Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 20 Apr 2018, 11:15
by citanon
U.S. defense contractor Lockheed Martin Corp plans to offer Japan a stealth fighter design based on its export-banned F-22 Raptor and advanced F-35 Lightning II aircraft, two sources said.

Source: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-japa ... SKBN1HR0MM

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 20 Apr 2018, 11:52
by popcorn
F-22 kinematic performance with F-35 avionics and sensors suite? Great for both countries if Japan foots the bill.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 20 Apr 2018, 12:02
by eagleowl
popcorn wrote:F-22 kinematic performance with F-35 avionics and sensors suite? Great for both countries if Japan foots the bill.

Sounds capable as hell but also expensive as all hell. Not to mention Japan will probably ask LM to tweak the F-22's size and wing planform. Sounds like F-2 2.0 (which I guess, may be the point of the exercise)

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 20 Apr 2018, 12:44
by popcorn
Basically what former SECAF Wynne has proposed as an alternative to achieve a 6Gen capability.

https://sldinfo.com/2017/12/redefining- ... -aircraft/

Combining the proven combat strengths of both the F-22 and F-35, Secretary Wynne is proposing an accelerator, building from lessons learned with existing assets, but taking full advantage of subsystem research to shape a force multiplier further empowering the air superiority/combat revolution

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 20 Apr 2018, 13:42
by hornetfinn
popcorn wrote:Basically what former SECAF Wynne has proposed as an alternative to achieve a 6Gen capability.

https://sldinfo.com/2017/12/redefining- ... -aircraft/

Combining the proven combat strengths of both the F-22 and F-35, Secretary Wynne is proposing an accelerator, building from lessons learned with existing assets, but taking full advantage of subsystem research to shape a force multiplier further empowering the air superiority/combat revolution


I think such an approach would be much better than trying to make some 6th gen fighter when we are just starting to scratch the surface of what 5th gen fighters can do. We could just make F-22 sized fighter aircraft with latest design and manufacturing technology which probably would lead to much larger fuel load and higher efficiency (to have much longer range and endurance) with about similar performance figures. Then install F-35 derived sensors and avionics systems and software. This would combine the best of both F-22 and F-35 while possibly being exportable to selected countries like Japan. It could also replace F-22 at some point and be reasonably economical as it could be developed in line with F-35.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 20 Apr 2018, 14:16
by popcorn
It may make sense for the USG and JG to partner and share the R&D costs. Both would wind up with a highly capable platform. Give Boeing a piece of the pie to get their buy-in.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 20 Apr 2018, 14:59
by mixelflick
citanon wrote:https://www.reuters.com/article/us-japan-defence-lockheed-exclusive/exclusive-lockheed-martin-to-propose-stealthy-hybrid-of-f-22-and-f-35-for-japan-sources-idUSKBN1HR0MM


Interesting...

But if the reports are true of the F-35's 20:1 kill ratio at Red Flag etc, why bother? It's only going to get a more powerful engine, improved fuel consumption/range, better weapons etc.. Wouldn't surprise me if the 2023 F-35 super cruises at a comfortable mach 1.3 or more, carrying far better AAM's and perhaps even better sensors.

I don't see China's J-20 as a serious air to air threat. Neither do I think the J-31 is going to measure up to the F-35. Isn't Lockheed already working on a 6th gen/PCA proposal? That's going to be a lot of time and energy split across 2 different projects. If I was Lockheed, I'd have my best people on PCA and of course, the rest of the company focused on pumping out F-35's for the next 20 years... not helping the Japanese build an F-22/35 hydrid.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 20 Apr 2018, 15:03
by ricnunes
eagleowl wrote:
popcorn wrote:F-22 kinematic performance with F-35 avionics and sensors suite? Great for both countries if Japan foots the bill.

Sounds capable as hell but also expensive as all hell. Not to mention Japan will probably ask LM to tweak the F-22's size and wing planform. Sounds like F-2 2.0 (which I guess, may be the point of the exercise)


Yes, that what's what it also sounds to me, except that I think that such aircraft would be a "larger"/modified F-35 instead of a modified F-22 or resuming, like you hinted (I guess) a version 2.0 of the F-16/F-2 (but now with F-35/F-3).

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 20 Apr 2018, 15:59
by juretrn
Hmm......
Enlarged F-35 with 2xF135 and loads of fuel to take the fight to the enemy?

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 20 Apr 2018, 17:39
by eagleowl
The thing is, try to enlarge the F-35 too much and you basically are 90% of the way to a clean sheet design. Also, the talk is of a F-22/F-35 Hybrid and for that to be true, you would need an aspect of the F-22 to integrate into the prospective F-3. What is there to take from the F-22 other than the airframe? The F-35 has more advanced CLAW, Sensors, Avionics, and other subsystems.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 20 Apr 2018, 19:20
by citanon
eagleowl wrote:
popcorn wrote:F-22 kinematic performance with F-35 avionics and sensors suite? Great for both countries if Japan foots the bill.

Sounds capable as hell but also expensive as all hell. Not to mention Japan will probably ask LM to tweak the F-22's size and wing planform. Sounds like F-2 2.0 (which I guess, may be the point of the exercise)


My thoughts exactly. I wonder if this ends in a similar situation. Japan ends up with super F22 while US moves on to 6th gen soon there after.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 20 Apr 2018, 19:38
by marsavian
This smells like an updated F-22 with EOTS/DAS/MADL and F-135 engines. Biggest bang for buck.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 20 Apr 2018, 20:04
by milosh
marsavian wrote:This smells like an updated F-22 with EOTS/DAS/MADL and F-135 engines. Biggest bang for buck.


No need for F135 in F-22. F119 is beast and ideal for super cruising. Add putting F135 inside F-22 airframe isn't easy at all not only because space problems.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 20 Apr 2018, 20:41
by Fox1
If such a beast comes to fruition, I hope our own government will have the good sense to buy some of them too.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 20 Apr 2018, 22:07
by madrat
Better yet, let Japan basically fund the navalized F-22A/F-35C love child with ADVENT engines for us and F135 for them...

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 20 Apr 2018, 22:13
by SpudmanWP
milosh wrote:No need for F135 in F-22. F119 is beast and ideal for super cruising.

Fitting the F135 will lead to ADVENT which will be plenty to SC with without having to fund another engine update program.

Enlarging the airframe by a little bit will allow for a 2k munition and another AMRAAM per bay. You may even enlarge the side bays a little bit to add 2 Aim-9Xs per side bay. The increased thrust from the F135 vs the F119 will compensate for the increased weight.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 21 Apr 2018, 01:04
by citanon
SpudmanWP wrote:
milosh wrote:No need for F135 in F-22. F119 is beast and ideal for super cruising.

Fitting the F135 will lead to ADVENT which will be plenty to SC with without having to fund another engine update program.

Enlarging the airframe by a little bit will allow for a 2k munition and another AMRAAM per bay. You may even enlarge the side bays a little bit to add 2 Aim-9Xs per side bay. The increased thrust from the F135 vs the F119 will compensate for the increased weight.


This is starting to sound like an FB-22.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 21 Apr 2018, 05:53
by SpudmanWP
citanon wrote:This is starting to sound like an FB-22.

Nah, just a "little" bigger & longer.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 21 Apr 2018, 07:13
by eagleowl
F-3 requirements from http://sp.yomiuri.co.jp/politics/201804 ... 50098.html, according to google translate.

1. A deployable, data-linked, buddy, parasite drone that will detach and scout ahead of the F-3, using it's sensor to relay info to the F-3
2. 8 internal AAM loadout
3. Top speed similar to F-2 (2.0 Mach)
4. Equal manuverability, radar performance, stealth to a F-35.

Sounds expensive, sounds like nearly a 5.5th generation fighter.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 21 Apr 2018, 07:20
by milosh
SpudmanWP wrote:
milosh wrote:No need for F135 in F-22. F119 is beast and ideal for super cruising.

Fitting the F135 will lead to ADVENT which will be plenty to SC with without having to fund another engine update program.

Enlarging the airframe by a little bit will allow for a 2k munition and another AMRAAM per bay. You may even enlarge the side bays a little bit to add 2 Aim-9Xs per side bay. The increased thrust from the F135 vs the F119 will compensate for the increased weight.


If USAF decide to buy larger F-22 then it could happen, but Japan alone nope. F-22 with F-35 electronics on other hand is something Japan will buy and I expect USAF will also what to upgrade its F-22 fleet to same standard.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 21 Apr 2018, 07:27
by mk82
popcorn wrote:F-22 kinematic performance with F-35 avionics and sensors suite? Great for both countries if Japan foots the bill.


“........if Japan foots the bill”. I reckon this is the most important factor that will determine if the F22/F35 hybrid proposal will proceed further. Looks like Japan’s indigenous ATD-X program may die a swift death.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 21 Apr 2018, 07:33
by popcorn
Japan's insistence on using indigenous engines and radar would reduce any possible interest from the USAF.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 21 Apr 2018, 11:21
by zero-one
mixelflick wrote:
Interesting...

But if the reports are true of the F-35's 20:1 kill ratio at Red Flag etc, why bother? It's only going to get a more powerful engine, improved fuel consumption/range, better weapons etc.. Wouldn't surprise me if the 2023 F-35 super cruises at a comfortable mach 1.3 or more, carrying far better AAM's and perhaps even better sensors.


It will still be less than an F-22 tho.

2 things here:
1. As good as the F-35 is for air to air combat whenever someone says its not as good as an F-22, everyone says, its not meant to be, the Raptor was always tailor made for air to air. And in that specific mission, the F-22 is still regarded as the best. 20:1 is great, but Raptors got 240:1.

2. I think the F-22 has more growth potential than the F-35. If the DOD just gave it the budget, they could replace the old computer hardware that is one of the biggest limiting factors. They can finally give it IRST and side looking AESA, these were always in the original design and I believe there is actual space inside for that, maybe even DAS.

But we can never give the F-35 a big AESA with 2000 T\R modules. its difficult to give it a ridiculous amount of thrust cause you're working with just 1 engine.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 21 Apr 2018, 22:43
by geforcerfx
zero-one wrote:
mixelflick wrote:
Interesting...

But if the reports are true of the F-35's 20:1 kill ratio at Red Flag etc, why bother? It's only going to get a more powerful engine, improved fuel consumption/range, better weapons etc.. Wouldn't surprise me if the 2023 F-35 super cruises at a comfortable mach 1.3 or more, carrying far better AAM's and perhaps even better sensors.


It will still be less than an F-22 tho.

2 things here:
1. As good as the F-35 is for air to air combat whenever someone says its not as good as an F-22, everyone says, its not meant to be, the Raptor was always tailor made for air to air. And in that specific mission, the F-22 is still regarded as the best. 20:1 is great, but Raptors got 240:1.

2. I think the F-22 has more growth potential than the F-35. If the DOD just gave it the budget, they could replace the old computer hardware that is one of the biggest limiting factors. They can finally give it IRST and side looking AESA, these were always in the original design and I believe there is actual space inside for that, maybe even DAS.

But we can never give the F-35 a big AESA with 2000 T\R modules. its difficult to give it a ridiculous amount of thrust cause you're working with just 1 engine.


F-22 already has a DAS like system, imaging sensors and all, just no way for the pilot to view the images. I would skip side radar and dedicated IRST and do a full DAS upgrade, better 360 usage, and can still track fighters at range.

F-35 is only around 300 modules short of 2000, so not a huge issue it would seem. Size is more restricted bu prob around 200-300mm. I don't know what you consider ridiculous amounts of thrust, but 43,000lbs from a fighter engine seems to already be there, the thing could be at 46,000lbs in service in less than 5 years.





I honestly don't get what Japan is hoping to do with this, do they want more speed? With how small there military budget is compared the US and with how small of an area they have to cover seems smarter to just buy more F-35s, easier logistics, more than fast enough for the distance's they have to cover, and the upgrades are already coming.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 22 Apr 2018, 00:08
by vilters
For Japan?
The most important thing an improved F-22 would need is more internal fuel.
Do a "plug-in" as has been done before, to get an extra 4.000-6.000 pounds of fuel in the thing.

F-35 "style" avionix would be welcome too.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 22 Apr 2018, 00:36
by wrightwing
geforcerfx wrote:



I don't know what you consider ridiculous amounts of thrust, but 43,000lbs from a fighter engine seems to already be there, the thing could be at 46,000lbs in service in less than 5 years.


Actually the engine upgrades will yield more than an additional 3k lbs. It's closer to 8k lbs, putting the wet thrust at ~51,000lbs. Everything else is spot on.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 22 Apr 2018, 02:13
by white_lightning35
This f-2235 could be a mystical bird of magnificence, but is it realistic? Why would the US let the Japancakes have something better than the f-22 and the f-35? Who is going to build and pay for this expensive airframe; will the Japancakes be able to afford it? As funny as it sounds, there are not piles of cash around for the US to develop and build an f-22-like airframe, as of now.

P.S Talk about a nightmare when this one falls into Chinese hands.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 22 Apr 2018, 03:48
by h-bomb
geforcerfx wrote:I honestly don't get what Japan is hoping to do with this, do they want more speed? With how small there military budget is compared the US and with how small of an area they have to cover seems smarter to just buy more F-35s, easier logistics, more than fast enough for the distance's they have to cover, and the upgrades are already coming.


If the Japanese thought that way they would have just purchased stock or minimally modified F-16/18's instead of the F-2.

They want local participation and knowledge transfer. The problem now is the people with the F-2 experience are aging out and they need a project to have that knowledge and skills transferred. They are paying a $30 mil USD premium to assemble in Japan. Why? Skills and knowledge transfer. Japanese manufacturers have not made a "fighter" aircraft since F-2 ended production 2011. It is not about the economical choice.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 22 Apr 2018, 03:50
by charlielima223
mk82 wrote:
“........if Japan foots the bill”. I reckon this is the most important factor that will determine if the F22/F35 hybrid proposal will proceed further. Looks like Japan’s indigenous ATD-X program may die a swift death.


Or it could be that Lockheed Martin could possibly assist in Japan's ATD-X program. The X-2 Shinshin looks rather "F-22-ish"

Image

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 22 Apr 2018, 04:22
by citanon
white_lightning35 wrote:This f-2235 could be a mystical bird of magnificence, but is it realistic? Why would the US let the Japancakes have something better than the f-22 and the f-35? Who is going to build and pay for this expensive airframe; will the Japancakes be able to afford it? As funny as it sounds, there are not piles of cash around for the US to develop and build an f-22-like airframe, as of now.

P.S Talk about a nightmare when this one falls into Chinese hands.


There's precedence here with the F2, as others have pointed out.


Also, there's the dimension of time. By the time F-2 came out, the F-22 was well on its way. Similarly, this bird would likely arrive shortly before PCA.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 22 Apr 2018, 08:31
by zero-one
geforcerfx wrote:
F-35 is only around 300 modules short of 2000, so not a huge issue it would seem. Size is more restricted bu prob around 200-300mm. I don't know what you consider ridiculous amounts of thrust, but 43,000lbs from a fighter engine seems to already be there, the thing could be at 46,000lbs in service in less than 5 years.


I honestly doubt that the APG-77 only has around 200 more T/R modules than the APG-81. It looks to me like it has 800 more modules. Some estimates peg the APG-81 at 1,200 modules while the APG-77 is at around 2000+. But these are mostly estimates, if you have more precises sources then I have no problem with that.

The F-22's sheer kinematic performance comes largely by being overkill in all aerodynamic fronts, engine power, wing and control surface sizes, drag, etc. It was literally built to be too fast, too agile, too powerful.

The F-35 is great, but the kinematic concept was more in line with, fast enough, agile enough, powerful enough to win any gun fight. (remember I'm a big fan and defender of just how awesome the F-35's kinematics are)

Just imagine, even when it can rate like a Viper, point and shoot like a Hornet and has DAS. Raptor pilots still say in WVR they smoke F-35s.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 22 Apr 2018, 09:01
by juretrn
milosh wrote:
SpudmanWP wrote:
milosh wrote:No need for F135 in F-22. F119 is beast and ideal for super cruising.

Fitting the F135 will lead to ADVENT which will be plenty to SC with without having to fund another engine update program.

Enlarging the airframe by a little bit will allow for a 2k munition and another AMRAAM per bay. You may even enlarge the side bays a little bit to add 2 Aim-9Xs per side bay. The increased thrust from the F135 vs the F119 will compensate for the increased weight.


If USAF decide to buy larger F-22 then it could happen, but Japan alone nope. F-22 with F-35 electronics on other hand is something Japan will buy and I expect USAF will also what to upgrade its F-22 fleet to same standard.

F-22 with F-35 electronics... :D :D

My wish list would be:
1. ADVENT engines, because :drool:
2. DAS combined with the F-35 Gen 4 helmet
3. GaN all around
4. Sensor fusion and networking on par with F-35's
5. Baked-in RAM, make life easier for maintenance crews.
6. SW and antenna upgrades to ALR-94

EOTS? Meh, just stop pretending it is an A2G bird at all.
Side arrays? Would be nice, probably not a priority.
IRST? I dunno, DAS would probably be good enough.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 22 Apr 2018, 11:41
by milosh
juretrn wrote:EOTS? Meh, just stop pretending it is an A2G bird at all.
Side arrays? Would be nice, probably not a priority.
IRST? I dunno, DAS would probably be good enough.


F-22 would have something similar to EOTS, it was AIRST (but it was canceled) so there is probable place to install more capable IRST in F-22. Long range IRST is good to have, because of long range identification and counter stealth.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 22 Apr 2018, 20:22
by charlielima223
milosh wrote:
F-22 would have something similar to EOTS, it was AIRST (but it was canceled) so there is probable place to install more capable IRST in F-22. Long range IRST is good to have, because of long range identification and counter stealth.


F-22 unfortunately doesn't have any real-estate for an AIRST or IRST. Originally it was supposed to be in the wing root connecting the wing to the main body. Now that space has been occupied by leading edge flaps. However there is this tiny tidbit...

http://www.airforcemag.com/MagazineArch ... ricks.aspx

Though the Air Force is considering an infrared search and track (IRST) system for the F-22 to help it better see stealthy adversaries, Merchant said, “we really don’t have the real estate” in the same location on the F-22. “We’re looking at other options.” He was unable to elaborate due to classification.


I don't think it will be an IRST pod as we've seen on Eagles, Vipers, and Rhinos. IF you're going to go up against another stealth platform the last thing you would want to do is compromise your stealthy characteristics by having an external pod of some sort. I am thinking/guessing that they are looking at the AN/AAR-56. Even though the AN/AAR-56 is a MLD, it is the precursor to the F-35's AN/AAQ-37 DAS. The image quality on the F-22's MLD is still very good.



If they can put in some new hardware and software to make it "DAS-ish", that would be an improvement over being a dedicated MLD system.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 23 Apr 2018, 02:01
by Dragon029
charlielima223 wrote:
milosh wrote:
F-22 would have something similar to EOTS, it was AIRST (but it was canceled) so there is probable place to install more capable IRST in F-22. Long range IRST is good to have, because of long range identification and counter stealth.


F-22 unfortunately doesn't have any real-estate for an AIRST or IRST. Originally it was supposed to be in the wing root connecting the wing to the main body. Now that space has been occupied by leading edge flaps. However there is this tiny tidbit...


Wasn't the IRST originally going to be mounted under the nose like the EOTS, but then that space was taken up by avionics?

The talk from the USAF has been about either mounting it under the nose anyway (with the associated avionics being mounted externally), like the Advanced Super Hornet concept's IRST, or mounting on at least one of the wing roots (probably in a bump that resembles the PAK-FA's R-73 bays).

Either of those solutions could be quite stealthy, they just have to be designed correctly to have the proper alignments and conductive blending with the skin.

Ultimately, a DAS system will never provide the same range /long-range capabilities of a telescopic IRST (any upgrades to imaging sensors also benefits an IRST); having both is just the superior option, and can be done reasonably cost-effectively as seen with the F-35.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 23 Apr 2018, 04:42
by madrat
Until you have two or more EOTS systems working in conjunction, you'll be severely restricted in searching with it.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 23 Apr 2018, 04:46
by geforcerfx
Dragon029 wrote:
Wasn't the IRST originally going to be mounted under the nose like the EOTS, but then that space was taken up by avionics?



I think that would work best for the F-22, with it being a higher altitude cruising fighter having the IRST underneath seems to be a smarter choice.

I would be happy with them integrating the F-35 DAS system and HMD for the pilots though, improved SA and gives them 360 IRST, just shorter ranged.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 23 Apr 2018, 04:59
by Dragon029
madrat wrote:Until you have two or more EOTS systems working in conjunction, you'll be severely restricted in searching with it.


It would be interesting to see a study done (a few people here could do it with a bit of spare time) showing the curve of average search time (to find a fighter-sized target approaching the IRST-equipped jet) vs number of IRSTs, with variables such as initial target distance and configurations of zoom levels (eg, with 2 IRSTs, having one scanning with a 5x5 deg FOV and another scanning with a 0.5x0.5 deg FOV) and search patterns.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 23 Apr 2018, 05:20
by Corsair1963
Honestly, I don't take any such proposal as serious! First, it would be "extremely" expensive. While, taking a good twenty years to design, develop, test, and field. By which time China, Europe, and the US won't be far from fielding 6th Generation Types.



Nonetheless, as I have been saying all along. My guess (opinion) is Japan will continue to acquire F-35's. Then is another decade or so she will join with a partner or partners to develop a future 6th Generation Fighter.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 23 Apr 2018, 05:28
by wrightwing
zero-one wrote:
geforcerfx wrote:
F-35 is only around 300 modules short of 2000, so not a huge issue it would seem. Size is more restricted bu prob around 200-300mm. I don't know what you consider ridiculous amounts of thrust, but 43,000lbs from a fighter engine seems to already be there, the thing could be at 46,000lbs in service in less than 5 years.


I honestly doubt that the APG-77 only has around 200 more T/R modules than the APG-81. It looks to me like it has 800 more modules. Some estimates peg the APG-81 at 1,200 modules while the APG-77 is at around 2000+. But these are mostly estimates, if you have more precises sources then I have no problem with that.

The F-22's sheer kinematic performance comes largely by being overkill in all aerodynamic fronts, engine power, wing and control surface sizes, drag, etc. It was literally built to be too fast, too agile, too powerful.

The F-35 is great, but the kinematic concept was more in line with, fast enough, agile enough, powerful enough to win any gun fight. (remember I'm a big fan and defender of just how awesome the F-35's kinematics are)

Just imagine, even when it can rate like a Viper, point and shoot like a Hornet and has DAS. Raptor pilots still say in WVR they smoke F-35s.

The APG-81 has over 1600 T/R modules.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 23 Apr 2018, 09:32
by hornetfinn
wrightwing wrote:The APG-81 has over 1600 T/R modules.


Yes, F-35 has very large nose for its size. It's visibly bigger than in Super Hornet or Eurofighter Typhoon, not to mention smaller noses in Dassault Rafale, F-16 or JAS Gripen. It's not much different to F-22 actually and so it's not surprising that it has so large radar with a lot of modules. Idea has clearly been maximizing SA with largest possible radar antenna.

IIRC, it was something like this:
Rafale, F-16, Gripen AESA radars are somewhere around 850-1000 modules
Super Hornet has about 1300 -1400
Eurofighter about 1400-1500
F-35 somewhat over 1600
F-22 about 2000

I think F-15 AESAs also have roughly 2000 modules.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 23 Apr 2018, 12:03
by ricnunes
Corsair1963 wrote:Honestly, I don't take any such proposal as serious! First, it would be "extremely" expensive. While, taking a good twenty years to design, develop, test, and field. By which time China, Europe, and the US won't be far from fielding 6th Generation Types.



Nonetheless, as I have been saying all along. My guess (opinion) is Japan will continue to acquire F-35's. Then is another decade or so she will join with a partner or partners to develop a future 6th Generation Fighter.


I fully agree with you Corsair!

IMO and in case the Japanese future fighter (F-3?) ever comes to reality it would be a modified and slightly bigger F-35 - Note the word "slightly", it wouldn't be much bigger because and like someone else here already pointed out, if this aircraft would be a quite bigger than the F-35 than this would (also IMO) need a major/huge redesign (almost from scratch).
Again if this aircraft ever comes into fruition I believe/bet that it would be less than 25% bigger than a F-35 and otherwise not much different from what a F-2 is different from a F-16.

Since such aircraft would be slightly bigger it could have for example those small side weapon bays for Sidewinders (or other short range A2A missiles) "borrowed" from the F-22 and have longer (main) weapon bays which would allow it to carry the indigenous AAM-4 medium-range missile (which doesn't fit inside the F-35 weapons bay) and this would be IMO the main purpose that I can see for such aircraft, this apart from "national pride" and further development of the indigenous fighter aircraft industry, of course.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 23 Apr 2018, 16:38
by megui
Considering their past failure to purchase F-22 and involvement in recent tradewar, it's hardly convincing that they'd be much willing to pay a bill of multi billion or more for US in exchange for nerfed version (maybe, see F-15J) of such Super Raptor :roll:

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 23 Apr 2018, 17:30
by mixelflick
I'm not buying this F-22/35 hydrid rumor...

Japan is already buying the F-35, likely to equip both their air force and navy. For the theatre, it's going to have outstanding range. It's sensors are going to give pilots and the warfighter tremendous SA, and that's before it starts integrating with AEGIS cruisers, other assets etc.. It will best the best Russian and Chinese fighters handily. And it will cost around $80 million or less by the time this F-22/35 hybrid emerges (which will undoubtedly run well over $100 million). This thing has F-2 written all over it IMO, and Japan stands to lose big if it goes this route.

IMO, they would do better to invest their $ in additional F-35's. Post 2020 the price only drops and the capabilities (better engines, sensors, weapons) get more robust. They have 42 on order with a further 20 said to be on the way as well.

62 F-35's and how many of these F-22/35 hybrids? Say, 50? I'd much rather field a force of 150 - 200 F-35's as quantity has a quality all its own.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 23 Apr 2018, 19:40
by marsavian
I am totally buying the rumor. How long had they been coveting the F-22A ? No matter they will co-develop the F-22B instead. Why though ? Because they want a high altitude high speed stealth interceptor/dogfighter to replace their F-15s. It's going to be minimal external changes though I believe so they can take the F-22 flight envelope as is with perhaps only more powerful fuel efficient engines to increase range. Add some form of IRST and maybe LRF as well as a GaN AESA upgrade and it's ready to go. LMT and Japan can then sell it to other countries who have a similar yearning.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 23 Apr 2018, 19:57
by geforcerfx
I would take the F-35C let japan do what Israel did and put in there own avionics, lighten the air frame from the carrier requirement down to 31,000-32,000lbs and put in the upgraded F135 engine with the eventual plan to have the triple stream in there eventually. You get better high altitude flying characteristics thanks to the larger wing and control surfaces, you get more power thanks to weight saving and upgraded engines and Japan can put in there own avionics. If the USAF ends up liking it they can config it back to normal F-35 avionics and add a few of them in place of some F-35A's, might let them retire the F-22 early and save some $. Or gives them a cheaper safer fall back on PCA if funding becomes a problem.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 23 Apr 2018, 20:13
by marsavian
The F-35C transonic/supersonic acceleration is poor because the more popular F-35A was the F-35 variant chosen to optimize the area rule for. You are also left with Mach 1.6 top speed. It's not going to be replacing any F-22A/F-35A unless they actually modify and optimize the F-35C airframe too. Also where is the F-22 component in your design as in the original link or is this just what you think they should do instead ?

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 23 Apr 2018, 22:29
by geforcerfx
marsavian wrote:The F-35C transonic/supersonic acceleration is poor because the more popular F-35A was the F-35 variant chosen to optimize the area rule for. You are also left with Mach 1.6 top speed. It's not going to be replacing any F-22A/F-35A unless they actually modify and optimize the F-35C airframe too. Also where is the F-22 component in your design as in the original link or is this just what you think they should do instead ?


I don't know what more they are going to pull from the F-22, the F-35's design was already based off design experience in the F-22. The last time they did this they did simple changes to a already existing and in production aircraft. So I see the design being far more F-35 based then F-22 based. Most of your acceleration issues come from the weight and the wing on the F-35C, larger wing = more drag, I am using the C's wing more for a size reference would the sweep need to be changed? maybe. Then you have another 6,000lbs of empty weight over the A variant and another 1,000lbs of fuel when loaded, but the same engine. Mach 1.6 is the tested max speed, i'm sure some day it will end up going beyond that, talking with F-35A pilots that have been up to it with combat loads they know it's a artificial wall(they were still accelerating and had a lot of power left). It's a start at the very least, and it would be something Japan could actually afford to do. They can make the argument again that this is for improving there ability to produce fighters locally, but seeing as how they spent billions more to make some (94) modified F-16's and never made another home brewed fighter after that I don't see it as much of a sound investment. The market for high performance Stealth aircraft is pretty small and the F-35 has already gobbled up a lot of it.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 23 Apr 2018, 22:59
by ricnunes
geforcerfx wrote:Mach 1.6 is the tested max speed, i'm sure some day it will end up going beyond that, talking with F-35A pilots that have been up to it with combat loads they know it's a artificial wall(they were still accelerating and had a lot of power left).


Precisely!
And also lets not forget that the F-35 reaches the speed of Mach 1.6 with a full internal weapons load of 2x2000lb bombs plus 2xAMRAAMs. I imagine that with an internal Air-to-Air weapons loadout only, like 4xAMRAAMs or even 6xAMRAAMs that the F-35 would surpass that Mach 1.6 speed even more easily.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 23 Apr 2018, 23:30
by geforcerfx
I wonder if Boeing would try to pull the Silent Eagle back out of the bag again.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 23 Apr 2018, 23:46
by marsavian
geforcerfx wrote:I wonder if Boeing would try to pull the Silent Eagle back out of the bag again.

Well they are being asked too so it's a strong possibility. Certainly would be cheaper than resurrecting the Raptor.

In addition to a proposal from Lockheed, Japan is hoping for responses from Boeing Co, which makes the F/A-18 Super Hornet multirole fighter, and BAE Systems Plc, which is part of the consortium that built the Eurofighter Typhoon high-altitude interceptor.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 24 Apr 2018, 00:44
by madrat
You could just as well adapt the F-35C with ADVENT technology and F-35A's internal bay arrangements. The USAF will probably force an F-35A derivative if forced to be a fork off the JSF. The F-35 has the thrust equivalent to an F-15A and could get the thrust dialed in for the mission using ADVENT technologies. It's not the airframe that limits F-35 top speed in every case, it's also the engine. The derivative would need a skin that can handle Mach 2, sure, but it helps if the engine can provide the thrust at that velocity, too.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 24 Apr 2018, 05:24
by Fox1
I don't envision the Japanese taking an F-35 derivative. They are already in the F-35 game and will be buying a significant number more. It appears that Japan wants a DEDICATED air superiority fighter with F-22 type kinematics to go along with their F-35's. Not even a modified F-35 is going to give them that sort of performance.

The F-35 is a fine aircraft with incredible capabilities. I'm glad we're gonna have a bunch of them in our air arm, as well as that of our allies. But the F-35 will never have the raw performance the F-22 delivers in the A2A roie and I think that performance is what Japan is looking for. They want something capable of dominating against the J-20, J-31 and Su-57 and want an aircraft that holds all the cards in an A2A fight. They want speed/supercruise, something that can perform at high altitude, extreme maneuverability, etc. I can't blame them for that. Hell, I want that for our own forces. While the F-35 will be a fine multi-role fighter/attack aircraft, the Raptor or at least a Raptor-like platform will always be superior in the A2A role.

If you could combine the F-35's brains with the F-22's brawn, then you have the perfect fighter.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 24 Apr 2018, 09:57
by zero-one
geforcerfx wrote: Mach 1.6 is the tested max speed, i'm sure some day it will end up going beyond that, talking with F-35A pilots that have been up to it with combat loads they know it's a artificial wall(they were still accelerating and had a lot of power left).


a major limiting factor for this is the Divertless Supersonic Inlet. Conventional engines cannot injest supersonic air. So Supersonic aircraft need things like intake ramps like on the F-14 or variable intakes like on the F-15 to slow down the air in the intake to subsonic.

But the F-35 uses an instake design that can do this without any moving parts. however it can only do it up to Mach 1.6, so power is not really the issue why it can't go past Mach 1.6

By the way how does the F-22 do it?

Fox1 wrote: They want something capable of dominating against the J-20, J-31 and Su-57 and want an aircraft that holds all the cards in an A2A fight. They want speed/supercruise, something that can perform at high altitude, extreme maneuverability, etc. .


Perfectly said

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 24 Apr 2018, 12:11
by hornetfinn
zero-one wrote:
geforcerfx wrote: Mach 1.6 is the tested max speed, i'm sure some day it will end up going beyond that, talking with F-35A pilots that have been up to it with combat loads they know it's a artificial wall(they were still accelerating and had a lot of power left).


a major limiting factor for this is the Divertless Supersonic Inlet. Conventional engines cannot injest supersonic air. So Supersonic aircraft need things like intake ramps like on the F-14 or variable intakes like on the F-15 to slow down the air in the intake to subsonic.

But the F-35 uses an instake design that can do this without any moving parts. however it can only do it up to Mach 1.6, so power is not really the issue why it can't go past Mach 1.6

By the way how does the F-22 do it?


AFAIK, fixed intake design is optimized to some speed range and in F-22 that speed just happens to be higher than in F-35. F-35 was also designed to be fairly inexpensive to procure and operate. Limiting top speed was one way to achieve that whereas in F-22 economy was not very high priority. It seems that F-35 would happily go faster than Mach 1.6 but there seems to be very little sense in that.

Interesting things to read about F-22 design:
http://www.f22fighter.com/AffordableStealth.pdf
https://patents.google.com/patent/US4989807

The F-22 design reduces the engine signature by hiding the engine behind a serpentine inlet duct; a technique referred to as line-of-sight blockage. One hundred percent line-of-sight blockage means that the front of the engine cannot be viewed from outside the aircraft. The Raptor’s engine inlet design is based on many hours of wind tunnel testing. The
Raptor has a fixed ramp external compression inlet with internal boundary layer porous bleed off-takes. The long diffuser duct (l/D = 6.35) provides excellent low distortion characteristics. The inlet has no variable geometry devices; inlet stability characteristics and variable bypass provide stable airflow over the entire flight envelope with no throttle or maneuver restrictions. The inlet edges are designed to reduce signature and align with the wing leading edges

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 24 Apr 2018, 12:14
by fbw
zero-one wrote:
geforcerfx wrote: Mach 1.6 is the tested max speed, i'm sure some day it will end up going beyond that, talking with F-35A pilots that have been up to it with combat loads they know it's a artificial wall(they were still accelerating and had a lot of power left).


a major limiting factor for this is the Divertless Supersonic Inlet. Conventional engines cannot injest supersonic air. So Supersonic aircraft need things like intake ramps like on the F-14 or variable intakes like on the F-15 to slow down the air in the intake to subsonic.

But the F-35 uses an instake design that can do this without any moving parts. however it can only do it up to Mach 1.6, so power is not really the issue why it can't go past Mach 1.6


From what I recall reading the research on DSI testing, the inlet was efficient up to Mach 1.7-8. Spillage increases above that but not exponentially. Since the F-35 exceeded Mach 1.6 in testing, it is obviously not the aerodynamic limit. I would guess two reasons, thermal issues and testing. The A/C are 700 knot aircraft and the B, less. The “C” can only reach that at higher alt. Why alter materials and testing for one variant to exceed 700 knots.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 24 Apr 2018, 15:02
by mixelflick
More info from theaviationist.com...

https://theaviationist.com/2018/04/23/l ... -to-japan/

I agree with the poster stating Japan wants more of an F-22 airframe. The F-35 avionics and other tricks will be ported over, along with updated weapons. The USAF would be nuts to pass on this, as it's an excellent back up plan for any 6th gen/PCA problems. The only issue is timing: It's going to take a good 15 years to perfect this thing, even if the USAF/Japan fast track it. New capabilities above and beyond the Raptor ain't going to be easy to develop.

And that brings us to circa 2030, when the first PCA should be entering service (if there aren't any delays, and there always are). Like any good boxer or wrestler, you can't keep the F-22 down!

