F-15X: USAF Seems Interested

Military aircraft - Post cold war aircraft, including for example B-2, Gripen, F-18E/F Super Hornet, Rafale, and Typhoon.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post21 Mar 2019, 00:52

The Pentagon's Watchdog Is Investigating Whether the Acting Defense Secretary Boosted Boeing

By W.J. Hennigan


Updated: March 20, 2019 3:49 PM ET

The Department of Defense Office of Inspector General confirmed it has launched an investigation into whether Acting Secretary of Defense Patrick Shanahan has violated any ethics rules by promoting his former employer Boeing while serving in the Trump Administration.


The investigation comes a week after a government watchdog group, called Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington (CREW), wrote a nine-page complaint to the Pentagon’s inspector general urging the agency to scrutinize the relationship. At issue is whether Shanahan pushed the Pentagon to buy more Boeing-made F-15X fighter jets, which the Air Force does not want, and whether he criticized Boeing-rival Lockheed Martin Corp. during government meetings.


http://time.com/5555186/patrick-shanaha ... ics-probe/
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Corsair1963

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Unread post21 Mar 2019, 00:53

You can count on the Democrats milking this for every mile too! :shock:
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firebase99

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Unread post21 Mar 2019, 01:00

I say bring back the Aardvark!!! Stealth that sucker up...call it the SHardvark!
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marauder2048

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Unread post21 Mar 2019, 01:41

marsavian wrote:
marauder2048 wrote:And of course this again misses the main point: the big SLEP of the F-15Cs which was to start this year.

That was a truly low cost approach to the problem.


Could you provide a past reference to that as I was not aware of anything but the F-15C/D Longeron SLEP being authorized which is still referenced as being funded in the FY2020 budget request as I quoted earlier.

viewtopic.php?p=414671#p414671


From The FY19 Budget (Aircraft Mods)

8805 / F-15 C/D SLEP Wings (Service Life Extension) -> FY2020 $99 million

In the FY2020 budget it's zero'ed out.
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XanderCrews

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Unread post21 Mar 2019, 01:55

vilters wrote:
XanderCrews wrote:
How can you claim to be in fleet management but not understand the basics?


If I eat one bread a day, I have to buy one bread a day. :devil:



How can you reasonably compare buying bread daily for yourself to management of whole fleets of airplanes over decades for an entire air force?
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Corsair1963

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Unread post21 Mar 2019, 02:38

marauder2048 wrote:
8805 / F-15 C/D SLEP Wings (Service Life Extension) -> FY2020 $99 million

In the FY2020 budget it's zero'ed out.


They canceled the EPAWSS for the F-15C. So, hardly surprising they would canceled the SLEP for the Wings.


Honestly, the F-15C is going to be retired shortly one way or the other. Only real question is will it be replaced by more F-35A's or F-15EX's?
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Corsair1963

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Unread post21 Mar 2019, 04:12

What aircraft does the US Air Force need to beat China and Russia? This new study has an answer.

By: Valerie Insinna


QUOTE:

The fighter force

Should the Air Force buy the F-15X from Boeing?

The study gives an unambiguous answer of “no,” stating that spending its resources on new F-15s could take away precious funding away from the service’s next-generation fighter, which the Air Force needs to expedite and begin buying as soon as possible.


The F-15X, while a capable “fourth-generation-plus aircraft,” will not be able to survive the more contested battlespace of the future, the assessment stated, adding that “the Air Force should consider replacing some retiring F-15C/Ds with modified F-35As as a bridge to its future air superiority family of systems."


The study prioritizes the development of a new sixth-generation fighter, known as Penetrating Counter Air, or PCA, as well as hastening to a procurement rate of 70 F-35As per year.

https://www.defensenews.com/air/2019/03 ... an-answer/
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marauder2048

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Unread post21 Mar 2019, 06:12

Corsair1963 wrote:
marauder2048 wrote:
8805 / F-15 C/D SLEP Wings (Service Life Extension) -> FY2020 $99 million

In the FY2020 budget it's zero'ed out.


They canceled the EPAWSS for the F-15C. So, hardly surprising they would canceled the SLEP for the Wings.


