More F-15s for Israel?

southernphantom · by **southernphantom** » 18 May 2018, 16:15

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... bu-448646/

Not just hand-me-down USAF airframes either, but new-build examples that may be drawing from the F-15QA. The IDF/AF uses its Eagles for some C3, as well as heavy weapons carriage, which is probably the driving reason behind this possible purchase.

SpudmanWP · by **SpudmanWP** » 18 May 2018, 20:28

Part of the deal is to upgrade all current F-15Is to a common standard with the new planes.

juretrn · by **juretrn** » 18 May 2018, 21:52

4 billion for 25 planes?
Am I missing something here?
$160 mil / plane?

southernphantom · by **southernphantom** » 19 May 2018, 04:15

juretrn wrote:4 billion for 25 planes?
Am I missing something here?
$160 mil / plane?

When spares, support equipment, training, and possibly weapons and/or maintenance are included, that is actually a pretty good cost per airframe. The Eagle is not a cheap aircraft either.

weasel1962 · by **weasel1962** » 19 May 2018, 04:24

It was $15b for 75 F-35Is or $5b for 25 F-35Is so almost $4b for 25 F-15Is isn't that high considering dual engine, more powerful AESA, heavier lift, customisation etc. The Singapore deal waas ~$3.2b for 24 F-15SGs. I understand that's generally the "all-in" deal which includes support etc.

mixelflick · by **mixelflick** » 19 May 2018, 14:10

southernphantom wrote:https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/israel-to-link-fleet-upgrade-with-follow-on-f-15i-bu-448646/

Not just hand-me-down USAF airframes either, but new-build examples that may be drawing from the F-15QA. The IDF/AF uses its Eagles for some C3, as well as heavy weapons carriage, which is probably the driving reason behind this possible purchase.

Wow, that's big news IMO.

Previously, we had heard that they're just interested in more F-35's, specifically the B model. But maybe they'll buy both? I suppose if anyone has the money..

southernphantom · by **southernphantom** » 19 May 2018, 16:08

mixelflick wrote:
southernphantom wrote:https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/israel-to-link-fleet-upgrade-with-follow-on-f-15i-bu-448646/

Not just hand-me-down USAF airframes either, but new-build examples that may be drawing from the F-15QA. The IDF/AF uses its Eagles for some C3, as well as heavy weapons carriage, which is probably the driving reason behind this possible purchase.

Wow, that's big news IMO.

Previously, we had heard that they're just interested in more F-35's, specifically the B model. But maybe they'll buy both? I suppose if anyone has the money..

If I had the money, I'd be buying both.

mixelflick · by **mixelflick** » 21 May 2018, 14:28

How much of this goes back to the F-15 being cleared to carry a 5,000lb weapon?

I'm aware the F-35 can carry that much on its innermost pylon, just not certain that it's been cleared for a 5,000lb bunker buster. And if it is/was, it's going to jeopardize stealth so....

geforcerfx · by **geforcerfx** » 21 May 2018, 15:48

mixelflick wrote:How much of this goes back to the F-15 being cleared to carry a 5,000lb weapon?

I'm aware the F-35 can carry that much on its innermost pylon, just not certain that it's been cleared for a 5,000lb bunker buster. And if it is/was, it's going to jeopardize stealth so....

I am almost 100% certain that even with two large external weapons a F-35I is still far stealthier than any F-15 that has ever flown. Not to mention you still have all the avionics and sensor abilities that even the newest F-15's don't have.

I see this purchase as similar the super hornet buys. Israel needs planes now, so why not upgrade the work horse fleet and buy a few new ones to keep the numbers up. It's a familiar aircraft(where as the F-35 is not), that can still be used against regional peers for another decade or two, especially when mixed with the F-35I.

Corsair1963 · by **Corsair1963** » 22 May 2018, 01:43

Only reason Israel would purchase more F-15's. Would be to make the US happy by keeping the F-15 production line open.

As you can't make a case of F-15's over F-35A's.

weasel1962 · by **weasel1962** » 22 May 2018, 03:46

Its a bit more complicated than that.

(a) Not every situation requires stealth
(b) The F-15I has payload and fuel advantages over the F-35A
(c) Israel probably has a lot more flexibility to modify the F-15 than the F-35. That either means interoperability issues or certain electronics that can't be integrated into the F-35 (or at least without revealing the existence or the IP).
(d) Israel still operates a lot of munitions e.g. Derby, Stunner, Spice bombs etc that would take time to integrate into the F-35 but already is operational on the F-15I.

Corsair1963 · by **Corsair1963** » 22 May 2018, 05:31

weasel1962 wrote:Its a bit more complicated than that.