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 24 Apr 2018, 16:32
by zero-one
This is actually what confuses me.
According to this:
http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/11 ... he-verdict

-Approximately $50 billion to procure 194 additional F-22s

-Total includes an estimate of approximately $7 billion to $10 billion for non-recurring start-up costs and $40.4 billion for aircraft procurement costs

-An estimated cost of $206 million to $216 million per aircraft


Question, when this study was taken into account. did they envision an exact reproduction of the last F-22 produced in 2012? because that one has hardware that is no longer produced like the computer boxes that are the bane of the F-22's troubled upgrade path.


If Japan decides to pitch in and get some of those Raptors, wouldn't that reduce the cost drastically.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 24 Apr 2018, 22:30
by geforcerfx
zero-one wrote:This is actually what confuses me.
According to this:
http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/11 ... he-verdict

-Approximately $50 billion to procure 194 additional F-22s

-Total includes an estimate of approximately $7 billion to $10 billion for non-recurring start-up costs and $40.4 billion for aircraft procurement costs

-An estimated cost of $206 million to $216 million per aircraft


Question, when this study was taken into account. did they envision an exact reproduction of the last F-22 produced in 2012? because that one has hardware that is no longer produced like the computer boxes that are the bane of the F-22's troubled upgrade path.


If Japan decides to pitch in and get some of those Raptors, wouldn't that reduce the cost drastically.


Japan buying them would still add cost, if we updated the avionics and computer systems for a USAF customer only then the level of tamper protection and security could stay the same. By adding a export customer you would have to spend more $ and time to tamper proof and add extra security measures to your software and operations. This added complexity and takes more time.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 25 Apr 2018, 03:07
by Corsair1963
This whole F-22/F-35 hybrid story is far more fiction than fact! First, Lockheed Martin has "proposed" such an aircraft. Yet, we've seen nothing to suggest that Japan is even remotely interested in it??? Remember, this is hardly the only proposal on the table.


Nonetheless, in my opinion the current plan is the most likely course as I see it.........


1.) Japan will continue to acquire F-35's. Which, could (?) even include some F-35B's.
2.) They will join with a partner or partners to jointly develop not a 5th Generation but a 6th Generation one. This likely would occur in the next few years. (maybe even later) In addition I would add one of those partners likely will be the US. Which, currently has two 6th Generation Fighters at the early stages of development. (F-X and NGAD)

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 25 Apr 2018, 04:07
by Fox1
I think a new (and improved) production Raptor could be put into service far sooner than any of these 6th Generation proposals. We're just now starting to grasp the full potential of 5th generation technologies. IMO, it will be many years before the 6th Gen stuff appears, much less becomes mature enough to use. I believe any notions that we will have a legit 6th generation fighter ready for production within the next 20 years are wildly optimistic. I'd bet the true numbers will be closer to 40 years. We all witnessed how much the schedule slipped on the F-22 and F-35 programs. Just imagine what will happen with a project twice as complex.

Count me as one of the people who prefers incremental improvements to mature technologies as opposed to bold leaps. The former usually develops into a useful product with few teething problems. The latter is usually a nightmare. A 5.5 Generation bird in the hand is worth more than two 6th generation birds in a bush. One is readily attainable. The other is vaporware.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 25 Apr 2018, 04:57
by SpudmanWP
Corsair1963 wrote:This whole F-22/F-35 hybrid story is far more fiction than fact! First, Lockheed Martin has "proposed" such an aircraft. Yet, we've seen nothing to suggest that Japan is even remotely interested in it??? Remember, this is hardly the only proposal on the table.


LM is responding to an RFI

Lockheed has discussed the idea with Japanese defense ministry officials and will make a formal proposal in response to a Japanese request for information (RFI) after it receives permission from the U.S. government to offer the sensitive military technology, said the sources, who have direct knowledge of the proposal.

...

In addition to a proposal from Lockheed, Japan is hoping for responses from Boeing Co, which makes the F/A-18 Super Hornet multirole fighter, and BAE Systems Plc, which is part of the consortium that built the Eurofighter Typhoon high-altitude interceptor.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-japa ... SKBN1HR0MM

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 25 Apr 2018, 05:12
by nutshell
I just cant see a single reason why LM would agree to this.

Edit: as to simply fuse F35 electronics into the Raptor unless the US will greatly help with tooling and production issues.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 25 Apr 2018, 05:18
by Corsair1963
SpudmanWP wrote:
LM is responding to an RFI


As are the other companies.....what's your point???


Lockheed has discussed the idea with Japanese defense ministry officials and will make a formal proposal in response to a Japanese request for information (RFI) after it receives permission from the U.S. government to offer the sensitive military technology, said the sources, who have direct knowledge of the proposal.

...

In addition to a proposal from Lockheed, Japan is hoping for responses from Boeing Co, which makes the F/A-18 Super Hornet multirole fighter, and BAE Systems Plc, which is part of the consortium that built the Eurofighter Typhoon high-altitude interceptor.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-japa ... SKBN1HR0MM



My point as Japan has sent out RFI's to several companies.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 25 Apr 2018, 05:21
by Corsair1963
nutshell wrote:I just cant see a single reason why LM would agree to this.

Edit: as to simply fuse F35 electronics into the Raptor unless the US will greatly help with tooling and production issues.



Sure Japan sends out an RFI. So, they have to come up with something??? Hense F-22/F-35 hybrid.....Yet, hardly means they will select it or even any of the others.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 25 Apr 2018, 05:41
by SpudmanWP
we've seen nothing to suggest that Japan is even remotely interested in it


Since it was an RFI then Japan by the very definition of an RFI is "interested in it"

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 25 Apr 2018, 05:51
by Corsair1963
SpudmanWP wrote:
we've seen nothing to suggest that Japan is even remotely interested in it


Since it was an RFI then Japan by the very definition of an RFI is "interested in it"



Only in a very general sense........You think India was really interested in the Mig-35 for the MMRCA??? Yet, they placed an RFI with Russia.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 25 Apr 2018, 05:52
by marsavian
I think a new (and improved) production Raptor could be put into service far sooner than any of these 6th Generation proposals.


6th generation does not exist or even is proposed yet. There is no new technology proposed that warrants a next generation step label. Even broadband stealth isn't it because with judicious application of RAM you can make your natural narrowband stealth shape more broadband in nature as applied on all existing 5th generation aircraft. It will take something radical now like directed energy weapons and/or hypersonics to warrant a 6th generation label.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 25 Apr 2018, 05:55
by Corsair1963
Honestly, I doubt very much that Japan will pursue any of them.



Of course that is just my personal opinion.... :wink:

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 25 Apr 2018, 06:20
by Corsair1963
marsavian wrote:
6th generation does not exist or even is proposed yet. There is no new technology proposed that warrants a next generation step label. Even broadband stealth isn't it because with judicious application of RAM you can make your natural narrowband stealth shape more broadband in nature as applied on all existing 5th generation aircraft. It will take something radical now like directed energy weapons and/or hypersonics to warrant a 6th generation label.



While, there isn't a fixed design in development. All of the big US Military Aerospace Companies (LM, NG, Boeing, P&W, GE, etc. etc.) are all working on a number of Concepts and Technologies. Which, will mature into a future 6th Generation Fighter Program in the coming decades.

Nonetheless, the issue I have with this so-called F-22/F-35 hybrid. Is it still would require vast sums of resources and take many many years to design, develop, test, and to field. So, what will Japan gain when all said and done??? She will have a 5.5 Generation Fighter. Which, will soon be surpassed by 6th Generation Fighters. Sound familiar??? Kind of like Europe took a half step and developed the Typhoon and Rafale. (i.e. 4.5 Gen) Which, were shortly overtaken by the F-22 and now the F-35. (i.e. 5th Gen)

Honestly, I think Japan wants to gain far more in the way of technology and build and even closer partnership with the US. None of those proposed fighters in the recent RFI will do that. Which, is why I believe Japan will reject them and pursue. A future partnership in a 6th Generation Fighter Program.



"IMHO"

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 25 Apr 2018, 07:12
by geforcerfx
Fox1 wrote:I think a new (and improved) production Raptor could be put into service far sooner than any of these 6th Generation proposals. We're just now starting to grasp the full potential of 5th generation technologies. IMO, it will be many years before the 6th Gen stuff appears, much less becomes mature enough to use. I believe any notions that we will have a legit 6th generation fighter ready for production within the next 20 years are wildly optimistic. I'd bet the true numbers will be closer to 40 years. We all witnessed how much the schedule slipped on the F-22 and F-35 programs. Just imagine what will happen with a project twice as complex.

Count me as one of the people who prefers incremental improvements to mature technologies as opposed to bold leaps. The former usually develops into a useful product with few teething problems. The latter is usually a nightmare. A 5.5 Generation bird in the hand is worth more than two 6th generation birds in a bush. One is readily attainable. The other is vaporware.



That's how the USAF is approaching PCA, the airframe will be the only truly "new advanced" aspect, newest composites newest stealth shaping and tech. The avionics and engines and weapons at the beginning will be carry over from the F-35/F-22 programs. In the future when the tech is ready they will implement it. I agree we are just figuring out what our 5th gen tech can do, but what we have figured out is we need something a little bit better airframe wise over the F-22. We need range and payload the F-22 can't deliver and might as well throw in some more stealth if your going to make a new aircraft.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 25 Apr 2018, 07:49
by hornetfinn
Just imagine what a hybrid, which combines best qualities from F-22 and F-35 together, could be. Naturally it would have the size and flight performance of F-22 with something like 28,000 lb of internal fuel (F-35 fuel volume in bigger airframe). Even with F119 engines it would have really good range. Weapons bays could hold something like 8-10 AMRAAM and 2 AIM-9X for air-to-air. Maybe something like 2 2,000 lb class weapons, 4 SDB and 2 AIM-9X for air-to-ground or similar. Of course it would have all the avionics from F-35 with larger AESA radar (GaN radar could well be developed for this).

Of course it might be impossible (with current tech) to get all the good qualities of F-22 and F-35 at the same time and with reasonable budget...

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 25 Apr 2018, 08:10
by popcorn
So how would the US military, specially the AF, think about another country potentially possessing an aircraft that would outclass anything in the US arsenal? Granted that Japan is a close ally but I don't think that will sit well with them. At the very least the US would need to acquire any new hybrid jet and incorporate some unique US capabilities or proceed with a superior 6Gen design.
Back when Dozer was posting on Fencecheck, he diplomatically sidestepped the F-22 export ban issue but noted that it was comforting that only the USAF would operate Raptors.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 25 Apr 2018, 09:33
by mk82
I have a gut feeling that the Japanese will ultimately balk at the developmental and procurement costs of an F22/F35 hybrid even if this F22/F35 hybrid proposal ends up being a joint program with the US (especially if only a limited number of this F22/F35 hybrid is procured). It smells like the F2 program part Deux!

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 25 Apr 2018, 09:37
by mk82
On the political side.....Shinzo Abe is on shaky ground currently and I suspect that the Japanese public (a majority of them anyway) are not in the mood for anymore excessive Japanese MOD spending.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 25 Apr 2018, 09:57
by zero-one
Its been posted several times that Pentagon does not want another 20 year development program, they will use a lot of mature or existing tech.

So I think PCA or NGAD could look like a 5+ gen or 5.5 gen that can be further enhanced to finally reach 6th gen eventually.

But who cares, its just a name, Everyone calls the Su-57 a 5th gen fighter even if its really just a Flanker with more sensors and frontal stealth. I'd say its more of a 4.8 gen.

So PCA could be:
-F-22 airframe
-PW-F119-220 (Enhanced performance engines)
-APG-77V2
-DAS
-AIRST
-AN\ALQ-94

Point is, its not going to look like a giant leap in capabilities like what the F-22 and F-35 was compared to the F-15 and F-16s they replaced. But I think it will have the potential to grow develop into a real 6th gen.


hornetfinn wrote:Just imagine what a hybrid, which combines best qualities from F-22 and F-35 together, could be. Naturally it would have the size and flight performance of F-22 with something like 28,000 lb of internal fuel (F-35 fuel volume in bigger airframe). Even with F119 engines it would have really good range. Weapons bays could hold something like 8-10 AMRAAM and 2 AIM-9X for air-to-air. Maybe something like 2 2,000 lb class weapons, 4 SDB and 2 AIM-9X for air-to-ground or similar. Of course it would have all the avionics from F-35 with larger AESA radar (GaN radar could well be developed for this).


I'm not sure how they'll fit 10,000 lbs more fuel and enlarged weapons bays into the thing without making it extremely large. They did it with the F-35 by making it bulkier, it looks fatter than the streamlined and sexy Raptor.
(Note: I love the way the F-35 looks, specially the C model)


But the F-22 is already the heaviest air superiority fighter ever built at 43,000 lbs empty, so something this big might be pushing it to 55 or 60,000 pound territory

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 25 Apr 2018, 12:51
by Dragon029
I have major doubts that the F-22 would be used for PCA; a big part of the PCA concept is to have something that can penetrate (alongside the B-21) enemy IADS, etc that would have even the F-35 relying on stand-off weapons.

It is definitely true that they really don't want another 20 year development program, but using an outdated airframe as the basis isn't the answer in my opinion; you don't want to build a brand new house if your foundation is going to become unreliable in 20 years time.

In my opinion, the PCA will initially be a new airframe, probably using new adaptive cycle engines (maybe using two of the exact same models scheduled to undergo EMD for the F-35 from 2020-2025 and later potentially having tweaked variants for unique supercruise or thermal management requirements), but using a large amount of MOTS avionics and vehicle systems from the F-35 and F-22, thereby reducing certification time on subsystems and allowing the overall system to go into envelope expansion, weapons integration and operational test far quicker.

Then when it comes to the Block II PCA they can introduce new sub-systems like new sensors, DEWs, upgraded vehicle systems like a beefier IPP compared to the F-35's, etc.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 25 Apr 2018, 13:49
by Fox1
The more I hear about the PCA, the more I am reminded of the FB-22 concept.

Image

It would also seem to fit nicely into the notion of further developing existing technologies and adding new ones as they emerge.

While the FB-22 was envisioned as a modern F-111 of sorts, it possesses most of the qualities you'd want in a penetrating counter air machine....greatly increased range over the F-22/F-35, more weapons capacity, and improved stealth. Yet it would retain the ability for supersonic flight and still be fairly agile for an aircraft this size.

I would not at all be surprised if Lockheed Martin dusts off whatever preliminary research they may have conducted on the FB-22 and incorporate that into their PCA candidate. On the surface, that basic design seems to check all the boxes of what you'd want in a PCA air frame.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 25 Apr 2018, 14:26
by zero-one
Dragon029 wrote:I have major doubts that the F-22 would be used for PCA; a big part of the PCA concept is to have something that can penetrate (alongside the B-21) enemy IADS, etc that would have even the F-35 relying on stand-off weapons.


I don't really think its possible to make a fighter sized aircraft, have the range of a Strategic bomber. The goal has always been to have the long range escort fighter fly far enough to escort the bombers to the target and back to safe airspace. These escorts are designed to operate from forward operating bases much closer to the target.
the P-51, F-4, F-15 and F-22 were all designed with this in mind.

Now to get around this you can either have super efficient engines like (ADVENT) or have a bomber sized air-frame or have very stealthy air refueling fleets.

Combinations of the 3 to a degree could also work. Something like:
Advent + small bomber sized airframe + Stealth tankers.

I'm not a big fan of the idea that we should forgo kinematic performance for range, thats a whole can of worms I don't want to open

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 25 Apr 2018, 15:03
by marsavian
Dimensions wise I see the PCA as a cross between a FB-22 and a theoretical twin engined F-35C. So big aerodynamically efficient stealthy delta wing, no tail, twin ~50 klbf TVC fuel efficient engines, 50-55klb empty weight, 45-50klb fuel. It would still have a take off wet thrust/weight ratio around unity and more like 1.3-1.5 over the combat zone. Combat radius around 850nm. Something that would still need tanker support or disposable external tanks but it would go further in and stealthier than a F-22 or F-35.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 25 Apr 2018, 15:13
by Fox1
zero-one wrote:
Dragon029 wrote:I have major doubts that the F-22 would be used for PCA; a big part of the PCA concept is to have something that can penetrate (alongside the B-21) enemy IADS, etc that would have even the F-35 relying on stand-off weapons.


I don't really think its possible to make a fighter sized aircraft, have the range of a Strategic bomber. The goal has always been to have the long range escort fighter fly far enough to escort the bombers to the target and back to safe airspace. These escorts are designed to operate from forward operating bases much closer to the target.
the P-51, F-4, F-15 and F-22 were all designed with this in mind.

Now to get around this you can either have super efficient engines like (ADVENT) or have a bomber sized air-frame or have very stealthy air refueling fleets.

Combinations of the 3 to a degree could also work. Something like:
Advent + small bomber sized airframe + Stealth tankers.

I'm not a big fan of the idea that we should forgo kinematic performance for range, thats a whole can of worms I don't want to open


I strongly agree. I've seen some people go so far as to advocate for what is basically a subsonic flying wing type design for the PCA. If stealth, range and payload are the only important factors, then just give the B-2 and B-21 the AMRAAM and let them escort themselves.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 25 Apr 2018, 15:26
by geforcerfx
marsavian wrote:Dimensions wise I see the PCA as a cross between a FB-22 and a theoretical twin engined F-35C. So big aerodynamically efficient stealthy delta wing, no tail, twin ~50 klbf TVC fuel efficient engines, 50-55klb empty weight, 45-50klb fuel. It would still have a take off wet thrust/weight ratio around unity and more like 1.3-1.5 over the combat zone. Combat radius around 850nm. Something that would still need tanker support or disposable external tanks but it would go further in and stealthier than a F-22 or F-35.


Why would your design that's carrying 2.5 times the internal fuel of a F-22 have only 600nmi great range on the radius? if that thing had 45,000lbs of fuel on board and had a empty weight of 55k you have a 1400+nmi combat radius fighter, easily. That would be the first fighter aircraft to have a 50% fuel fraction, highest atm is Su-35 and F-35A at 37%.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 25 Apr 2018, 19:32
by charlielima223
People are always mentioning the cost of re-opening the F-22 production. While I agree that upgrading the F-22 is difficult because of dated software and hardware, wouldn't newer means of production lead to more efficient and possibly be less costly then original estimates? Wouldn't a re-opening of F-22 production line benefit from more advanced production methods pioneered by the F-35 production line?

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 25 Apr 2018, 19:43
by SpudmanWP
That would mean new parts which means a lot of new certification testing...

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 25 Apr 2018, 23:50
by geforcerfx
charlielima223 wrote:People are always mentioning the cost of re-opening the F-22 production. While I agree that upgrading the F-22 is difficult because of dated software and hardware, wouldn't newer means of production lead to more efficient and possibly be less costly then original estimates? Wouldn't a re-opening of F-22 production line benefit from more advanced production methods pioneered by the F-35 production line?


Now you have to run a 5 year test program as well, since you have probably changed 30-40% of the aircraft's structure, all the software has to be tested and coded and debugged from the avionic changes. That's the issue the USAF has with reopening the F-22 line, by the time you design your F-22 again, get the line setup, and start producing and testing aircraft it's been 10 years. And you have a slightly better F-22 that still has a lot of the designs draw backs. If your going to go through that much effort, time and money you might as well make a new jet. This allows you can truly modify the design to fit new theaters and missions you hadn't originally planned the F-22 for. Basically reopening the F-22 line would only hurt the USAF, sure we might have 400 F-22's but some F-35's prob got cut and PCA would be dead, and the F-22 can't do the missions they want PCA to do.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 26 Apr 2018, 05:33
by Corsair1963
mk82 wrote:I have a gut feeling that the Japanese will ultimately balk at the developmental and procurement costs of an F22/F35 hybrid even if this F22/F35 hybrid proposal ends up being a joint program with the US (especially if only a limited number of this F22/F35 hybrid is procured). It smells like the F2 program part Deux!


Japan currently can't afford to acquire F-35's are the rate it would like.... :?

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 26 Apr 2018, 05:37
by Corsair1963
charlielima223 wrote:People are always mentioning the cost of re-opening the F-22 production. While I agree that upgrading the F-22 is difficult because of dated software and hardware, wouldn't newer means of production lead to more efficient and possibly be less costly then original estimates? Wouldn't a re-opening of F-22 production line benefit from more advanced production methods pioneered by the F-35 production line?



Just returning the F-22 to production would be extremely expensive. Let alone some F-22/F-35 hybrid.....In addition we've seen few details. So, maybe what they are really proposing is just an upgraded F-35. Which, would be more tailored to a Air Superiority Mission than todays Multi-Role Aircraft.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 26 Apr 2018, 05:42
by Corsair1963
mk82 wrote:On the political side.....Shinzo Abe is on shaky ground currently and I suspect that the Japanese public (a majority of them anyway) are not in the mood for anymore excessive Japanese MOD spending.



Yes, Shinzo Abe will be lucky to find enough funding for all the F-35's he needs today. (to counter China) Plus, I think many have forgotten the F-2 Project. Which, was cut short over extremely high costs. :shock:

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 26 Apr 2018, 06:18
by geforcerfx
Corsair you can quote multiple posts in one post if you didn't know. Just scroll down on the post screen and select the user's post you want to quote like normal. It just ends up looking nicer.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 26 Apr 2018, 06:21
by Corsair1963
geforcerfx wrote:Corsair you can quote multiple posts in one post if you didn't know. Just scroll down on the post screen and select the user's post you want to quote like normal. It just ends up looking nicer.



Thank You

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 27 Apr 2018, 00:22
by Dragon029
zero-one wrote:
Dragon029 wrote:I have major doubts that the F-22 would be used for PCA; a big part of the PCA concept is to have something that can penetrate (alongside the B-21) enemy IADS, etc that would have even the F-35 relying on stand-off weapons.


I don't really think its possible to make a fighter sized aircraft, have the range of a Strategic bomber. The goal has always been to have the long range escort fighter fly far enough to escort the bombers to the target and back to safe airspace. These escorts are designed to operate from forward operating bases much closer to the target.
the P-51, F-4, F-15 and F-22 were all designed with this in mind.

Now to get around this you can either have super efficient engines like (ADVENT) or have a bomber sized air-frame or have very stealthy air refueling fleets.

Combinations of the 3 to a degree could also work. Something like:
Advent + small bomber sized airframe + Stealth tankers.

I'm not a big fan of the idea that we should forgo kinematic performance for range, thats a whole can of worms I don't want to open


The general figure speculated for the PCA's combat radius is 1000nmi or a little higher; you can get close to / approximately that combat radius with an adaptive cycle engine in an F-35A, with an air-to-air loadout, but that loadout will be somewhat limited, and you won't be able to carry any directed energy weapons without range penalties (likely major ones (eg: -30%) unless it's a semi-permanent payload module that goes into a weapons bay with a low-drag turret). Also you'd be limited in your ability to intercept incoming fighters as afterburner usage would quickly chip away at your fuel reserves required to get back home, and ideally you don't want the B-21 to be slowing down / loitering while you fly subsonic for an intercept.

Ultimately my money is on the PCA being more like what marsavian suggested, except with smaller fuel tanks (something around 30-35,000lb should be plenty).

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 27 Apr 2018, 05:44
by disconnectedradical
zero-one wrote:Its been posted several times that Pentagon does not want another 20 year development program, they will use a lot of mature or existing tech.

So I think PCA or NGAD could look like a 5+ gen or 5.5 gen that can be further enhanced to finally reach 6th gen eventually.

But who cares, its just a name, Everyone calls the Su-57 a 5th gen fighter even if its really just a Flanker with more sensors and frontal stealth. I'd say its more of a 4.8 gen.

So PCA could be:
-F-22 airframe
-PW-F119-220 (Enhanced performance engines)
-APG-77V2
-DAS
-AIRST
-AN\ALQ-94

Point is, its not going to look like a giant leap in capabilities like what the F-22 and F-35 was compared to the F-15 and F-16s they replaced. But I think it will have the potential to grow develop into a real 6th gen.


F-22 is not cutting edge anymore it’s 90s tech so making PCA just a souped up F-22 sounds foolish. Lockheed and Northrup can do much better today. Even F-23 was probably better. You can’t enhance a F-22 variant into a 6th gen just like how you can’t enhance a F-15 into 5th gen

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 27 Apr 2018, 07:53
by citanon
Dragon029 wrote:
Ultimately my money is on the PCA being more like what marsavian suggested, except with smaller fuel tanks (something around 30-35,000lb should be plenty).



From public discussions of the pertinent studies so far I wonder if pca might not be divided between an unmanned, deeply penetrating sensor platforms with small munitions and manned standoff shooters with long range munitions linked by advanced directional jam proof line of sight communications.

That would give the penetrating sensors extra range, persistence and stealth while keeping humans in control and out of harm's way.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 28 Apr 2018, 22:03
by madrat
If you have two dozen PCA in any theater, you've essentially nudged air superiority in your favor by a considerable margin. Given the margin of technology between the US and China, you can press for 100,000 pound airframes. These are not going to be middleweight fighters.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 28 Apr 2018, 22:46
by talkitron
Can anyone critique the following claims in the article linked to below? The article sounds like nonsense to me.

1.
While the F-35 retains some radar evading capabilities, its radar cross section is over ten times greater than that of the F-22 making it far less survivable — leading some analysts to term it a “pseudo stealthy” fighter.


2.
The F-35 has less than half the range of the larger F-22 and lacks the Raptor’s advanced long ranged air-to-air missiles
The range thing seems fishy. Don't they use the same AMRAAMs?

3.
As a single engine light platform with a small arsenal of just four air-to-air missiles, restricted to a below average speed of Mach 1.6 and a very low altitude relative to the Raptor, the F-15J, and elite twin engine Chinese fighters, the F-35 hardly presents an adequate solution to counter China’s growing fleet of J-11 fighters — let alone more advanced platforms more recently deployed by Beijing such as the Su-35 or J-20.


https://thediplomat.com/2018/04/why-the ... for-japan/

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 28 Apr 2018, 22:50
by citanon
citanon wrote:
Dragon029 wrote:
Ultimately my money is on the PCA being more like what marsavian suggested, except with smaller fuel tanks (something around 30-35,000lb should be plenty).



From public discussions of the pertinent studies so far I wonder if pca might not be divided between an unmanned, deeply penetrating sensor platforms with small munitions and manned standoff shooters with long range munitions linked by advanced directional jam proof line of sight communications.

That would give the penetrating sensors extra range, persistence and stealth while keeping humans in control and out of harm's way.


A few more thoughts about range and surveillance:

1. Can you get extra range and persistence out of the F35 fleet if the AF bought tanker versions of the B-21 air frame?

2. Can a large sensor platform based on the B-21 get you a deeper look into denied air space?

3. How much of the "penetration" can you get from small maneuvering satellites in neo?

After all, penetrating is mainly about persistently seeing into enemy territory and then getting weapons there. With the right weapons, sensors, and communication links, your need to physically be there can be reduced. With the right refueling concepts, your ability to persist is increased.

If sixth gen is really a system, then PCA the airplane doesn't have to do all the things.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 28 Apr 2018, 22:54
by citanon
talkitron wrote:Can anyone critique the following claims in the article linked to below? The article sounds like nonsense to me.

1.
While the F-35 retains some radar evading capabilities, its radar cross section is over ten times greater than that of the F-22 making it far less survivable — leading some analysts to term it a “pseudo stealthy” fighter.


2.
The F-35 has less than half the range of the larger F-22 and lacks the Raptor’s advanced long ranged air-to-air missiles
The range thing seems fishy. Don't they use the same AMRAAMs?

3.
As a single engine light platform with a small arsenal of just four air-to-air missiles, restricted to a below average speed of Mach 1.6 and a very low altitude relative to the Raptor, the F-15J, and elite twin engine Chinese fighters, the F-35 hardly presents an adequate solution to counter China’s growing fleet of J-11 fighters — let alone more advanced platforms more recently deployed by Beijing such as the Su-35 or J-20.


https://thediplomat.com/2018/04/why-the ... for-japan/


Wow, the basement has reached a new subterranean level. If this guy was a Dwarf in the Tolkien universe he would have struck mithril and woken up Balrog.

This is enough BS to make Pierre Sprey blush.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 29 Apr 2018, 03:15
by southernphantom
talkitron wrote:Can anyone critique the following claims in the article linked to below? The article sounds like nonsense to me.

1.
While the F-35 retains some radar evading capabilities, its radar cross section is over ten times greater than that of the F-22 making it far less survivable — leading some analysts to term it a “pseudo stealthy” fighter.


2.
The F-35 has less than half the range of the larger F-22 and lacks the Raptor’s advanced long ranged air-to-air missiles
The range thing seems fishy. Don't they use the same AMRAAMs?

3.
As a single engine light platform with a small arsenal of just four air-to-air missiles, restricted to a below average speed of Mach 1.6 and a very low altitude relative to the Raptor, the F-15J, and elite twin engine Chinese fighters, the F-35 hardly presents an adequate solution to counter China’s growing fleet of J-11 fighters — let alone more advanced platforms more recently deployed by Beijing such as the Su-35 or J-20.


https://thediplomat.com/2018/04/why-the ... for-japan/


I don't know the exact numbers, but the RCS figure may be correct. That still only translates to the F-35 being detected at twice the range of the F-22.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 29 Apr 2018, 07:26
by SpudmanWP
talkitron wrote:Can anyone critique the following claims in the article linked to below? The article sounds like nonsense to me.


1. Likely... This lines up with the F-22 being a marble and the F-35 being a golf ball... This in NO way makes it a “pseudo stealthy” fighter as the F-18 is a beach ball in comparison.

2. The range statement is complete BS. The F-35 out ranges the F-22 in "stealth mode". The F-22 will have to carry wing tanks to do better and that is only used to ferry the F-22 from one place to another. The F-35 carries the same missiles as the F-22, just 2 fewer AMRAAMs. In a few years, the F-35 will be able to carry the Meteor (for Allies) which outranges the AMRAAM. When a new, longer-ranged missile comes online in the US, the F-35's better avionics means that it can enter service with the F-35 before it can with the F-22.

3. The F-35's publicly released altitude limit is in the 50k range which is plenty and certainly not "low". The F-22 is the only plane that even has a chance to operate normally above the Mach 1.5 range. Even the vaunted F-15 which has a "paper limit" of mach 2.5 has only reached above mach 1.2 in combat about 5 times.

The article is fanboi clickbait BS.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 29 Apr 2018, 08:14
by vanshilar
talkitron wrote:https://thediplomat.com/2018/04/why-the-f-35-isnt-good-enough-for-japan/


Eh, it's nonsense.

1. There has been multiple sources stating that the F-35 is stealthier than the F-22. Some people try to qualify it by saying "maybe they mean only frontal aspect or something" but I have not seen an official source give those qualifications. Rather, older sources (i.e. before 2008) tend to say the F-22 is stealthier, while newer sources (i.e. after 2013 or so) tend to say the F-35 is stealthier.

2. The F-35 has more range than the F-22. No idea how they get that the F-35 has half the range of the F-22. Maybe they mixed up range and radius. From publicly available sources, the F-22 has a combat radius of 490 nm with 100 nm of supercruise, or 590 nm without using supercruise, while the F-35 has a combat radius of 669 nm as of the most recent SAR. (In this case, the F-22 is carrying 4 AMRAAMs and 2 1000-lb bombs, while the F-35 is carrying 2 AMRAAMs and 2 2000-lb bombs.) The F-35 has a higher fuel fraction, so unless a mission specifically requires going supersonic for significant distances, the F-35 will be able to go farther.

3. Sure, the F-35 currently can only carry 4 AMRAAMs internally. But it'll carry 6 AMRAAMs internally sometime in Block 4. Meanwhile the F-22 carries 6 AMRAAMs and 2 Sidewinders, so by early/mid 2020s, the only difference will be those 2 Sidewinders. However, if they get SACM stuff worked out, IIRC both will have pretty much the same internal loadout, since the F-35 has bigger internal bays. Of course if you're comparing with the F-15J, then I don't know if the F-15J can reach Mach 1.6 with 4 AMRAAMs (or 6) -- the F-35's Mach 1.6 is assuming full internal load. Also, when comparing with legacy planes like the F-15J, the proper comparison is of the F-35 using its external pylons as well, in which case the loadout goes up to a theoretical 14 AMRAAMs and 2 Sidewinders -- exact same as an F-22. Realistically they'll never do that though. The article then mentions "elite twin engine Chinese fighters" but those are having engine issues, so I don't know how fast they can actually go (as opposed to claim be able to go).

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 29 Apr 2018, 15:11
by mixelflick
At first, I thought this F-22/F-35 hybrid would be an excellent idea for both nations. But reading further here, I'm not so sure.

By the time it's delivered the USAF will be on the cusp of the much more advanced PCA, and Japan? They'll have likely truncated their F-35 buy to fund it. IF the F-35 is as effective air to air as exercises suggest (20:1 kill ratio), I'd much rather have (US) 1,500 F-35's and 150 or so F-22's vs. 150 F-22's, 500 F-35's and 400 of these F-22/35 hybrids.

Everyone is feeling air superiority jitters. That's not unwarranted, given the small number of F-22's to go around. But we have to live with it, thanks to Gates' and others stupid decision. Lockheed is going to have to really rev up the F-35's air to air prowess to asuage these fears, or otherwise convince partner nations it's already there.

If China is the real worry, then it becomes much more a numbers game. They'll build hundreds of J-20's, and likely even larger numbers of J-31's. Their J-10B/C and Flanker derivatives (including the SU-35) are likewise a significant threat. Only the F-35 can counter these kinds of numbers, particularly when it gets down to the target $80 million pricepoint. Countries diverting funds earmarked for F-35's that re-direct those dollars to a heavier stealth fighter.... they're falling into the same trap the Russians did with the SU-57. A few hundred (no matter how good) are not going to survive vs. an air force flush with thousands of smaller stealth aircraft + 4++ gen designs fighting alongside them.

If I were the Japanese, I'd take a hard look at what's happened with the SU-57 and take that lesson to heart. I'm not sure who in Russia was responsible for that decision, or if it was more a question of rubles they couldn't pursue a high/low mix. If a low part of the mix was on the table at some point, there's no evidence of it. The Mig 1.42 and 1.44 were both heavy machines. Ditto for the SU-47 and the ever expanding Flanker family. 8 years after its first flight, the SU-57 is still years away from being a combat ready machine, and export potential seems limited given its cost (and other problems).

All of that could have been avoided if they prioritized an F-35 sized aircraft. Which is what Japan should continue to do, opting to replace their F-15's with F-35A's and open up a separate buy for F-35B's to fly from their carrier/forward deployed air bases. Look at what Israel is doing. There's no talk there of an F-22/35 hybrid, and you know for damn sure they'd love an F-22 like aircraft. But they understand that's going to take time, be ridiculously expensive and cut into their F-35 numbers.

If they thought it was prudent, they'd find the $. They always do. But simply buying more F-35's and tailoring them to their needs is the path they've chosen, and Japan would do wise to do the same..

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 29 Apr 2018, 16:19
by mk82
mixelflick wrote:At first, I thought this F-22/F-35 hybrid would be an excellent idea for both nations. But reading further here, I'm not so sure.

By the time it's delivered the USAF will be on the cusp of the much more advanced PCA, and Japan? They'll have likely truncated their F-35 buy to fund it. IF the F-35 is as effective air to air as exercises suggest (20:1 kill ratio), I'd much rather have (US) 1,500 F-35's and 150 or so F-22's vs. 150 F-22's, 500 F-35's and 400 of these F-22/35 hybrids.

Everyone is feeling air superiority jitters. That's not unwarranted, given the small number of F-22's to go around. But we have to live with it, thanks to Gates' and others stupid decision. Lockheed is going to have to really rev up the F-35's air to air prowess to asuage these fears, or otherwise convince partner nations it's already there.

If China is the real worry, then it becomes much more a numbers game. They'll build hundreds of J-20's, and likely even larger numbers of J-31's. Their J-10B/C and Flanker derivatives (including the SU-35) are likewise a significant threat. Only the F-35 can counter these kinds of numbers, particularly when it gets down to the target $80 million pricepoint. Countries diverting funds earmarked for F-35's that re-direct those dollars to a heavier stealth fighter.... they're falling into the same trap the Russians did with the SU-57. A few hundred (no matter how good) are not going to survive vs. an air force flush with thousands of smaller stealth aircraft + 4++ gen designs fighting alongside them.

