Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Military aircraft - Post cold war aircraft, including for example B-2, Gripen, F-18E/F Super Hornet, Rafale, and Typhoon.
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zero-one

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Unread post28 Aug 2018, 09:29

Corsair1963 wrote:
Go waste someone else's time..........


Dug yourself into a hole you can't get out of???
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Corsair1963

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Unread post28 Aug 2018, 09:31

zero-one wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:
Go waste someone else's time..........


Dug yourself into a hole you can't get out of???


No just annoyed that you would ask such dumb questions. I suggest you go back an read an number of other posts on the subject of Stealth (RCS) between the F-22 and F-35.....
:doh:
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zero-one

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Unread post28 Aug 2018, 09:41

Corsair1963 wrote:No just annoyed that you would ask such dumb questions. I suggest you go back an read an number of other posts on the subject of Stealth (RCS) between the F-22 and F-35.....
:doh:


With respect to all our knowledgeable resident members here, I believe General Hostage's statements hold more water.

he made it clear, even if the F-35 "can" beat the F-22 in stealth (operating word is "can" not "will" ) he concedes that the F-22 is still the better A-A platform.

8 F-35s to match 2 F-22s.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post28 Aug 2018, 09:47

zero-one wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:No just annoyed that you would ask such dumb questions. I suggest you go back an read an number of other posts on the subject of Stealth (RCS) between the F-22 and F-35.....
:doh:


With respect to all our knowledgeable resident members here, I believe General Hostage's statements hold more water.

he made it clear, even if the F-35 "can" beat the F-22 in stealth (operating word is "can" not "will" ) he concedes that the F-22 is still the better A-A platform.

8 F-35s to match 2 F-22s.



Very old quote....Yet, he also said the F-35 was stealthier than the F-22. So, you also agree with that??? :wink:
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zero-one

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Unread post28 Aug 2018, 10:15

Corsair1963 wrote:
Very old quote....Yet, he also said the F-35 was stealthier than the F-22. So, you also agree with that??? :wink:


Old doesn't mean untrue.
he said it can beat the F-22 in Stealth.

We can guess why.
The F-35 can rely less on active sensors which give out emissions making it a tad bit stealthier in the EM spectrum.
It still won't have the speed or altitude of the Raptor.
Theres a certain level on invulnerability when you are a flying metal marble at 60,000 feet, cruising at Mach 1.8
No amount of Sensor fusion can give you that
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Corsair1963

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Unread post28 Aug 2018, 10:37

zero-one wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:
Very old quote....Yet, he also said the F-35 was stealthier than the F-22. So, you also agree with that??? :wink:


Old doesn't mean untrue.
he said it can beat the F-22 in Stealth.

We can guess why.
The F-35 can rely less on active sensors which give out emissions making it a tad bit stealthier in the EM spectrum.
It still won't have the speed or altitude of the Raptor.
Theres a certain level on invulnerability when you are a flying metal marble at 60,000 feet, cruising at Mach 1.8
No amount of Sensor fusion can give you that



High Speed greatly increases your infrared signature significantly. Nonetheless, at this stage we really know little on how the F-22 and F-35 would do against each other. Yet, the facts still support the F-35 has advantages in both Stealth and Sensor Fusion. Which, would be a considerable value in the "real world".....
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marsavian

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Unread post28 Aug 2018, 10:49

Corsair1963 wrote:
marsavian wrote:The deal with Japan is distance to China and the disputed islands, it wants a long range air superiority platform to confront J-20s far from its shores. The F-22 with 2 tanks surpasses the stock F-35 in combat radius and no doubt they will plumb the other two pylons so it can carry 4 tanks and have a combat radius over 1000nm. This is not taking into account its greater radar range and kinematic performance making it a more effective interceptor. The reasoning behind this aircraft is the same as that behind the PCA, performance at long fighter range for the Pacific environment which is why it probably will happen, Japan probably views it as essential to safeguard its extended sovereignty.

Image



Sorry, according to your own graph the F-22 doesn't exceed the range of the F-35. Unless it carries external fuel tanks. Which, would take away its main advantage of stealth. Regardless, I can tell you the F-22 in "never" going to return to production.....Which, has been explained over and over again on this very forum.
:roll:


You didn't properly read what I wrote,

"The F-22 with 2 TANKS surpasses the STOCK F-35 in combat radius"

The other two heavy F-22 pylons are also geared to carry fuel tanks so even if F-35 eventually got two tanks it would still be behind in combat radius. The other deal with the F-22 tanks is that their pylons are jettisonable too so once jettisoned the F-22 is in stock stealth profile. The purposes of the tanks is to get the F-22 to the combat arena, not to fight with.

The F-22 is never going to be put into production again in the US ? Sure, but we are talking about production in Japan so expect a F-22B with DAS with four tank capability to be built there and probably exported too in time. This is as much about getting Japanese aircraft technology state of the art as it is the actual military requirement.
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marsavian

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Unread post28 Aug 2018, 10:58

LMT are also now saying the F-35 is stealthier now.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... -u-432983/

AFTER THE RAPTOR

On a radar map, a 747 would appear the size of a hot air balloon and an F-16 would look like a beach ball. Drill down to legacy stealth aircraft and Lockheed’s F-117 Nighthawk would show up as a golf ball while an F-22 Raptor might appear as a pea. With the F-35, Lockheed is getting down to pebble size, according to Robert Wallace, senior manager for F-35 flight operations.