Honestly, the F-15C is going to be retired shortly one way or the other. Only real question is will it be replaced by more F-35A's or F-15EX's?


The DODIG said:

"The quantity decrease of the F-15C EPAWSS production units and the removal of funds occurred because the DCS AF/A5/8 decided to use F-15C EPAWSS procurement funds to develop a higher priority air superiority program"

but

"an ACC official stated that he has requested restoration of (F-15C) EPAWSS
procurement funds in the FY 2020 budget request; [therefore, these funds were
not in the FY 2019 budget request];"

That was in the FY19 budget but so was the wing SLEP.

In the RFI for the E-Wing re-winging of the F-15C/D the Air Force specified that the wing had to be compatible with EPAWSS.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post21 Mar 2019, 06:52

marauder2048 wrote:
The DODIG said:

"The quantity decrease of the F-15C EPAWSS production units and the removal of funds occurred because the DCS AF/A5/8 decided to use F-15C EPAWSS procurement funds to develop a higher priority air superiority program"

but

"an ACC official stated that he has requested restoration of (F-15C) EPAWSS
procurement funds in the FY 2020 budget request; [therefore, these funds were
not in the FY 2019 budget request];"

That was in the FY19 budget but so was the wing SLEP.

In the RFI for the E-Wing re-winging of the F-15C/D the Air Force specified that the wing had to be compatible with EPAWSS.


Neither would be needed as the F-15C's are going to be retired. Either replaced by the F-15EX and/or F-35A....
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Unread post21 Mar 2019, 14:32

sferrin wrote:
mixelflick wrote:
chucky2 wrote:I wonder if this is some kind of strategery to get LM to reduce costs on F-35. We can always sell the X's to Israel...or Canada, when the world's stock of Hornets runs out.


I proposed the F-15X for Canada in the Politics section, and was summarily crucified for it.


I've been saying the same for years. (Assuming they didn't go for the F-35.) You don't need stealth to patrol borders and turn away bombers.


Right. Yet as I said, I was crucified for it LOL.

Will it be expensive? Sure. But then again, anything worthwhile is going to be expensive - even Gripen. If expense were the sole criteria though, the F-35 would have already been selected. By the time they actually pull the trigger, it should be down to around 80 million/copy. Instead, we've seen a rash of illogical decisions. So IMO, anything's possible.

New build F-15EX's seem to fit Canadian requirement nicely. Big radar to cover their big country, massive air to air loadout. Can carry a lot of weapons to a very high altitude. Persistence, particularly with the F-15EX's CFT's. The fastest mission computer to date. Stealthy? No, but you don't need it to defend Canada. Two crew members to allow for "swing" role capability. Which means in a pinch they can fulfill their NATO obligations.

Yes, they'll have to convert to a new jet. Yes, it might cost more per flight hour than a legacy F-18. But it will cost less per flight hour than the F-35, and built to a 20,000hr lifespan. This fits well too, as Canada has a long history of flying the wings off their jets, much moreso than other countries do.

Personally, I hope they buy the F-35. But the F-15EX would also be a fine addition.Better than any other jet in the competition IMO (Rafale, Typhoon, SH, Gripen etc.)
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XanderCrews

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Unread post21 Mar 2019, 20:01

chucky2 wrote:I wonder if this is some kind of strategery to get LM to reduce costs on F-35. We can always sell the X's to Israel...or Canada, when the world's stock of Hornets runs out.


The US is going to spend billions of more dollars and run a 2 year test program to cert the F-15EX all in order to pressure LM to save money, all while officially preaching that the F-15X has no bearing on the F-35?

:|


sferrin wrote:I've been saying the same for years. (Assuming they didn't go for the F-35.) You don't need stealth to patrol borders and turn away bombers.



Canada fights beyond its own borders. in fact it fights almost exclusively beyond its own borders moreover Russia sends fighters and fighter escorts for its bombers to test NORAD as well.

The North American Aerospace Defense Command says in a statement that two F-22 Raptor fighter jets identified and intercepted two Russian TU-95 Bear bombers at 6 p.m. Alaska time on Tuesday.