If I were the Japanese, I'd take a hard look at what's happened with the SU-57 and take that lesson to heart. I'm not sure who in Russia was responsible for that decision, or if it was more a question of rubles they couldn't pursue a high/low mix. If a low part of the mix was on the table at some point, there's no evidence of it. The Mig 1.42 and 1.44 were both heavy machines. Ditto for the SU-47 and the ever expanding Flanker family. 8 years after its first flight, the SU-57 is still years away from being a combat ready machine, and export potential seems limited given its cost (and other problems).

All of that could have been avoided if they prioritized an F-35 sized aircraft. Which is what Japan should continue to do, opting to replace their F-15's with F-35A's and open up a separate buy for F-35B's to fly from their carrier/forward deployed air bases. Look at what Israel is doing. There's no talk there of an F-22/35 hybrid, and you know for damn sure they'd love an F-22 like aircraft. But they understand that's going to take time, be ridiculously expensive and cut into their F-35 numbers.

If they thought it was prudent, they'd find the $. They always do. But simply buying more F-35's and tailoring them to their needs is the path they've chosen, and Japan would do wise to do the same..


Spot on!

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 29 Apr 2018, 16:24
by mk82
vanshilar wrote:
talkitron wrote:https://thediplomat.com/2018/04/why-the-f-35-isnt-good-enough-for-japan/


Eh, it's nonsense.

1. There has been multiple sources stating that the F-35 is stealthier than the F-22. Some people try to qualify it by saying "maybe they mean only frontal aspect or something" but I have not seen an official source give those qualifications. Rather, older sources (i.e. before 2008) tend to say the F-22 is stealthier, while newer sources (i.e. after 2013 or so) tend to say the F-35 is stealthier.

2. The F-35 has more range than the F-22. No idea how they get that the F-35 has half the range of the F-22. Maybe they mixed up range and radius. From publicly available sources, the F-22 has a combat radius of 490 nm with 100 nm of supercruise, or 590 nm without using supercruise, while the F-35 has a combat radius of 669 nm as of the most recent SAR. (In this case, the F-22 is carrying 4 AMRAAMs and 2 1000-lb bombs, while the F-35 is carrying 2 AMRAAMs and 2 2000-lb bombs.) The F-35 has a higher fuel fraction, so unless a mission specifically requires going supersonic for significant distances, the F-35 will be able to go farther.

3. Sure, the F-35 currently can only carry 4 AMRAAMs internally. But it'll carry 6 AMRAAMs internally sometime in Block 4. Meanwhile the F-22 carries 6 AMRAAMs and 2 Sidewinders, so by early/mid 2020s, the only difference will be those 2 Sidewinders. However, if they get SACM stuff worked out, IIRC both will have pretty much the same internal loadout, since the F-35 has bigger internal bays. Of course if you're comparing with the F-15J, then I don't know if the F-15J can reach Mach 1.6 with 4 AMRAAMs (or 6) -- the F-35's Mach 1.6 is assuming full internal load. Also, when comparing with legacy planes like the F-15J, the proper comparison is of the F-35 using its external pylons as well, in which case the loadout goes up to a theoretical 14 AMRAAMs and 2 Sidewinders -- exact same as an F-22. Realistically they'll never do that though. The article then mentions "elite twin engine Chinese fighters" but those are having engine issues, so I don't know how fast they can actually go (as opposed to claim be able to go).


I hope someone emails thediplomat’s editor and point that their article is just full of lies. That confirms it for me that thediplomat.com is a pile of tripe pretending to be a reputable news site. Its unbelievable that its 2018 and such bullsh*t from thediplomat.com still flies.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 29 Apr 2018, 17:21
by Fox1
My only concern when it comes to waiting on the PCA is the old "don't put all of your eggs into one basket" analogy. The PCA may be better in theory, but there's no guarantee it ever reaches production. How many major defense programs have we seen fail spectacularly over the past 30 years? The PCA will be a revolutionary design with many new and cutting edge technologies. The chances it suffers lenghty delays, goes well over-budget or even gets cancelled outright are high.

Personally, until PCA goes from being a concept to an actual design that is ready for production, I think it would be wise to continue working on, improving and building existing designs like the F-22 and F-35. I have far greater confidence in our ability to produce improved versions of those designs (or a hybrid of the two designs) than I do in getting PCA off the ground.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 29 Apr 2018, 20:07
by wrightwing
talkitron wrote:Can anyone critique the following claims in the article linked to below? The article sounds like nonsense to me.

1.
While the F-35 retains some radar evading capabilities, its radar cross section is over ten times greater than that of the F-22 making it far less survivable — leading some analysts to term it a “pseudo stealthy” fighter.


2.
The F-35 has less than half the range of the larger F-22 and lacks the Raptor’s advanced long ranged air-to-air missiles
The range thing seems fishy. Don't they use the same AMRAAMs?

3.
As a single engine light platform with a small arsenal of just four air-to-air missiles, restricted to a below average speed of Mach 1.6 and a very low altitude relative to the Raptor, the F-15J, and elite twin engine Chinese fighters, the F-35 hardly presents an adequate solution to counter China’s growing fleet of J-11 fighters — let alone more advanced platforms more recently deployed by Beijing such as the Su-35 or J-20.


https://thediplomat.com/2018/04/why-the ... for-japan/



It a word, these claims are bulls#it.
The F-35 is stealthier than the F-22, has a longer range, carries the same AAMs, and M1.6+ is plenty fast enough. Nobody is going to be flying at M2. Even supercruisers will be subsonic 90% of the time. As for altitudes, the F-35 can fly at >50,000 feet(I've seen numbers as high as 59,000.) Compared with Chinese and Russian aircraft, that's hardly a disadvantaged capability.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 29 Apr 2018, 20:19
by wrightwing
mixelflick wrote:At first, I thought this F-22/F-35 hybrid would be an excellent idea for both nations. But reading further here, I'm not so sure.

By the time it's delivered the USAF will be on the cusp of the much more advanced PCA, and Japan? They'll have likely truncated their F-35 buy to fund it. IF the F-35 is as effective air to air as exercises suggest (20:1 kill ratio), I'd much rather have (US) 1,500 F-35's and 150 or so F-22's vs. 150 F-22's, 500 F-35's and 400 of these F-22/35 hybrids.

Everyone is feeling air superiority jitters. That's not unwarranted, given the small number of F-22's to go around. But we have to live with it, thanks to Gates' and others stupid decision. Lockheed is going to have to really rev up the F-35's air to air prowess to asuage these fears, or otherwise convince partner nations it's already there.

If China is the real worry, then it becomes much more a numbers game. They'll build hundreds of J-20's, and likely even larger numbers of J-31's. Their J-10B/C and Flanker derivatives (including the SU-35) are likewise a significant threat. Only the F-35 can counter these kinds of numbers, particularly when it gets down to the target $80 million pricepoint. Countries diverting funds earmarked for F-35's that re-direct those dollars to a heavier stealth fighter.... they're falling into the same trap the Russians did with the SU-57. A few hundred (no matter how good) are not going to survive vs. an air force flush with thousands of smaller stealth aircraft + 4++ gen designs fighting alongside them.

If I were the Japanese, I'd take a hard look at what's happened with the SU-57 and take that lesson to heart. I'm not sure who in Russia was responsible for that decision, or if it was more a question of rubles they couldn't pursue a high/low mix. If a low part of the mix was on the table at some point, there's no evidence of it. The Mig 1.42 and 1.44 were both heavy machines. Ditto for the SU-47 and the ever expanding Flanker family. 8 years after its first flight, the SU-57 is still years away from being a combat ready machine, and export potential seems limited given its cost (and other problems).

All of that could have been avoided if they prioritized an F-35 sized aircraft. Which is what Japan should continue to do, opting to replace their F-15's with F-35A's and open up a separate buy for F-35B's to fly from their carrier/forward deployed air bases. Look at what Israel is doing. There's no talk there of an F-22/35 hybrid, and you know for damn sure they'd love an F-22 like aircraft. But they understand that's going to take time, be ridiculously expensive and cut into their F-35 numbers.

If they thought it was prudent, they'd find the $. They always do. But simply buying more F-35's and tailoring them to their needs is the path they've chosen, and Japan would do wise to do the same..


In Japan's case, it's not an either or situation. They'd still be buying F-35s to replace their F-2s and F-4s. The hybrids would be to replace their F-15s.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 30 Apr 2018, 01:39
by hephaestusaetnaean
popcorn wrote:So how would the US military, specially the AF, think about another country potentially possessing an aircraft that would outclass anything in the US arsenal? Granted that Japan is a close ally but I don't think that will sit well with them. At the very least the US would need to acquire any new hybrid jet and incorporate some unique US capabilities or proceed with a superior 6Gen design.

Back when Dozer was posting on Fencecheck, he diplomatically sidestepped the F-22 export ban issue but noted that it was comforting that only the USAF would operate Raptors.

Obviously you sell the F-22s to Japan and keep the F-22.35 for yourself, duh!

---

More seriously, USAF reportedly estimated that restarting F-22 production would cost $7 billion to $9.9 billion in non-recurring startup costs and $40.4 billion for 194 airframes including unspecified modernization (presumably up to whatever the F-22s currently use). Further modernization/upgrades integrating F-35 avionics and sensors presumably cost extra. (For reference, the original F-22s cost $26 billion in R&D and $32 billion in procurement, FY14$.)

But for the same $7 billion to $10 billion, you could probably mod the F-35 into an F-35.22: larger bays, more fuel... maaaybe 2 engines. And you'd get to hook into the F-35's massive global logistics system, rather than the F-22's.

A Super Lightning doesn't seem unreasonable if the Super Hornet is any guide: 1992 contract award, 1995 first flight, 1997 FRP, 2000(?) IOC. 8 years isn't bad. If the money is there, [strike]anything is possible[/strike] JASDF might go for it. (Does anyone know how much Super Hornet R&D cost?)

(That doesn't really strike me as an F-22/35 "hybrid" though, and I wonder how literally LM is taking "hybrid." The F-35 is already pretty Raptor-like. Just adding a second engine and enlarging the bays would make it look an awful lot like an F-22, even unintentionally. I wonder if "F-22 hybrid" is more marketing or coincidence than design intent.)

---

From the reuters article, it sounds like the F-22-35 hybrid was LM's idea, rather than Japan's---ie Japan isn't asking for an F-22/35 hybrid per se. I think that's just the proposal LM responded with (unless they spoke with the JASDF beforehand). After all, Japan also sought input from Boeing and BAE, who probably aren't offering an F-22/35 hybrid...

Japan also didn't solicit input from NG, which may suggest they're looking for a current vehicle (or mod thereof) that they can put into service quickly/affordably, rather than a clean-sheet design. No news there.

---

[Late to the party. I skimmed the thread, but sorry if I repeated anything already mentioned.]

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 30 Apr 2018, 01:52
by megui
wrightwing wrote:It a word, these claims are bulls#it.
The F-35 is stealthier than the F-22, has a longer range, carries the same AAMs, and M1.6+ is plenty fast enough. Nobody is going to be flying at M2. Even supercruisers will be subsonic 90% of the time. As for altitudes, the F-35 can fly at >50,000 feet(I've seen numbers as high as 59,000.) Compared with Chinese and Russian aircraft, that's hardly a disadvantaged capability.



IIRC the best amraam available on market is C-7, while D or even C-8 has advantage in range by great margin, not to mention its doubleway datalink. If so the export version has nerfed in weaponry, and M1.6 surely wont help especially when the opponent can go faster yet on the same level of stealthiness.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 30 Apr 2018, 02:08
by geforcerfx
megui wrote:IIRC the best amraam available on market is C-7, while D or even C-8 has advantage in range by great margin, not to mention its doubleway datalink. If so the export version has nerfed in weaponry, and M1.6 surely wont help especially when the opponent can go faster yet on the same level of stealthiness.


Australia bought 450 amraam D's, Japan recently bought 37 C-7 variants.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 30 Apr 2018, 03:37
by megui
geforcerfx wrote:Australia bought 450 amraam D's, Japan recently bought 37 C-7 variants.


Yeah thanks for the update, I haven't checked for a while though. :D

D is indeed a gamechanger, not sure if there's qualification, you know, in terms of partnership level.

sct.png


screencapture-dsca-mil-search-node-amraam-2018-04-30-04_33_18.png


sct2.png

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 30 Apr 2018, 11:55
by ricnunes
megui wrote:IIRC the best amraam available on market is C-7, while D or even C-8 has advantage in range by great margin, not to mention its doubleway datalink.


For what's worth the AIM-120C-8 and AIM-120D missile/variant are the same or putting into a slightly different perspective, the AIM-120D was formerly known as AIM-120C-8.


megui wrote:If so the export version has nerfed in weaponry, and M1.6 surely wont help especially when the opponent can go faster yet on the same level of stealthiness.


I'm not sure what you mean with this but going faster (let's say Mach 2 or higher) usually has a considerable impact on stealth, i.e. the aircraft may/could/should become "less stealth" when flying at higher speeds (namely on the IR spectrum).

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 30 Apr 2018, 14:59
by megui
ricnunes wrote:For what's worth the AIM-120C-8 and AIM-120D missile/variant are the same or putting into a slightly different perspective, the AIM-120D was formerly known as AIM-120C-8.


Development can be expected on current D, let's say D1 or D2, although early stage (C8) has already made difference from C7

ricnunes wrote:I'm not sure what you mean with this but going faster (let's say Mach 2 or higher) usually has a considerable impact on stealth, i.e. the aircraft may/could/should become "less stealth" when flying at higher speeds (namely on the IR spectrum).


IMO higher speed is still a must for F-35 to withstand opponents' stealthy jet, especially on defensive, talking about Japan in this case. The faster you travel, the farther the missile go.
And actually thermal issue is not so significant below M2.5~3.0, by which time the key factor is still the exhaust. Still, M1.6 is relatively slow.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 30 Apr 2018, 15:14
by mixelflick
megui wrote:
ricnunes wrote:For what's worth the AIM-120C-8 and AIM-120D missile/variant are the same or putting into a slightly different perspective, the AIM-120D was formerly known as AIM-120C-8.


Development can be expected on current D, let's say D1 or D2, although early stage (C8) has already made difference from C7

ricnunes wrote:I'm not sure what you mean with this but going faster (let's say Mach 2 or higher) usually has a considerable impact on stealth, i.e. the aircraft may/could/should become "less stealth" when flying at higher speeds (namely on the IR spectrum).


IMO higher speed is still a must for F-35 to withstand opponents' stealthy jet, especially on defensive, talking about Japan in this case. The faster you travel, the farther the missile go.
And actually thermal issue is not so significant below M2.5~3.0, by which time the key factor is still the exhaust. Still, M1.6 is relatively slow.


Which opponent stealthy jet are you thinking about here? The J-20/J-31??

If so, the engines on those birds are unlikely to offer a true super-cruise capability. The F-35 can cruise super-sonically (today) with "very minimal afterburner". Past 2020, it's much more likely sustained supersonic speed can be maintained with no afterburner at all. The same cannot be said for Chinese engines.

Look at it this way: China bought the SU-35 primarily to copy its engine, which is itself insufficient as evidenced by the fact Russia is just now testing the "product 30" engine, offering true supercruise capability. The SU-57 is decidedly less draggy than the J-20 and/or J-31, so the likelihood any Chinese engine powering their aiframes past mach 1.2 is decidedly nill.

We know from pilot reports that the F-35 is "really, really fast". Even if it's red lined at mach 1.6, that's Raptor like energy imparted to an AMRAAM. If you're thinking about running away, think again. F-35's have to be found first, and it's a safe bet the F-35's stealth far surpasses the J-20, J-31 and certainly SU-57.

I'm not at all sold on the J-20 as a super-cruising, VLO platform with integrated avionics. It first flew on Jan 11th, 2011. Reportedly in squadron service just 6 years later. Think about that for a minute. Clean sheet design, supposedly all new systems, much larger envelope to clear weapons release etc.... in record time? I'm not buying it.

IMO, it's far more likely that the J-20 is a limited stealth design, something on the order of a clean Super Hornet. I also don't think it super-cruises, not even close. Integrated avionics? Those may be even more difficult to develop/perfect than 5th generation engines. Doubtful IMO that it has those as well.

Some day maybe, call it a decade from now if US development is any indication. Yes, they stole a bunch of stuff. But that only gets you so far. It's like cheating on a math exam. You might get the right answer but without knowing how you got it....

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 30 Apr 2018, 19:01
by talkitron
Japan's defense budget is only 1% of GDP, which makes Germany seem like a big spender. Now Japan has a larger GDP than Germany, but this idea of coming up with a hybrid aircraft mainly for Japan seems like a bad idea for Japan's limited budget. In terms of deterring North Korea, China and Pacific Russia, I would like for Japan to invest in more units of capability rather than paying R&D for slightly better capability.

It is too bad this Japan proposal is poorly timed for the UK's need to replace the Typhoon, which is still being exported with a limited number of UK domestic airframes left to produce. Japan and the UK could be good collaborators.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 30 Apr 2018, 20:20
by wrightwing
megui wrote:
wrightwing wrote:It a word, these claims are bulls#it.
The F-35 is stealthier than the F-22, has a longer range, carries the same AAMs, and M1.6+ is plenty fast enough. Nobody is going to be flying at M2. Even supercruisers will be subsonic 90% of the time. As for altitudes, the F-35 can fly at >50,000 feet(I've seen numbers as high as 59,000.) Compared with Chinese and Russian aircraft, that's hardly a disadvantaged capability.



IIRC the best amraam available on market is C-7, while D or even C-8 has advantage in range by great margin, not to mention its doubleway datalink. If so the export version has nerfed in weaponry, and M1.6 surely wont help especially when the opponent can go faster yet on the same level of stealthiness.

AIM-120Ds are available to our F-35 partners. Which opponent is going faster, with the same level of stealthiness? Which opponent is going faster, regardless of stealthiness?

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 30 Apr 2018, 22:35
by ricnunes
megui wrote:Development can be expected on current D, let's say D1 or D2, although early stage (C8) has already made difference from C7


Sure. However the C-8 is the current D.
Or putting in one more perspective, the C-8 was "re-branded" as D.


megui wrote:IMO higher speed is still a must for F-35 to withstand opponents' stealthy jet, especially on defensive, talking about Japan in this case. The faster you travel, the farther the missile go.
And actually thermal issue is not so significant below M2.5~3.0, by which time the key factor is still the exhaust. Still, M1.6 is relatively slow.


Like others have said, what other fighter aircraft can effective launch medium-range air-to-air missiles while carrying a useful "war load" at speeds above Mach 1.6, except the F-22?

Also like it was said by mixelflick, that Mach 1.6 speed is the current test limit and it is known that the F-35 has sufficient power to go beyond Mach 1.6
Actually it is claimed that some LM sources that the F-35 maximum speed in mph is 1200 (mph), that's slightly higher than the F/A-18 speed also in mph (said to be 1190 mph) which means that the F-35 could have the potential to get at least to Mach 1.8 (one point eight).
Moreover, the F-35 was tested at Mach 1.6 with a full internal weapon loadout of 2x2000lb bombs and 2xAMRAAMs. So with a air-to-air loadout only of 4xAMRAAMs (or 6xAMRAAMs with Block 4 in the near future) the F-35 could break Mach 1.6 more easily if anyone is willing to test it past this speed - and apparently no one seems to find the need for this so and again apparently it seems that the services that use and will use the F-35 disagree with you that Mach 1.6 is a "relatively slow" speed.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 30 Apr 2018, 22:59
by citanon
I think we should keep in mind that the Japanese fighter program is as much to support the indigenous industrial base as it is to get an effective fighter.

It seems to be patterned after the F2 program. From our perspective the F2 might be a failure in delivering cost effective aircraft, but maybe from their perspective it was a success for keeping the I base current.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 01 May 2018, 01:10
by Corsair1963
Honestly, I've seen nothing that makes me believe Japan is really serious about any F-22/F-35 Hybrid..... :?


Odds are she will continue to acquire F-35A's and possibly some F-35B's short-term. While, down the road she will likely join with a partner or partners. To jointly develop a 6th Generation Fighter for post 2040.


Personally, I've seen nothing that would make me believe that Japan has any other plans. :doh:

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 01 May 2018, 03:28
by avisynth
ricnunes wrote:Like others have said, what other fighter aircraft can effective launch medium-range air-to-air missiles while carrying a useful "war load" at speeds above Mach 1.6, except the F-22?

Also like it was said by mixelflick, that Mach 1.6 speed is the current test limit and it is known that the F-35 has sufficient power to go beyond Mach 1.6
Actually it is claimed that some LM sources that the F-35 maximum speed in mph is 1200 (mph), that's slightly higher than the F/A-18 speed also in mph (said to be 1190 mph) which means that the F-35 could have the potential to get at least to Mach 1.8 (one point eight).
Moreover, the F-35 was tested at Mach 1.6 with a full internal weapon loadout of 2x2000lb bombs and 2xAMRAAMs. So with a air-to-air loadout only of 4xAMRAAMs (or 6xAMRAAMs with Block 4 in the near future) the F-35 could break Mach 1.6 more easily if anyone is willing to test it past this speed - and apparently no one seems to find the need for this so and again apparently it seems that the services that use and will use the F-35 disagree with you that Mach 1.6 is a "relatively slow" speed.

i get your point.
However let's not forget F-35 has a relatively low sweep angle just like viper and hornet, which also doesn't perform so well as Eagle or Tomcat does at high speed, M1.6+ for example. The lower the sweep angle is, the lower lift/drag coefficient you got, lower L/D gives lower max g-load if thrust stays the same. BTW since payload is internal for F-35, it doesn't really matter if you're carrying 2000 pound GBU or 20-pounder Hello Kitty stuffed toy or some sort; the majority difference in drag is from the control surface, much lower than that brought by external racks and missiles.
We can deduce the max G for instant turn. L for lift, D for Drag; and at top speed, D=T_max when cruise with AB.
L=(Cl/Cd)*D=(Cl/Cd)*T=(Cl/Cd)*twr*G\\ twr for thrust/weight, G for weight
so g_inst=L/G=(Cl/Cd)*twr
p327.jpg

Either higher sweep angle or higher T/W ratio can get higher instant G. Lower angle gives less L/D and higher drag coefficient which isnt good for sustained TRT in supersonic maneuverability, for example, when dodging missiles in BVR fight.
p253.jpg

By theory F-35A with 6 amraam and 80 % can reach T/W of 1.08 at S/L, usually lower than that at high altitude&speed. F135 shares the same core part with F119, it's higher BPR that gives incredible performance at low speed, and we all know higher BPR do more harm than good at high speed.Also we dont know the F-35's DSI's TPR on high Mach. Based on few knowledge of its overall performance, it's hard to quantify something but theory still stands.

All these are based on taking defensive move with limited number of F-35, Japan in this case. Both red sides have IRST on their Gen4 jet to find Afterburn-ing F-35, while 120C7 gives no advantage of wider window compared to latest PLs and R-77s. Overall, JASDF's F-35 won't find wider DLZ in BVR fight than supposedly incoming mach2+ jets, and stays in the chance of being picked up by old school IRST on outnumbered Sukhois, do they really have any chance?
Only in case of invasive, missions like HVT hunting, SEAD and antiship can be different putting stealth factor into consideration. In missions more strategic, M1.6 is quite enough.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 01 May 2018, 07:41
by wrightwing
avisynth wrote:
ricnunes wrote:Like others have said, what other fighter aircraft can effective launch medium-range air-to-air missiles while carrying a useful "war load" at speeds above Mach 1.6, except the F-22?

Also like it was said by mixelflick, that Mach 1.6 speed is the current test limit and it is known that the F-35 has sufficient power to go beyond Mach 1.6
Actually it is claimed that some LM sources that the F-35 maximum speed in mph is 1200 (mph), that's slightly higher than the F/A-18 speed also in mph (said to be 1190 mph) which means that the F-35 could have the potential to get at least to Mach 1.8 (one point eight).
Moreover, the F-35 was tested at Mach 1.6 with a full internal weapon loadout of 2x2000lb bombs and 2xAMRAAMs. So with a air-to-air loadout only of 4xAMRAAMs (or 6xAMRAAMs with Block 4 in the near future) the F-35 could break Mach 1.6 more easily if anyone is willing to test it past this speed - and apparently no one seems to find the need for this so and again apparently it seems that the services that use and will use the F-35 disagree with you that Mach 1.6 is a "relatively slow" speed.

i get your point.
However let's not forget F-35 has a relatively low sweep angle just like viper and hornet, which also doesn't perform so well as Eagle or Tomcat does at high speed, M1.6+ for example. The lower the sweep angle is, the lower lift/drag coefficient you got, lower L/D gives lower max g-load if thrust stays the same. BTW since payload is internal for F-35, it doesn't really matter if you're carrying 2000 pound GBU or 20-pounder Hello Kitty stuffed toy or some sort; the majority difference in drag is from the control surface, much lower than that brought by external racks and missiles.
We can deduce the max G for instant turn. L for lift, D for Drag; and at top speed, D=T_max when cruise with AB.
L=(Cl/Cd)*D=(Cl/Cd)*T=(Cl/Cd)*twr*G\\ twr for thrust/weight, G for weight
so g_inst=L/G=(Cl/Cd)*twr
p327.jpg

Either higher sweep angle or higher T/W ratio can get higher instant G. Lower angle gives less L/D and higher drag coefficient which isnt good for sustained TRT in supersonic maneuverability, for example, when dodging missiles in BVR fight.
p253.jpg

By theory F-35A with 6 amraam and 80 % can reach T/W of 1.08 at S/L, usually lower than that at high altitude&speed. F135 shares the same core part with F119, it's higher BPR that gives incredible performance at low speed, and we all know higher BPR do more harm than good at high speed.Also we dont know the F-35's DSI's TPR on high Mach. Based on few knowledge of its overall performance, it's hard to quantify something but theory still stands.

All these are based on taking defensive move with limited number of F-35, Japan in this case. Both red sides have IRST on their Gen4 jet to find Afterburn-ing F-35, while 120C7 gives no advantage of wider window compared to latest PLs and R-77s. Overall, JASDF's F-35 won't find wider DLZ in BVR fight than supposedly incoming mach2+ jets, and stays in the chance of being picked up by old school IRST on outnumbered Sukhois, do they really have any chance?
Only in case of invasive, missions like HVT hunting, SEAD and antiship can be different putting stealth factor into consideration. In missions more strategic, M1.6 is quite enough.


You're still missing the point. Nobody is going to be flying at M2+. The fastest an F-15 has flown in combat is M1.4, and it's faster than Flankers, J-20/31, etc.... Even F-22s remain subsonic the vast majority of the time. Nobody is going to be flying supersonic, without tankers nearby.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 01 May 2018, 14:24
by zero-one
disconnectedradical wrote:F-22 is not cutting edge anymore it’s 90s tech so making PCA just a souped up F-22 sounds foolish. Lockheed and Northrup can do much better today. Even F-23 was probably better. You can’t enhance a F-22 variant into a 6th gen just like how you can’t enhance a F-15 into 5th gen


I think what you're trying to say is, if they were to devote the same type of money, effort and time that they did in the ATF or JSF program to the PCA program then they can come up with something so superior to what the F-22 and F-35 is right now.

But plan is they won't.
Lt.Gen Mike Holmes wrote:What we want to try to do is solve the problem faster than that by looking out across the range of options and building what we’re capable of building instead of waiting for the next generation.”

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ir-423994/

So they want to build what they can already build now. And the F-22 is still by far the best A-A platform. It's still cutting edge by a considerable margin compared to anything else in A-A.

Honestly the only real advantage the F-35 has over the Raptor is sensors. Particularly IR\Optical sensors cause the F-22 still has a bit of an upper hand in Radar size and power. A little bit of sensor fusion maybe and the ability to carry 2k munitions for A-G

These sensors can be integrated into the Raptor as well given the right time and money. So imagine F-22 Kinematics with F-35's IR sensors. thats easily a 5+ gen platform.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 01 May 2018, 14:28
by zero-one
wrightwing wrote:You're still missing the point. Nobody is going to be flying at M2+. The fastest an F-15 has flown in combat is M1.4, and it's faster than Flankers, J-20/31, etc.... Even F-22s remain subsonic the vast majority of the time. Nobody is going to be flying supersonic, without tankers nearby.


Whats important is you can when you need to. an F-22 has never fired an air-air missile in anger, So can we just remove air to air missiles completely because Raptors use it 0% of the time.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 01 May 2018, 15:58
by SpudmanWP
Then why not make it Mach 3, 4, or 5?

The reason is simple, there is no reason to as there is zero evidence that the feature would be affordable or relevant to combat.

The same applies to the top "tested speed" of the F-35. Since no US plane in history has every gone above Mach 1.4 in combat, there is little evidence that spending a ton of money giving it a capability that history says it will never use makes any sense.

Your F-22 & missile analogy makes no sense since the F-22 will "eventually" use one as history shows their widespread use. Up until last 2014 it had not dropped a bomb either, but it "eventually" did.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 01 May 2018, 17:32
by wrightwing
zero-one wrote:

Whats important is you can when you need to. an F-22 has never fired an air-air missile in anger, So can we just remove air to air missiles completely because Raptors use it 0% of the time.

You can what, when you need to? Fly supersonic? The F-35 can when it needs to, and due to superior situational awareness, can begin accelerating sooner. I have no idea what you're talking about, in terms of removing missiles. What does that have to do with the speeds, that aircraft will be flying at in combat? It's 3,045km from China to Japan, so nobody is supercruising that far, which makes theoretical top speeds even less relevant, for any would be attackers.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 01 May 2018, 18:11
by garrya
avisynth wrote:The lower the sweep angle is, the lower lift/drag coefficient you got, lower L/D gives lower max g-load if thrust stays the same.
We can deduce the max G for instant turn. L for lift, D for Drag; and at top speed, D=T_max when cruise with AB.
L=(Cl/Cd)*D=(Cl/Cd)*T=(Cl/Cd)*twr*G\\ twr for thrust/weight, G for weight
so g_inst=L/G=(Cl/Cd)*twr
Either higher sweep angle or higher T/W ratio can get higher instant G.

T/W ratio doesn't affect max instantaneous G period.
Max instantaneous G = Max lift/max weight
Lift = 0.5*air density*velocity^2*reference wing area*Cl.
Weight =mass in kg*9.81
Also higher sweep angle doesn't get you higher instantaneous G because lower sweep has steeper CL/alpha curve
Image


avisynth wrote:All these are based on taking defensive move with limited number of F-35, Japan in this case. Both red sides have IRST on their Gen4 jet to find Afterburn-ing F-35, while 120C7 gives no advantage of wider window compared to latest PLs and R-77s. Overall, JASDF's F-35 won't find wider DLZ in BVR fight than supposedly incoming mach2+ jets, and stays in the chance of being picked up by old school IRST on outnumbered Sukhois, do they really have any chance?

Japan and MBDA are cooperate for a version of Meteor with AESA seeker
http://m.aviationweek.com/awin-only/jap ... r-guidance
and even the most modern Flanker has quite limited engagement range with IRST, only 20km with LRF. Head on detection range is around 35 km
Image

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 01 May 2018, 19:55
by ricnunes
avisynth wrote:i get your point.
However let's not forget F-35 has a relatively low sweep angle just like viper and hornet, which also doesn't perform so well as Eagle or Tomcat does at high speed, M1.6+ for example. The lower the sweep angle is, the lower lift/drag coefficient you got, lower L/D gives lower max g-load if thrust stays the same.


Well, I never said or hinted that the F-35 could ever reach top speeds above Mach 2 (Mach 2+).
What I said is that I see no reason why the F-35 could not reach the same top speed as the F/A-18 Hornet (Mach 1.8) for example or even slightly higher as for example the Viper which can reach Mach 2.
So if there was the desire to do it so and to test it, I could "easily" see the F-35 reaching a top speed somewhere between Mach 1.8 and Mach 2.0
However despite the ability being there, there doesn't seem to be the interest to test the F-35 up to the same/similar top speeds as clean F/A-18s and F-16s and the reason for this were IMO well explained by others here, so there's no need to repeat them.


avisynth wrote:BTW since payload is internal for F-35, it doesn't really matter if you're carrying 2000 pound GBU or 20-pounder Hello Kitty stuffed toy or some sort; the majority difference in drag is from the control surface, much lower than that brought by external racks and missiles.


Actually weight does indeed affect/produces Drag. Weight produces Induced drag. Of course that Induced Drag is reduced with higher speeds but it's still present nonetheless (even at higher speeds).


Image

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 05 May 2018, 07:27
by disconnectedradical
zero-one wrote:
disconnectedradical wrote:F-22 is not cutting edge anymore it’s 90s tech so making PCA just a souped up F-22 sounds foolish. Lockheed and Northrup can do much better today. Even F-23 was probably better. You can’t enhance a F-22 variant into a 6th gen just like how you can’t enhance a F-15 into 5th gen


I think what you're trying to say is, if they were to devote the same type of money, effort and time that they did in the ATF or JSF program to the PCA program then they can come up with something so superior to what the F-22 and F-35 is right now.

But plan is they won't.
Lt.Gen Mike Holmes wrote:What we want to try to do is solve the problem faster than that by looking out across the range of options and building what we’re capable of building instead of waiting for the next generation.”

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ir-423994/

So they want to build what they can already build now. And the F-22 is still by far the best A-A platform. It's still cutting edge by a considerable margin compared to anything else in A-A.

Honestly the only real advantage the F-35 has over the Raptor is sensors. Particularly IR\Optical sensors cause the F-22 still has a bit of an upper hand in Radar size and power. A little bit of sensor fusion maybe and the ability to carry 2k munitions for A-G

These sensors can be integrated into the Raptor as well given the right time and money. So imagine F-22 Kinematics with F-35's IR sensors. thats easily a 5+ gen platform.


You logic here fails because making PCA come sooner and less expensive doesn't mean souping up an old design like F-22. B-21 program is coming quicker and less expensive than B-2 yet B-21 is not just a souped up B-2. Things like structures, RAM, aerodynamics, and computing have come much further since F-22 was designed so if PCA is just a souped up F-22 then it will be very disappointing.

No reason for PCA to use F-22 airframe unless you have some weird obsession with F-22 airframe.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 05 May 2018, 08:04
by hephaestusaetnaean

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 05 May 2018, 14:24
by zero-one
SpudmanWP wrote: Since no US plane in history has every gone above Mach 1.4 in combat,


Before the supersonic age, no US plane in history has ever gone to Mach 1 as well, so why are they doing it now. We can't simply rule out a capability just because it was never needed before, else we would still be flying biplanes.
SpudmanWP wrote:there is little evidence that spending a ton of money giving it a capability that history says it will never use makes any sense.

Gen Mike Hostage wrote:“The F-35 doesn’t have the altitude, doesn’t have the speed [of the F-22], but it can beat the F-22 in stealth.” But stealth — the ability to elude or greatly complicate an enemy’s ability to find and destroy an aircraft using a combination of design, tactics and technology — is not a magic pill, Hostage reminds us.


Apparently the F-22's speed is held in very high regard by Airforce brass. When was the last time the US ever went up against a peer airforce, out numbered?

Designing a PCA based on experience against Bosnia? Afganistan? Iraq? Vietnam or Korea? I get it, combat experience is an important factor, but limiting PCA to Mach 1.5 just because we never needed to go beyond Mach 1.6+ in combat against Iraqistan before seems a bit short sighted.

Your F-22 & missile analogy makes no sense since the F-22 will "eventually" use one as history shows their widespread use. Up until last 2014 it had not dropped a bomb either, but it "eventually" did.


It was rhetorical, because the fighters never needed to go beyond Mach 1.5 in combat does not mean they will never need that capability.

disconnectedradical wrote:You logic here fails because making PCA come sooner and less expensive doesn't mean souping up an old design like F-22.

In terms of airframe design, it still has the best Kinematic and VLO properties compared to anything by a very very wide margin. Just because it was made in the 90s, doesn't make it obsolete.

disconnectedradical wrote:B-21 program is coming quicker and less expensive than B-2 yet B-21 is not just a souped up B-2.