Wallace, a former chief of low-observability for the US Air Force’s B-2 bomber, says the F-35 has leveraged LO qualities from the bomber – but he could not elaborate on specifics.

Pilots will see a more advanced low-observable signature on the F-35 versus the F-22, but it’s the maintainers who see the greatest leap in durability.
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Unread post28 Aug 2018, 11:17

zero-one wrote:Maybe the JSDAF will use her F-35's primarily as strike aircraft.
They badly want an F-22 class fighter a.k.a overkill, best in the world air dominance platform.

Something that will be untouchable while flying at 60,000 feet, Mach 1.8.
Japan has a lot of pride, they don't want to go around flying the second best air superiority fighter like 15 other allies. They want to be on par with the US, they wanted F-15s when the F-15 was king. Now they want the reigning air dominance king.


These reasons you gave are ridiculous. Pride?? Is dick measuring contest now a part of Japan's defense strategy? No offense but this sounds like pure F-22 fanboying. What makes you think of these reasons for Japan wanting F-22 or not?

Also Japan wasn't the first country outside US to get F-15, it's Israel.

Also what part of Japan defense strategy call for a OCA aircraft like F-22? Besides Japan care more about loiter and the article mention new wings for more fuel, which will certainly reduce supersonic performance.
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zero-one

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Unread post28 Aug 2018, 11:22

Corsair1963 wrote:
High Speed greatly increases your infrared signature significantly. Nonetheless, at this stage we really know little on how the F-22 and F-35 would do against each other.

IR sensors are generally short range, and if you're a 4th gen that somehow manages to detect the Raptor which is flying at twice the altitude as you, good luck shooting a missile upwards. Is it impossible? no, But I bet the Pk of that missile will be somewhere in the low 20 - 30% Point is thats gona be tough.

Corsair1963 wrote:Yet, the facts still support the F-35 has advantages in both Stealth and Sensor Fusion. Which, would be a considerable value in the "real world".....


Real world? we go back to General Hostage's assessment on this one, besides he knows exactly what the real world capabilities of both are.

And lets not act like the F-35 has better stealth in orders of magnitude better than the F-22. Or sensors and sensor fusion a generation ahead of the Raptor. The F-22 still has the bigger more powerful radar, their Stealth is generally accepted as within the same ball park.

But the F-22's Kinematic advantages are considerably better in some areas. Yes their subsonic performance (a.k.a. dogfighting) is within the same ballpark, but the F-22s ability to supercruise at high mach numbers and extreme high altitude persistence is something the F-35 really can't match.

My point is, in an air to air mission, the perceived advantages of the F-35 over the F-22 are quite moderate, the advantages of the Raptor to the F-35 on the other hand are quite considerable. Strictly in an A-A scenario.
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Unread post28 Aug 2018, 11:54

zero-one wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:the F-35's advantages in Stealth and Sensor Fusion Give the Lightning many advantages over even the Raptor including some in the "Air to Air Role".


Publicly available RCS figures put the Raptor's RCS lower than the F-35's




Those figures seem to come from very, very old article in AWST. Actually those figures are from previous millennium as that article was from 1999, meaning almost 20 years old figures. I doubt those figures are anywhere near correct values as F-35 was barely on drawing board. Those figures are even wrong for the physical objects they refer to (metal marble and metal golf ball).

zero-one wrote:Granted that these are not accurate, there is nothing out there to suggest that the F-35 has better stealth
the closest that we get from official sources is from Gen. Mike Hostage
https://breakingdefense.com/2014/06/gen ... -starts/3/
“The F-35 doesn’t have the altitude, doesn’t have the speed [of the F-22], but it can beat the F-22 in stealth.” But stealth — the ability to elude or greatly complicate an enemy’s ability to find and destroy an aircraft using a combination of design, tactics and technology — is not a magic pill, Hostage reminds us.


in the same breath he says

The problem is, with the lack of F-22s, I’m going to have to use F-35s in the air superiority role in the early phases as well.....“Because it can’t turn and run away, it’s got to have support from other F-35s. So I’m going to need eight F-35s to go after a target that I might only need two Raptors to go after.


This from Gen. Hostage who knows more about these 2 planes that we can ever hope. So all this talk about the F-35 being better than the F-22 in A-A has to stop. If it was, the USAF would label it as their premier A-A platform and not the F-22.

It's the second best A-A platform, wildly better than anything else EXCEPT the Raptor.


Strange as Gen Hostage clearly refers to "site" in that interview meaning a ground target. He also says that F-35 has much smaller cross section than F-22. So he seems to consede that F-35 has lower RCS.

About stealth in that interview:
The F-35′s cross section is much smaller than the F-22′s, but that does not mean, Hostage concedes, that the F-35 is necessarily superior to the F-22 when we go to war.


