Russian UAV/UCAV developments

Military aircraft - Post cold war aircraft, including for example B-2, Gripen, F-18E/F Super Hornet, Rafale, and Typhoon.
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popcorn

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Unread post19 Sep 2018, 15:18

babybat{}.net wrote:
popcorn wrote:But....but...but... what about the 6gen jet that's coming out next? :devil:


Unfortunately, I have no right to provide any information(
Appearance will be declassified after the first flight, but some information you get much earlier. I think that in 5-7 years it will be possible to conduct some discussions on this topic

Good luck finding the "competence and experience™ in 5-7 years then...
"When a fifth-generation fighter meets a fourth-generation fighter—the [latter] dies,”
CSAF Gen. Mark Welsh
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knowan

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Unread post19 Sep 2018, 16:41

babybat{}.net wrote:Unfortunately, I have no right to provide any information(
Appearance will be declassified after the first flight, but some information you get much earlier. I think that in 5-7 years it will be possible to conduct some discussions on this topic


Ah, the old 'imply you have access to classified information to appear credible on an internet forum' trick.
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mixelflick

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Unread post20 Sep 2018, 14:50

Nice pic of that carrier, proves my point nicely. See the red stars on those wings? It's Russian, doesn't matter where its built. It's carrying Russian aircraft. Speaking of which, the SU-33 is already a 20 year old design. I know of no plans to update/modernize it. Perhaps you do. If so, please share.

BTW, where's the navalised PAK FA that we've been told is in the pipeline? LOL

I may not have classified info on the PAK FA, but India does/did. And they pulled out of the program. What does this say? That it's an incredibly capable world beater, so advanced beyond the SU-35 they.... won't be mass producing it? Something doesn't add up, and you can't reconcile both points of view.

Projects in the USSR that went nowhere? Sure...

YAK 141
VTOL Mig-21
Berkut
Mig I.44
Buran
Caspian Sea Monster (my personal favorite)
All sitting in museums and/or rotting in fields

Shall I keep going?
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element1loop

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Unread post20 Sep 2018, 16:52

Image
Accel + Alt + VLO + DAS + MDF + Radial Distance = LIFE . . . Always choose Stealth
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babybat{}.net

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Unread post21 Sep 2018, 22:36

mixelflick wrote:Nice pic of that carrier, proves my point nicely. See the red stars on those wings?


Soviet AF and Russian ASF had a different stars..
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mixelflick wrote:It's Russian, doesn't matter where its built.


It was never built. The ship was dismantled on the slipway by order of the Prime Minister of independent Ukraine in 1992.

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mixelflick wrote:Speaking of which, the SU-33 is already a 20 year old design. I know of no plans to update/modernize it. Perhaps you do. If so, please share.


It was a Soviet project. In connection with the collapse of the USSR, the program was closed, like all other aircraft carrier programs.

Partial modernization of the su-33 was held a few years ago under the program Gefest.

Image

mixelflick wrote:BTW, where's the navalised PAK FA that we've been told is in the pipeline? LOL


There are no plans to build aircraft carriers in Russia for the next 10 years. Accordingly, work on the creation of the navy version of the su-57 is also not conducted.

mixelflick wrote:I may not have classified info on the PAK FA, but India does/did. And they pulled out of the program. What does this say? That it's an incredibly capable world beater, so advanced beyond the SU-35 they.... won't be mass producing it? Something doesn't add up, and you can't reconcile both points of view.


India is also not interested in the su-35 programme. So it has nothing to do with comparing the capabilities of the su-35 and su-57.

mixelflick wrote:Projects in the USSR that went nowhere? Sure...


Russia and the USSR are different countries with different economic and production capabilities.

mixelflick wrote:YAK 141


The program was closed in connection with the cancellation of the carriers under them - 1143, 1143.2, 1143.3 and 1143.4.

mixelflick wrote:VTOL Mig-21


It was an experimental machine for testing solutions, which were subsequently applied to the Yak-38

mixelflick wrote:Berkut


As I wrote earlier, it was a program to develop a navy fighter. In connection with the elimination of the aircraft carier program, the machine was used as a flying laboratory.