That remains to be seen but that is a great point, if pictures are to be believed the B-21 looks an awful lot like the B-2 which is essentially a late 70s design.

I bet its because the B-2 airframe offers the best VLO, range and payload characteristics for a bomber, so yes, PCA could be F-22 like just as B-21 is B-2 like.

disconnectedradical wrote:Things like structures, RAM, aerodynamics, and computing have come much further since F-22 was designed so if PCA is just a souped up F-22 then it will be very disappointing.

We don't know that, so far there is nothing out there that has the F-22's combination of speed, agility and VLO. so where are all these superior airframe designs


disconnectedradical wrote:No reason for PCA to use F-22 airframe unless you have some weird obsession with F-22 airframe.


A lot of people have been suggesting to use the F-35 as the basis for PCA? Why? that airframe was primarily for A-G, it is also a 90s design much like the F-22. But why is it okay to base the PCA on the F-35 but its a disappointment when it is based on the F-22

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 05 May 2018, 16:53
by count_to_10
There is a big difference between “this one fighter hasn’t fired its main weapon in anger (for lack of serious combat encounters)” and “few/no fighters in the history have ever used speed capability beyond X in combat”. While, as I mentioned in a previous comment, it is possible that having a capability can change an enemy’s behavior even if you never use it, you probably don’t need speed beyond 1.8 if you have yet to use 1.5.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 05 May 2018, 18:06
by SpudmanWP
The F-22 is an Air Dominance fighter while the F-35 is not. That and the > 2:1 cost ratio is why the F-35 was not designed with > Mach 1.6 combat in mind. If they wanted to make a tri-service multirole fighter with the F-22's capabilities, then it would be more expensive than the F-22, in other words... completely unaffordable.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 05 May 2018, 22:19
by ricnunes
zero-one wrote:A lot of people have been suggesting to use the F-35 as the basis for PCA? Why? that airframe was primarily for A-G, it is also a 90s design much like the F-22.


I believe that the sentence above has a couple of misconceptions.
First is the "F-35 airframe was primarily for A-G", this is false! The F-35 airframe is basically for the same roles as the F-16, so would you say that the F-16 airframe is primarily for A-G?? Or would you say that the F/A-18 airframe is also primarily for A-G as well? If you think so than you should think twice.
This being said, the F-35 was designed for A-A the same was as A-G, or by other world the F-35 airframe was primarily designed for both A-A and A-G alike.
Also and just because the USAF plans (or planned) to use the F-35 primarily for A-G doesn't mean that it was designed primarily for this role and I think that this is the reason for this misconception. How about the other F-35 users such as Netherlands, Norway, etc... I'm pretty sure that they will use the F-35 primarily for A-A (as opposed to primarily for A-G, like the USAF plans). And how about the other US Services (US Navy and USMC)?

Second misconception is when you say that both F-22 and F-35 are 1990's designs. If we want to be "purists" on this regard then we must say that the F-22 is a 1980's (eighties) design while the F-35 is indeed a 1990's (nineties) design.
Lets see, the first F-22 prototype the YF-22 was built in 1989 and flew for the first time in 1990. The program that culminated in the F-22 was the ATF (Advanced Tactical Fighter), a program that run during the 1980's.


zero-one wrote:But why is it okay to base the PCA on the F-35 but its a disappointment when it is based on the F-22


While technically the F-22 could be "superior" to the F-35 in a "one-on-one basis" you're forgetting the "mantra" by which most of all I believe, agree here - fighter aircraft don't fight alone!
This being said for each F-22s you can have at least two (2) F-35s. Heck, looking at the study costs of restarting the F-22 production lines you could have at least three (3) F-35s per each F-22. And what does this mean?
- It means that in an A-A (Air-to-Air) role you can cover much more airspace and faster with two (2) or three (3) Mach 1.6+ F-35s than what you could ever cover with a single Mach 2+ F-22. Now multiply the number of F-35s and the single F-22 using the same metrics (for example at squadron or squadrons level) and you'll see that the F-35 would be far more effective than even the F-22 on A-A roles. And note that I didn't even start referring to the F-35's superior sensors and sensor fusion.

So on this ground, I would say that basing the PCA on the F-35 instead on the F-22 would result in a more effective aircraft.


zero-one wrote:Before the supersonic age, no US plane in history has ever gone to Mach 1 as well, so why are they doing it now. We can't simply rule out a capability just because it was never needed before, else we would still be flying biplanes.

Designing a PCA based on experience against Bosnia? Afganistan? Iraq? Vietnam or Korea? I get it, combat experience is an important factor, but limiting PCA to Mach 1.5 just because we never needed to go beyond Mach 1.6+ in combat against Iraqistan before seems a bit short sighted.


Well designing A-A aircraft with very speeds in mind is hardly a novelty. In the late 1950's the US designed a Mach 3 (yes Mach Three) interceptor which led to the YF-12. With this experience in mind I would guess that it was found that very high Mach speeds are not that needed for an A-A fighter aircraft to be truly effective.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 06 May 2018, 01:08
by basher54321
In 1994 according to Lockheed Martin (Paul M. Bevilaqua)

The addition of four new ground-attack missions from the MRF [Multi Role Fighter] program changed the design emphasis from a fighter with some strike capability to a strike aircraft with some air-to-air defensive capability. The development of stealth and long-range air-to-air missiles had changed the nature of air combat, and so the emphasis was on achieving a first-look, first-kill capability and reducing the need to dogfight at close range. For these reasons, the two AIM 9 missiles were removed and the aircraft was designed to carry two 2000 lb bombs in the internal weapons bays, in addition to the two AIM 120 missiles.

The MRF was the F-16 requirements including 4 Air to Ground mission sets - the F-16 went into service as a multirole fighter with a 55% A-A and 45% A-G design mission. However the F-16 design to prototype stage (YF-16) was pure A-A AFAIK (90%+ A-A?).

Does anyone know the equivalent design mission for the X-35 and subsequent F-35?

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 06 May 2018, 08:43
by zero-one
I'm not saying that the F-35 is not designed for A-A. It is, in fact I believe it is the second best A-A fighter anywhere.
Lockheed has said that they designed it to have A-A capabilities second only to the F-22. so thats saying a lot.

What I'm saying is, its design, first and foremost was to be a Strike platform. So as basher said above the F-35 may have a greater emphasis on A-G missions than A-A missions.

Why would we want to base the next air superiority platform on a plane that had greater emphasis on mud moving and is inferior to the F-22 in air to air.

Again, I love the F-35, its the 2nd best A-A. But when it comes to this F-22 vs F-35 scenario, I need to draw the line. the F-22 is hands down the better plane in that particular mission. Gen Hostage said it. The F-22 is to the F-35 as the F-15 is to the F-16, the former are the kings of air to air combat.
It doesn't get clearer than that,

the USAF's first choice for CAP isn't the F-16 but the F-15. If they went up against each other the Eagle's bigger radar will detect the Viper first and kill from long range. The only chance for the Viper is if it makes it to a merge. And even then its a toss up, The Eagle still holds some advantages over the F-16 in that scenario.

The only advantage the F-35 has over the F-22 in an air to air missions is in it's sensor suite and maybe higher bandwidth data links. These advantages can be integrated into the F-22 if the USAF really got serious in modernizing the Raptor.

And even in sensors, the advantage is not total, the F-22 still has the bigger more powerful radar which is the primary long range sensor of both planes.

In speed, maneuverability, ceiling, acceleration, weapons payload, the F-22 is the better airframe, plus you can fit a bigger radar, more sensors etc.

bottom line is, if you were to choose between an upgraded F-22 or an upgraded F-35 for PCA, I'd go with the former.
so why would you base it off the F-35.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 06 May 2018, 10:34
by basher54321
zero-one wrote:I'm not saying that the F-35 is not designed for A-A. It is, in fact I believe it is the second best A-A fighter anywhere.
Lockheed has said that they designed it to have A-A capabilities second only to the F-22. so thats saying a lot.


The only chance for the Viper is if it makes it to a merge. And even then its a toss up, The Eagle still holds some advantages over the F-16 in that scenario.



You are both right to some extent I think - It seems pretty clear that F-35 wasn't designed as an A-A superiority fighter and had a higher emphasis on A-G but it is good at A-A regardless.

Note the statement about the Merge thing only applies to 1980s pre radar missile only.

FYI (re Eagle eating Viper at high alt comment) things are very different up high for all aircraft.

I'll have to say I don't agree. Maybe you need to define High altitude, (40+). Even then I've got to say the Viper holds its own in a dogfight up high. Having started maneuvering that high WVR the jets have what appears to be similar rates and turn radii, the Vipers' thrust(air-air configured) and low energy loss rate usually mean that both jets end up descending in a neutral fashion (if the set up was from high aspect) until the lower attitudes. I've never had an Eagle stay high and use the altitude against me or go where I could not, the multiple pilots I've fought in that jet always seemed to have as much difficulty turning an advantage up high as I had. That's my words anyway. Oh and for the Viper lovers on this forum, the Eagle is an outstanding jet with some awesome avionics with respect to the Viper. I'm glad that jet is on our side.

viewtopic.php?f=30&t=12614

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 06 May 2018, 10:43
by gtg947h
zero-one wrote:bottom line is, if you were to choose between an upgraded F-22 or an upgraded F-35 for PCA, I'd go with the former.
so why would you base it off the F-35.


Cost.

The F-35 is already in production and you don't have to pay extra money to integrate all the fancy avionics into a different airframe. It will be a lot easier to make even a significantly-modified version of it than it would be to resurrect the F-22 and try to do the same because the drawings are current and your design team is still around and up to speed on the aircraft.

A PCA based off the F-35 may not be quite as "good", but it will be cheaper and faster to enter service than one based off the F-22.


Personally, as someone involved in maintaining systems on aging (civil) aircraft, I think the USAF's F-22 restart study that just went public is too optimistic about systems costs. They'll have to redo all of the mission systems, and the rest of the aircraft (electrical power, hydraulics, ECS, etc) will have to be recertified at minimum, if not redesigned simply because they don't have the drawings and the suppliers are out of business. Everyone says "but we have the tooling!"... but this isn't 1950 anymore; the tooling is only part of rebuilding the aircraft.

Any "advanced hybrid" like posited in this thread will wind up being the F-22C "Super Raptor", just like the F-18E is to the F-18C...

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 06 May 2018, 11:28
by basher54321
:thumb:

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 06 May 2018, 12:07
by juretrn
IMO, there's a good option of "Super Raptor" happening - that will have as much in common with Raptor as Super Hornet does with Hornet (not that much) - but that is completely dependent on how many J-20s (and possibly J-31s) get built. As proven with MiG-25, it doesn't take much for the USAF to be overtaken by another "gap" bout of paranoia.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 06 May 2018, 19:55
by disconnectedradical
zero-one wrote:
disconnectedradical wrote:You logic here fails because making PCA come sooner and less expensive doesn't mean souping up an old design like F-22.

In terms of airframe design, it still has the best Kinematic and VLO properties compared to anything by a very very wide margin. Just because it was made in the 90s, doesn't make it obsolete.

disconnectedradical wrote:B-21 program is coming quicker and less expensive than B-2 yet B-21 is not just a souped up B-2.

That remains to be seen but that is a great point, if pictures are to be believed the B-21 looks an awful lot like the B-2 which is essentially a late 70s design.

I bet its because the B-2 airframe offers the best VLO, range and payload characteristics for a bomber, so yes, PCA could be F-22 like just as B-21 is B-2 like.

disconnectedradical wrote:Things like structures, RAM, aerodynamics, and computing have come much further since F-22 was designed so if PCA is just a souped up F-22 then it will be very disappointing.

We don't know that, so far there is nothing out there that has the F-22's combination of speed, agility and VLO. so where are all these superior airframe designs


disconnectedradical wrote:No reason for PCA to use F-22 airframe unless you have some weird obsession with F-22 airframe.


A lot of people have been suggesting to use the F-35 as the basis for PCA? Why? that airframe was primarily for A-G, it is also a 90s design much like the F-22. But why is it okay to base the PCA on the F-35 but its a disappointment when it is based on the F-22


No PCA should be based on either F-22 or F-35. It should be NEW airframe. Harping about how great F-22 is now doesn't mean anything and doesn't mean PCA should be based on it (or F-35). F-22 is easily obsolete compare to what US can design in 2020s and 2030s. Just because other countries have not caught up to it right now doesn't mean getting lazy and enhancing F-22 when other countries make bigger leap from 5th to 6th gen.

There's physics reason why B-21 is shaped similar to a B-2. B-21 design is already the least amount of angles possible to give a return, any less and you'll have something that won't be very flyable. But even though the shapes are a bit similar the airframe is VERY different from B-2. B-21 intake is different, sweep angles are probably different, trailing edges are different, materials and control surfaces are different, engine placement is different, RAM and structure materials are more advanced. With all these differences basing the airframe on a old one like F-22 is pointless, why not start from new?

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 07 May 2018, 02:59
by Corsair1963
The US will want to maintain it's technological edge over China in the coming decades. So, don't expect to see the F-X based on the F-22 platform........

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 07 May 2018, 08:53
by zero-one
I'm all for a new airframe and another ATF program development cycle with 2 YF class prototypes competing. But how exactly do you do that with DOD saying they don't want another 10+ year development cycle and using mature technologies?

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 07 May 2018, 10:16
by disconnectedradical
zero-one wrote:I'm all for a new airframe and another ATF program development cycle with 2 YF class prototypes competing. But how exactly do you do that with DOD saying they don't want another 10+ year development cycle and using mature technologies?


New airframe won’t be overly expensive if costs and requirements are reasonable, like not having the leap from F-22 to PCA as big as leap from F-15 to F-22. On the other hand going back to F-22 is ignoring 2 decades of improvement in aerodynamics and structures. Compare to 20 years ago airframe design might be advance enough to make tailless supersonic possible.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 07 May 2018, 10:57
by zero-one
disconnectedradical wrote:New airframe won’t be overly expensive if costs and requirements are reasonable, like not having the leap from F-22 to PCA as big as leap from F-15 to F-22. On the other hand going back to F-22 is ignoring 2 decades of improvement in aerodynamics and structures. Compare to 20 years ago airframe design might be advance enough to make tailless supersonic possible.


Well tailless supersonic airframes aren't necessarily "mature technology" and they may also be expensive to develop.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 07 May 2018, 14:38
by mixelflick
This is going to be interesting...

Air Force allegedly wants "mature" tech to avoid protracted development periods(i.e 20 years). Yet, tech has developed beyond the F-22/F-35 and will be available to incorporate. Indeed it probably must be incorporated to keep our technological edge.

I have a bad feeling the Air Force won't be as disciplined with the "mature" tech as they're professing. Has the Air Force ever built an aircraft that wasn't a significant improvement beyond what it's replacing?

The F-100 was far more capable than the F-86.
The F-106 was far more capable than the F-102
The F-14, 15, 16 and 18 were light years more capable than the F-4.
The F-22 far outclasses the F-15, and every other fighter in the world for that matter (air to air)
The F-35 far outclasses the F-16, A-10, AV-8B and F-18

That track record would suggest it's going to be much more capable than the F-22...

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 07 May 2018, 16:10
by zero-one
Exactly what I was thinking mixelflick
How do you do it.

I think they can do it by using mature technology where they can afford to be and just going all out R&D where they need to be.

Airframe: The reason why I like to have it Raptor based so much is because if its a manned air superiority platform with VLO, Speed and Maneuverability as the KPP for the design, you really can't get much better than the F-22. It's already too fast and too maneuverable for its own human pilots. Making it faster and even more agile won't really do much more.

It's mature and can still hold up to any manned platform because it already reached the upper limits of what the body can withstand.

Engine: ADVENT, its already in development anyway so just go all out. It'll also improve range and maybe some kinematics due to increased thrust.

Avionics: This is where you go all out on R&D and really develop next generation sensors, avionics and data links

Coatings and materials: If possible, use the one used on the LRSB program.


The result will be cheaper and more mature than a program from scratch. This is just my idea, I'm not saying this the only way out of 14,000,605 :poke:

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 07 May 2018, 17:11
by ricnunes
zero-one wrote:In speed, maneuverability, ceiling, acceleration, weapons payload, the F-22 is the better airframe, plus you can fit a bigger radar, more sensors etc.

bottom line is, if you were to choose between an upgraded F-22 or an upgraded F-35 for PCA, I'd go with the former.
so why would you base it off the F-35.



Don't get me wrong but I think you're forgetting the main point here (against the "F-22 restart" or "F-22 hybrid") which is: COST!

Yes, the F-22 may be better than the F-35 in a one-on-one basis but even this maybe a bit disputable since while the F-22 has a "bigger radar", the F-35 has a "newer radar", IR/IRST sensors (EOTS and DAS) and is reportedly stealthier in the frontal arc.
And with lower cost comes another advantage, numbers! While and again one can argue that a single F-22 is better than a F-35, is a single F-22 better than two F-35s?? With all due respect, obviously NOT!
So and like the saying says: "numbers have a strength of it's own".

Your F-15/F-16 comparison made sense in the 1970's/1980's and even for most part of the 1990's. Looking back when the F-15 and F-16 were developed, the F-15 had the capability of engaging targets at BVR (with Sparrows) while the F-16 could only engage WVR (Sidewinders only). There were several reasons for this but I guess that we could sum all these reason into a single one: Technological limitations and cost associated with it.
These same technological limitations are now a thing of the past and the fact is that the F-35 is just as capable if not more than the F-22 in the Air-to-Air arena.

I guess one could also argue the following: Then, lets put a modernized radar, IR/IRST sensors on the F-22 and even reduce its frontal arc RCS even further and then you'll have a clearly and superior aircraft (F-22C or whatever you want to call it) compared to the F-35 and while this would be true, then again: At what COST?
Remember that only 194 F-22s were manufactured from a planned what? 700+? And why was this so? Many may argue it was a "bad political decision" but "political decisions" apart, the reason is again clear: COST or "too expensive".
In the end what does this mean? It means that the F-22 was already "too expensive" when being manufactured. And the F-22 was too expensive in both "gross money" and above all, too expensive if we compare that it cost with what are its actual capabilities (very limited air-to-ground capabilities for example).

Again, a restarted and upgraded F-22 would simply have a prohibitive pricetag/cost.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 07 May 2018, 17:21
by geforcerfx
I'm glad the F-22 was canceled, it was designed for a war and fight that ended right around the flyoff. We need range and payload in the pacific, something the F-22 can't deliver, it was designed to fly around in Europe with land bases everywhere, even highways and civil airports. This is polar opposite to the pacific where bases are limited and the distances are vast and mainly over water. PCA needs lots weapons and lots of gas and they just can't get that out of the current F-22 aircraft, sure the FB-22 existed but it did so over a decade ago. The Ideal PCA would the absolute best airframe we could build and then just carry everything over from the F-35, hell just copy the freaking cockpit and move it over as well. Makes your dev time way faster, we have a 5.5 gen to start, 6th gen frame 5th gen avionics/engines then spend the time to develop and perfect the next gen avionics for the new aircraft over the lifespan and start integrating them in the mid to late 2030's. Fall back for PCA is a modified F-35, take the F-35 fuselage make it a large delta wing and give it TVC on the engine to keep it mobile. Increases fuel with the big wing, add a weapons pay in each wing to increase payload, keep it 40-60% common with the F-35A if possible, not ideal but affordable and doable right now if needed.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 07 May 2018, 17:37
by zero-one
ricnunes wrote:
Don't get me wrong but I think you're forgetting the main point here (against the "F-22 restart" or "F-22 hybrid") which is: COST!


Well if cost is the problem, why is everyone suggesting a clean sheet design for PCA. isnt that even more expensive?

Heres my disagreement. I don't think that the F-22's superiority over the F-35 is debatable. Gen Mike Hostage for one has said it.

The F-35 is to the F-22 as the F-16 is to the F-15. The latter aircraft are the kings of air to air combat.

https://breakingdefense.com/2014/06/gen ... -starts/3/

This guy has all the top secret clearance and info that we don't know and openly acknowledges that the F-22 is better.

I love the F-35, its a monster A-A platform, It'll kill a Typhoon guns only. But against the Raptor, its not debatable.
Not just one on one. The F-22 also has impressive data links, more weapons and better kinematics that are all useful in a multi ship scenario.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 07 May 2018, 17:39
by ricnunes
basher54321 wrote:In 1994 according to Lockheed Martin (Paul M. Bevilaqua)

The addition of four new ground-attack missions from the MRF [Multi Role Fighter] program changed the design emphasis from a fighter with some strike capability to a strike aircraft with some air-to-air defensive capability. The development of stealth and long-range air-to-air missiles had changed the nature of air combat, and so the emphasis was on achieving a first-look, first-kill capability and reducing the need to dogfight at close range. For these reasons, the two AIM 9 missiles were removed and the aircraft was designed to carry two 2000 lb bombs in the internal weapons bays, in addition to the two AIM 120 missiles.

The MRF was the F-16 requirements including 4 Air to Ground mission sets - the F-16 went into service as a multirole fighter with a 55% A-A and 45% A-G design mission. However the F-16 design to prototype stage (YF-16) was pure A-A AFAIK (90%+ A-A?).

Does anyone know the equivalent design mission for the X-35 and subsequent F-35?


Well, like you said that was a requirement set back in 1994. In the meanwhile the X-35 flew for the first time in 2000 and the actual F-35 program started afterwards and things certainly have changed a lot since 1994, like for example:
- The JSF/F-35 became an international program which not only involved the USA but also the UK, Italy, Netherlands, Canada, Turkey, Australia, Norway, and Denmark. I'm sure that an aircraft designed to serve the countries mentioned above must have and certainly has a very strong Air-to-Air emphasis.
- Somehow related to the point above, the F-35 was meant to replace the F-16 so I'm pretty sure that the F-35 wouldn't be "less designed" as an air-to-air airframe compared to the F-16, specially considering that the F-35 will replace the F-16 in countries which apparently use the F-16 (and the F-35) more for air-to-air missions compared to air-to-ground missions.
- The F-35 was designed to combine both the F-16 agility (energy) with the F/A-18 agility (High AoA)! This seems to me to be a pure air-to-air requirement which IMO contradicts a little bit what Mr. Bevilaqua has said back in 1994:
"strike aircraft with some air-to-air defensive capability".

I believe that people forget that "strike aircraft" is not a ground aircraft with self-defense capabilities but it's instead an aircraft which is equally capable in air-to-air and air-to-ground missions. An excellent example of this and perhaps the first true example of its kind was/is the F/A-18. All future fighter aircraft will (IMO) be of a "strike fighter" kind.

Moreover, I think that the quote above from Mr. Bevilaqua is (mainly) what is perpetuating the myth that the F-35 was designed "primarily for air-to-ground and secondarily for air-to-air".

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 07 May 2018, 17:51
by ricnunes
zero-one wrote:Well if cost is the problem, why is everyone suggesting a clean sheet design for PCA. isnt that even more expensive?


Because the PCA would be or at least is expected to be much less expensive - specially in the long production run and maintenace - compared with the F-22.
Look again at a comparison which someone previously mentioned: The B-2 and the B-21.
I believe that the F-22 will be for the B-2 what the PCA will be for the B-21.


zero-one wrote:Heres my disagreement. I don't think that the F-22's superiority over the F-35 is debatable. Gen Mike Hostage for one has said it.

The F-35 is to the F-22 as the F-16 is to the F-15. The latter aircraft are the kings of air to air combat.

https://breakingdefense.com/2014/06/gen ... -starts/3/

This guy has all the top secret clearance and info that we don't know and openly acknowledges that the F-22 is better.

I love the F-35, its a monster A-A platform, It'll kill a Typhoon guns only. But against the Raptor, its not debatable.
Not just one on one. The F-22 also has impressive data links, more weapons and better kinematics that are all useful in a multi ship scenario.


You will never see, read or hear from any officials claiming that the F-35 could "win" against a F-22 or else how would the USAF and/or other US military top brass or even the US government justify the decision to keep the F-22 in service with the F-35 entering in service?

While and again I won't dispute (at least directly) that the F-22 could be "superior" to a single F-35 in air-to-air combat, there's NO WAY that a single F-22 is superior to two F-35s again in air-to-air combat, even against each other.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 07 May 2018, 19:13
by basher54321
ricnunes wrote:
Well, like you said that was a requirement set back in 1994. In the meanwhile the X-35 flew for the first time in 2000 and the actual F-35 program started afterwards and things certainly have changed a lot since 1994, like for example:
- The JSF/F-35 became an international program which not only involved the USA but also the UK, Italy, Netherlands, Canada, Turkey, Australia, Norway, and Denmark. I'm sure that an aircraft designed to serve the countries mentioned above must have and certainly has a very strong Air-to-Air emphasis.
- Somehow related to the point above, the F-35 was meant to replace the F-16 so I'm pretty sure that the F-35 wouldn't be "less designed" as an air-to-air airframe compared to the F-16, specially considering that the F-35 will replace the F-16 in countries which apparently use the F-16 (and the F-35) more for air-to-air missions compared to air-to-ground missions.
- The F-35 was designed to combine both the F-16 agility (energy) with the F/A-18 agility (High AoA)! This seems to me to be a pure air-to-air requirement which IMO contradicts a little bit what Mr. Bevilaqua has said back in 1994:
"strike aircraft with some air-to-air defensive capability".

I believe that people forget that "strike aircraft" is not a ground aircraft with self-defense capabilities but it's instead an aircraft which is equally capable in air-to-air and air-to-ground missions. An excellent example of this and perhaps the first true example of its kind was/is the F/A-18. All future fighter aircraft will (IMO) be of a "strike fighter" kind.

Moreover, I think that the quote above from Mr. Bevilaqua is (mainly) what is perpetuating the myth that the F-35 was designed "primarily for air-to-ground and secondarily for air-to-air".





It was taken from "Genesis of the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter" (2009) and nothing to say that was ever changed throughout design however if you have something more concrete then please provide it. It looks like F-35 is designed to replace how the F-16 was used (55% A-A 45% A-G) not how the F-16 was originally designed which is pretty logical.

The requirement for F-16 and FA-18 manoeuvrability - if anything confirms less emphasis on out and out A-A design - it is like designing the F-16 in the 70s with a requirement for F-4 / F-104 like manoeuvrability is it not. I would expect "comparable to F-22" requirement for pure A-A :wink:

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 07 May 2018, 21:37
by ricnunes
basher54321 wrote:The requirement for F-16 and FA-18 manoeuvrability - if anything confirms less emphasis on out and out A-A design - it is like designing the F-16 in the 70s with a requirement for F-4 / F-104 like manoeuvrability is it not. I would expect "comparable to F-22" requirement for pure A-A :wink:


Sorry but that analogy doesn't seem to make much sense, at least IMO since there's is not much that you can improve from the F-16 agility except for:
1- Increasing the High AoA agility which was done on the F-35 - Check!
2- Add TVC engines. These weren't added to the F-35 for a myriad as well as it wasn't also added in subsequent aircraft (such as Typhoon, Rafale, etc...). Cost, complexity and extra weight seem to pretty much cover the reasons why TVC weren't added in the F-35 as well as in most other fighter aircraft. This feature was however added to the F-22.

Note that the F-22 is more agile compared to the F-35 due in most part to the TVC engines. I wonder how would the F-22 compare to the F-35 in terms of agility if it didn't have TVC engines?

Now when comparing the F-4/F-104 to the F-16 there was indeed much room to improve in terms of agility.

Or putting into another perspective, I would say that compared to the F-16 and without the TVC requirement/possibility everything possible (considering current technology) was done in the F-35 in order to improve its agility compared to the F-16.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 07 May 2018, 22:11
by basher54321

USAF Air Power Year Book 2016

Col Christopher Niemi is the commander of the 33rd Operations Group. A seasoned F-15E and F-22 pilot, few are better qualified to provide an overview and evaluation of the F-35 training program. Speaking of his time flying the F-22, Niemi comments: ‘It was very helpful coming into this community’. He’d been flying the F-35 for 17 months at the time
of our meeting and was frank about the challenges that face his team at Eglin on a daily basis, not least those presented by the concurrency issue. ‘I didn’t know anything about the F-35 before I came here... there’s a lot of similarity [with the
F-22] but also some significant differences.
--

The F-22 was designed and optimized for the air-to-air mission and it can employ a JDAM very effectively, particularly in a high-threat environment.
The F-35 is the mirror image of that. The majority of its capabilities are focused on the air-to-ground mission — it’s going to be a great SEAD aircraft, very good at going into high-threat areas and attacking a target, plus flying CAS and all
the air-to-ground missions... It can also do air-to-air, but it wasn’t primarily designed to do air-to-air. We are going to use the F-35 for more air-to-air than we originally planned because we weren’t able to acquire sufficient numbers of
F-22s.


So hopefully this guy knows what he is talking about.

Based on what is in the public domain very difficult to gauge what the F-22 is really like re agility metrics - looks like a step up to me based on pilot comments. (FWIW)

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 08 May 2018, 01:34
by disconnectedradical
zero-one wrote:Airframe: The reason why I like to have it Raptor based so much is because if its a manned air superiority platform with VLO, Speed and Maneuverability as the KPP for the design, you really can't get much better than the F-22. It's already too fast and too maneuverable for its own human pilots. Making it faster and even more agile won't really do much more.

It's mature and can still hold up to any manned platform because it already reached the upper limits of what the body can withstand.


Why do you think only way to get F-22 performance is to use F-22 airframe? In 2020s with progress in aerodynamics and structures you can design new airframe to get F-22 performance or better while cheaper. Like how B-21 is cheaper and got better stealth than B-2 but doesn't use B-2 airframe. I don't know why you're trying so hard to make F-22 airframe the right answer. You're so satisfied with F-22 airframe that anything less is not good enough and anything better you think is too expensive? How do you get to that conclusion? What do you have to support that other than your instinct?

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 08 May 2018, 05:13
by strykerxo
disconnectedradical wrote:
zero-one wrote:Airframe: The reason why I like to have it Raptor based so much is because if its a manned air superiority platform with VLO, Speed and Maneuverability as the KPP for the design, you really can't get much better than the F-22. It's already too fast and too maneuverable for its own human pilots. Making it faster and even more agile won't really do much more.

It's mature and can still hold up to any manned platform because it already reached the upper limits of what the body can withstand.


Why do you think only way to get F-22 performance is to use F-22 airframe? In 2020s with progress in aerodynamics and structures you can design new airframe to get F-22 performance cheaper. Like how B-21 is cheaper and got better stealth than B-2 but doesn't use B-2 airframe. I don't know why you're trying so hard to make F-22 airframe the right answer. You're so satisfied with F-22 airframe that anything less is not good enough and anything better you think is too expensive? How do you get to that conclusion? What do you have to support that other than your instinct?


The B-2 would have been a far cheaper aircraft had it not been redesigned form a high to low altitude bomber, production economies and delay's in service. The B-21 is similar to the high altitude concept that Northrop envisioned.https://www.bing.com/images/search?view ... ajaxhist=0

We don't know but, I would have preferred a delta, diamond or cranked arrow, for more speed requirement.

The F-22 as a baseline airframe is a good start as seen in other projects Korea, Turkey, China, etc. etc. Years ago, general so and so (no disrespect), I'm paraphrasing as other technologies mature the airframe will be of secondary importance i.e. stealth, engines, SA, lasers, stand-off missiles, etc. etc.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 08 May 2018, 07:59
by zero-one
disconnectedradical wrote:Why do you think only way to get F-22 performance is to use F-22 airframe? In 2020s with progress in aerodynamics and structures you can design new airframe to get F-22 performance cheaper. Like how B-21 is cheaper and got better stealth than B-2 but doesn't use B-2 airframe. I don't know why you're trying so hard to make F-22 airframe the right answer. You're so satisfied with F-22 airframe that anything less is not good enough and anything better you think is too expensive? How do you get to that conclusion? What do you have to support that other than your instinct?


What I'm saying is:
Strictly in my opinion. The F-22 airframe fits the bill perfectly if the requirements are as follows:
VLO, Kinematics, Mature technology, short developed time frame.

there are many ways to get VLO and Kinematics using a clean sheet design, specially with today's advancements. I agree with you on that okay.

But is it mature technology? can it be developed in a short time frame? is it cheaper?

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 08 May 2018, 09:01
by zero-one
ricnunes wrote:
While and again I won't dispute (at least directly) that the F-22 could be "superior" to a single F-35 in air-to-air combat, there's NO WAY that a single F-22 is superior to two F-35s again in air-to-air combat, even against each other.


But as it stands the F-22 is actually cheaper to operate than the F-35 as per Business insider
https://www.businessinsider.sg/air-forc ... ?r=US&IR=T

The F-22 is pegged at $58k per hour while the F-35 is at $67k.
Now I know this will go down, but can they really bring it down to at least $29k which is half the F-22's current operating cost.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 08 May 2018, 09:10
by disconnectedradical
zero-one wrote:
disconnectedradical wrote:Why do you think only way to get F-22 performance is to use F-22 airframe? In 2020s with progress in aerodynamics and structures you can design new airframe to get F-22 performance cheaper. Like how B-21 is cheaper and got better stealth than B-2 but doesn't use B-2 airframe. I don't know why you're trying so hard to make F-22 airframe the right answer. You're so satisfied with F-22 airframe that anything less is not good enough and anything better you think is too expensive? How do you get to that conclusion? What do you have to support that other than your instinct?


What I'm saying is:
Strictly in my opinion. The F-22 airframe fits the bill perfectly if the requirements are as follows:
VLO, Kinematics, Mature technology, short developed time frame.

there are many ways to get VLO and Kinematics using a clean sheet design, specially with today's advancements. I agree with you on that okay.

But is it mature technology? can it be developed in a short time frame? is it cheaper?


F-22 airframe doesn't have enough range for Pacific operations even if you use ADVENT engines. But look at the timeline. It's 2018 and setting up production line just to make UN-UPGRADED F-22s will only have aircraft coming out after 2020. If you want to add ADVENT engines you need to test it all over again and if you want new sensors you need to test it too so after 2025 is what upgraded F-22 look like. If you look at B-21 the LRS-B started in 2009 and first flight will be early 2020s and PCA program is starting now. If you design a new PCA airframe with that kind of timeline you can get same or better performance than F-22 less than 10 years than if you restart F-22 production. So a few years more development and you get a better clean sheet PCA.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 08 May 2018, 09:25
by zero-one
But a clean sheet design is not mature technology. thats all I'm saying.
Unless they have a prototype flying around since 2010, anything new they create doesn't fit the "mature technology" state they're shooting for.

All of the hurdles you mentioned above apply to the clean sheet design as well, magnified exponentially. Unless what you're suggesting is that a clean sheet design will somehow be cheaper and developed in a shorter time than a proven mature design. Is that what you're saying?

as for Range in the Pacific theater, there are 3 ways to get around that
-ADVENT
-VLO tanker drones that are already in the works
-slight increase in internal fuel capacity via CFTs maybe.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 08 May 2018, 10:58
by disconnectedradical
zero-one wrote:But a clean sheet design is not mature technology. thats all I'm saying.
Unless they have a prototype flying around since 2010, anything new they create doesn't fit the "mature technology" state they're shooting for.

All of the hurdles you mentioned above apply to the clean sheet design as well, magnified exponentially. Unless what you're suggesting is that a clean sheet design will somehow be cheaper and developed in a shorter time than a proven mature design. Is that what you're saying?

as for Range in the Pacific theater, there are 3 ways to get around that
-ADVENT
-VLO tanker drones that are already in the works
-slight increase in internal fuel capacity via CFTs maybe.


Your definition of mature technology is a flying prototype but that’s not how Air Force see it. Mature technology isn’t always a flying prototype but how ready you are to put new technology into big scale manufacturing. Show me where Air Force thinks mature technology means current airframe.

And a clean sheet design can be made cheaper and better performance at the same time. Just look at B-21. So you think they should have used “mature” B-2 to save cost instead of making the new B-21? Resource put in restarting F-22 production is much better if it go into clean sheet PCA, much better for long term.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 08 May 2018, 11:36
by zero-one
for me, mature technology is self explanatory.
Its already existing. Possibly already fielded someway. Perfect example is the F-15E, Or maybe even the F/A-18E-G

I don't think Mature Tech was a requirement for the LRSB program, if it was, please give us a link, I don't mind being wrong. Plus we don't know that B-21 is coming in cheaper than the B-2. That remains to be seen. We also don't know if restarting the B-2 production on a mass scale would have been cheaper. There was no study on that.