Because it can’t turn and run away, it’s got to have support from other F-35s. So I’m going to need eight F-35s to go after a target that I might only need two Raptors to go after. But the F-35s can be equally or more effective against that site than the Raptor can because of the synergistic effects of the platform.


Doesn't seem to be about air-to-air combat at all. It seems like he considers two F-22s being able to attack a ground target using speed and altitude advantages. F-35 would attack it relying more on numbers and co-operative capabilities and tactics. I really doubt it would normally take 8 F-35s to do a job 2 F-22s can do, especially against ground targets.

Here is what F-35 Program Executive Officer Lt. Gen. Christopher C. Bogdan said in here:
http://www.airforcemag.com/MagazineArch ... roach.aspx

Hostage caused a stir in late spring when, in press interviews, he said the F-35 would be stealthier than the F-22, its larger USAF stablemate. Conventional wisdom had pegged the F-22, with its angled, vectored-thrust engines, as a stealthier machine than the F-35. Hostage also said the F-35 would be unbeatable when employed in numbers, which is why the full buy of aircraft is "so critical."

"I would say that General Hostage … is accurate in his statement about the simple stealthiness of the F-35 [with regard] to other airplanes," Bogdan said in the interview. The statement was accurate for radar cross section, as measured in decibels, and range of detectability, he said, and he scoffed at the notion that anyone can tell how stealthy an aircraft is just by looking at it.

The comment about the effectiveness of F-35s together "has less to do with stealthiness and more to do with overall survivability," he said.

"We are going to ask the F-35 to do things that no other airplane—fourth gen or otherwise—is going to be able to do in the future," he stated. For some of those missions, "it would be much better to do it with more than one F-35."

Besides their stealthiness, the F-35s share information and can perform electronic warfare, electronic attack, and cyber missions.

"When you put two F-35s in the battlespace, … they become even more survivable when they do it together," Bogdan asserted. With two or more, "the sum of the parts is greater than the whole," especially when the aircraft are teaming up "from different parts of the airspace, on the same targets. It becomes quite effective."


I'd say Bogdan knows a thing or two about this issue...
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Unread post28 Aug 2018, 12:17

zero-one wrote:And lets not act like the F-35 has better stealth in orders of magnitude better than the F-22. Or sensors and sensor fusion a generation ahead of the Raptor. The F-22 still has the bigger more powerful radar, their Stealth is generally accepted as within the same ball park.

But the F-22's Kinematic advantages are considerably better in some areas. Yes their subsonic performance (a.k.a. dogfighting) is within the same ballpark, but the F-22s ability to supercruise at high mach numbers and extreme high altitude persistence is something the F-35 really can't match.

My point is, in an air to air mission, the perceived advantages of the F-35 over the F-22 are quite moderate, the advantages of the Raptor to the F-35 on the other hand are quite considerable. Strictly in an A-A scenario.


Actually sensor fusion is a generation ahead of the Raptor according to the man who actually was involved in designing both systems:
https://www.f35.com/in-depth/detail/eli ... f-the-f-35

With 18 years spent as a representative on the F-22 fusion team, Tom is one of only a handful of people who have intimate knowledge of both the F-35 and F-22 fusion systems.

“Some innovations had to happen mathematically to deal with data the way they were sharing it before the F-22” he says. “By the time the F-22 came along, the computers and technology finally caught up, and we launched the first real 5th Generation fusion on an aircraft.”

That was “Fusion 1.0.” The F-35 takes it one step further.

“The F-35 not only has the ability to proactively collect and analyze data, but it adds the ability to share it amongst the fleet and work as a pack,” he explains. “That’s ‘Fusion 2.0.’”


F-35 has EOTS and EO DAS systems which have capabilties that F-22 does not have at all. That's 7 individual sensors F-22 does not have. AN/AAR-56 is just MLD and nothing more currently, although it could have better capabilties if upgraded.
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Unread post28 Aug 2018, 12:34

A pea is about a tenth the diameter of a pebble last I checked.
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sferrin

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Unread post28 Aug 2018, 12:44

marsavian wrote:The deal with Japan is distance to China and the disputed islands, it wants a long range air superiority platform to confront J-20s far from its shores. The F-22 with 2 tanks surpasses the stock F-35 in combat radius and no doubt they will plumb the other two pylons so it can carry 4 tanks and have a combat radius over 1000nm.


Thought I read somewhere they didn't go with four tanks for structural reasons. (Kinda like them not using the outboard pylons on most model Eagles.) They had an "iron bird" to test the plumbing system for four tanks but they never flew with four in testing.
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Unread post28 Aug 2018, 12:51

element1loop wrote:So a large PCA with its modern variable mode efficient cruise propulsion will be ideal for the Indo-Pac regional range problem (and the J20 design is clearly aspiring to be that). I think that's what everyone who shares this problem will conclude, and will seek to invest accordingly, for the middle-2030s forwards, with that sort of range capability and F-35-like extreme tactical adaptability in mind.


Back in the 70s, pre-ATF days, they'd started to lean that direction with the F-15 replacement. There were many concepts for long range supercruisers.

boe1978ssc1500mile-sm.jpg


boe1979heavyinterceptor.JPG


ATF_CL-2016_1.jpg
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