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mixelflick wrote:Mig I.44


About this machine I wrote in a previous post. Originally a stillborn project.

mixelflick wrote:Buran


It is a separate topic for discussion. Very long discussion)
It was part of soviet star wars project, that died with USSR.


mixelflick wrote:Caspian Sea Monster (my personal favorite)


Despite its size, it is only an experimental device. The name of the KM does not mean the Caspian monster ("Kaspiyskiy Monster"), but the ship-mockup ("Korablj-Maket"). On the basis of tests developed a prototype combat ekranoplane "Lunj".

Image

However, due to the development of new radiolocations algorithms, it became possible to detect low-flying targets at a considerable distance and the program was closed. Perspective seen for new 3M+ class supersonic anti-ship missiles air and ship-based with active "stealth" system and hypersonic missiles.

mixelflick wrote:Shall I keep going?


All of the examples you gave, with the exception of 1.44, were not programs to create a main land-based fighter. And 1.44 was only a technology demonstrator. The prototype of the fighter was to be the project 1.42, and serial fighter was to be 1.46, the further development of which we see in the form of j-20.
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juretrn

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Unread post21 Sep 2018, 23:28

"Caspian Sea Monster" is a name given by the CIA when they saw the thing in spysat photos as they had no official Soviet designation to go by.
Russia stronk
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milosh

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Unread post22 Sep 2018, 12:07

mixelflick wrote:When you fail to mass produce a fighter, it was an experiment. PAK FA's experiment just got a little further along than the Mig I.44. Russian aviation is littered with such experiments, most of which have birds roosting in their rotting airframes today. Put it this way: There's a lot better chance PAK FA will wind up in a museum, vs. equipping front line Russian units and replacing Flankers (which offer about 90% of the capability, for a much lower price)..


So Su-35 with PESA radar without useful super cruise capability and with MUCH higher RCS is 90% of Su-57?

But I agree with you Su-57 will not replace Su-27, that is Su-35 role. Su-57 is probable MiG-31 replacement, it doesn't have MiG-31 top speed but everything else it do much better, plus it is lot smaller target and it is multi role fighter not just interceptor.
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Unread post22 Sep 2018, 16:23

You are playing games with words babybat, and you know it..

"India is also not interested in the su-35 programme. So it has nothing to do with comparing the capabilities of the su-35 and su-57."

You left out the TINY detail that India was INVESTING in the SU-57, and they've been briefed multiple times as to its capabilities. The Indians cited shoddy workmanship, an inferior engine and less than acceptable stealth (among other things) for pulling out. Of course they have no interest in the SU-35, they already fly an advanced Flanker derivative - the SU-30MKI. And perhaps because of that, they have no interest in the SU-35 (reasons like less than reliable engines and high lifecycle costs that tend to offset a lower sticker price vs. western jets).

My God man, where does the spin end? Why can't you just admit the PAK FA didn't materialize as the Russians hoped? It's pretty clear to any objective outside observer it's going nowhere fast. You gave it a good go, OK? Beautiful airframe I'll give you that. But a solid airframe and some airshow tricks does not a 5th gen fighter make. The rest of your examples are similar - playing games with words.

It's sad but mildly amusing. Less so however, every time you go through this "but, but, but..." exercise...
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Unread post23 Sep 2018, 06:10

mixelflick wrote:You are playing games with words babybat, and you know it..


I wasn't even going to. Sorry about that.

mixelflick wrote:You left out the TINY detail that India was INVESTING in the SU-57, and they've been briefed multiple times as to its capabilities. The Indians cited shoddy workmanship, an inferior engine and less than acceptable stealth (among other things) for pulling out.