Every defense contractor will tell you they can easily build a certain design and it will be cheap and delivered within a short schedule. It's not they're fault, thats their job, if they can't make a sales pitch, we would still be flying P-51s.

But as with all clean sheet designs, they usually arrive behind schedule and over budget. Even we F-22/35 supporters acknowledge this.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 08 May 2018, 16:27
by geforcerfx
PCA is a mix, clean sheet airframe mature engines and avionics to start. The avionics and software were most of the time and development sinks for both the F-22 and F-35, by carrying over that tech from the F-35 the reduction in workload and time will be significant. The B-21 is carrying over engine and avionics tech from the f-35 as well as the ram tech ( I will look upthe links on the thread). Your system for making the F-22 work in the Pacific is pretty funny, Advent won't be mature until the mid 2020s and you want to just snap our fingers and design a VLO tanker in 2-3 years? The airframe is not right for the mission set, it was designed for a different fight in a different region. We need range and payload that no matter how hard you try you can't efficiently get out of the F-22.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 08 May 2018, 16:49
by zero-one
Wait, you're saying its funny that I want to incorporate 2 existing projects (ADVENT and Stingrey programs ) to adapt an F-22 based platform into the pacific theater? But the USAF should seriously consider a clean sheet design with a development cycle of less than 10 years?

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 08 May 2018, 17:30
by SpudmanWP
zero-one wrote:But as it stands the F-22 is actually cheaper to operate than the F-35 as per Business insider
https://www.businessinsider.sg/air-forc ... ?r=US&IR=T


That is OLD info and is contradicted by the latest actual data on RCPFH where the F-35 is HALF that of the F-22.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 08 May 2018, 18:06
by disconnectedradical
zero-one wrote:for me, mature technology is self explanatory.
Its already existing. Possibly already fielded someway. Perfect example is the F-15E, Or maybe even the F/A-18E-G

I don't think Mature Tech was a requirement for the LRSB program, if it was, please give us a link, I don't mind being wrong. Plus we don't know that B-21 is coming in cheaper than the B-2. That remains to be seen. We also don't know if restarting the B-2 production on a mass scale would have been cheaper. There was no study on that.

Every defense contractor will tell you they can easily build a certain design and it will be cheap and delivered within a short schedule. It's not they're fault, thats their job, if they can't make a sales pitch, we would still be flying P-51s.

But as with all clean sheet designs, they usually arrive behind schedule and over budget. Even we F-22/35 supporters acknowledge this.


https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... em-416426/

There is no flying demonstrator, it has been confirmed, but plenty of prototyping activities and wind tunnel tests have been done, as well as parallel efforts to ready critical subsystems.

Sources who attended the briefing say the optionally-manned, penetrating bomber will be a collection of very mature technologies powered by an advanced derivative of an existing engine.

The air force says it wants to purchase 80 to 100 new bombers at $550 million per copy, and Hunter says that figure was primarily a design constraint used as an “appetite suppressant”.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 08 May 2018, 18:16
by disconnectedradical
zero-one wrote:Wait, you're saying its funny that I want to incorporate 2 existing projects (ADVENT and Stingrey programs ) to adapt an F-22 based platform into the pacific theater? But the USAF should seriously consider a clean sheet design with a development cycle of less than 10 years?


A clean sheet PCA will be more capable and if mature technology is used can be cheaper than F-22 like how B-21 is to B-2. Stingray is delayed already and you want to add more mission creep?

If you love F-22 this much how do you propose to restart production? Still don’t know why you’re so attached to this airframe. It’s good but technology moves on.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 09 May 2018, 00:31
by Corsair1963
Is the B-21 going to be powered by one of the ACE Engines from P&W or GE???

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 09 May 2018, 02:53
by popcorn
Corsair1963 wrote:Is the B-21 going to be powered by one of the ACE Engines from P&W or GE???



Pratt & Whitney will provide the engine for the Raider.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 09 May 2018, 05:36
by geforcerfx
zero-one wrote:Wait, you're saying its funny that I want to incorporate 2 existing projects (ADVENT and Stingrey programs ) to adapt an F-22 based platform into the pacific theater? But the USAF should seriously consider a clean sheet design with a development cycle of less than 10 years?


Advent is making it's way to the F-22 we know that, but you have taken the combat radius from 500nmi to 750nmi, way to short. Stingray won't work, it's a tactical tanker, the give is too small at the ranges they have to cover. So if you want to spend the time and effort to incorporate a boom onto a (unmanned)tactical tanker (remember these have to take off from Japan, Guam, Hawaii, Philippines) each stingray will add ~100-200nmi to two advent F-22's combat radius. To keep 100+ F-22's active you need 2 squads of tankers, which adds to theater logistics strain. None of this solves the biggest shortcoming for the F-22 taking on a role as PCA, armament. PCA needs a lot more weaponry than the F-22 can carry, even if you can create new weaponry to increase the F-22's payload the PCA could carry even more. PCA will have more weapon flexibility with larger overall payloads and they want them to have a radius in excess of 1,000nmi. The biggest problem with the ideas is all those same things could(or will) happen to the F-35 as well and have a better result. The F-35A could be configured to use a probe for refueling if the customer wants, meaning a naval standard stingray could be adopted for cheaper (still doesn't solve logistics and tactical tanker limitations). F-35's with advent engines will gain more range than the F-22 will, and will be closer to the 1,000nmi radius mark. The F-35 already has more weaponry flexibility than the F-22 and will gain even more over the next decade. The F-35 is already in production, is cheaper to buy and operate, so why even buy the F-22 when I can get more F-35's for cheaper and they beat it at most of what the air force wants for PCA?

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 09 May 2018, 07:34
by Corsair1963
popcorn wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:Is the B-21 going to be powered by one of the ACE Engines from P&W or GE???



Pratt & Whitney will provide the engine for the Raider.



F135, ACE, or ???

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 09 May 2018, 07:46
by popcorn
AETD-derived engine was mandated by Congress to have the same footprint as the F135. B-21 could start out with the F135 to mitigate risk and upgrade to the new engine later.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 09 May 2018, 07:55
by disconnectedradical
geforcerfx wrote:
zero-one wrote:Wait, you're saying its funny that I want to incorporate 2 existing projects (ADVENT and Stingrey programs ) to adapt an F-22 based platform into the pacific theater? But the USAF should seriously consider a clean sheet design with a development cycle of less than 10 years?


Advent is making it's way to the F-22 we know that, but you have taken the combat radius from 500nmi to 750nmi, way to short. Stingray won't work, it's a tactical tanker, the give is too small at the ranges they have to cover. So if you want to spend the time and effort to incorporate a boom onto a (unmanned)tactical tanker (remember these have to take off from Japan, Guam, Hawaii, Philippines) each stingray will add ~100-200nmi to two advent F-22's combat radius. To keep 100+ F-22's active you need 2 squads of tankers, which adds to theater logistics strain. None of this solves the biggest shortcoming for the F-22 taking on a role as PCA, armament. PCA needs a lot more weaponry than the F-22 can carry, even if you can create new weaponry to increase the F-22's payload the PCA could carry even more. PCA will have more weapon flexibility with larger overall payloads and they want them to have a radius in excess of 1,000nmi. The biggest problem with the ideas is all those same things could(or will) happen to the F-35 as well and have a better result. The F-35A could be configured to use a probe for refueling if the customer wants, meaning a naval standard stingray could be adopted for cheaper (still doesn't solve logistics and tactical tanker limitations). F-35's with advent engines will gain more range than the F-22 will, and will be closer to the 1,000nmi radius mark. The F-35 already has more weaponry flexibility than the F-22 and will gain even more over the next decade. The F-35 is already in production, is cheaper to buy and operate, so why even buy the F-22 when I can get more F-35's for cheaper and they beat it at most of what the air force wants for PCA?


F-22 and F-35 subsonic range is similar so to really get good range for Pacific you need clean sheet design and something designed for ADVENT from start.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 09 May 2018, 14:12
by zero-one
Just to be clear, I'm not against a clean sheet design. I just don't think it fits the air force's requirement of PCA being based on mature technology.

Here are some of the problems with the arguments stated

1. F-22 restart is too expensive but somehow a clean sheet top to bottom new fighter program isn't?

2
geforcerfx wrote: None of this solves the biggest shortcoming for the F-22 taking on a role as PCA, armament. PCA needs a lot more weaponry than the F-22 can carry........the biggest problem with the ideas is all those same things could(or will) happen to the F-35 as well and have a better result.


well first when has the F-22's weapons payload ever been a concern. I have never read a publication where the F-22's payload was questioned. If you have any links, please feel free to share.

Second, are we too biased towards the F-35. It actually holds less air to air weapons than the F-22 but its still better?

Look I love the F-35, but its still the 2nd best A-A platform, watching the JSF program special on National geographic reiterated it over and over that the aircraft was primarily a strike platform with secondary (but substantial) air superiority requirements.

It doesn't have the laser emphasis on A-A like the F-22 did. So its actually my 3rd option for PCA.
1. F-22 bassed Super Raptor
2. Clean sheet
3. F-35C based

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 09 May 2018, 15:33
by mixelflick
Both platforms (F-22 and F-35) have solid reasons why each might be the "base" for this F-22/35 hybrid. I tend to think though that the F-22 airframe would win out, even considering it's not an active production line. What tilts things in favor of the F-22 in my mind is this: Size.

It's bigger, so you'd have more room to stuff additional avionics (i.e. cheek arrays never used), weapons etc.. By the time you got done "up-scaling" an F-35 to be twin engined, bigger air to air loadout, etc it would essentially be a new airframe. Then again, McDonnel Douglass snowed Congress into thinking the Super Hornet was just a super sized legacy F/A-18.

I still think the F-22 airframe is the starting point. If need be, a fuselage plug would add much needed fuel to the equation. Two big engines. Check. F-35 like RAM. Check. F-35+ sensor suite. Check. Maybe even airborne laser.

We shall see...

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 09 May 2018, 23:08
by strykerxo
mixelflick wrote:Both platforms (F-22 and F-35) have solid reasons why each might be the "base" for this F-22/35 hybrid. I tend to think though that the F-22 airframe would win out, even considering it's not an active production line. What tilts things in favor of the F-22 in my mind is this: Size.

It's bigger, so you'd have more room to stuff additional avionics (i.e. cheek arrays never used), weapons etc.. By the time you got done "up-scaling" an F-35 to be twin engined, bigger air to air loadout, etc it would essentially be a new airframe. Then again, McDonnel Douglass snowed Congress into thinking the Super Hornet was just a super sized legacy F/A-18.

I still think the F-22 airframe is the starting point. If need be, a fuselage plug would add much needed fuel to the equation. Two big engines. Check. F-35 like RAM. Check. F-35+ sensor suite. Check. Maybe even airborne laser.

We shall see...


multi-axis TV could eliminate weight and drag, by either reducing or eliminating v/h tails

stealth weapon/fuel pods, similar to ASH

fuselage plug could allow for larger weapons bay

new hyper velocity and stand-off weapons

self-defense laser

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 10 May 2018, 04:38
by Corsair1963
mixelflick wrote:Both platforms (F-22 and F-35) have solid reasons why each might be the "base" for this F-22/35 hybrid. I tend to think though that the F-22 airframe would win out, even considering it's not an active production line. What tilts things in favor of the F-22 in my mind is this: Size.

It's bigger, so you'd have more room to stuff additional avionics (i.e. cheek arrays never used), weapons etc.. By the time you got done "up-scaling" an F-35 to be twin engined, bigger air to air loadout, etc it would essentially be a new airframe. Then again, McDonnel Douglass snowed Congress into thinking the Super Hornet was just a super sized legacy F/A-18.

I still think the F-22 airframe is the starting point. If need be, a fuselage plug would add much needed fuel to the equation. Two big engines. Check. F-35 like RAM. Check. F-35+ sensor suite. Check. Maybe even airborne laser.

We shall see...


First, I believe this whole idea of a F-22/F-35 Hybrid is highly unlikely in the case of Japan. (or anybody else for that matter)

Nonetheless, if such a type was developed. I believe you could make a far better "case" for it to based on the F-35. Which, will be produced in large numbers and for decades to come. As the more in common between the two the more viable the F22/F-35 Hybrid would be....For example the F-35's P&W F135 has a number of upgrades currently in development. Plus, both GE and P&W are developing even more capable Adaptive Cycle Engines. (ACE) If, the core of the F-22/F-35 Hybrid was based on the F-35. Either type could be used! So, what upgrades or future engines are in the works for the F-22??? See my point...

So, my take on the Hybrid would use the nose, cockpit, and fuselage of the F-35. While, the Wings and other Flight Surfaces would be more similar with the F-22. Allowing the new aircraft to have higher flight performance than the existing F-35. In essence the best of both worlds. (best feature of both) Which, is the whole point of a Hybrid in the first place.

Just my :2c:

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 10 May 2018, 05:03
by citanon
I don't really see how you get much better kinematic performance without putting on a second engine.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 10 May 2018, 06:34
by geforcerfx
citanon wrote:I don't really see how you get much better kinematic performance without putting on a second engine.


Lighten the frame with more advanced composites that we weren't as comfortable with in the early 2000's, add in newer more powerful engine. So take a future F-35C based aircraft, getting that airframe from 34,500 down to 28,000lbs empty for a land based fighter. Then throwing a adaptive cycle engine that has 35,000lbs of dry thrust and 52,000lbs of afterburner would improve the overall performance over a base F-35C in almost all areas. Again not going to meet most of the demands for PCA, but if that had a TVC engine in it you just made a much cheaper F-22 with longer range and better multi-role.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 10 May 2018, 08:31
by disconnectedradical
zero-one wrote:Just to be clear, I'm not against a clean sheet design. I just don't think it fits the air force's requirement of PCA being based on mature technology.

Here are some of the problems with the arguments stated

1. F-22 restart is too expensive but somehow a clean sheet top to bottom new fighter program isn't?

2
geforcerfx wrote: None of this solves the biggest shortcoming for the F-22 taking on a role as PCA, armament. PCA needs a lot more weaponry than the F-22 can carry........the biggest problem with the ideas is all those same things could(or will) happen to the F-35 as well and have a better result.


well first when has the F-22's weapons payload ever been a concern. I have never read a publication where the F-22's payload was questioned. If you have any links, please feel free to share.

Second, are we too biased towards the F-35. It actually holds less air to air weapons than the F-22 but its still better?

Look I love the F-35, but its still the 2nd best A-A platform, watching the JSF program special on National geographic reiterated it over and over that the aircraft was primarily a strike platform with secondary (but substantial) air superiority requirements.

It doesn't have the laser emphasis on A-A like the F-22 did. So its actually my 3rd option for PCA.
1. F-22 bassed Super Raptor
2. Clean sheet
3. F-35C based


Why so set on using F-22 airframe? ADVENT can't give enough range for the Pacific. If you want to use mature technology even YF-23 is better place to start than F-22 because it's better suited for what they need because it's better supercruiser with more range.

Clean sheet is much better idea than enhancing F-22. The B-21 is new airframe even when it is using mature technology and it will be stealthier but cheaper than B-2. The same can happen to PCA vs F-22.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 10 May 2018, 14:02
by wrightwing
Getting back to the original topic, Japan doesn't need PCA range. They just want F-22 kinematics, with F-35 avionics.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 10 May 2018, 15:23
by ricnunes
SpudmanWP wrote:
zero-one wrote:But as it stands the F-22 is actually cheaper to operate than the F-35 as per Business insider
https://www.businessinsider.sg/air-forc ... ?r=US&IR=T


That is OLD info and is contradicted by the latest actual data on RCPFH where the F-35 is HALF that of the F-22.


Exactly SpudmanWP!

Moreover, the F-35 just entered in service while the F-22 have been on service for more than a decade now! This means that the maintenance and the supply part lines are well established for the F-22 where for the F-35 this is only starting now.
And again like Spudman said, the operational costs of the F-35 are already HALF of those on the F-22 and I have absolutely no doubts that the F-35 will become even cheaper to operate as more and more F-35's are manufactured and the maintenance and supply part lines are and will be well established - And then there's ALIS which promises to reduce the F-35 maintenance/operational costs even further.

@zero-one, please don't get me wrong but I also trend to agree with others here when they say that you're trying so hard to make the case for a F-22 re-manufacture when this makes absolutely no sense at all while at the same time trying to come with non-existing arguments (like the F-22 being "cheaper to operate", which isn't!).
This being said, the F-22 is an awesome fighter aircraft but... (there's the F-35)

By the way, I would also like to add that I fully agree with geforcerfx's two latest posts (and with other similar posts from other members here as well).

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid

Unread postPosted: 10 May 2018, 17:54
by zero-one
disconnectedradical wrote:The B-21 is new airframe even when it is using mature technology and it will be stealthier but cheaper than B-2. The same can happen to PCA vs F-22.


We don't know that yet. The B-21 isn't in production and info about it is scarce so we don't know if its going to be cheaper than the B-2 program.

@Rincnunes,

Some guys here are agreeing with me also. But this isn't a contest of who gets more likes. We share opinions and sometimes the unpopular opinion gets to be the right one.

I remember 5 or 6 years ago when I said that if needed, F-22/35 pilots would not hesitate going to a merge if thats what the mission calls for. Everyone was against it, this is not some knighly chivalrous contest they said, pilots would rather go BVR, cheat or go home they said. And this came from some really respected people here.

And just a few months ago Tailgate said that if he needed to mix it up, he wouldn't hesitate to do it. Just like I said 6 years ago. Maj. Hanche implied the same thing as well

Anyway, back to my point, all Im saying is the F-22 as it is, remains to be a good choice for PCA if the USAF wants to use mature technology ala Superhornet,

You can't use the F-35. Its easier to give the F-22, the F-35's strengths than to give the F-35 the F-22's strengths. The F-35 was also created with a substantial emphasis on Strike missions which the PCA won't be doing.

The only real advantage of the F-35 against the Raptor is in sensors, these sensors can or may actually be integrated into the F-22 in the future. But to turn the F-35 into a supercruiser, turn it to an ultra high altitude flyer, make it super maneuverable in both post stall and supersonic regeimes, heck even giving it a bigger radar will prove problematic.


With Cleansheet, sure, will it be more capable, definitely, can they do it in 10 years? Is it mature technology? Is it cheaper?
I don't know, but its probably not

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 10 May 2018, 21:45
by geforcerfx
PCA will conduct strike, it has to, the USAF will not accept a combat aircraft in 2030 that cannot be used for strike missions. What do you think is replacing the F-15E? It's not the F-35A. Everything that makes PCA good at it's named mission make it good for long range penetrating strike.

I think basing the PCA off the F-22 makes it a dud from the get go. Either your completely redesigning significant parts of the F-22 to make it match PCA's mission( so your cost and time advantage are gone), or your have a really crappy PCA with limited improvements over the base F-22. If that's the route they go better to just put that money into F-35 upgrades and buy a few hundred more of them, if your gonna half a$$ it might as well do it the cheap way and not be the Navy.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid

Unread postPosted: 10 May 2018, 22:33
by ricnunes
zero-one wrote:@Rincnunes,

Some guys here are agreeing with me also. But this isn't a contest of who gets more likes. We share opinions and sometimes the unpopular opinion gets to be the right one.


Yes, I agree with you that this isn't a "contest of likes" - this isn't Facebook afterall (and thank god for that) :wink:

My point was only to avoid quoting and repeating points that were already posted by other users and which I fully agree with.

For example and another example, I fully agree (again) with geforcerfx - PCA won't be a "fully" or mainly dedicated Air-to-Air combat. PCA will be a full multi-role combat aircraft like the F-35. IMO, the days of developing dedicated air-to-air fighter aircraft are gone.


zero-one wrote:The only real advantage of the F-35 against the Raptor is in sensors, these sensors can or may actually be integrated into the F-22 in the future.


Again, no it isn't. Cost - both acquisition and operational - are much better on the F-35. A clear advantage of the F-35 over the F-22.
Range is another spec in which the F-35 also beats the F-22! And this (together with cost) are two major advantages that the PCA should/must have. I would even dare to say that Range is more important than Supercruise, this even for the PCA.


zero-one wrote:But to turn the F-35 into a supercruiser, turn it to an ultra high altitude flyer, make it super maneuverable in both post stall and supersonic regeimes, heck even giving it a bigger radar will prove problematic.


And restarting a F-22 production line and changing it in order to give it far more range (on internal fuel only) and more internal weapons isn't?

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 11 May 2018, 06:07
by zero-one
geforcerfx wrote:I think basing the PCA off the F-22 makes it a dud from the get go. Either your completely redesigning significant parts of the F-22 to make it match PCA's mission( so your cost and time advantage are gone), or your have a really crappy PCA with limited improvements over the base F-22. If that's the route they go better to just put that money into F-35 upgrades and buy a few hundred more of them, if your gonna half a$$ it might as well do it the cheap way and not be the Navy.


See this what I don't understand, basing it off the F-22 is a dud but upgrading the F-35 is better? Why?

The range improvement of the F-35 over the F-22 is not all that large in the first place. In fact somone posted here that their subsonic cruise range is almost the same. Not sure about that, but if its true, then the only real advantage of the F-35 is cost and the fact that it is still in production.

But there is no evidence that redesigning the F-35 to meet PCA requirements will be cheaper than restarting the F-22.

My point is simply, if and thats a big if, the choice came down to upgrading the F-22 or F-35 for PCA, I have the same opinion as Col. Lance Wilkins, an F-15 instructor

While the F-35 is a great airplane, it is not designed specifically for, nor as capable in, the air superiority realm. Not to be trite, but a lot of air superiority and “first look-first shot-first kill” is a compilation of physics equations, and in this, the F-22 wins hands-down.

https://www.realcleardefense.com/articl ... 11075.html

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 11 May 2018, 06:14
by wrightwing
The PCA will be a clean sheet design. Not an upgraded F-22/35. Neither design has the room to upgrade fuel/weapon capacity. The PCA will likely take signature reduction far beyond what is capable with the F-22/35, as well

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 11 May 2018, 06:48
by eloise
zero-one wrote:]
See this what I don't understand, basing it off the F-22 is a dud but upgrading the F-35 is better? Why?
The range improvement of the F-35 over the F-22 is not all that large in the first place. In fact somone posted here that their subsonic cruise range is almost the same. Not sure about that, but if its true, then the only real advantage of the F-35 is cost and the fact that it is still in production.

F-35 and F-22 have around the same fuel capacity but F-35 has 1 engine while F-22 has 2, so i would say the combat radius of F-35 is much better and AETD upgraded seem to benefit it more too
Image
Advantages of F-35: range, cost, currently in production, sensors (already have IRST/use more modern databus, chips).
Advantages of F-22: speed, agility.
Advantages of F-35 may sound a lot less sexy but arguably much more important/practical for the acquisition process of PCA. Consider stuff like HEL/EMP then kinematics will become even less important

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid

Unread postPosted: 11 May 2018, 12:19
by disconnectedradical
zero-one wrote:
disconnectedradical wrote:The B-21 is new airframe even when it is using mature technology and it will be stealthier but cheaper than B-2. The same can happen to PCA vs F-22.


We don't know that yet. The B-21 isn't in production and info about it is scarce so we don't know if its going to be cheaper than the B-2 program.

@Rincnunes,

Some guys here are agreeing with me also. But this isn't a contest of who gets more likes. We share opinions and sometimes the unpopular opinion gets to be the right one.

I remember 5 or 6 years ago when I said that if needed, F-22/35 pilots would not hesitate going to a merge if thats what the mission calls for. Everyone was against it, this is not some knighly chivalrous contest they said, pilots would rather go BVR, cheat or go home they said. And this came from some really respected people here.

And just a few months ago Tailgate said that if he needed to mix it up, he wouldn't hesitate to do it. Just like I said 6 years ago. Maj. Hanche implied the same thing as well

Anyway, back to my point, all Im saying is the F-22 as it is, remains to be a good choice for PCA if the USAF wants to use mature technology ala Superhornet,

You can't use the F-35. Its easier to give the F-22, the F-35's strengths than to give the F-35 the F-22's strengths. The F-35 was also created with a substantial emphasis on Strike missions which the PCA won't be doing.

The only real advantage of the F-35 against the Raptor is in sensors, these sensors can or may actually be integrated into the F-22 in the future. But to turn the F-35 into a supercruiser, turn it to an ultra high altitude flyer, make it super maneuverable in both post stall and supersonic regeimes, heck even giving it a bigger radar will prove problematic.


With Cleansheet, sure, will it be more capable, definitely, can they do it in 10 years? Is it mature technology? Is it cheaper?
I don't know, but its probably not


So you keep saying mature technology means existing airframe even when a program like B-21 use mature technology but still have a new airframe? Mature technology isn’t same as using existing airframe, What don’t you understand? If you want half a$$ PCA by enhancing F-22 what happens when China Russia and EU make a bigger leap to 6th gen? It will be like making F-15 Silent Eagle instead of ATF and face J-20 and Su-57.

geforcerfx wrote:PCA will conduct strike, it has to, the USAF will not accept a combat aircraft in 2030 that cannot be used for strike missions. What do you think is replacing the F-15E? It's not the F-35A. Everything that makes PCA good at it's named mission make it good for long range penetrating strike.

I think basing the PCA off the F-22 makes it a dud from the get go. Either your completely redesigning significant parts of the F-22 to make it match PCA's mission( so your cost and time advantage are gone), or your have a really crappy PCA with limited improvements over the base F-22. If that's the route they go better to just put that money into F-35 upgrades and buy a few hundred more of them, if your gonna half a$$ it might as well do it the cheap way and not be the Navy.


B-21 will replace F-15E. Clean sheet PCA will be much stealthier than F-22 and F-35.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 11 May 2018, 15:51
by geforcerfx
zero-one wrote:
See this what I don't understand, basing it off the F-22 is a dud but upgrading the F-35 is better? Why?


Basing the PCA off either frame is basically half assing it, if we re half assing it it's because of cost. So if we are going to half a$$ it might as well take the cheaper option in upgraded F-35's, which by 2025-2030 might very well be within 10% of the F-22's kinematic performance, looking at the planned upgrades, better engine (already here) more missiles (6 matches the F-22) and better avionics(new EODAS and EOTAS).

The range improvement of the F-35 over the F-22 is not all that large in the first place. In fact somone posted here that their subsonic cruise range is almost the same. Not sure about that, but if its true, then the only real advantage of the F-35 is cost and the fact that it is still in production.


Subsonic A2A F-22 radius is ~600nmi, F-35A is 760nmi, I guess 300nmi additional is small to some. But that range growth is only going to get greater with advent engines, 1,000nmi for the F-35 and only 750-800nmi for the F-22.

But there is no evidence that redesigning the F-35 to meet PCA requirements will be cheaper than restarting the F-22.


Your right, there is just he logic of it being a hot production line with engineers still at the company the worked on and designed the air craft. Versus setting up a new assembly line, creating a hybrid half new half old aircraft and integrating a bunch of new tech into it.


PCA will be a new airframe, airframes actually aren't as difficult to make and test as everything else(we have a lot of experience with it). If PCA is a new airframe with maximum stealth, tons of fuel and can haul around 16 Amramms it will be perfect. It can be made in the time frame and cost they want by taking all the avionics from the F-35 and using them, all the software, the engines. Carry all that over and you just shaved 5-6 years of development and testing off of the program. It will need only one new thing, a larger more powerful radar, and over the 2030's money will need to be invested in upgrades for sure. Another bonus is if we use F-35 systems they are cleared for export, making the aircraft potentially exportable allowing the cost to drop further for he select countries that could afford it and need it.

That's why I see wasting time on a hybrid for Japan as stupid, they can pick upgraded F-35's (which they are building in Japan anyways) or they can pick to join PCA with a slightly custom variant.



disconnectedradical wrote:
B-21 will replace F-15E. Clean sheet PCA will be much stealthier than F-22 and F-35.

Replacing a tactical asset with a strategic one? I guess if you team up PCA and B-21 you get the penetration aspect for the F-15E. I still think PCA will end up doing it, long range, large payload, makes sense.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 11 May 2018, 18:03
by citanon
I would caution on thinking about PCA as a sure fire thing.

https://www.military.com/dodbuzz/2018/0 ... ogies.html

Notice the shifts in the AF of systems and requirements. I believe the NGAD concepts outlined concepts around networks and ew. In terms of immediate priorities AF seems to be shifting to rolling out fifth gen ideas across it's platforms.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 12 May 2018, 09:09
by zero-one
The way I understand it is, if PCA goes into production it would need its own assembly line anyway. You can't use the F-35's assembly line to produce an F-35 based PCA. If I'm wrong on this, then please tell me, I have no problem with that.

B-21 (judging by the released info) seems to be heavily influenced by the B-2. So thats what I'm rooting for. If PCA will be bassed on an existing platform, what would be easier\cheaper to do:

a) turn an F-35 into a super cruising, extreme high altitude , super maneuverable platform with an emphasis on A-A.
b) give the F-22 DAS, IRST and more fuel.

I just think B is easier, cheaper and meets the mature tech requirement.

both will have ADVENT, both will have better sensors and better datalinks, both will have better RAM materials for improved RCS reduction, they will also have DI weapons (more room in the Raptor obviously)

It won't be as good as a clean sheet design, but it will have a shorter time frame, it'll almost certainly be cheaper and have that mature technology stamp

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 12 May 2018, 13:53
by disconnectedradical
zero-one wrote:The way I understand it is, if PCA goes into production it would need its own assembly line anyway. You can't use the F-35's assembly line to produce an F-35 based PCA. If I'm wrong on this, then please tell me, I have no problem with that.

B-21 (judging by the released info) seems to be heavily influenced by the B-2. So thats what I'm rooting for. If PCA will be bassed on an existing platform, what would be easier\cheaper to do:

a) turn an F-35 into a super cruising, extreme high altitude , super maneuverable platform with an emphasis on A-A.
b) give the F-22 DAS, IRST and more fuel.

I just think B is easier, cheaper and meets the mature tech requirement.

both will have ADVENT, both will have better sensors and better datalinks, both will have better RAM materials for improved RCS reduction, they will also have DI weapons (more room in the Raptor obviously)

It won't be as good as a clean sheet design, but it will have a shorter time frame, it'll almost certainly be cheaper and have that mature technology stamp


B-21 is a new airframe. The intake and wing shape and sweep will be different and engine configuration will be different. All this mean new airframe. And you still keep thinking mature technology means existing airframe when that’s wrong. Using your logic a F-15 Silent Eagle should be made instead of F-22 in the 90s. Then see how it compares to Su-57 and J-20.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 12 May 2018, 14:11
by count_to_10
zero-one wrote:The way I understand it is, if PCA goes into production it would need its own assembly line anyway. You can't use the F-35's assembly line to produce an F-35 based PCA. If I'm wrong on this, then please tell me, I have no problem with that.

B-21 (judging by the released info) seems to be heavily influenced by the B-2. So thats what I'm rooting for. If PCA will be bassed on an existing platform, what would be easier\cheaper to do:

a) turn an F-35 into a super cruising, extreme high altitude , super maneuverable platform with an emphasis on A-A.
b) give the F-22 DAS, IRST and more fuel.

I just think B is easier, cheaper and meets the mature tech requirement.

both will have ADVENT, both will have better sensors and better datalinks, both will have better RAM materials for improved RCS reduction, they will also have DI weapons (more room in the Raptor obviously)

It won't be as good as a clean sheet design, but it will have a shorter time frame, it'll almost certainly be cheaper and have that mature technology stamp

So, about the way only things the F-35 needs to be “a super cruising, extreme high altitude , super maneuverable platform with an emphasis on A-A“ is an engine with more thrust and a missile that can be carried like a SDB.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 12 May 2018, 14:41
by zero-one
disconnectedradical wrote: Using your logic a F-15 Silent Eagle should be made instead of F-22 in the 90s. Then see how it compares to Su-57 and J-20.


Well yes, if the requirement of the ATF was to use "mature technology" and have a development cycle of less than 10 years. then yes.

But it wasn't. In fact, watching Test Pilot Paul Metz's testimony, he said that the design team were designing a fighter for 2005 back in the 1980s. The Avionics test bed for ATF program was housed inside a Boeing 757 because the computers at the time would not fit in a fighter sized aircraft. They were gambling on the notion that by 2005, computers should be small enough to house all those avionics into a fighter sized platform.

So they were really looking ahead at what could be, not what is. But thats not what the PCA is going for.

So, about the way only things the F-35 needs to be “a super cruising, extreme high altitude , super maneuverable platform with an emphasis on A-A“ is an engine with more thrust and a missile that can be carried like a SDB.


I don't think Engine power is the only thing that makes the F-22 the way it is. Don't you have to redesign the wing for that, increase the sweep angle maybe, then you'll have to do the same for tail to have that whole planned formed alignment thing.
then theres the whole radar dome size which is smaller for the F-35.

But hey I'm no engineer. If all it took for the F-35 to have F-22 kinematics is to slap bigger engines then why didn't Japan just ask for bigger F-135 engines or fast track ADVENT. Why this whole F-22/35 hybrid thing

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 12 May 2018, 21:23
by citanon
I don't think any of the manufacturers project that ADVENT would give the F35 supercruising performance like the F22. They project better range, higher sustained speed at low altitude due to better cooling, and better acceleration but not significantly higher speed at military thrust levels.

I could be wrong (if so please give a link).

This is a gross simplification but remember that aerodynamic drag scales as the square of the velocity. It takes a lot of extra thrust to change your drag limited top speed from < mach 1 to mach 1.8.

If you want F22 type kinematics (supercruise, acceleration and altitude) you will need twin engines, and F22 type aerodynamic configuration.

I don't see a possible universe where you could upgrade the engines on a F35 and get there. What you will need to do is to re-engineer the F22 for the F35 production process and use F35 air frame materials, sensors, and avionics.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 12 May 2018, 22:52
by madrat
Obviously that would not work either. You need YF-23 scaled to use F414X motors and it to be optional to have swingwings, canards, thrust vectoring, levcons, dsi, and every other fanboy fantasy.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 12 May 2018, 22:58
by count_to_10
citanon wrote:I don't think any of the manufacturers project that ADVENT would give the F35 supercruising performance like the F22. They project better range, higher sustained speed at low altitude due to better cooling, and better acceleration but not significantly higher speed at military thrust levels.

I could be wrong (if so please give a link).

This is a gross simplification but remember that aerodynamic drag scales as the square of the velocity. It takes a lot of extra thrust to change your drag limited top speed from < mach 1 to mach 1.8.
.

From what I have read, there is a component that goes as the square, but it is multiplied by another factor that falls from Mach 1 to Mach 1.5 or so.
If the new engines aren’t being designed to let the F-35 supercruise, it is because that isn’t a priority.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 13 May 2018, 01:10
by wrightwing
A) the B-21 is a clean sheet design
B ) the PCA (or whatever it is eventually called, is a clean sheet design.)
C ) the engine upgrades for the F-35, will definitely provide improved acceleration, range, persistence. They may very well improve cruise speed/max speed, too. They won't give the F-35 supersonic performance like the F-22, but its subsonic/transonic performance should be on par/superior to any competitors or threats.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 13 May 2018, 06:21
by geforcerfx
F-35 vs F-22 mil power compare.jpg


I think a very large aspect of the F-22's dominance in the supercruise areas is the Mil power T/W ratio it has. At .80 nothing other than the Typhoon (at .76) is even close. Most other fighters are in the mid to high .60s. The F-35 with it's massive fuel fraction is only .57 (comparable to other high fuel fraction aircraft) and when we match the F-22's 28% fuel fraction we are at a mil T/W of .65. FOr a engine upgrade to give the F-35 the power (so not counting other things) to supercruise well it needs to deliver around the 35,000lbs mark. If the F135 block 1 upgrade is on the higher end of it's power increase curve then it's already got a 31,000lbs option. Advent has to add another 3,000-4,000lbs of dry thrust for it to get closer to the F-22's mil T/W ratio. When that happens I could see the F-35 being decent at supercruising @1.4-1.5 mach at altitude. If advent can provide that type of performance upgrade and capability then I think the F-35 would serve the Japanese and all of it's other users in the Air defense role quiet well, plus all the advantages variable cycle brings for the main strike role and subsonic cruise power. I would venture a guess if the F-22 had more Al-31 style engines with large afterburner numbers but small mil power numbers it's supercruise would be far more limited.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 13 May 2018, 08:39
by citanon
But another significant factor apart from engine power is the aerodynamic configuration. A large amount of effort on the design evolution of the F22 was devoted to reducing drag, and supersonic drag was a particularly vexing problem.

http://www.codeonemagazine.com/article.html?item_id=180

The prototype design was unfrozen at the last minute in May 1988 after the Air Force eliminated the requirement for thrust reversing for short-field operations. The change allowed the team to alter the external mold lines on the aft fuselage and nozzles in the area around the thrust reversers. The trimmed aft end reduced drag significantly. "We never had an airplane with the right supersonic drag until May," Mullin explains. "We scared the Air Force when we unfroze the prototype design at that late date. The supersonic drag was still too high to supercruise. A team led by Ed Glasgow, our chief flight sciences engineer, redesigned the forebody and aftbody. Suddenly we had acceptable supersonic drag levels that ensured that the airplane would supercruise."