The bombers were accompanied by two Russian Su-35 Flanker fighter jets.
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XanderCrews

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Unread post21 Mar 2019, 20:41

mixelflick wrote:
Right. Yet as I said, I was crucified for it LOL.



And rightly so

Will it be expensive? Sure. But then again, anything worthwhile is going to be expensive - even Gripen. If expense were the sole criteria though, the F-35 would have already been selected. By the time they actually pull the trigger, it should be down to around 80 million/copy. Instead, we've seen a rash of illogical decisions. So IMO, anything's possible.



Again the sticker F-15E price is simply too much. Just saying "well they've been dumb before, so they might be dumb again" isn't an argument.

Besides isn't Canada in a bloodfeud with Boeing?

If cost didnt matter Canada would have bought Interim Super Hornets but they (somehow) got sticker shock. What planet do you think an F-15E or F-15EX will costs less than a Super Hornet?


New build F-15EX's seem to fit Canadian requirement nicely. Big radar to cover their big country, massive air to air loadout. Can carry a lot of weapons to a very high altitude.


Please note here, you're confusing what you THINK Canada's requirements are, vs what they actually officially are. The RCAF's requirements are basically 5th generation F-35. They couldn't outright say "F-35" because that wouldn't be "fair." The Requirements are classified, but with what we know, all the requirements are things only F-35 can do. For example we don't know what the exact LO requirements for Canada are, but we know there indeed LO requirements, and the threshold is at such a level that they exlcuded the Super Hornet. So I'm guess the F-15 with ZERO probably won't make the cut.

This is the same problem on every Canadian F-35/CF-18 replacement thread in every corner of the internet. Someone comes in and inserts WHAT THEY THINK Canada's requirements SHOULD be in their OPINION, and then confuse that opinion with the reality of what Canada's actual written and official requirements are based on all their SMEs, pilots, force structure, operational requirements, national strategy, etc etc. add that to the fact that they've been in the JSF program for over 20 F**king years. That might be what we call a "clue" For some reason the Internet thinks Canada just stumbled into a decades long fighter program with no inkling of what they needed.

Everyone thinks they know more than the RCAF about Canadian Air Force needs...

:drool:
Canada big! Need Gas!
Canada scared bomber! Need big Radar!
Canada never leave Canada!
Canada COLD! Canada need 2 engine!
:drool:

And its a helluva lot more complicated than that.

F-35 is as needed for Canadians as it is for Belgians, as it is for Israelis, or Italians, or Aussies or Norwegians and for all the same reasons, because guess what? Canada is going to deploy. Like they always do and fight in the same environments as everyone else ---Unless they buy something else in which case they'll ride the bench and be useless

Even Neutral Sweden deployed against Libya. SWEDEN. DEPLOYED.

Persistence, particularly with the F-15EX's CFT's. The fastest mission computer to date. Stealthy? No, but you don't need it to defend Canada.


And this is why you were crucified. Not only do you need LO in expeditionary warfare, you need it in Air confrontations over friendly territory too.


Why does the US deploy F-22s for NORAD? Why will we have F-35s doing NORAD in Alaska as well?


Two crew members to allow for "swing" role capability. Which means in a pinch they can fulfill their NATO obligations.


https://www.thestar.com/politics/federa ... ances.html

They're so desperate for personnel they can't even keep up with air shows.

Yes, they'll have to convert to a new jet. Yes, it might cost more per flight hour than a legacy F-18.


Ya think?

But it will cost less per flight hour than the F-35,


Not a F**kin chance in hell.

and built to a 20,000hr lifespan. This fits well too, as Canada has a long history of flying the wings off their jets, much moreso than other countries do.


The lifespan is utterly irrelevant if you're flying an obsolete airplane. If I offered you an F-4D with the potential for 25000 hours, would you buy a fleet of them? why not?

Canada will be retiring the CF-18 replacement in the 2060s (at a minimum.) The USAF is saying 4th generation is done in 2028.


Personally, I hope they buy the F-35. But the F-15EX would also be a fine addition.Better than any other jet in the competition IMO (Rafale, Typhoon, SH, Gripen etc.)