Only Su-57 stage 1 capabilities.
Even in open sources there was information about which prototype of the PAK-FA was to be sent to India as a prototype of the FGFA.
Russia tried to sell su-57 stage 1 to India as FGFA, and the received finances were directed to the implementation of the stage 2 program for its own ASF. India was not satisfied with this and as a result withdrew from the program at this stage, but the auction continues and perhaps it will be able to convince the Russian leadership to join the program at stage 2. (and perhaps not because of pressure on Russia from China).

mixelflick wrote:Of course they have no interest in the SU-35, they already fly an advanced Flanker derivative - the SU-30MKI. And perhaps because of that, they have no interest in the SU-35 (reasons like less than reliable engines and high lifecycle costs that tend to offset a lower sticker price vs. western jets).


However, the PRC, which has a huge number of different modifications of flankers, has purchased a number of su-35, and negotiations are underway on the next contract. You can add this to your thinking logic.

mixelflick wrote:My God man, where does the spin end? Why can't you just admit the PAK FA didn't materialize as the Russians hoped?


Because it's not true.
You claim that the su-57 will only be in museums, but I know that after passing the test cycle in Lipetsk, the fighter will go into service. Work is already underway to prepare the home base airfields. From open sources, you can even find out specific air bases.
Of course, due to the difficulties in the implementation of the program, the termination of financing from India and, accordingly, the shift to the right of the implementation dates, the number of purchased aircraft will be reduced from the initial 200-250 to 96. I already wrote about it
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Unread post23 Sep 2018, 18:00

mixelflick wrote:
Of course they have no interest in the SU-35, they already fly an advanced Flanker derivative - the SU-30MKI. And perhaps because of that, they have no interest in the SU-35 (reasons like less than reliable engines and high lifecycle costs that tend to offset a lower sticker price vs. western jets).

However, the PRC, which has a huge number of different modifications of flankers, has purchased a number of su-35, and negotiations are underway on the next contract. You can add this to your thinking logic.

Everyone knows why they're buying the SU-35 - to copy its engine. It isn't because they're so enthralled with the Flanker airframe or its capabilities. If they were, why bother with the J-20 or J-31? They're clearly investing much more heavily in those, vs. buying more Flankers. They have what, 24 on order? Doubtful they'll invest much more, especially given the developmental costs of their 5th gen fighters.

So they're building 96 SU-57? Where are you getting that #?, as the only firm orders we've seen are for... 12. Even if they do build 96, they're going to be outrageously expensive - and Russia (like the US) will be tempted to ax it. That's if the 96 are real in the first place. For the sake of the people working on it, I actually hope you're right. It'll probably take export orders though to make this happen, and with such a small production run - they ain't going to be cheap.

However, I think its much more likely that they'll keep building SU-30SM's and SU-35's in dribs and drabs. They best hope one of those isn't lost to an F-22 or 35 (or God forbid an F-15 or 16), because then their export potential will be where the Mig-29's is today - in the toilet. Fine aircraft, but keeps getting reduced to hair, teeth, spare parts and eyeballs whenever encountering American jets.
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Unread post23 Sep 2018, 18:18

mixelflick wrote:mixelflick wrote:
Of course they have no interest in the SU-35, they already fly an advanced Flanker derivative - the SU-30MKI. And perhaps because of that, they have no interest in the SU-35 (reasons like less than reliable engines and high lifecycle costs that tend to offset a lower sticker price vs. western jets).


Su-35 is offered to Indians for new tender which is third tender I think they have in last two decade. Su-35 wasn't offered on second tender because they had max take off weight requirement and didn't had AESA radar both things were requirements.

Reason to get Su-35 is capability,price, logistic (massive Su-30 fleet) and it can carry Brahmos (very improtant missile for Indians). It can carry one big Brahmos or three smaller ones. Rafale or MiG-29 can carry only one smaller.

mixelflick wrote:So they're building 96 SU-57? Where are you getting that #?, as the only firm orders I'm aware of are for... 12. Even if they do build 96, they're going to be outrageously expensive - and Russia (like the US) will be tempted to ax it. That's if the 96 are real in the first place.


Not now but in 2020s, big order is waiting new engine. If it doesn't deliver how knows. And as I said earlier they need MiG-31 replacement.