The F35 as it stands is optimized for trans sonic performance. For starters it has less wing sweep. For efficient supercruise, its aerodynamic configuration would likely need significant revisions.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 13 May 2018, 12:29
by vanshilar
geforcerfx wrote:I think a very large aspect of the F-22's dominance in the supercruise areas is the Mil power T/W ratio it has.


Eh I think mil power T/W isn't a particularly good comparison. For example, the Gripen NG supposedly supercruises using an engine with 13,000 lb of mil thrust (unless the engine plans have changed in the meantime), weighing 17,600 lb empty with 7500 lb of internal fuel capacity. At 28% fuel fraction, the T/W is just 0.53, and that's assuming no weapons; weapons would decrease the T/W further.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 13 May 2018, 12:55
by fbw
vanshilar wrote:
geforcerfx wrote:I think a very large aspect of the F-22's dominance in the supercruise areas is the Mil power T/W ratio it has.


Eh I think mil power T/W isn't a particularly good comparison. For example, the Gripen NG supposedly supercruises using an engine with 13,000 lb of mil.


Why does everyone quote that number? The F414-GE-400 produces 14,327 lbs of thrust in military power. As far as supercruise, SAAB can claim whatever they want, it will be interesting to see them demonstrating that outside of the cold, dry air of Sweden when loaded for a mission.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 13 May 2018, 13:04
by basher54321
geforcerfx wrote:
I think a very large aspect of the F-22's dominance in the supercruise areas is the Mil power T/W ratio it has.



As above from vanshilar - Supercruise is top speed in mil power - so drag is what you need to look at not weight (Max aero speed is when Thrust == Drag). Spurts listed some figures in Strike Fighters v2 (2016) for drag area.

Other major factor - F-22 likely retains higher relative dynamic thrust as you go higher due to having a lower bypass ratio engine.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 13 May 2018, 14:23
by madrat
Doesn't the size of the intake become a significant limitation, too?

I would venture if F135 requires the same intake size as two F414, the F-135 would still be better due to less drag from a larger single face. The smaller the engine face the more resistance to flow. And since flow restriction is exponentially related to overall size, it wouldn't be a tiny difference. Maybe by the time you hide the front face of the turbine it becomes less of a factor, but actual flow through the engine would be significantly less impeded on the single larger engine, giving an edge in efficiency.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 13 May 2018, 14:26
by mixelflick
It will be a new airframe, but one which a lot of work has already been done on...

It will be much larger than the F-22 (think fuselage plugs), be much faster and of course have much greater range. Entire missions will be able to be flown in super-cruise. Hell that was done 25 years ago WITHOUT ADVENT engines. It will be much stealthier, and have more room for F-35 like sensors. This aircraft has already been built, flown, tested and found to be the best fighter America never put into production. But it's coming back, because you're right - starting with an F-22 OR F-35 airframe is half assing it. We don't need to, we already have something "new" waiting in the wings.

And finally, finally, the design team that created her will be vindicated....

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 13 May 2018, 18:04
by vanshilar
fbw wrote:
vanshilar wrote:Why does everyone quote that number? The F414-GE-400 produces 14,327 lbs of thrust in military power.


Eh mostly because that's the number quoted in most places for it and I'm too lazy to look further. I assume you're referring to this source:

https://soff.se/wp-content/uploads/2017 ... g-2017.pdf

where it says the Gripen E has >64 kN of thrust in military power. If so, are you sure that's based on currently available thrust, versus what they project to have following unspecified technical developments? After all, that document also says the max takeoff weight is now 17,000 kg when it used to be 16,500 kg, and 16,000 kg before that.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 13 May 2018, 18:29
by fbw
vanshilar wrote:
fbw wrote:
vanshilar wrote:Why does everyone quote that number? The F414-GE-400 produces 14,327 lbs of thrust in military power.


Eh mostly because that's the number quoted in most places for it and I'm too lazy to look further. I assume you're referring to this source:

https://soff.se/wp-content/uploads/2017 ... g-2017.pdf


No, I’ve gotten the thrust figures from several different studies (one in particular, from RAND about military turbofan development had manufacturer or USAF figures on nearly every current fighter engine, except the one everyone would like to know). My guess is that most sites applied the old 60% rule of thumb: 22,000lbs thrust class engine ~ 13,000lbs thrust military power. Works well enough in general but the F414 has a low bypass ratio.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 14 May 2018, 15:03
by mixelflick
It's interesting that Lockheed proposed this...

Their cash cow is the F-35. They know it. The air force knows it. Everybody knows it. But they raised the ghost of the F-22 for a reason.. What could it be? I suspect to get a leg up on PCA...

Think about it: It'd be a nice lead in project for them. Allegedly the Air Force wants existing/off the shelf technologies to shorten the PCA's developmental cycle. A lot of that would be found in this F-22/F-35 hybrid, and they'd be doing it on Japans dime. Yes, we've allocated a lot to study/design PCA. But every dollar LM saves in applying lessons learned from this hybrid is a dollar earned. They'd be able to offer a finished PCA at a discounted price with technologies and manufacturing techniques refined here.

What do you think? I think it'll for sure give them a leg up vs. Boeing and any other PCA competition...

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 14 May 2018, 16:07
by SpudmanWP
If Japan's required specs simply cannot be met by the F-35, then LM has no choice but to offer that. IIRC the two that I can remember are Japanese engines and radars. On top of that, cost may be an issues that forces LM to either hybridize or propose a lesser fighter as a clean-sheet design.

Remember that the costliest item v(in time and money) to develop was the avionics and that can be easily brought over from the F-35 (except for the required Japanese radar).

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 15 May 2018, 03:32
by Corsair1963
Japan is not going to fund an F-22/F-35 Hybrid. Hell, they are lucky to be able to afford a modest number of F-35's each year. Which, she must have to counter the current and projected Chinese Threats from the PLAAF and PLAN. (i.e. J-20 and J-31)


As I have said over and over again. The most likely course is Japan will continue to purchase F-35's into the coming decade. While, joining with a future 6th Generation Program in another decade or so. Which, likely would be the F-X (USAF) or NGAD (USN) Programs from the US. Of course we are at the very early conceptual stages. So, we have a very long ways to go.....

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 16 May 2018, 13:02
by zero-one
I wouldn't say that. Japan is extremely wealthy, 3rd largest GDP if I remember correctly. Hard to believe that number 5 (U.K) can order 138 B models but number 3 would be lucky to have 40 cheaper A models.

Right now the F-35s are there to replace the F-4Js. But it won't be long before they start looking at their F-15Js and decide to replace them. Question is, will they buy more F-35s or would this F-22/35 hybrid look like something worth while to look at.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 16 May 2018, 20:32
by disconnectedradical
This F-22/35 hybrid won't cut it for 6th gen and PCA will be a lot more capable and longer range than what F-22 can do even with ADVENT. How do you fund a F-22/35 hybrid or even restart just basic F-22 production without taking funds away from PCA? You have 3 options.

1. Put money to restart F-22 production, which will take money away from PCA which will delay it
2. Let foreign partners buy F-22 but then you have to completely redesign avionics and technology to allow for export which means even more money
3. Put in a lot more money so you can somehow do F-22 restart and keep PCA on track

Don't see how any of these are good ideas. F-22 is a great plane today but it's not the plane of tomorrow. nuff said

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 16 May 2018, 23:54
by geforcerfx
zero-one wrote:I wouldn't say that. Japan is extremely wealthy, 3rd largest GDP if I remember correctly. Hard to believe that number 5 (U.K) can order 138 B models but number 3 would be lucky to have 40 cheaper A models.

Right now the F-35s are there to replace the F-4Js. But it won't be long before they start looking at their F-15Js and decide to replace them. Question is, will they buy more F-35s or would this F-22/35 hybrid look like something worth while to look at.


Japan would still have to expand there military budget by 10 billion a year to develop a custom F-22/F-35 hybrid. Both the UK and Japan have similar air forces now and overall similar military budgets, the UK is investing a lot in carriers and smaller surface vessels, they need the F-35's as part of that CV investment. The Japanese navy already has the CV's if they choose (but smaller) and a much larger over all Navy(140 vs 70 commissioned ships) to support on the same budget, with plans to grow just about every part of it. If they want to keep there budget the same then straight F-35s are the only option, if they want to grow that budget by 10-15 billion then a custom fighter becomes a option. At this point there is a lot of opposition from there people in expanding the military budget.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 17 May 2018, 10:40
by Corsair1963
zero-one wrote:I wouldn't say that. Japan is extremely wealthy, 3rd largest GDP if I remember correctly. Hard to believe that number 5 (U.K) can order 138 B models but number 3 would be lucky to have 40 cheaper A models.

Right now the F-35s are there to replace the F-4Js. But it won't be long before they start looking at their F-15Js and decide to replace them. Question is, will they buy more F-35s or would this F-22/35 hybrid look like something worth while to look at.



Japan has openly stated that it will order 100 New Stealth Fighters by the end of 2018. So, clearly that has to be the F-35 as it's the only option. Plus, it's already in production in Japan.


As for the F-15J's half of the fleet is early (MSIP). Which, are not easy to upgrade to F-15J Kai standard. So, may guess is Japan will likely announce that it will order additional F-35's this fall. Which, will replace the aforementioned....

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 04 Jun 2018, 16:09
by p33lmybanana
I think Japan and Australia would like more of a YF-23/f-35 hybrid. Both countries are disappointed with the range of the f-35. If the stealth and radar are great, then they would not need an agile fighter. They would prefer it to be bigger, faster and with much longer legs the j-20. A stealth interceptor.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 04 Jun 2018, 16:39
by SpudmanWP
There is no evidence of that. In fact, the F-35 out-ranges the F-22, ie 740nmi in A2A mode.

In A2G mode, the F-35 out-ranges an F-16 with not only EFTs, but CFTs as well.

While there may be some in the AU/Japan press/gov that is not happy with the F-35, that opinions not shared with the majority.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 04 Jun 2018, 17:03
by botsing
p33lmybanana wrote:Both countries are disappointed with the range of the f-35.

Got some reliable sources for that claim of yours?

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 06 Jun 2018, 20:37
by p33lmybanana
botsing wrote:
p33lmybanana wrote:Both countries are disappointed with the range of the f-35.

Got some reliable sources for that claim of yours?



1 Australia: "Another submission from retired Wing Commander Anthony Wilkinson says that in its capacity as a multirole aircraft, the F-35's bomb load is too small and its range is too short to be effective in the South Asia region."

https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2016/02/aust ... commander/

*** So it is to my understanding that Australia wanted a long range interceptor and strike aircraft to replace the F-111. They bought Super Hornets as a stop gap, and they intend for f-35 to fit that role in the long term. And as great as the f-35 is, it might not be best for that role when considering range and payload.

I have heard conflicting data with regards to f-22 vs f-35 range. If both aircraft have the same armament, which has more range? I understand that the general public is not privy to specifics, however, I read that certain aviation engineers and publications have come close to calculating range based on given variables in the past. Thanks!

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 06 Jun 2018, 20:56
by sprstdlyscottsmn
So, again with the "F-35 as an F-111 replacement" argument. Seriously?

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 06 Jun 2018, 21:10
by zerion
I believe the F-35 carries more fuel than the F-22, single engine is typically more efficient than 2. So you can draw what you want from that, but if you want it from the pilots watch this. Go to the 15 min mark.


Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 06 Jun 2018, 21:21
by SpudmanWP
p33lmybanana wrote:Another submission from retired ....

One person's opinion does not a national policy make.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 07 Jun 2018, 17:19
by p33lmybanana
zerion wrote:I believe the F-35 carries more fuel than the F-22, single engine is typically more efficient than 2. So you can draw what you want from that, but if you want it from the pilots watch this. Go to the 15 min mark.




Thanks for the video. So the pilot states that the f-35 has more range than an f-15C with 2 external tanks. That's impressive. I stand corrected and will take his word for it. lol.

I was previously going by what i thought were reputable publications like popular mechanics, national interest and etc. Why were the numbers I've read so far off from what the pilot said? Were the initial figures released just estimates? I definitely will take the pilots word, just wondering what's the best way to research this stuff in the future.

i use to like the animated gif comparison:

http://graphics.wsj.com/how-the-worlds- ... easure-up/

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 07 Jun 2018, 17:53
by p33lmybanana
zerion wrote:I believe the F-35 carries more fuel than the F-22, single engine is typically more efficient than 2. So you can draw what you want from that, but if you want it from the pilots watch this. Go to the 15 min mark.




Thanks for the video. I will take the pilot's word. He stated that the f-35 has more range than an f-15C with 2 external tanks that he has flown. That's impressive.

So almost every source I've read previously stated that the f-35s range was much shorter than the f-22 and f-15. So the Lockheed Martin website has the f-35A range at 1,360 miles. And the Boeing website has the F-15SE at 2,992 miles (they no longer list the C model). The Air Force website has the f-15C/D models at 3,450 miles. Are these of the jet in a clean configuration? I have no idea how much range 2 external tanks add as well. Does that mean that the pilot is stating that f-35A range is greater than 3,500 miles? Does this sound right? If you guys had to give an estimate, what would you say it is?

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 07 Jun 2018, 18:05
by SpudmanWP
I am not sure what source you are looking at, but the F-35's "combat radius" is much more than the F-22's.

The below shows a non-supercruise F-22 A2G combat radius of under 600nmi while an F-35A in the same config can take twice the bombload (2x2k JDAM) to 669nmi and the same bombload (2x1k JDAM) to ~710nmi.

The same chart also shows the F-35A handily beating the F-15E (w/o CFTs?) & F-117.

Image

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 07 Jun 2018, 22:48
by p33lmybanana
SpudmanWP wrote:I am not sure what source you are looking at, but the F-35's "combat radius" is much more than the F-22's.

The below shows a non-supercruise F-22 A2G combat radius of under 600nmi while an F-35A in the same config can take twice the bombload (2x2k JDAM) to 669nmi and the same bombload (2x1k JDAM) to ~710nmi.

The same chart also shows the F-35A handily beating the F-15E (w/o CFTs?) & F-117.

Image


Hey Spudman, as stated before. I checked the Lockheed Martin Website for the f-35 range, which directs me to f35.com: which lists it's range at (1200nm). And the Boeing website for f-15, which lists it at 2,600nm. And the pilot stated that the f-35 he flew had as much range as the f-15C that he flew with two external tanks. So is Lockheed severely understating the range? I never mentioned the f-22 range, which the Lockheed Martin website lists at (1600nm).

I can't see your image. But are you saying that The Lockheed Martin websites are wrong? It's to my understanding that the actual ranges are classified. Who are the best sources for these type of stats? Where did you get your chart? Are the company websites for clean configurations, and your numbers are different because they are carrying a bomb load for a strike mission? If so, would that change if they were both in A2A configuration?


https://a855196877272cb14560-2a4fa819a6 ... y_2018.pdf

https://www.lockheedmartin.com/en-us/pr ... tions.html

http://www.boeing.com/defense/f-15-eagle/

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 08 Jun 2018, 11:49
by sferrin
SpudmanWP wrote:I am not sure what source you are looking at, but the F-35's "combat radius" is much more than the F-22's.

The below shows a non-supercruise F-22 A2G combat radius of under 600nmi while an F-35A in the same config can take twice the bombload (2x2k JDAM) to 669nmi and the same bombload (2x1k JDAM) to ~710nmi.

The same chart also shows the F-35A handily beating the F-15E (w/o CFTs?) & F-117.

Image



I'm a bit skeptical that a clean F-22 can outrange an F-15E with three 600 gallon tanks and (presumably) CFTs. :shock:

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 08 Jun 2018, 11:55
by madrat
Bombers flying clean versus external loads were a significant range difference.

It makes me wonder what kind of beast F-106A could have been with some modern love in its lifetime.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 08 Jun 2018, 15:50
by sprstdlyscottsmn
sferrin wrote:I'm a bit skeptical that a clean F-22 can outrange an F-15E with three 600 gallon tanks and (presumably) CFTs. :shock:

Look at the small text. The F-22 has an 6% routing factor, meaning take the range you see and increase by 6% for actual flown range (590nm subsonic only to 625nm actual flown). The F-15E has a 30% routing factor (500nm to 650nm actually flown). Stealth enables more direct routes which increases range.

Also, the F-15E carries a lot of gas but is extremely inefficient due to its high weight and small wing. The Takeoff weight for the F-15E in this case is 80,800lb, 33,000 of it fuel (after ground time). This is a max gross weight loading.

With a DI of 100, it will take 3,000lb of fuel to climb to 30,000ft (opt cruise for this heavy bird) and take 84nm to do it.

I will look at a full optimum profile (unrealistic). Opt cruise begins at 30,000ft with a specific range of 0.046nm/lb. 566nm and 11,320lb later the specific range is 0.054nm/lb at 32,000lb. Bombs away.

The F-15E now weighs 62,500lb, 18,800lb of fuel and DI 85. Opt cruise is now 0.059nm/lb at 34,000ft. It takes 200lb of fuel and 8nm to get up there. 10,300lb of fuel back to base with a final specific range of 0.066nm/lb.

Under this plan there is approximately 6,000lb of unused fuel but there was no accounting for turning around, combat, time on station, or profiles other than optimum cruise.

Let's say the whole mission is flown at 30,000ft and 0.9M for a moment. That alone would eat up 4,200 of that 6,000lb unused. Just doing a Full AB 180 turn to exit the combat zone takes another 800lb (and almost 40 seconds if the crew doesn't want to reduce altitude). Mudhens love to gobble up fuel.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 09 Jun 2018, 15:01
by mixelflick
Isn't the true range of the F-22/35 classified though?

I understand we have to go by what's available/public domain, but like I said - aren't the true figures classified??

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 09 Jun 2018, 18:13
by wrightwing
mixelflick wrote:Isn't the true range of the F-22/35 classified though?

I understand we have to go by what's available/public domain, but like I said - aren't the true figures classified??

In short, yes.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 12 Jun 2018, 18:17
by charlielima223
mixelflick wrote:Isn't the true range of the F-22/35 classified though?

I understand we have to go by what's available/public domain, but like I said - aren't the true figures classified??


Flight profile is a huge factor.

time index 7:55


note that the pilot stated that in the F-35 he doesn't have increase the throttle as much to get to desire cruising or tactical speeds. This reminds me of a similar question I posed to an F-22 pilot during the annual open house air show at Nellis AFB. Off memory he stated the same thing. Because the F-22 is more aerodynamically efficient and he doesn't have to increase the power to get to desired speed and altitude he is able to push the F-22 further out than the flight manual says he can.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 13 Jun 2018, 05:56
by Dragon029
p33lmybanana wrote:I was previously going by what i thought were reputable publications like popular mechanics, national interest and etc. Why were the numbers I've read so far off from what the pilot said? Were the initial figures released just estimates? I definitely will take the pilots word, just wondering what's the best way to research this stuff in the future.


Note that the pilot didn't exactly say twice the range; he would do two (vs one) offensive pushes with an F-35A; but an offensive push doesn't mean going all the way back to base and flying back out again; it could be something like flying 200nmi from the base, flying another 300nmi into enemy territory, fighting and returning 300nmi, either to then fly the remaining 200nmi back home (for a total distance of 1000nmi), or doing another strike the same 300nmi in and out and then returning home (for a total distance of 1600nmi).

Anyway, as for specific figures. You'll see some articles and websites claim that the F-35A has a combat radius of 590nmi and a range of 1200nmi. These figures exist because 590nmi is the threshold (minimum) combat radius (with an A2G payload) requirement for the F-35A while 1200nmi is just the combat radius x2 (because you fly 590nmi out to a target, then fly 590nmi back home) and rounded to the nearest hundred nmi. Those are requirements though, not actual performance figures; they've just been used in the past because they were the only 'guaranteed' figures, while these days it's just ignorance or malice that causes people to still use those numbers.

The F-35A's actual demonstrated combat radius (with an A2G payload) is 669nmi according to the FY2018 Selected Acquisition Report (see the F-35 program documents thread), and a presentation made to Israel by Lockheed states that an F-35A's combat radius with an A2A payload is approximately 760nmi.

For 1-way range, doubling the combat radius isn't really accurate either. Combat radius figures include a routing factor (accounting for the need to fly around threats), they nearly always include non-optimal flight for ingress / egress (fast and lower for better effectiveness / survivability but at the cost of more fuel burn), and they can also account for dogfights by assuming things like the pilot will need 3 full 360 deg turns (at maximum sustained turn rate) with full afterburner.

When you see a 'range' figure, it's not uncommon for that to include none of that and instead is just how far a jet can fly under ferry conditions (optimum altitude and airspeed for range, no heavy manoeuvring, no enemies to avoid, no afterburner usage, no weapons to carry around / slow you down). Sometimes a jet's ferry range (max distance a jet can fly with as much internal and external fuel it can carry) is also called its range.

Based on data I've seen, I'd estimate an F-35A's range / current ferry range (they're the same thing as they F-35 isn't currently integrated with any external fuel tanks) is in the ballpark of 1800nmi on just internal fuel.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 13 Jun 2018, 06:10
by Corsair1963
Plus, the F-35's range will only improve with time..........


Pratt & Whitney Announces Growth Option 2.0 for F135 Engine

BROOKLYN, N.Y., June 12, 2018 /PRNewswire/ -- Pratt & Whitney, a division of United Technologies Corp. (NYSE: UTX), today announced a Growth Option 2.0 upgrade for the F135 engine, which powers the fifth generation F-35 Lighting II aircraft, that can provide increased power and thermal management system (PTMS) capacity. The Growth Option 2.0 upgrade can be configured based on customer requirements to offer a range of PTMS improvements, an area which is emerging as a critical enabling capability for future block upgrades to the F-35 aircraft. The near-term iteration of this upgrade can provide a significant improvement in PTMS capacity.

"As the F-35 program moves forward with the Continuous Capability Development and Delivery (C2D2) strategy, we strive to stay in front of propulsion advances needed to enable F-35 modernization," said Matthew Bromberg, president, Pratt & Whitney Military Engines. "We're continuously assessing customer needs and responding with technology insertion options to keep them ahead of evolving threats."

Growth Option 2.0 incorporates the same suite of compressor and turbine technologies offered in the previously announced Growth Option 1.0, and also brings scaled advances in PTMS capacity while maintaining the same fuel burn (5-6 percent) and thrust improvements (6-10 percent) across the F-35 flight envelope. By selecting from Pratt & Whitney's full suite of technologies, F-35 customers can chose the magnitude of PTMS improvements as the mission requires.......


http://newsroom.pw.utc.com/2018-06-12-P ... 135-Engine

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 13 Jun 2018, 07:59
by wrightwing
Dragon029 wrote:
p33lmybanana wrote:I was previously going by what i thought were reputable publications like popular mechanics, national interest and etc. Why were the numbers I've read so far off from what the pilot said? Were the initial figures released just estimates? I definitely will take the pilots word, just wondering what's the best way to research this stuff in the future.


Note that the pilot didn't exactly say twice the range; he would do two (vs one) offensive pushes with an F-35A; but an offensive push doesn't mean going all the way back to base and flying back out again; it could be something like flying 200nmi from the base, flying another 300nmi into enemy territory, fighting and returning 300nmi, either to then fly the remaining 200nmi back home (for a total distance of 1000nmi), or doing another strike the same 300nmi in and out and then returning home (for a total distance of 1600nmi).

Anyway, as for specific figures. You'll see some articles and websites claim that the F-35A has a combat radius of 590nmi and a range of 1200nmi. These figures exist because 590nmi is the threshold (minimum) combat radius (with an A2G payload) requirement for the F-35A while 1200nmi is just the combat radius x2 (because you fly 590nmi out to a target, then fly 590nmi back home) and rounded to the nearest hundred nmi. Those are requirements though, not actual performance figures; they've just been used in the past because they were the only 'guaranteed' figures, while these days it's just ignorance or malice that causes people to still use those numbers.

The F-35A's actual demonstrated combat radius (with an A2G payload) is 669nmi according to the FY2018 Selected Acquisition Report (see the F-35 program documents thread), and a presentation made to Israel by Lockheed states that an F-35A's combat radius with an A2A payload is approximately 760nmi.

For 1-way range, doubling the combat radius isn't really accurate either. Combat radius figures include a routing factor (accounting for the need to fly around threats), they nearly always include non-optimal flight for ingress / egress (fast and lower for better effectiveness / survivability but at the cost of more fuel burn), and they can also account for dogfights by assuming things like the pilot will need 3 full 360 deg turns (at maximum sustained turn rate) with full afterburner.

When you see a 'range' figure, it's not uncommon for that to include none of that and instead is just how far a jet can fly under ferry conditions (optimum altitude and airspeed for range, no heavy manoeuvring, no enemies to avoid, no afterburner usage, no weapons to carry around / slow you down). Sometimes a jet's ferry range (max distance a jet can fly with as much internal and external fuel it can carry) is also called its range.

Based on data I've seen, I'd estimate an F-35A's range / current ferry range (they're the same thing as they F-35 isn't currently integrated with any external fuel tanks) is in the ballpark of 1800nmi on just internal fuel.

Even 1800nm is very conservative, if no routing factors are involved. Based upon pilot anecdotes, the F-35 can fly 900 miles on 5000lbs of fuel at optimized speed/altitudes. That didn't include a payload, so that would certainly have an affect on the numbers. Of course on the next 5000lbs, it could fly even further, due to less weight/drag, and so on.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 13 Jun 2018, 14:01
by mixelflick
charlielima223 wrote:
mixelflick wrote:Isn't the true range of the F-22/35 classified though?

I understand we have to go by what's available/public domain, but like I said - aren't the true figures classified??


Flight profile is a huge factor.

time index 7:55


note that the pilot stated that in the F-35 he doesn't have increase the throttle as much to get to desire cruising or tactical speeds. This reminds me of a similar question I posed to an F-22 pilot during the annual open house air show at Nellis AFB. Off memory he stated the same thing. Because the F-22 is more aerodynamically efficient and he doesn't have to increase the power to get to desired speed and altitude he is able to push the F-22 further out than the flight manual says he can.


That was a great interview. Really puts the F-35's superior range/persistence into perspective vs. legacy platforms..

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 25 Jun 2018, 17:24
by XanderCrews
p33lmybanana wrote:

1 Australia: "Another submission from retired Wing Commander Anthony Wilkinson says that in its capacity as a multirole aircraft, the F-35's bomb load is too small and its range is too short to be effective in the South Asia region."

https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2016/02/aust ... commander/

*** So it is to my understanding that Australia wanted a long range interceptor and strike aircraft to replace the F-111. They bought Super Hornets as a stop gap, and they intend for f-35 to fit that role in the long term. And as great as the f-35 is, it might not be best for that role when considering range and payload.



What Austrailia wanted was clearly spelled out in the AIR6000 submission, which is a literal outline of the requirements.

youre confusing a small cabal of RAAF, industry, and pundits, who never wanted to see the F-111 retired and favored F-22s with "Australia"

At no point did Australia, actually consider the F-22 in any official capacity, and there was never going to be some "super F-111" as so many nutters envisioned

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 14 Jul 2018, 16:26
by maelstorm
Lockheed Martin officially offered F-22/F-35 hybrid plan to the Japanese government on Friday.

The unit cost is estimated at ¥20 billion($178 million).

Boeing and BAE Systems also offered the remodeling plan of the existing fighter like F-15 and Eurofighter but Japanese official said that Lockheed’s plan better meets the demands.

http://www.the-japan-news.com/news/article/0004585084

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 25 Aug 2018, 00:16
by juretrn
Lockheed's proposal of Super Raptor set to cost $54 billion, Japan to get over 50% of the work:
https://asia.nikkei.com/Politics/Lockhe ... ighter-jet

Isn't that almost develop-a-F-35 kind of money?

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 25 Aug 2018, 00:46
by popcorn
juretrn wrote:Lockheed's proposal of Super Raptor set to cost $54 billion, Japan to get over 50% of the work:
https://asia.nikkei.com/Politics/Lockhe ... ighter-jet

Isn't that almost develop-a-F-35 kind of money?

24Billion Yen = $215M at. current rates

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 25 Aug 2018, 08:50
by zero-one
juretrn wrote:Lockheed's proposal of Super Raptor set to cost $54 billion, Japan to get over 50% of the work:
https://asia.nikkei.com/Politics/Lockhe ... ighter-jet

Isn't that almost develop-a-F-35 kind of money?


Not really

The next-generation fighter program is estimated to cost about 6 trillion yen ($54.2 billion), including development, acquisition and maintenance.


So buying and maintenance of the planes are already taken into account.
This could be a partial life cycle cost estimate already.

Still pretty cheap, cause if I remember correctly the ATF program costs $66.7B to develop and acquire the original fleet of F-22s. (adjusted for 2011 prices) The Rafale program wasn't far behind at $62B

Considering that Japan's economy is quite larger than France's and the fact that the US may also partially fund the program if they want to upgrade or augment their existing fleet of F-22s, this doesn't seem so impossible.

Got a hand it to France tho, they really pushed through where most countries would simply scrap the program and call it quits. The door was wide open for them to join the Eurofighter consortium. Lots a pride those French have.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 25 Aug 2018, 09:07
by hythelday
Nikkei Asian Review wrote:To hasten development, Lockheed will send Japan F-22s that have not been deployed by the U.S. Air Force so that it can grasp its performance in advance.


What are they talking about? YF-22?

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 26 Aug 2018, 15:48
by geforcerfx
hythelday wrote:
Nikkei Asian Review wrote:To hasten development, Lockheed will send Japan F-22s that have not been deployed by the U.S. Air Force so that it can grasp its performance in advance.


What are they talking about? YF-22?


DT birds

* Edit : EMD aircraft, I think there was 4, one in museum one crashed.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 27 Aug 2018, 05:57
by Corsair1963
juretrn wrote:Lockheed's proposal of Super Raptor set to cost $54 billion, Japan to get over 50% of the work:
https://asia.nikkei.com/Politics/Lockhe ... ighter-jet

Isn't that almost develop-a-F-35 kind of money?



Just talk and not to be taken seriously. Japan isn't going to build new F-22's........... :doh:

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 27 Aug 2018, 07:06
by element1loop
Yup, more like Japan and maybe Australia look into partnering with the USAF on a medium-range PCA penetrating strike fighter capability as neither Ally can afford a true VLO heavy bomber, but both would like more tactical VLO deep strike reach, and extra internal VLO cruise missile and ASM numbers. Terrific Indo-Pac deter force for the mid-certury period.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 27 Aug 2018, 07:12
by Corsair1963
element1loop wrote:Yup, more like Japan and maybe Australia look into partnering with the USAF on a medium-range PCA penetrating strike fighter capability as neither Ally can afford a true VLO heavy bomber, but both would like more tactical VLO deep strike reach, and extra internal VLO cruise missile and ASM numbers. Terrific Indo-Pac deter force for the mid-certury period.



Yes, this is Japan thinking long term at her options. Japan already has a 5th Generation Fighter and it's called the F-35... :wink:

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 27 Aug 2018, 07:39
by zero-one
Maybe the JSDAF will use her F-35's primarily as strike aircraft.
They badly want an F-22 class fighter a.k.a overkill, best in the world air dominance platform.

Something that will be untouchable while flying at 60,000 feet, Mach 1.8.
Japan has a lot of pride, they don't want to go around flying the second best air superiority fighter like 15 other allies. They want to be on par with the US, they wanted F-15s when the F-15 was king. Now they want the reigning air dominance king.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 27 Aug 2018, 07:44
by Corsair1963
zero-one wrote:Maybe the JSDAF will use her F-35's primarily as strike aircraft.
They badly want an F-22 class fighter a.k.a overkill, best in the world air dominance platform.

Something that will be untouchable while flying at 60,000 feet, Mach 1.8.
Japan has a lot of pride, they don't want to go around flying the second best air superiority fighter like 15 other allies. They want to be on par with the US, they wanted F-15s when the F-15 was king. Now they want the reigning air dominance king.



:doh: :doh: :doh:

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 27 Aug 2018, 08:21
by zero-one
Corsair1963 wrote: :doh: :doh: :doh:


:whistle: :whistle: :whistle:

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 27 Aug 2018, 08:52
by knowan
element1loop wrote:Yup, more like Japan and maybe Australia look into partnering with the USAF on a medium-range PCA penetrating strike fighter capability as neither Ally can afford a true VLO heavy bomber, but both would like more tactical VLO deep strike reach, and extra internal VLO cruise missile and ASM numbers. Terrific Indo-Pac deter force for the mid-certury period.


Revival of the FB-22 concept maybe? The LM proposal to Japan did say something about new wings and increased range.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 27 Aug 2018, 09:16
by Corsair1963
Yes, Japan isn't thinking of a future 5th Generation Fighter. It's thinking long-term....(i.e. 6th Generation Fighter) Which, really means it is looking for a partner or partners.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 27 Aug 2018, 09:17
by Corsair1963
Japan isn't spending "Billions" to build just 38 F-35A's........ :doh:

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 27 Aug 2018, 09:39
by zero-one
Corsair1963 wrote:Japan isn't spending "Billions" to build just 38 F-35A's........ :doh:


Great, cause nobody is saying that.
The F-35 will be their workhorse, taking out surface targets, punching holes in the PLA's A2/AD network and taking out it's fair share of enemy aircraft. But for the JSDAF, this is not enough, they apparently are interested in an A-A platform that is second to none.

The F-35 is great, but we need to get over the "its the best for everything" mentality. It's not an F-22 and the F-22 is better at A-A. Japan knows more about the F-35 than most of us and they know this as well.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 27 Aug 2018, 09:51
by element1loop
I mean the USAF PCA concept of a medium-range deep-penetrating VLO jet that destroys an enemy's IADS, and its air-battle capabilities over their defended territory, and can maintain a sustained presence there while it does it.

Officials involved in the effort have described Penetrating Counter Air as a survivable aircraft that may have design elements similar to a bomber in order to give it a longer range.


https://www.defensenews.com/digital-sho ... r-designs/

VLO regional-range deep-strike with a highly tactically adaptable heavy fighter-bomber. Something the F-22A isn't and the F-35A doesn't have the combination of very long-legs and a much larger internal weapon load.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 27 Aug 2018, 13:13
by hornetfinn
zero-one wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:Japan isn't spending "Billions" to build just 38 F-35A's........ :doh:


Great, cause nobody is saying that.
The F-35 will be their workhorse, taking out surface targets, punching holes in the PLA's A2/AD network and taking out it's fair share of enemy aircraft. But for the JSDAF, this is not enough, they apparently are interested in an A-A platform that is second to none.

The F-35 is great, but we need to get over the "its the best for everything" mentality. It's not an F-22 and the F-22 is better at A-A. Japan knows more about the F-35 than most of us and they know this as well.


