor for the fighter itself.
Can they still play with the big boys. On the other hand, their last fighter design the YF-23 looks like it can still make short work of almost anything flying today.

Boeing...well remember McDonnell Douglas is now Boeing. Arguably the most experienced jet fighter company ever. Pretty much any fighter they make becomes a juggernaut in the fighter world

Re: Boeing wins MQ-25

Unread postPosted: 12 Sep 2018, 20:42
by XanderCrews
zero-one wrote:Anyway I know Northrop has it. But fact is, they don't have a single fighter in production today.
Sure they build components like the Radar and stuff but they're not the prime contractor for the fighter itself.
Can they still play with the big boys.


Whats in a name? Boeing didn't have any fighters either until they bought McAir. "They didn't build that, someone else did that" NG is a major subcontractor and designer for both LM and Boeing and they are critical to both. they do more than "radars and stuff"?


Northrop Grumman enters full-rate production on F-35 fuselage


Northrop Grumman entered full-rate production on the F-35 Lightning II’s centre fuselage at its Palmdale, California facility in May in order to meet increasing order quantities from the Pentagon and international customers.

The company said the 400th centre fuselage was completed and delivered to F-35 prime contractor Lockheed Martin last month. Production of the 500th centre fuselage began the week of 18 June.

Situated on the edge of the Mojave Desert in California, the factory -- known as Building 401 on Site 4 of Plant 42 -- supplies fuselages for aircraft final assembly facilities in Fort Worth, Texas; Italy and Japan. An adjacent bay in the same building once was the final assembly site of the B-2A bomber. It sat empty during a media tour of the full facility in December 2015. During the latest tour of Building 401 in mid-June, Northrop officials refused to discuss the secret location of the B-21A bomber assembly site, but the former B-2A bay was walled off and not accessible.


Northrop reached a production rate of a centre fuselage every 1.5 days in the fourth quarter of 2017 and completed a total of 74 last year.


The manufacturer projects that it will complete 113 fuselages this year and it aims to produce 153 fuselages in 2019. At peak production the facility will produce a fuselage every 1.25 days.


https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... 35-449854/

Super Hornet:


https://www.mercurynews.com/2014/02/28/ ... er-hornet/

Re: Boeing wins MQ-25

Unread postPosted: 13 Sep 2018, 00:22
by marauder2048
element1loop wrote:
marauder2048 wrote:The complete lack of any announced LRIP strategy/quantity (which the Navy is
required to have at this point) or discussion about production schedules/fleet-wide deployment
is deeply suspicious.


I took this article from mid-August to mean specifics on new systems will not be forthcoming from here.

Financial Accounts May Be “Modified” to Shield Classified Programs
Aug.15, 2018, by Steven Aftergood

https://fas.org/blogs/secrecy/2018/08/fasab-modified/


I'm curious as to how you came to this conclusion. The policy isn't in effect and MQ-25 is
not at a particularly high level of classification.

Re: Boeing wins MQ-25

Unread postPosted: 13 Sep 2018, 03:17
by popcorn
An analysis of the risks for Boeing and the Navy in the MQ-25 program.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/frankkenda ... 9fb7424bbd

Re: Boeing wins MQ-25

Unread postPosted: 13 Sep 2018, 04:27
by element1loop
marauder2048 wrote:
element1loop wrote:
marauder2048 wrote:The complete lack of any announced LRIP strategy/quantity (which the Navy is
required to have at this point) or discussion about production schedules/fleet-wide deployment
is deeply suspicious.


I took this article from mid-August to mean specifics on new systems will not be forthcoming from here.

Financial Accounts May Be “Modified” to Shield Classified Programs
Aug.15, 2018, by Steven Aftergood

https://fas.org/blogs/secrecy/2018/08/fasab-modified/


I'm curious as to how you came to this conclusion. The policy isn't in effect and MQ-25 is
not at a particularly high level of classification.


I read it as an indication of the desire to obscure as much as possible about spending on new systems or upgrades to existing systems in order to remove specifics from open sources. I understand there's a process to go through to put it into effect. Given that intent a constriction on information flow is to be expected (and already been announced with respect to USAF engagement with the public).

Re: Boeing wins MQ-25

Unread postPosted: 13 Sep 2018, 13:22
by sferrin
zero-one wrote:
sferrin wrote:
GD was bought by LM years ago. (The aircraft division, formerly Convair, anyway.) And northrop wouldn't be a "maybe". I'd put them ahead of Boeing, and it ain't close.


Oh I thought only GD Forth Worth was acquired and GD itself still had fighter manufacturing capabilities. Is that not the case?


GD Fort Worth WAS GD's fighter capability.

zero-one wrote:Anyway I know Northrop has it. But fact is, they don't have a single fighter in production today.
Sure they build components like the Radar and stuff but they're not the prime contractor for the fighter itself.
Can they still play with the big boys. On the other hand, their last fighter design the YF-23 looks like it can still make short work of almost anything flying today.

Boeing...well remember McDonnell Douglas is now Boeing. Arguably the most experienced jet fighter company ever. Pretty much any fighter they make becomes a juggernaut in the fighter world


Their ATF entry (McDonnel Douglas' that is) came in 5th, behind Lockheed, Northrop, General Dynamics, and Boeing.