It is much cheaper to buy Su-57 then to invest in MiG-31 production (it doesn't exist) and modernisation (new sensors), plus you get much smaller target then MiG-31 is. Very imporatant with B-21 which could be armed with AAMs.
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Unread post23 Sep 2018, 18:58

Cool, lets all revisit this thread in ten years and count all the SU-57's on the flight line. 12. 10 that fly. Yawn.
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Unread post23 Sep 2018, 19:07

mixelflick wrote:Everyone knows why they're buying the SU-35 - to copy its engine. It isn't because they're so enthralled with the Flanker airframe or its capabilities. If they were, why bother with the J-20 or J-31? They're clearly investing much more heavily in those, vs. buying more Flankers. They have what, 24 on order? Doubtful they'll invest much more, especially given the developmental costs of their 5th gen fighters.


Unfortunately, the 117S engine is not so good that it would be for the sake of a two-billion contract(
Of course, its researching will give some useful information, but this is not the only reason.
First of all, the su-35 is a well-balanced aviation complex for good price. He certainly will not be purchased by PRC in large quantities, but we can expect a contract for another 24 units.

mixelflick wrote:So they're building 96 SU-57? Where are you getting that #?, as the only firm orders we've seen are for... 12.


These 12 are not among them. Only the last 2 of them will have the appearance of the second stage. And it is after their tests the first contract will be signed. I don't think we should expect that before 2023.
This information is not classified, but unfortunately I can not tell the name of the person from whom it was received(

mixelflick wrote:Even if they do build 96, they're going to be outrageously expensive - and Russia (like the US) will be tempted to ax it. That's if the 96 are real in the first place. For the sake of the people working on it, I actually hope you're right. It'll probably take export orders though to make this happen, and with such a small production run - they ain't going to be cheap.


You're right. This program is very expensive. And hopes that India will cover part of the development costs were not justified.
But, as I said earlier, it is necessary to preserve the competencies and prospects of the design and engineering school of Russia.

mixelflick wrote:However, I think its much more likely that they'll keep building SU-30SM's and SU-35's in dribs and drabs.


You are right again - su-30 and 35 will continue to be purchased. Moreover, the su-30 is waiting for another modernization in the coming years.

mixelflick wrote:They best hope one of those isn't lost to an F-22 or 35 (or God forbid an F-15 or 16), because then their export potential will be where the Mig-29's is today - in the toilet. Fine aircraft, but keeps getting reduced to hair, teeth, spare parts and eyeballs whenever encountering American jets.


The export potential of the su-35 has not yet been exhausted. Su-30 after modernization for some time to be successful.
But Su-57 will never be as common as Flanker, and even in the Russian leadership there is no confidence that the MiG will be able to create a light 5gen fighter in a reasonable time.
According to this, the main resources are aimed at UAVs and 6gen fighter.
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Unread post23 Sep 2018, 19:56

Just imagine if instead of building thousands of F-35's. the US built.... 12. Furthermore, imagine if instead of those thousands of F-35's, the US built 200-300 upgraded F-15's and 16's. And instead of firm orders for more F-35's, we just gave out an IOU of 96 (maybe). "We'll build more when they're ready...".

The US military would be at an extreme disadvantage given...

1.) Air superiority hung by a precarious thread of 187 Raptors
2.) Every "new" F-15 and 16 we built was at risk of being blown out of the sky by the S-300/400/500
3.) We'd be outnumbered and stretched so thin the Chinese could island hop all the way to Hawaii

This wouldn't be made all better by proclaiming we're working on 6th gen UAV's. If I were Russia, I'd be looking for the head of whoever got them in this mess. Not only will they have to contend with the F-35 (thousands of them), they'd have to contend with Chinese J-10's, J-11's, SU-35's, J-31's and J-20's. So on not one but two fronts, they could be fighting stealth aircraft with.... upgraded Flankers.

Someone in Russia really dropped the ball, but there's no going back now...
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Unread post24 Sep 2018, 13:45

babybat{}.net wrote:This information is not classified, but unfortunately I can not tell the name of the person from whom it was received(


If your information cannot be verified as coming from a credible source, then your information is worthless.
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