IMO, F-35 might not be best for everything, but it's likely best bang for the yen. Japan has rather small defece budget and buying F-35 and F-22 derivative would be very expensive and would reduce numbers of both significantly. It would be very expensive to develop F-22 derivative that would suit Japan in the first place. Then it would be costly aircraft to manufacture and operate. It would need own support and maintenance infrastructure and personnel. I think pure F-35 force would be more effective given the budget even though F-22 might have big advantages. IMO, Japan just doesn't have large enough budget to go for two types at the moment. Hell, even USAF is seriously reducing different types in inventory because of this.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 27 Aug 2018, 15:39
by zero-one
hornetfinn wrote:IMO, F-35 might not be best for everything, but it's likely best bang for the yen. Japan has rather small defece budget and buying F-35 and F-22 derivative would be very expensive and would reduce numbers of both significantly. It would be very expensive to develop F-22 derivative that would suit Japan in the first place. Then it would be costly aircraft to manufacture and operate. It would need own support and maintenance infrastructure and personnel. I think pure F-35 force would be more effective given the budget even though F-22 might have big advantages. IMO, Japan just doesn't have large enough budget to go for two types at the moment. Hell, even USAF is seriously reducing different types in inventory because of this.


This actually makes sense.
But I think the JSDAF are not trying to buy as many F-35s as possible
They already have an idea of how many they want to buy from now to 2040+ maybe. Kinda like how the USAF plans to buy 1763 from now to 2037 IIRC.

And by their estimates, they have the economic power to launch another 5th gen program.
This is Japan we're talking here, 3rd biggest economy, richer than any European country. Yes they have more debt, but so does the US. And they don't have their own fighter program.

They are clearly interested in a Raptor class platform.
Can they afford it?
Thats what we're trying to find out.
But lets not argue that the F-35 is good enough for all their wants.
It may be good enough for all their needs, but thats not enough.
They want a Raptor, plain and simple. The F-35 is not a Raptor. It comes close, but its not.

Now they're lobbying, if they can afford it, they'll push through

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 27 Aug 2018, 17:58
by XanderCrews
zero-one wrote:
hornetfinn wrote:IMO, F-35 might not be best for everything, but it's likely best bang for the yen. Japan has rather small defece budget and buying F-35 and F-22 derivative would be very expensive and would reduce numbers of both significantly. It would be very expensive to develop F-22 derivative that would suit Japan in the first place. Then it would be costly aircraft to manufacture and operate. It would need own support and maintenance infrastructure and personnel. I think pure F-35 force would be more effective given the budget even though F-22 might have big advantages. IMO, Japan just doesn't have large enough budget to go for two types at the moment. Hell, even USAF is seriously reducing different types in inventory because of this.


This actually makes sense.
But I think the JSDAF are not trying to buy as many F-35s as possible
They already have an idea of how many they want to buy from now to 2040+ maybe. Kinda like how the USAF plans to buy 1763 from now to 2037 IIRC.

And by their estimates, they have the economic power to launch another 5th gen program.
This is Japan we're talking here, 3rd biggest economy, richer than any European country. Yes they have more debt, but so does the US. And they don't have their own fighter program.

They are clearly interested in a Raptor class platform.
Can they afford it?
Thats what we're trying to find out.
But lets not argue that the F-35 is good enough for all their wants.
It may be good enough for all their needs, but thats not enough.
They want a Raptor, plain and simple. The F-35 is not a Raptor. It comes close, but its not.

Now they're lobbying, if they can afford it, they'll push through


This wont be a Raptor either though. That's a bit of an important note.

When all is said and done it may not be even much better than an F-35. It woudnt be the first military program that goes from "wonder weapon" to "wonder why"

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 27 Aug 2018, 18:15
by XanderCrews
zero-one wrote:Maybe the JSDAF will use her F-35's primarily as strike aircraft.
They badly want an F-22 class fighter a.k.a overkill, best in the world air dominance platform.

Something that will be untouchable while flying at 60,000 feet, Mach 1.8.
Japan has a lot of pride, they don't want to go around flying the second best air superiority fighter like 15 other allies. They want to be on par with the US, they wanted F-15s when the F-15 was king. Now they want the reigning air dominance king.



This is absurd.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 27 Aug 2018, 19:30
by sferrin
XanderCrews wrote:When all is said and done it may not be even much better than an F-35. It woudnt be the first military program that goes from "wonder weapon" to "wonder why"


*cough* F-2.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 27 Aug 2018, 23:20
by marsavian
The deal with Japan is distance to China and the disputed islands, it wants a long range air superiority platform to confront J-20s far from its shores. The F-22 with 2 tanks surpasses the stock F-35 in combat radius and no doubt they will plumb the other two pylons so it can carry 4 tanks and have a combat radius over 1000nm. This is not taking into account its greater radar range and kinematic performance making it a more effective interceptor. The reasoning behind this aircraft is the same as that behind the PCA, performance at long fighter range for the Pacific environment which is why it probably will happen, Japan probably views it as essential to safeguard its extended sovereignty.

Image

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 28 Aug 2018, 00:56
by element1loop
If it happened (I have my doubts), I'm fairly confident they would not be at all interested in bags and pylons under VLO wings designed for high-altitude fast long-range cruise. Think conformal tanks or else a fuselage stretch, for lower drag and VLO. And if you're going to do that, then you may as well make the bays bigger and give it F-35A-like sensors, comms and max-adaptive tactical and role flexibility.

Then you're looking at something very similar to PCA--and that will not escape anyone's notice or logic in their further considerations.

Your point about Pacific geography and its scale is entirely correct. F-35A and F-22A still fall well short on the typical tactical strike ranges involved for an Indo-Pac archipelagic conflict. Significant war stocks of theatre-range precision BM strike upon fixed targets means extra tactical range is desirable, and will be becoming more important from here. The reply to much longer cruise distance needs is to have a much faster and superior-efficiency high-altitude cruise (something which is not as unavoidable in a European theatre conflict and smaller more compact countries/territories--and the "need for speed" is almost entirely for cruising--i.e. not merely for a BVR kinematic advantage). So a large PCA with its modern variable mode efficient cruise propulsion will be ideal for the Indo-Pac regional range problem (and the J20 design is clearly aspiring to be that). I think that's what everyone who shares this problem will conclude, and will seek to invest accordingly, for the middle-2030s forwards, with that sort of range capability and F-35-like extreme tactical adaptability in mind.

So I think PCA is a no brainer for USAF from here, and for US's Pacific Allies--a 'need to have' platform.

2c

I suspect that's what Japan is expected to conclude from an evaluation of its options.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 28 Aug 2018, 01:03
by popcorn
Maybe just buy new-build F-35s with AETP engine and consider swapping out F135 in their fleet at some future date. The affordable and prag atic solution in terms of capital outay and ongoing sustainment of a common fleet

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 28 Aug 2018, 01:32
by element1loop
popcorn wrote:Maybe just buy new-build F-35s with AETP engine and consider swapping out F135 in their fleet at some future date. The affordable and pragmatic solution in terms of capital outay and ongoing sustainment of a common fleet


As I understand it an AETP design won't fit in the F-35--but if it did, conformal tanks may provide the needed legs.

The problem then is achieving a stable envelope region with genuinely high-altitude fast long-range cruise. In that respect the F-35C's large wing would certainly be more stable in thinner air (plus adds more fuel).

So the question then is, do you have enough internal weapons with an F-35?

The answer for the F-35 is to buy more of them and operate more in aggressive deep-striking.

Then the question is, will F-35 meet PCA-like requirements for survivable loiter at long range over a defended heartland in say, 2055?

There's a few ifs there, but maybe it can do most of it--enough to work with it, tactically, anyway.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 28 Aug 2018, 01:57
by popcorn
A key design requirement of the adaptive engine designs from GE and P&W is compatibility with the.F-35 engine bay.

We can see the move toward new.generations of weapons designed for the F-35 internal.weapons bay eg. JSM, SACM, AARGM-ER, and this trend will.only accelerate so I think war planners will have lots of choices.down the road.

With 5G a/c, SA has clearly superseded kinematics as the decisive must-have advantage. A networked battlespace extending over much greater distances affords the precious luxury of longer response times to threats so absolute interception speed becomes even less critical. Couple this with longer-range multimode AAMs that will provide all the kinematic performance to deal with threats.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 28 Aug 2018, 02:21
by element1loop
I tend to agree with that, as long as the relative SA and systems advantage can be maintained.

The other big advantage here is you still have an extremely small VLO jet, which can then operate 20km above sea level, and as you go upward the tops of all the imaginary projected sensor footprint "bubbles" rapidly shrink in radius, at your altitude, and it becomes much more difficult to detect, track or engage with a useful pk. Providing a less obstructed path to targets, or to nav. And a good insurance policy against newer detection and tracking tech evolution.

It also sets the propulsion bar much higher for those airforces forced to use heavy-twins with dodgy self-FODing engines, who'd like to do something about it.

However, the need for speed needs some re-emphasis here (it seems to be getting lost in your last reply). With very long distances comes very long flight hours. A single-pilot regional-range deep-strike pilot needs that flight time to be made several hours shorter. So this has to be a serious consideration in high-altitude high-speed cruise efficiency, and long flight pilot comfort. Else strike tempo will not be maintained. Sustained high-speed will need to be a major feature of a suitable jet so must be a major focus of the development of any such variant.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 28 Aug 2018, 06:49
by Corsair1963
zero-one wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:Japan isn't spending "Billions" to build just 38 F-35A's........ :doh:


Great, cause nobody is saying that.
The F-35 will be their workhorse, taking out surface targets, punching holes in the PLA's A2/AD network and taking out it's fair share of enemy aircraft. But for the JSDAF, this is not enough, they apparently are interested in an A-A platform that is second to none.

The F-35 is great, but we need to get over the "its the best for everything" mentality. It's not an F-22 and the F-22 is better at A-A. Japan knows more about the F-35 than most of us and they know this as well.



WILD SPECULATION.....The F-35 is more than capable of performing the "Air Superiority Role" for Japan against all comers! As a matter of fact the F-35's advantages in Stealth and Sensor Fusion. Give the Lightning many advantages over even the Raptor including some in the "Air to Air Role". So, spare us that it's "not enough"???
:doh:

To make it clear Japan is not building the F-3. Nor, is it buying any version of the F-22. What it is doing is planning for post 2030-40. Which, likely will include joining with a partner or partners to jointly develop a future 6th Generation Fighter.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 28 Aug 2018, 06:57
by Corsair1963
marsavian wrote:The deal with Japan is distance to China and the disputed islands, it wants a long range air superiority platform to confront J-20s far from its shores. The F-22 with 2 tanks surpasses the stock F-35 in combat radius and no doubt they will plumb the other two pylons so it can carry 4 tanks and have a combat radius over 1000nm. This is not taking into account its greater radar range and kinematic performance making it a more effective interceptor. The reasoning behind this aircraft is the same as that behind the PCA, performance at long fighter range for the Pacific environment which is why it probably will happen, Japan probably views it as essential to safeguard its extended sovereignty.

Image



Sorry, according to your own graph the F-22 doesn't exceed the range of the F-35. Unless it carries external fuel tanks. Which, would take away its main advantage of stealth. Regardless, I can tell you the F-22 in "never" going to return to production.....Which, has been explained over and over again on this very forum.
:roll:

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 28 Aug 2018, 07:11
by Corsair1963
popcorn wrote:A key design requirement of the adaptive engine designs from GE and P&W is compatibility with the.F-35 engine bay.

We can see the move toward new.generations of weapons designed for the F-35 internal.weapons bay eg. JSM, SACM, AARGM-ER, and this trend will.only accelerate so I think war planners will have lots of choices.down the road.

With 5G a/c, SA has clearly superseded kinematics as the decisive must-have advantage. A networked battlespace extending over much greater distances affords the precious luxury of longer response times to threats so absolute interception speed becomes even less critical. Couple this with longer-range multimode AAMs that will provide all the kinematic performance to deal with threats.



Yes, the F-35 is slanted to get continuing upgrades as the aircraft matures. As a matter of fact it will receive the lion share of the funding. Which, will come from the US and a number of it's customers. This will not be the case with the F-22 or any existing type....(F-15, F-16, F/A-18, etc.)

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 28 Aug 2018, 07:15
by Corsair1963
:lmao:
zero-one wrote:
hornetfinn wrote:IMO, F-35 might not be best for everything, but it's likely best bang for the yen. Japan has rather small defece budget and buying F-35 and F-22 derivative would be very expensive and would reduce numbers of both significantly. It would be very expensive to develop F-22 derivative that would suit Japan in the first place. Then it would be costly aircraft to manufacture and operate. It would need own support and maintenance infrastructure and personnel. I think pure F-35 force would be more effective given the budget even though F-22 might have big advantages. IMO, Japan just doesn't have large enough budget to go for two types at the moment. Hell, even USAF is seriously reducing different types in inventory because of this.


This actually makes sense.
But I think the JSDAF are not trying to buy as many F-35s as possible
They already have an idea of how many they want to buy from now to 2040+ maybe. Kinda like how the USAF plans to buy 1763 from now to 2037 IIRC.

And by their estimates, they have the economic power to launch another 5th gen program.
This is Japan we're talking here, 3rd biggest economy, richer than any European country. Yes they have more debt, but so does the US. And they don't have their own fighter program.

They are clearly interested in a Raptor class platform.
Can they afford it?
Thats what we're trying to find out.
But lets not argue that the F-35 is good enough for all their wants.
It may be good enough for all their needs, but thats not enough.
They want a Raptor, plain and simple. The F-35 is not a Raptor. It comes close, but its not.

Now they're lobbying, if they can afford it, they'll push through



:lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 28 Aug 2018, 08:25
by zero-one
Corsair1963 wrote:the F-35's advantages in Stealth and Sensor Fusion Give the Lightning many advantages over even the Raptor including some in the "Air to Air Role".


Publicly available RCS figures put the Raptor's RCS lower than the F-35's



Granted that these are not accurate, there is nothing out there to suggest that the F-35 has better stealth
the closest that we get from official sources is from Gen. Mike Hostage
https://breakingdefense.com/2014/06/gen ... -starts/3/
“The F-35 doesn’t have the altitude, doesn’t have the speed [of the F-22], but it can beat the F-22 in stealth.” But stealth — the ability to elude or greatly complicate an enemy’s ability to find and destroy an aircraft using a combination of design, tactics and technology — is not a magic pill, Hostage reminds us.


in the same breath he says

The problem is, with the lack of F-22s, I’m going to have to use F-35s in the air superiority role in the early phases as well.....“Because it can’t turn and run away, it’s got to have support from other F-35s. So I’m going to need eight F-35s to go after a target that I might only need two Raptors to go after.


This from Gen. Hostage who knows more about these 2 planes that we can ever hope. So all this talk about the F-35 being better than the F-22 in A-A has to stop. If it was, the USAF would label it as their premier A-A platform and not the F-22.

It's the second best A-A platform, wildly better than anything else EXCEPT the Raptor.

Corsair1963 wrote:To make it clear Japan is not building the F-3. Nor, is it buying any version of the F-22. What it is doing is planning for post 2030-40. Which, likely will include joining with a partner or partners to jointly develop a future 6th Generation Fighter.


This is simply your personal interpretation of what's happening. And who knows, maybe you're right,
but unless you have access to the JSDAF's top brass board meetings, you can't confirm

Maybe this Hybrid F-22/35 will be Japan's next gen fighter. They can call it 6th gen, we can call it 5.5 gen, heck I'll call it an X-wing.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 28 Aug 2018, 09:21
by Corsair1963
zero-one wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:the F-35's advantages in Stealth and Sensor Fusion Give the Lightning many advantages over even the Raptor including some in the "Air to Air Role".


Publicly available RCS figures put the Raptor's RCS lower than the F-35's



Granted that these are not accurate, there is nothing out there to suggest that the F-35 has better stealth
the closest that we get from official sources is from Gen. Mike Hostage
https://breakingdefense.com/2014/06/gen ... -starts/3/
“The F-35 doesn’t have the altitude, doesn’t have the speed [of the F-22], but it can beat the F-22 in stealth.” But stealth — the ability to elude or greatly complicate an enemy’s ability to find and destroy an aircraft using a combination of design, tactics and technology — is not a magic pill, Hostage reminds us.


in the same breath he says

The problem is, with the lack of F-22s, I’m going to have to use F-35s in the air superiority role in the early phases as well.....“Because it can’t turn and run away, it’s got to have support from other F-35s. So I’m going to need eight F-35s to go after a target that I might only need two Raptors to go after.


This from Gen. Hostage who knows more about these 2 planes that we can ever hope. So all this talk about the F-35 being better than the F-22 in A-A has to stop. If it was, the USAF would label it as their premier A-A platform and not the F-22.

It's the second best A-A platform, wildly better than anything else EXCEPT the Raptor.

Corsair1963 wrote:To make it clear Japan is not building the F-3. Nor, is it buying any version of the F-22. What it is doing is planning for post 2030-40. Which, likely will include joining with a partner or partners to jointly develop a future 6th Generation Fighter.


This is simply your personal interpretation of what's happening. And who knows, maybe you're right,
but unless you have access to the JSDAF's top brass board meetings, you can't confirm

Maybe this Hybrid F-22/35 will be Japan's next gen fighter. They can call it 6th gen, we can call it 5.5 gen, heck I'll call it an X-wing.



Go waste someone else's time..........

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 28 Aug 2018, 09:29
by zero-one
Corsair1963 wrote:
Go waste someone else's time..........


Dug yourself into a hole you can't get out of???

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 28 Aug 2018, 09:31
by Corsair1963
zero-one wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:
Go waste someone else's time..........


Dug yourself into a hole you can't get out of???


No just annoyed that you would ask such dumb questions. I suggest you go back an read an number of other posts on the subject of Stealth (RCS) between the F-22 and F-35.....
:doh:

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 28 Aug 2018, 09:41
by zero-one
Corsair1963 wrote:No just annoyed that you would ask such dumb questions. I suggest you go back an read an number of other posts on the subject of Stealth (RCS) between the F-22 and F-35.....
:doh:


With respect to all our knowledgeable resident members here, I believe General Hostage's statements hold more water.

he made it clear, even if the F-35 "can" beat the F-22 in stealth (operating word is "can" not "will" ) he concedes that the F-22 is still the better A-A platform.

8 F-35s to match 2 F-22s.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 28 Aug 2018, 09:47
by Corsair1963
zero-one wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:No just annoyed that you would ask such dumb questions. I suggest you go back an read an number of other posts on the subject of Stealth (RCS) between the F-22 and F-35.....
:doh:


With respect to all our knowledgeable resident members here, I believe General Hostage's statements hold more water.

he made it clear, even if the F-35 "can" beat the F-22 in stealth (operating word is "can" not "will" ) he concedes that the F-22 is still the better A-A platform.

8 F-35s to match 2 F-22s.



Very old quote....Yet, he also said the F-35 was stealthier than the F-22. So, you also agree with that??? :wink:

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 28 Aug 2018, 10:15
by zero-one
Corsair1963 wrote:
Very old quote....Yet, he also said the F-35 was stealthier than the F-22. So, you also agree with that??? :wink:


Old doesn't mean untrue.
he said it can beat the F-22 in Stealth.

We can guess why.
The F-35 can rely less on active sensors which give out emissions making it a tad bit stealthier in the EM spectrum.
It still won't have the speed or altitude of the Raptor.
Theres a certain level on invulnerability when you are a flying metal marble at 60,000 feet, cruising at Mach 1.8
No amount of Sensor fusion can give you that

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 28 Aug 2018, 10:37
by Corsair1963
zero-one wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:
Very old quote....Yet, he also said the F-35 was stealthier than the F-22. So, you also agree with that??? :wink:


Old doesn't mean untrue.
he said it can beat the F-22 in Stealth.

We can guess why.
The F-35 can rely less on active sensors which give out emissions making it a tad bit stealthier in the EM spectrum.
It still won't have the speed or altitude of the Raptor.
Theres a certain level on invulnerability when you are a flying metal marble at 60,000 feet, cruising at Mach 1.8
No amount of Sensor fusion can give you that



High Speed greatly increases your infrared signature significantly. Nonetheless, at this stage we really know little on how the F-22 and F-35 would do against each other. Yet, the facts still support the F-35 has advantages in both Stealth and Sensor Fusion. Which, would be a considerable value in the "real world".....

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 28 Aug 2018, 10:49
by marsavian
Corsair1963 wrote:
marsavian wrote:The deal with Japan is distance to China and the disputed islands, it wants a long range air superiority platform to confront J-20s far from its shores. The F-22 with 2 tanks surpasses the stock F-35 in combat radius and no doubt they will plumb the other two pylons so it can carry 4 tanks and have a combat radius over 1000nm. This is not taking into account its greater radar range and kinematic performance making it a more effective interceptor. The reasoning behind this aircraft is the same as that behind the PCA, performance at long fighter range for the Pacific environment which is why it probably will happen, Japan probably views it as essential to safeguard its extended sovereignty.

Image



Sorry, according to your own graph the F-22 doesn't exceed the range of the F-35. Unless it carries external fuel tanks. Which, would take away its main advantage of stealth. Regardless, I can tell you the F-22 in "never" going to return to production.....Which, has been explained over and over again on this very forum.
:roll:


You didn't properly read what I wrote,

"The F-22 with 2 TANKS surpasses the STOCK F-35 in combat radius"

The other two heavy F-22 pylons are also geared to carry fuel tanks so even if F-35 eventually got two tanks it would still be behind in combat radius. The other deal with the F-22 tanks is that their pylons are jettisonable too so once jettisoned the F-22 is in stock stealth profile. The purposes of the tanks is to get the F-22 to the combat arena, not to fight with.

The F-22 is never going to be put into production again in the US ? Sure, but we are talking about production in Japan so expect a F-22B with DAS with four tank capability to be built there and probably exported too in time. This is as much about getting Japanese aircraft technology state of the art as it is the actual military requirement.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 28 Aug 2018, 10:58
by marsavian
LMT are also now saying the F-35 is stealthier now.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... -u-432983/

AFTER THE RAPTOR

On a radar map, a 747 would appear the size of a hot air balloon and an F-16 would look like a beach ball. Drill down to legacy stealth aircraft and Lockheed’s F-117 Nighthawk would show up as a golf ball while an F-22 Raptor might appear as a pea. With the F-35, Lockheed is getting down to pebble size, according to Robert Wallace, senior manager for F-35 flight operations.


Wallace, a former chief of low-observability for the US Air Force’s B-2 bomber, says the F-35 has leveraged LO qualities from the bomber – but he could not elaborate on specifics.

Pilots will see a more advanced low-observable signature on the F-35 versus the F-22, but it’s the maintainers who see the greatest leap in durability.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 28 Aug 2018, 11:17
by disconnectedradical
zero-one wrote:Maybe the JSDAF will use her F-35's primarily as strike aircraft.
They badly want an F-22 class fighter a.k.a overkill, best in the world air dominance platform.

Something that will be untouchable while flying at 60,000 feet, Mach 1.8.
Japan has a lot of pride, they don't want to go around flying the second best air superiority fighter like 15 other allies. They want to be on par with the US, they wanted F-15s when the F-15 was king. Now they want the reigning air dominance king.


These reasons you gave are ridiculous. Pride?? Is dick measuring contest now a part of Japan's defense strategy? No offense but this sounds like pure F-22 fanboying. What makes you think of these reasons for Japan wanting F-22 or not?

Also Japan wasn't the first country outside US to get F-15, it's Israel.

Also what part of Japan defense strategy call for a OCA aircraft like F-22? Besides Japan care more about loiter and the article mention new wings for more fuel, which will certainly reduce supersonic performance.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 28 Aug 2018, 11:22
by zero-one
Corsair1963 wrote:
High Speed greatly increases your infrared signature significantly. Nonetheless, at this stage we really know little on how the F-22 and F-35 would do against each other.

IR sensors are generally short range, and if you're a 4th gen that somehow manages to detect the Raptor which is flying at twice the altitude as you, good luck shooting a missile upwards. Is it impossible? no, But I bet the Pk of that missile will be somewhere in the low 20 - 30% Point is thats gona be tough.

Corsair1963 wrote:Yet, the facts still support the F-35 has advantages in both Stealth and Sensor Fusion. Which, would be a considerable value in the "real world".....


Real world? we go back to General Hostage's assessment on this one, besides he knows exactly what the real world capabilities of both are.

And lets not act like the F-35 has better stealth in orders of magnitude better than the F-22. Or sensors and sensor fusion a generation ahead of the Raptor. The F-22 still has the bigger more powerful radar, their Stealth is generally accepted as within the same ball park.

But the F-22's Kinematic advantages are considerably better in some areas. Yes their subsonic performance (a.k.a. dogfighting) is within the same ballpark, but the F-22s ability to supercruise at high mach numbers and extreme high altitude persistence is something the F-35 really can't match.

My point is, in an air to air mission, the perceived advantages of the F-35 over the F-22 are quite moderate, the advantages of the Raptor to the F-35 on the other hand are quite considerable. Strictly in an A-A scenario.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 28 Aug 2018, 11:54
by hornetfinn
zero-one wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:the F-35's advantages in Stealth and Sensor Fusion Give the Lightning many advantages over even the Raptor including some in the "Air to Air Role".


Publicly available RCS figures put the Raptor's RCS lower than the F-35's




Those figures seem to come from very, very old article in AWST. Actually those figures are from previous millennium as that article was from 1999, meaning almost 20 years old figures. I doubt those figures are anywhere near correct values as F-35 was barely on drawing board. Those figures are even wrong for the physical objects they refer to (metal marble and metal golf ball).

zero-one wrote:Granted that these are not accurate, there is nothing out there to suggest that the F-35 has better stealth
the closest that we get from official sources is from Gen. Mike Hostage
https://breakingdefense.com/2014/06/gen ... -starts/3/
“The F-35 doesn’t have the altitude, doesn’t have the speed [of the F-22], but it can beat the F-22 in stealth.” But stealth — the ability to elude or greatly complicate an enemy’s ability to find and destroy an aircraft using a combination of design, tactics and technology — is not a magic pill, Hostage reminds us.


in the same breath he says

The problem is, with the lack of F-22s, I’m going to have to use F-35s in the air superiority role in the early phases as well.....“Because it can’t turn and run away, it’s got to have support from other F-35s. So I’m going to need eight F-35s to go after a target that I might only need two Raptors to go after.


This from Gen. Hostage who knows more about these 2 planes that we can ever hope. So all this talk about the F-35 being better than the F-22 in A-A has to stop. If it was, the USAF would label it as their premier A-A platform and not the F-22.

It's the second best A-A platform, wildly better than anything else EXCEPT the Raptor.


Strange as Gen Hostage clearly refers to "site" in that interview meaning a ground target. He also says that F-35 has much smaller cross section than F-22. So he seems to consede that F-35 has lower RCS.

About stealth in that interview:
The F-35′s cross section is much smaller than the F-22′s, but that does not mean, Hostage concedes, that the F-35 is necessarily superior to the F-22 when we go to war.


Because it can’t turn and run away, it’s got to have support from other F-35s. So I’m going to need eight F-35s to go after a target that I might only need two Raptors to go after. But the F-35s can be equally or more effective against that site than the Raptor can because of the synergistic effects of the platform.


Doesn't seem to be about air-to-air combat at all. It seems like he considers two F-22s being able to attack a ground target using speed and altitude advantages. F-35 would attack it relying more on numbers and co-operative capabilities and tactics. I really doubt it would normally take 8 F-35s to do a job 2 F-22s can do, especially against ground targets.

Here is what F-35 Program Executive Officer Lt. Gen. Christopher C. Bogdan said in here:
http://www.airforcemag.com/MagazineArch ... roach.aspx

Hostage caused a stir in late spring when, in press interviews, he said the F-35 would be stealthier than the F-22, its larger USAF stablemate. Conventional wisdom had pegged the F-22, with its angled, vectored-thrust engines, as a stealthier machine than the F-35. Hostage also said the F-35 would be unbeatable when employed in numbers, which is why the full buy of aircraft is "so critical."

"I would say that General Hostage … is accurate in his statement about the simple stealthiness of the F-35 [with regard] to other airplanes," Bogdan said in the interview. The statement was accurate for radar cross section, as measured in decibels, and range of detectability, he said, and he scoffed at the notion that anyone can tell how stealthy an aircraft is just by looking at it.

The comment about the effectiveness of F-35s together "has less to do with stealthiness and more to do with overall survivability," he said.

"We are going to ask the F-35 to do things that no other airplane—fourth gen or otherwise—is going to be able to do in the future," he stated. For some of those missions, "it would be much better to do it with more than one F-35."

Besides their stealthiness, the F-35s share information and can perform electronic warfare, electronic attack, and cyber missions.

"When you put two F-35s in the battlespace, … they become even more survivable when they do it together," Bogdan asserted. With two or more, "the sum of the parts is greater than the whole," especially when the aircraft are teaming up "from different parts of the airspace, on the same targets. It becomes quite effective."


I'd say Bogdan knows a thing or two about this issue...

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 28 Aug 2018, 12:17
by hornetfinn
zero-one wrote:And lets not act like the F-35 has better stealth in orders of magnitude better than the F-22. Or sensors and sensor fusion a generation ahead of the Raptor. The F-22 still has the bigger more powerful radar, their Stealth is generally accepted as within the same ball park.

But the F-22's Kinematic advantages are considerably better in some areas. Yes their subsonic performance (a.k.a. dogfighting) is within the same ballpark, but the F-22s ability to supercruise at high mach numbers and extreme high altitude persistence is something the F-35 really can't match.

My point is, in an air to air mission, the perceived advantages of the F-35 over the F-22 are quite moderate, the advantages of the Raptor to the F-35 on the other hand are quite considerable. Strictly in an A-A scenario.


Actually sensor fusion is a generation ahead of the Raptor according to the man who actually was involved in designing both systems:
https://www.f35.com/in-depth/detail/eli ... f-the-f-35

With 18 years spent as a representative on the F-22 fusion team, Tom is one of only a handful of people who have intimate knowledge of both the F-35 and F-22 fusion systems.

“Some innovations had to happen mathematically to deal with data the way they were sharing it before the F-22” he says. “By the time the F-22 came along, the computers and technology finally caught up, and we launched the first real 5th Generation fusion on an aircraft.”

That was “Fusion 1.0.” The F-35 takes it one step further.

“The F-35 not only has the ability to proactively collect and analyze data, but it adds the ability to share it amongst the fleet and work as a pack,” he explains. “That’s ‘Fusion 2.0.’”


F-35 has EOTS and EO DAS systems which have capabilties that F-22 does not have at all. That's 7 individual sensors F-22 does not have. AN/AAR-56 is just MLD and nothing more currently, although it could have better capabilties if upgraded.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 28 Aug 2018, 12:34
by madrat
A pea is about a tenth the diameter of a pebble last I checked.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 28 Aug 2018, 12:44
by sferrin
marsavian wrote:The deal with Japan is distance to China and the disputed islands, it wants a long range air superiority platform to confront J-20s far from its shores. The F-22 with 2 tanks surpasses the stock F-35 in combat radius and no doubt they will plumb the other two pylons so it can carry 4 tanks and have a combat radius over 1000nm.


Thought I read somewhere they didn't go with four tanks for structural reasons. (Kinda like them not using the outboard pylons on most model Eagles.) They had an "iron bird" to test the plumbing system for four tanks but they never flew with four in testing.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 28 Aug 2018, 12:51
by sferrin
element1loop wrote:So a large PCA with its modern variable mode efficient cruise propulsion will be ideal for the Indo-Pac regional range problem (and the J20 design is clearly aspiring to be that). I think that's what everyone who shares this problem will conclude, and will seek to invest accordingly, for the middle-2030s forwards, with that sort of range capability and F-35-like extreme tactical adaptability in mind.


Back in the 70s, pre-ATF days, they'd started to lean that direction with the F-15 replacement. There were many concepts for long range supercruisers.

boe1978ssc1500mile-sm.jpg


boe1979heavyinterceptor.JPG


ATF_CL-2016_1.jpg

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 28 Aug 2018, 12:53
by sferrin
popcorn wrote:A key design requirement of the adaptive engine designs from GE and P&W is compatibility with the.F-35 engine bay. .


IIRC there are two sizes being pursued, one for the F-35, and a larger one for the PCA.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 28 Aug 2018, 13:01
by sferrin
zero-one wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:No just annoyed that you would ask such dumb questions. I suggest you go back an read an number of other posts on the subject of Stealth (RCS) between the F-22 and F-35.....
:doh:


With respect to all our knowledgeable resident members here, I believe General Hostage's statements hold more water.

he made it clear, even if the F-35 "can" beat the F-22 in stealth (operating word is "can" not "will" ) he concedes that the F-22 is still the better A-A platform.

8 F-35s to match 2 F-22s.


And let's not forget the USAF offer to give up 500 F-35s if they could buy 100 more Raptors back before they shut down production.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 28 Aug 2018, 13:02
by hornetfinn
madrat wrote:A pea is about a tenth the diameter of a pebble last I checked.


Pebble covers different types of small rocks with diameters between 4 to 64 mm and pea is 5 to 10 mm according to some definitions I could find. Basically both "pebble" and "pea" are far too general terms to use them in anything really.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 28 Aug 2018, 13:45
by zero-one
hornetfinn wrote:
Actually sensor fusion is a generation ahead of the Raptor according to the man who actually was involved in designing both systems:
https://www.f35.com/in-depth/detail/eli ... f-the-f-35



Well then this would suggest that even with slightly better Stealth and a generational leap in sensor fusion the F-22 is still superior to the F-35 in A-A.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 28 Aug 2018, 14:12
by element1loop
sferrin wrote:
Images



Ah, very nice, thank you for taking the time to post those concepts--very interesting. I suppose the difference now is the sensors, comms, off-jet systems, VLO, propulsion and weapons exist now to make that concept work, like someone's worst nightmare.

On reflection the more optimal penetrating deep-strike situation may be a combo of a USAF PCA plus a high-altitude optimised Mach~1.3 supercruising F-35 variant (as already described) with ~2,000nm combat radius, on two refuellings. Add cruise missile range on top of that. My rough calcs indicate that should be possible with the combo of 'C' wings, conformals and a variable-cycle version with best specific fuel consumption range optimised between 60 and 65K ft. Being variable cycle it should still (economically) rip everywhere at lower alts, as well.

Those two penetrating deep-strike types, combined with a copious fleet of tiny VLO air-launched space-based targeting sensors, could tear apart a large power's forces rather quickly, after 2035, before they could detect and kill the continuous stream of 'cheap' disposable VLO LEO SATs.

Meanwhile, the block-upgraded F-35A/B/C mob everything else that they can reach and strike.

Nothing fair about that.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 28 Aug 2018, 14:13
by zero-one
I also noticed that Raptor pilots almost never talk about how they conduct ACM.
teen series pilots have recounted how they conduct ACM countless times.

Even new F-35 pilots have shared how the F-35 conducts ACM in detail.
But with Raptor pilots, its always "I can't get into specifics" or "I can't talk about certain maneuvers"

But if its just like a clean F-16 in the high subsonic regime or F/A-18 on steroids, then why all the secrecy.
something tells me the Raptor's close range maneuverability is worth the top-secret classification.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 28 Aug 2018, 16:02
by f-16adf
Ironically, 2 days ago at Thunder Over Michigan we had 2 F-35's on static. So I went over to both pilots, and asked them a few questions. They were pretty courteous with their responses. Both came from Eagles.

I asked them if the F-35 is like both the Hornet (slow speeds) and Viper (med-high speeds), one pilot said "that is a good way to put it."

Asked how does the F-35 compare to the F-22 BVR: I never received a yes or no answer. However, one pilot said, in a kinda hazy response, that they complement each other. And they are both great.

Asked how does the F-35 compare to the F-22 WVR: Both F-35 pilots conceded that the Raptor is better. And that is the exact same response from the 2 94th FS Raptor pilots a year ago.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 28 Aug 2018, 19:34
by rmr_22
Hello, for a long time I read this forum and I have decided to write.
Sorry for my English, the translators help but they are not perfect ...

To begin with it seems that everyone agrees that geometrically the F-22 wins. Also, when Jeff Babione (chief program F-22) was asked about applying the coatings of the F-35 to the Raptor he said they would reduce the maintenance price and resistance but also said they would not change the RCS.