No it really wouldn't. and not to pile on excessively, but i'm utterly shocked at some of the people here who think an F-15 with more missiles, FBW, some new avionics and a new cockpit are somehow comparable to a 5th gen. Even the much maligned F-15 Silent Eagle, played with Low Observability-- it looked like it tried at least, creating little compartments for its AAMs. An SH actually has a solid Gen 4.5 background and has actual Radar Signature reduction to go along with everything else new on it. speaking very broadly F-15EX is an improved F-15E. You reserve the right to slay me if I'm wrong, but its an upgraded F-15E. Its still a 4th gen airplane.

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills because if someone came in here and suggested F-15E (Or F-15SE and some indeed did) as a solid F-35 substitute all these years they would have been roundly criticized and told there is no substitute for a 5th gen F-35, but add an "X" to the end of that "F-15E" and suddenly its "yeah I mean you don't really need 5th generation stuff, its just border patrol anyway" Really??
Last edited by XanderCrews on 21 Mar 2019, 21:05, edited 2 times in total.
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Unread post21 Mar 2019, 20:50

mixelflick wrote:Yes, they'll have to convert to a new jet. Yes, it might cost more per flight hour than a legacy F-18. But it will cost less per flight hour than the F-35, and built to a 20,000hr lifespan.


Um unless there's been an update on this, the endlessly repeated 20,000 life figure is based on Tyler Rogoway saying Boeing said so. Not an official statement. (Maybe Boeing has officially stated that the F-15EX's will have 20,000 flight hours by now, I haven't really kept up.) He also said that the F-15EX will cost much less than what the F-35 is projected to ever cost, and then we find out later that they're selling it for $80 apiece when the F-35 is projected to reach that in a few years. Actually they're selling it for something like $1.1 billion for 8 planes so $137.5 million apiece, or, alternately, $80 million a plane but $460 million to upgrade/change a line that Tyler said was ready to go "because other countries already paid for the development".

So it's not as if this 20,000 flight hour figure is exactly set in stone.
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XanderCrews

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Unread post21 Mar 2019, 21:00

vanshilar wrote:
mixelflick wrote:Yes, they'll have to convert to a new jet. Yes, it might cost more per flight hour than a legacy F-18. But it will cost less per flight hour than the F-35, and built to a 20,000hr lifespan.


Um unless there's been an update on this, the endlessly repeated 20,000 life figure is based on Tyler Rogoway saying Boeing said so. Not an official statement. (Maybe Boeing has officially stated that the F-15EX's will have 20,000 flight hours by now, I haven't really kept up.) He also said that the F-15EX will cost much less than what the F-35 is projected to ever cost, and then we find out later that they're selling it for $80 apiece when the F-35 is projected to reach that in a few years. Actually they're selling it for something like $1.1 billion for 8 planes so $137.5 million apiece, or, alternately, $80 million a plane but $460 million to upgrade/change a line that Tyler said was ready to go "because other countries already paid for the development".

So it's not as if this 20,000 flight hour figure is exactly set in stone.


Image

Tyler wouldn't just do that would he? Say its "ready to go" but "forget that the USAF has to do 2 years of testing first to certify it? and wouldn't see their half dozen F-15EXs until 2023 at a minimum?? Would Tyler play fast and lose with the price? or whats included based on which options are looked at?
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marsavian

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Unread post21 Mar 2019, 21:04

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills because if someone came in here and suggested F-15E (Or F-15SE and some indeed did) as a solid F-35 substitute all these years they would have been roundly criticized and told there is no substitute for a 5th gen F-35, but add an "X" to the end of that "F-15E" and suddenly its "yeah I mean you don't really need 5th generation stuff, its just border patrol anyway" Really??


F-15EX just takes a different approach to survivability, EW rather than stealth, like the Gripen-E. It's a crude way of doing it as you will announce your presence every time with your RCS. However F-15EX will able to jam not just from its AESA but from specific transmitters in EPAWSS giving it 360 jam capability so it's evolved beyond the legacy F-15E.
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