(a) Not every situation requires stealth
(b) The F-15I has payload and fuel advantages over the F-35A
(c) Israel probably has a lot more flexibility to modify the F-15 than the F-35. That either means interoperability issues or certain electronics that can't be integrated into the F-35 (or at least without revealing the existence or the IP).
(d) Israel still operates a lot of munitions e.g. Derby, Stunner, Spice bombs etc that would take time to integrate into the F-35 but already is operational on the F-15I.

Sorry, what payload and fuel advantage does the F-15 Strike Eagle have over the F-35A? As I've seen no numbers to support such a claim! Also, I doubt the F-15 is cheaper to own and operate either???

So, again what's the advantage of acquiring more F-15's??? :doh:

weasel1962 · by **weasel1962** » 22 May 2018, 06:36

Corsair1963 wrote:Sorry, what payload and fuel advantage does the F-15 Strike Eagle have over the F-35A? As I've seen no numbers to support such a claim!

I mentioned F-15I, not strike eagle but since you mentioned it....

https://www.boeing.com/defense/f-15-eagle/#/facts

max weapon load 29,500 lbs (I think its 23k lbs for the F-15I). Last I heard F-35A is 18000lbs (and that's on full external). Has that changed?

On fuel, the F-15I is equipped with CFTs which with the 3x600 gallon tanks would be at max fuel mean a carriage of >34k lbs of fuel. The F-35A has 18,000 lbs internal fuel with no external tank carriage cleared at the moment.

Its not exactly secret or confidential information. Most of this is readily available via google.

Didn't mention cost as a reason for the Israeli interest so suggest not distract from the real reasons that is possibly highlighted in (a) to (d) mentioned.

h-bomb · by **h-bomb** » 22 May 2018, 07:11

Corsair1963 wrote: Sorry, what payload and fuel advantage does the F-15 Strike Eagle have over the F-35A? As I've seen no numbers to support such a claim! Also, I doubt the F-15 is cheaper to own and operate either???

So, again what's the advantage of acquiring more F-15's???

Because if the do not buy them now they will not be able to get more later? The F-15 is EOL. When the line closes they will not be able to get more.

The Israeli uses the F-15 as more than a bomb truck. I think they realized they wanted a second squadron before the F-15 line closed. The A/B models they are currently using are getting long in the tooth. Oddly they had 26 A/B models (22 survivors?). That will leave C/D models left, with the 15Is.

"what's the advantage of acquiring more F-15's?" Two man crew, absolute performance.

For all the things the F-35 can do, it cannot be scrambled to mach 2 and 50k feet as fast as an F-15 with 229's. QRA. Mini AWAC/CIC, the back seater can and have been used to provide local command and control. The US has ~30 AWACS, 15 or so JStars, 40+ Hawkeyes. The Israelis have 3, 1 707 AWACS and 2 G550 CAEW. They use the mudhen as more than just a bomb truck.

Given your username, I would like to rephrase your question:
"Sorry, what payload and fuel advantage does the F/A-18 Hornet have over the A-7E?" As we all know, none.

Corsair1963 · by **Corsair1963** » 22 May 2018, 08:15

h-bomb wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote: Sorry, what payload and fuel advantage does the F-15 Strike Eagle have over the F-35A? As I've seen no numbers to support such a claim! Also, I doubt the F-15 is cheaper to own and operate either???

So, again what's the advantage of acquiring more F-15's???

Because if the do not buy them now they will not be able to get more later? The F-15 is EOL. When the line closes they will not be able to get more.

The Israeli uses the F-15 as more than a bomb truck. I think they realized they wanted a second squadron before the F-15 line closed. The A/B models they are currently using are getting long in the tooth. Oddly they had 26 A/B models (22 survivors?). That will leave C/D models left, with the 15Is.

"what's the advantage of acquiring more F-15's?" Two man crew, absolute performance.

For all the things the F-35 can do, it cannot be scrambled to mach 2 and 50k feet as fast as an F-15 with 229's. QRA. Mini AWAC/CIC, the back seater can and have been used to provide local command and control. The US has ~30 AWACS, 15 or so JStars, 40+ Hawkeyes. The Israelis have 3, 1 707 AWACS and 2 G550 CAEW. They use the mudhen as more than just a bomb truck.

Given your username, I would like to rephrase your question:
"Sorry, what payload and fuel advantage does the F/A-18 Hornet have over the A-7E?" As we all know, none.

Sorry, by the numbers you have no case. The F-15 doesn't offer better payload vs range. Nor, does it offer a tenth of the performance of the F-35. Honestly, how long have you been a member of this forum???? Really, the F-35 cannot scramble to Mach 2 and 50,000 ft as fast as an F-15 with 229's??? Really, under what load and fuel state???