Another interesting thing is to analyze the exact words of Gen. Mike Hostage and later of Bogdan:

-"but it can beat the F-22 in stealth"

It is very strange that he uses the word "can". It is not a categorical statement, it only expresses possibility.

-"I would say that General Hostage … is accurate in his statement about the simple stealthiness of the F-35 [with regard] to other airplanes,"

"I would say" is another statement not conclusive.
"to other airplanes" Strange but he speaks in the plural, when he has been asked exclusively about the F-22.

We have a problem because "F-22 wins geometrically", "Coatings are just as effective" and "F-35 is more stealthy" are 3 incompatible claims.

In my opinion the first 2 are true, and the "lie" is in the last one. Hostage and Bogdan have skillfully used the language to not make outright statements, and therefore technically they have not lied.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 28 Aug 2018, 20:11
by juretrn
rmr_22 wrote:--snip-

Yes, it's either that, or it's just the fact they are talking about one of the more important technical aspects (read: CLASSIFIED) of both planes, and it's more of a "can't confirm or deny" situation.
Either applies, really. /s

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 28 Aug 2018, 21:00
by XanderCrews
sferrin wrote:
XanderCrews wrote:When all is said and done it may not be even much better than an F-35. It woudnt be the first military program that goes from "wonder weapon" to "wonder why"


*cough* F-2.


yup



zero-one wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:No just annoyed that you would ask such dumb questions. I suggest you go back an read an number of other posts on the subject of Stealth (RCS) between the F-22 and F-35.....
:doh:


With respect to all our knowledgeable resident members here, I believe General Hostage's statements hold more water.

he made it clear, even if the F-35 "can" beat the F-22 in stealth (operating word is "can" not "will" ) he concedes that the F-22 is still the better A-A platform.

8 F-35s to match 2 F-22s.



The General hostage interview has been all over the internet a hundred times. I really wish it was video, because that interview is confusing as hell, and I think they are missing a bunch of context. Hostage tries to promote both aircraft, while not promoting one ahead of the other, while calling them great, while also reminding everyone hes going to need to upgrade them. Ive seen politicians in front of grand juries with more linear narratives.

That Hostage interview creates far more questions than it ever answered, and years later people are still debating it.

marsavian wrote:The F-22 is never going to be put into production again in the US ? Sure, but we are talking about production in Japan so expect a F-22B with DAS with four tank capability to be built there and probably exported too in time. This is as much about getting Japanese aircraft technology state of the art as it is the actual military requirement.


I won't hold my breath.


zero-one wrote:
This is simply your personal interpretation of what's happening. And who knows, maybe you're right,
but unless you have access to the JSDAF's top brass board meetings, you can't confirm

Maybe this Hybrid F-22/35 will be Japan's next gen fighter. They can call it 6th gen, we can call it 5.5 gen, heck I'll call it an X-wing.



Your speculation is just as speculative and by your own standard of proof to boot.


Once again people need to separate the F-22, and what is speculation about what a future Japanese F-22 based aircraft MIGHT look like. (and even then, how do we know based on the requirements, it doesn't pop out looking like a YF-23 or a PAKFA, or something else entirely? who says it has to be an F-22 retread?)

Image

Nothing about the F-22 matters in this debate technically. Its not going to be a carbon copy. Its going to deviate if it even gets built at all. We are talking about some MASSIVE expenditures to create even a close copy F-22, (with F-35 avionics to boot) And all to produce how many aircraft exactly? We are talking gobs and gobs of money, and over a decade of political commitment to produce an airplane better than the F-35. Thats no small feat, not because the F-35 is hyper uber amazing, but just because surpassing its performance will be extremely expensive.

Law Number XV: The last 10 percent of performance generates one-third of the cost and two-thirds of the problems.

Even creating an airplane 10 percent better than the F-35 is going to be costly, and trying to get it to F-22 levels, especially a level where advocates in this thread think they are so close as to be interchangeable is damn near impossible.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 28 Aug 2018, 21:36
by vilters
Guys, forget it.
The F-22 production is over and done with.

Next big thing in airframe design and building is 3D printing pretty large parts like a wing at a time.

Only remaining issue are the NDI inspections and quality assurance before delivery.

Imagine what you could do with all fuel and hydr plumbing integrated in the bulkheads and skins.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 29 Aug 2018, 03:15
by Corsair1963
Honestly, comparing the F-22A and F-35A. Is like comparing the P-47N and P-51D. As both have their strengths and weaknesses. Yet, in the end they all could beat their major opponents.....


As for Japan and some kind of F-22/F-35 hybrid. That is nothing short of ludicrous. As just putting the F-22 back into production would be unaffordable for Japan. Let alone to develop a new version of the aircraft. (even more expensive) :doh:


This all comes back to what I stated from the start. Which, is Japan will continue to produce the F-35. While, joining with a partner or partners. To develop a future 6th Generation Fighter sometime in the not to distance future. (next decade)

I've seen nothing here that would make me change that opinion....does anybody else???

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 29 Aug 2018, 06:16
by hornetfinn
XanderCrews wrote:The General hostage interview has been all over the internet a hundred times. I really wish it was video, because that interview is confusing as hell, and I think they are missing a bunch of context. Hostage tries to promote both aircraft, while not promoting one ahead of the other, while calling them great, while also reminding everyone hes going to need to upgrade them. Ive seen politicians in front of grand juries with more linear narratives.

That Hostage interview creates far more questions than it ever answered, and years later people are still debating it.


I agree wholeheartedly. I would also love to see a video or at least transcript of that interview. It also seems like the interviewer mixes his opinions and other comments with actual interview comments by General Hostage. I don't think the published interview can really be used for comparing these two jets.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 29 Aug 2018, 07:14
by Corsair1963
hornetfinn wrote:
I agree wholeheartedly. I would also love to see a video or at least transcript of that interview. It also seems like the interviewer mixes his opinions and other comments with actual interview comments by General Hostage. I don't think the published interview can really be used for comparing these two jets.



Original story is very old and much has changed in that time....

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 29 Aug 2018, 09:12
by zero-one
Well look at it this way.
Japan will spend gobbles and gobbles of money no matter what route they take if they want to deter China.
And unlike most countries they can actually do that. (bigger Economy than any European country)

They tried doing it alone with their ATD-X
it didn't look good.
This proposal by Lockheed to make a Raptor/Lightning Hybrid could just be another option on the table.
If it doesn't work out they'll probably try another approach.

Gen. Hostage's interview was pretty straight forward to me. It only becomes confusing when I try not to accept the fact that the F-22 is better than the F-35.

He said the F-35 can beat the F-22 in Stealth, but then again he says that it takes 8 F-35's to match 2 F-22s.
Why?
Well in the first place he said that "Stealth is not everything"

He used the word "site" which could mean he is referring to a ground target, stationary to be exact. Well the F-35 has better targeting systems for ground targets.
But what he could mean is that an F-22 is more invulnerable to both Air and Ground threats and will not need as many escorts or support as an F-35 Strike package.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 29 Aug 2018, 09:23
by hornetfinn
rmr_22 wrote:Hello, for a long time I read this forum and I have decided to write.
Sorry for my English, the translators help but they are not perfect ...


Welcome here, nice post and don't worry about your English as it's definitely good enough! :)

rmr_22 wrote:To begin with it seems that everyone agrees that geometrically the F-22 wins. Also, when Jeff Babione (chief program F-22) was asked about applying the coatings of the F-35 to the Raptor he said they would reduce the maintenance price and resistance but also said they would not change the RCS.


I don't think everyone agrees that geometrically F-22 wins. F-22 is geometrically simpler design from stealth PoV (not otherwise!), but it's really tough to say which one is better for low RCS. F-35 was designed significantly later than F-22 and benefited from knowledge gained from development of F-22 and also better development tools (more powerful computers, better design software). It could then have more complex geometry while having equal or lower RCS. It's also significantly smaller aircraft physically and that would reduce RCS if the designs were otherwise equal. There simply is smaller area reflecting radar signals.

rmr_22 wrote:Another interesting thing is to analyze the exact words of Gen. Mike Hostage and later of Bogdan:

-"but it can beat the F-22 in stealth"

It is very strange that he uses the word "can". It is not a categorical statement, it only expresses possibility.


That is likely because stealth is very complex issue. There are different radar wavelenghts which act differently on different designs. So at some wavelength F-35 might have smaller RCS and in some other it could be F-22.

Then there are endless aspect angles in different target elevation and azimuth angles. RCS will be very different in different aspect angles for both aircraft. There are definitely angles where F-35 will have smaller RCS than F-22 due to smaller size (viewed directly from above or below for example).

Of course then there is other electromagnetic wavelengths like different infra-red bands or visible light band. It's pretty probable that F-35 will have smaller IR signature when both are going at subsonic speeds. It has only one high bypass engine whereas F-22 has two low bypass engines. I'd say that at supersonic speeds supercruising F-22 is going to have significantly lower IR signature than F-35 which needs AB to stay at those speeds.

Stealth also incorporates EM emission control and F-35 might have slight edge here due to later design of avionics systems. Having IRST/FLIR system definitely allows for less EM emissions needed.

rmr_22 wrote:-"I would say that General Hostage … is accurate in his statement about the simple stealthiness of the F-35 [with regard] to other airplanes,"

"I would say" is another statement not conclusive.
"to other airplanes" Strange but he speaks in the plural, when he has been asked exclusively about the F-22.


Maybe he was trying to say that F-35 is stealthier than any other fighter jet, including F-22.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 29 Aug 2018, 10:32
by Corsair1963
zero-one wrote:Well look at it this way.
Japan will spend gobbles and gobbles of money no matter what route they take if they want to deter China.
And unlike most countries they can actually do that. (bigger Economy than any European country)

They tried doing it alone with their ATD-X
it didn't look good.
This proposal by Lockheed to make a Raptor/Lightning Hybrid could just be another option on the table.
If it doesn't work out they'll probably try another approach.

Gen. Hostage's interview was pretty straight forward to me. It only becomes confusing when I try not to accept the fact that the F-22 is better than the F-35.

He said the F-35 can beat the F-22 in Stealth, but then again he says that it takes 8 F-35's to match 2 F-22s.
Why?
Well in the first place he said that "Stealth is not everything"

He used the word "site" which could mean he is referring to a ground target, stationary to be exact. Well the F-35 has better targeting systems for ground targets.
But what he could mean is that an F-22 is more invulnerable to both Air and Ground threats and will not need as many escorts or support as an F-35 Strike package.



Your reading way to much into General Hostage's interview. Which, is both old and outdated.... :?

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 29 Aug 2018, 10:55
by hornetfinn
zero-one wrote:Well look at it this way.
Japan will spend gobbles and gobbles of money no matter what route they take if they want to deter China.
And unlike most countries they can actually do that. (bigger Economy than any European country)


But they are not spending that much money for their military. Their military budget is roughly the same as in France or Germany. They could spend much more, but there is no indication that they will increase their military spending significantly.

zero-one wrote:Gen. Hostage's interview was pretty straight forward to me. It only becomes confusing when I try not to accept the fact that the F-22 is better than the F-35.

He said the F-35 can beat the F-22 in Stealth, but then again he says that it takes 8 F-35's to match 2 F-22s.
Why?
Well in the first place he said that "Stealth is not everything"

He used the word "site" which could mean he is referring to a ground target, stationary to be exact. Well the F-35 has better targeting systems for ground targets.
But what he could mean is that an F-22 is more invulnerable to both Air and Ground threats and will not need as many escorts or support as an F-35 Strike package.


I think it's pretty confusing as I can't tell what General Hostage himself said and what are claims or comments made by the journalist making the interview. It's clear that some comments and claims are made by the journalist and not by Hostage. Some are not clear at all and I suspect many are made by the journalist or possibly taken out of context. Like he also said that "But the F-35s can be equally or more effective against that site than the Raptor can because of the synergistic effects of the platform". How can F-35s be more effective against same site?

Also F-22 probably is better individually at some things like many air-to-air missions or striking some fixed or semi-fixed targets using hit-and-run tactics like Hostage seemed to indicate. But how much better it is and is a force of F-22s more effective than a force of F-35s? Especially when considering costs of building a wothwhile force of F-22 derivatives these days. F-35 is definitely much better multi-role platform and IMO that's what Japan need much more than dedicate air-to-air platform.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 29 Aug 2018, 11:14
by zero-one
Corsair1963 wrote:Your reading way to much into General Hostage's interview. Which, is both old and outdated.... :?


Old doesn't make it invalid. Unless they added a revolutionary new capability to the F-35 since 2014, the statements will hold true.

And its not just Gen. Hostage, pretty much every comparison between the F-22 and F-35 in an air to air scenario resulted in

1. They complement each other
2. They are both dominant

but sometimes we get
3. The F-22 is superior since it was designed specifically for A-A.

This shouldn't be a surprise because that is what it was originally intended to be
https://www.warhistoryonline.com/milita ... ghter.html
Lockheed Martin has said that the F-35 should be second only to the F-22 Raptor while in the air.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 29 Aug 2018, 12:32
by madrat
Japan can be given aid in building a stealth fighter that is superior to J-20 (or Su-57) without giving it a truly F-22A class fighter. If you re-plumb F-22's shell for F135 engines and then build around F-22 subsystems, especially parts we have to maintain regardless of the gee-whiz secret sauce, then it makes F-22A more sustainable. Maybe you even use the export version to support F-22A upgrades in cockpit displays, ejectors, etc. And you might be able to speed up weapon integration that hasn't been done to this point for lack of funds.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 29 Aug 2018, 13:01
by sferrin
vilters wrote:Guys, forget it.
The F-22 production is over and done with.

Next big thing in airframe design and building is 3D printing pretty large parts like a wing at a time.


They have a LONG way to go before we're there. They don't even co-cure large parts like complete wings yet.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 29 Aug 2018, 15:35
by rmr_22
hornetfinn wrote:
Welcome here, nice post and don't worry about your English as it's definitely good enough! :)



Thank you!

One theory that would explain everything is that the difference is that the coatings of the F-22 are effective in X band and weak in UHF / VHF while the coatings of the F-35 are equally effective in all frequencies.

This would explain why in A2A 8 F-35s are needed to equal 2 F-22 since in the X band of the APG-77/81 the Raptor is the first to detect, shoot and kill, while on the other hand, in A2G against low-frequency ground radars F-35 has better RCS.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 29 Aug 2018, 18:14
by johnwill
sferrin wrote:
vilters wrote:Guys, forget it.
The F-22 production is over and done with.

Next big thing in airframe design and building is 3D printing pretty large parts like a wing at a time.


They have a LONG way to go before we're there. They don't even co-cure large parts like complete wings yet.


The JASDF F-2 wing is co-cured. Spars, ribs, and lower skin are co-cured, with upper skin bolted on for access to internal components.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 29 Aug 2018, 18:24
by sferrin
johnwill wrote:
sferrin wrote:
vilters wrote:Guys, forget it.
The F-22 production is over and done with.

Next big thing in airframe design and building is 3D printing pretty large parts like a wing at a time.


They have a LONG way to go before we're there. They don't even co-cure large parts like complete wings yet.


The JASDF F-2 wing is co-cured. Spars, ribs, and lower skin are co-cured, with upper skin bolted on for access to internal components.


I stand corrected. That's actually pretty interesting.

http://www.iccm-central.org/Proceedings ... r-1364.pdf

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 30 Aug 2018, 02:18
by Corsair1963
madrat wrote:Japan can be given aid in building a stealth fighter that is superior to J-20 (or Su-57) without giving it a truly F-22A class fighter. If you re-plumb F-22's shell for F135 engines and then build around F-22 subsystems, especially parts we have to maintain regardless of the gee-whiz secret sauce, then it makes F-22A more sustainable. Maybe you even use the export version to support F-22A upgrades in cockpit displays, ejectors, etc. And you might be able to speed up weapon integration that hasn't been done to this point for lack of funds.



Your dreaming as they will never put the F-22 back into production. Let alone develop a new fighter based on its design... :doh:

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 30 Aug 2018, 02:42
by Corsair1963
zero-one wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:Your reading way to much into General Hostage's interview. Which, is both old and outdated.... :?


Old doesn't make it invalid. Unless they added a revolutionary new capability to the F-35 since 2014, the statements will hold true.

And its not just Gen. Hostage, pretty much every comparison between the F-22 and F-35 in an air to air scenario resulted in

1. They complement each other
2. They are both dominant

but sometimes we get
3. The F-22 is superior since it was designed specifically for A-A.

This shouldn't be a surprise because that is what it was originally intended to be
https://www.warhistoryonline.com/milita ... ghter.html
Lockheed Martin has said that the F-35 should be second only to the F-22 Raptor while in the air.


Honestly, your wasting our time with such sources. Yet, if you can find a source like Lt. Colonel David “Chip” Berke (Ret) or Colonel Paul "MAX" Moga. Which, would supports your case. I would be interested........(Note: The latter two have considerable experience in both the F-22 and F-35.)

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 30 Aug 2018, 07:03
by johnwill


Much appreciate the .pdf posting. I worked on F-2 structural flight test in Japan for a year and a half around '99, but was kept in semi-darkness about many of the details of structural development. The Japanese were personally really great to work with, but somewhat reserved when discussing structural problems with me. No matter, it was a memorable time in my life.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 30 Aug 2018, 21:37
by XanderCrews
Still going on about Hostage and F-22s? :bang: :bang:

madrat wrote:Japan can be given aid in building a stealth fighter that is superior to J-20 (or Su-57) without giving it a truly F-22A class fighter. If you re-plumb F-22's shell for F135 engines and then build around F-22 subsystems, especially parts we have to maintain regardless of the gee-whiz secret sauce, then it makes F-22A more sustainable. Maybe you even use the export version to support F-22A upgrades in cockpit displays, ejectors, etc. And you might be able to speed up weapon integration that hasn't been done to this point for lack of funds.



I think when the bill comes due for that you don't save any money. That was another thing I was told killed the "export" Raptor as much as OBEY. By the time you had replaced all the secret sauce, watered down everything else, it might as well be a new airplane.


My hair brain idea is you get a new center fueslage, everything forward of this bulkhead is F-35A:

Image

Then you stretch the center fuselage a few feet, reduce the cross section aft of the intakes add fuel wherever you don't have small missile bays and then go with Pelican tail or Canards or F-35 layout. And the rear surfaces are BIG. Stop short of thrust vectoring if you care about costs. F135 engine. maintains at least some commonality with F-35 at least. with the engine, sensors, and front section.

Examples from KFX to show what I am angling at.

Image

Image


but again this is all me. i have no idea what japan would do based on budgets and requirements and what they actually have the fortitude to try.

I guess my idea would be similar to the Super Hornet or Gripen NG. A "super F-35" optimized for high altitude air combat while hopefully maintaining more commonality than Legacy to super Hornet did. fuselage made bigger for more fuel. etc

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 31 Aug 2018, 01:01
by beepa
Lockmart wants everyone to have one.

https://www.defenseone.com/business/201 ... ce/150943/

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 31 Aug 2018, 13:06
by sferrin
Corsair1963 wrote:
madrat wrote:Japan can be given aid in building a stealth fighter that is superior to J-20 (or Su-57) without giving it a truly F-22A class fighter. If you re-plumb F-22's shell for F135 engines and then build around F-22 subsystems, especially parts we have to maintain regardless of the gee-whiz secret sauce, then it makes F-22A more sustainable. Maybe you even use the export version to support F-22A upgrades in cockpit displays, ejectors, etc. And you might be able to speed up weapon integration that hasn't been done to this point for lack of funds.



Your dreaming as they will never put the F-22 back into production. Let alone develop a new fighter based on its design... :doh:


Apparently the idea is being pitched to the USAF:

"Lockheed Martin is quietly pitching the U.S. Air Force a new variant of the F-22 Raptor, equipped with the F-35’s more modern mission avionics and some structural changes, Defense One has learned.

It is one of several options being shopped to the U.S. military and allies as Lockheed explores how it might upgrade its combat jets to counter Russian and Chinese threats anticipated by military officials in the coming decade, according to people with direct knowledge of the plan.

“You’re building a hybrid aircraft,” David Deptula, a retired Air Force lieutenant general who is now dean of the Mitchell Institute for Aerospace Studies. “It’s not an F-22. It’s not an F-35. It’s a combination thereof. That can be done much, much more rapidly than introducing a new design.”

The new variant — similar to one Lockheed is pitching to Japan — would incorporate the F-35’s more modern mission system and “other advancements in the stealth coatings and things of that nature,” according to a person familiar with the proposal. "

https://www.defenseone.com/business/201 ... ce/150943/

Main problem is the F119 is out of production IIRC. (No, the F135 would not be an adequate substitute.)

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 31 Aug 2018, 15:15
by mixelflick
Meh..

It's starting to get murky. Meaning such a hybrid SHOULD result in an aircraft superior to the Raptor, but already there are calls for it to be something less. Either build it to be better or don't do it at all IMO.

By the time it's ready the US will be fielding PCA, itself a generation more capable than this "hybrid" Lockheed is pitching..

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 01 Sep 2018, 18:25
by talkitron
If Japan pays for half the R&D costs, it could be a good value if there are clear advantages over a six AMRAAM upgraded F-35.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 01 Sep 2018, 21:07
by krieger22
It can either be something like the F-2, or have a large USAF buy. Congress probably isn't going to agree to allowing something that rolled off a Japanese production line to enter service.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 03 Sep 2018, 06:13
by Corsair1963
sferrin wrote:
Apparently the idea is being pitched to the USAF:

"Lockheed Martin is quietly pitching the U.S. Air Force a new variant of the F-22 Raptor, equipped with the F-35’s more modern mission avionics and some structural changes, Defense One has learned.

It is one of several options being shopped to the U.S. military and allies as Lockheed explores how it might upgrade its combat jets to counter Russian and Chinese threats anticipated by military officials in the coming decade, according to people with direct knowledge of the plan.

“You’re building a hybrid aircraft,” David Deptula, a retired Air Force lieutenant general who is now dean of the Mitchell Institute for Aerospace Studies. “It’s not an F-22. It’s not an F-35. It’s a combination thereof. That can be done much, much more rapidly than introducing a new design.”

The new variant — similar to one Lockheed is pitching to Japan — would incorporate the F-35’s more modern mission system and “other advancements in the stealth coatings and things of that nature,” according to a person familiar with the proposal. "

https://www.defenseone.com/business/201 ... ce/150943/

Main problem is the F119 is out of production IIRC. (No, the F135 would not be an adequate substitute.)



Military Contractors "pitch" ideas all of the time. Yet, that doesn't mean the US Military is "interested". :|


The odds are the F-35 program will get the majority of the funding for future upgrades. (i.e. ACE, EO/DAS, etc.) While, long-term funding will go to future 6th Generation Fighters. (F-X, NGAD, etc.)

The US wants to maintain it's technological superiority and funding any type of F-22/F-35 hybrid. Would take funds aware of the two aforementioned programs. In short "never" going to happen....


"IMHO"

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 03 Sep 2018, 06:26
by Corsair1963
lrrpf52 wrote:Just remember we're still supposed to be in the middle of the F-22 production right now, maybe halfway done with the original order number to replace F-15Cs, which haven't been built since Reagan's first term in office.

That's even with F-22 production having lasted for 15 years.

The gap created by the lack of F-15C replacements puts a big burden on our force structure, regardless of capabilities, because we need birds deployed to forward locations in EURCOM, PACOM, CENTCOM, and NORTHCOM.

Those 235 F-15C/Ds are the weakness right now, with no replacements in sight.

F-22----------------- 185
F-22 Original order -------------------------------------------------------750

F-35A ------------------ 305

F-15C/D -------------235
F-16C/D------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 1017


The F-35A was never meant to replace F-15C squadrons, which have maintained a long legacy passed onto them from F-4Es and F-106s all over the globe. The USAF F-35A was always envisioned as a numbers replacement for F-16C/Ds deployed all over the theaters.

The Hi-Lo Mix force structure was never envisioned as a (tiny Hi at 187) -Lo JSF scheme.


Sorry, the USAF planned on replacing at least some of the F-15C's with F-35A's. When they stopped production of the Raptor. While, the USN and USMC always planned on using the Lightning in the Air Superiority Role.


Honestly, considering the F-35 has no equal at least not in the foreseeable future. Then I don't get what "gap" you're referring too???

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 03 Sep 2018, 06:29
by Corsair1963
talkitron wrote:If Japan pays for half the R&D costs, it could be a good value if there are clear advantages over a six AMRAAM upgraded F-35.



You guys are dreaming................NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN! Honestly, this has been discussed over and over again. Hell, the F-22 isn't going to go back into production. Let alone some type of F-22/F-35 hybrid!


:doh: :doh: :doh:

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 03 Sep 2018, 06:32
by Corsair1963
mixelflick wrote:Meh..

It's starting to get murky. Meaning such a hybrid SHOULD result in an aircraft superior to the Raptor, but already there are calls for it to be something less. Either build it to be better or don't do it at all IMO.

By the time it's ready the US will be fielding PCA, itself a generation more capable than this "hybrid" Lockheed is pitching..


Exactly, the US isn't going to take funds away from future F-35 upgrades and/or a 6th Generation Fighter Programs. In order to develop a 5.5 Generation Raptor.

:roll:

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 03 Sep 2018, 08:48
by mmm
I don't see F-22/F-35 hybrid being a fallback option for PCA. By all indication PCA is to have an order of magnitude greater range than existing fighters, presumably so it can be based beyond the more vulnerable 1st island chain. Re-engine F-22 with something variable cycle or modest up-scaling won't cut it. In fact I don't even find the idea that PCA may be a specialized B-21 variant or something similar that far fetched, especially if you lean more heavily on DEW for self protection as well as unmanned teaming in mid to long term. But for a country that lives on the frontline, with no need to "penetrate"(say Japan), it might as well make some sense.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 03 Sep 2018, 09:36
by Corsair1963
The USAF has no "interest" in a 5.5 Generation Fighter. Which, is exactly what a F-22/F-35 hybrid would be. Especially, at the expense of upgrading future F-35's and developing a totally new 6th Generation Fighter.


Which, is why this whole idea is nothing short of nonsense.... :roll:

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 03 Sep 2018, 16:49
by mixelflick
I agree, but there's one wildcard in the equation: Congress

It happened with the Super Hornet, and happened again with the Super Duper Hornet. It was sold to Congress as a simple up sizing. Of course it was anything but, but there was $ for Congressional districts and... it worked.

It's going to take a LOT of $ for such things as the B-21. These programs are almost always over budget, although that program too promises much "off the shelf" technology. If the USAF already has trouble funding its F-35 buy, how much moreso will they with these other programs in the mix?

Besides, by the time LM is done selling this F-22/35 hybrid to Congress, it'll feel like 6th gen technology. Of course it won't be, but they don't have to convince you and I - only the talking heads. And again, there will be $ for their districts, especially if LM spreads the wealth to all states, as it did with the F-35. "Better than either the F-22 or 35, and cheaper than building "new" ...". They've fooled Congress before.

Why not once more??

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 04 Sep 2018, 00:50
by Corsair1963
mixelflick wrote:I agree, but there's one wildcard in the equation: Congress

It happened with the Super Hornet, and happened again with the Super Duper Hornet. It was sold to Congress as a simple up sizing. Of course it was anything but, but there was $ for Congressional districts and... it worked.

It's going to take a LOT of $ for such things as the B-21. These programs are almost always over budget, although that program too promises much "off the shelf" technology. If the USAF already has trouble funding its F-35 buy, how much moreso will they with these other programs in the mix?

Besides, by the time LM is done selling this F-22/35 hybrid to Congress, it'll feel like 6th gen technology. Of course it won't be, but they don't have to convince you and I - only the talking heads. And again, there will be $ for their districts, especially if LM spreads the wealth to all states, as it did with the F-35. "Better than either the F-22 or 35, and cheaper than building "new" ...". They've fooled Congress before.

Why not once more??



There is no interest on the part of the USAF and/or Congress in any F-22/F-35 Hybrid......NONE! :bang:

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 04 Sep 2018, 03:40
by talkitron
If I remember correctly, wasn't final assembly of the F-22 in Georgia? The Georgia congressional delegation might want to get back into the fighter business.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 04 Sep 2018, 08:14
by Corsair1963
talkitron wrote:If I remember correctly, wasn't final assembly of the F-22 in Georgia? The Georgia congressional delegation might want to get back into the fighter business.



The F-22 was produced at the Lockheed Martin Plant in Marietta, GA. Which, still makes the C-130J today with no end in sight.........


Yet, as I've said for the twentieth time. The F-22 is not going back into "production". :doh:

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 04 Sep 2018, 08:26
by zero-one
Corsair1963 wrote:

There is no interest on the part of the USAF and/or Congress in any F-22/F-35 Hybrid......NONE! :bang:


There have been so many studies and proposals fora possible restart of production the past few years.
thers DEFINITELY interest.

Cost is the only problem. If Japan can help with that, there's a chance it can push through

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 04 Sep 2018, 08:30
by Corsair1963
zero-one wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:

There is no interest on the part of the USAF and/or Congress in any F-22/F-35 Hybrid......NONE! :bang:


There have been so many studies and proposals from a possible restart of production the past few years.
thers DEFINITELY interest.

Cost is the only problem. If Japan can help with that, there's a chance it can push through



No there isn't.....USAF has expressed "NO INTEREST" in returning the F-22 to production. Yet, feel free to provide us a source to the contrary.... :wink:

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 04 Sep 2018, 09:02
by zero-one
Corsair1963 wrote:

No there isn't.....USAF has expressed "NO INTEREST" in returning the F-22 to production. Yet, feel free to provide us a source to the contrary.... :wink:


So general Hostage's comments that because his fleet of Raptors is too small, he will be forced to use F-35's in A-A role as well and numerous other USAF brass that have complained about the tiny Raptor fleet can be interpreted as "there is no interest for them to have more"?

Anyway here was an intensive study by the USAF to restart production
http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/20 ... ver-a-year

It doesn't exactly scream "we're not interested" to me

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 04 Sep 2018, 09:19
by Corsair1963
zero-one wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:

No there isn't.....USAF has expressed "NO INTEREST" in returning the F-22 to production. Yet, feel free to provide us a source to the contrary.... :wink:


So general Hostage's comments that because his fleet of Raptors is too small, he will be forced to use F-35's in A-A role as well and numerous other USAF brass that have complained about the tiny Raptor fleet can be interpreted as "there is no interest for them to have more"?

Anyway here was an intensive study by the USAF to restart production
http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/20 ... ver-a-year

It doesn't exactly scream "we're not interested" to me


Sorry, the Congress funded that study not the USAF. Which, knew putting the F-22 back into production would be cost "prohibited". As when production ended for the F-22 it was well over $100 Million. (i.e. $133 Million +?) Now add the cost of inflation, upgrades, and restarting production. See doesn't take (Albert) Einstein to see it was never going to happen. Hell, Congress is complaining about the cost of the F-35 today. Which, is vastly cheaper with excellent "export potential". Plus, we are just talking of putting the F-22 back into production not developing a New F-22/F-35 Hybrid on top of that....

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 04 Sep 2018, 09:29
by hornetfinn
I think the study was not favourable for restarting production of F-22.

The costs to restart production of the F-22 would be extensive, even with the involvement of foreign partners to reduce restart and/or procurement unit costs. Further fidelity to build an official cost estimate for budgetary planning purposes would require an additional 10-12 months and contractual engagement with industry. Just as F-22 production
would compete for fiscal and contractor resources with other Air Force programs, any F-22 export would compete with FMS customers' resources as well, including countries already committed to F-35 purchases. Most nations are not likely to have the resources available for procurement of an exp01t F-22, which extremely limits the ability of FMS to reduce the costs associated with restarting production.

The timeline associated with pursuing F-22 production restart would see new F-22deliveries starting in the mid-to-late 2020s. While the F-22 continues to remain the premier Air Superiority solution against the current threat, new production deliveries would start at a point where the F-22's capabilities will begin to be challenged by the advancing threats in the 2030 and beyond timeframe. F-22 production re-start would also directly compete against the resources necessary to pursue the CSAF-signed AS 2030 ECCT Flight Plan, which addresses the critical capabilities required to persist, survive, and be lethal in the rapidly evolving highly contested A2/AD threat environment. If funding was provided from outside Air Force TOA to assist in the capability and capacity challenges associated with prematurely ending F-22 production, the Air Force recommends that those resources be applied to the capability development plans outlined in the AS 2030 ECCT Flight Plan.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 04 Sep 2018, 09:36
by Corsair1963
The cost according to the report had the Unit Price in the region of $206 - $266 Million each. Just for restarting production not the so-called F-22/F-35 hybrid.....

As I said there is "no serious" interest in putting the F-22 back into production. From the US Congress and/or USAF....(i.e. non-starter)

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 04 Sep 2018, 09:57
by zero-one
Its well documented that the USAF has complained about the number of Raptors they have. This is well documented and undisputed. I think even you would agree to that.

We can argue day and night about how much interest there is, but don't tell us there is "No interest"
I'll be the first to defend the F-35's A-A capabilities against anyone. But against the Raptor, I'm sorry it's not on that level.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 04 Sep 2018, 10:08
by Corsair1963
zero-one wrote:Its well documented that the USAF has complained about the number of Raptors they have. This is well documented and undisputed. I think even you would agree to that.

We can argue day and night about how much interest there is, but don't tell us there is "No interest"
I'll be the first to defend the F-35's A-A capabilities against anyone. But against the Raptor, I'm sorry it's not on that level.



Sure when production ended for the F-22 in 2011. Many in the USAF would have liked more. Nonetheless, what we are talking about now. Is the USAF and/or Congress having serious interest in putting the F-22 back into production today. (i.e. 2018) Which, I have said over and over again "they do not". I have also pointed out that doing so wouldn't be cost effective. (Which, your own sources support!) Let alone developing and building this so-called "F-22/F-35 Hybrid". I can tell you there is no such political support for such an idea...or at least on a scale that would be "plausible".

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 04 Sep 2018, 10:22
by Corsair1963
I could add that Japan doesn't have the resources or political support to buy $300 Million Dollar F-22's either. If, you question that just read about the Japanese F-2. Which, was canceled after just 94 aircraft.....


UNIT PRICE 2009 $127 Million (USD)


BTW Japan is already squirming at the cost of Japanese assembled F-35's and has been considering cheaper US built examples.............

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 04 Sep 2018, 11:02
by zero-one
Well we don't know if the Hybrid would cost $300M in the first place.
There are a number of ways to slash the cost.

Lots of If's here but this is exactly why Japan is carefully studying this option.
If they can use F-35 components that are currently in production, then that should slash down cost. For example they can use the same An\asq-239 as the EW suite, RAM panels and materials could also be from the F-35. APG-77(v1) is built using APG-81 T/R modules.

Bottom line is, this Hybrid is not supposed to create new technologies. Its supposed to use components that are already in production to press cost down. Any F-35 component that can be slapped on an F-22's body basically.

Keep it strictly A-A. All the mud moving stuff will be handled by the F-35
Keep upgrades to a minimum. You're not trying to build a next gen super jet. You're simply trying to combine the capabilities of the current 5th gen

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 04 Sep 2018, 13:06
by mmm
But just say what if some export customer wants something with better flight performance, a bigger radar antenna, or they operate in a maritime environment and are really freaked out about "single-engine"?

I totally agree more F-22 or F-22 like fighter is not what USAF need. Doesn't mean something not in US service have zero chance being built. Historically it was mostly lower performance, "economical" fighter. But Japan was willing to pay a premium for what it needed in the case of F-2. Since you brought up the production run I'd also point out against 77 for F-1 it's actually a greater than 1:1 replacement, for a program having to go through the end of cold war it is not that bad. If you look at what they paid for a F-16 derivative a "restart F-22" cost is certainly not that crazy, even less so than a more homegrown solution(if they can find a suitable partner that is). Not saying digging F-22 out of grave and swap out mission system, probably making some airframe change as well is the same as F-2 but I won't dismiss it outright. Given proper industrial participation and right capability it might just happen.

OTOH even if PCA is up for export off the bat I doubt many export customers will find the extended range worth the trade-offs. There are probably other pieces in the PCA family of systems for the concept to actually work than just a manned "fighter", something that may prevent scaling down the force structure to that of a smaller air force.

To sum it up if someone requires a fighter more specialized than F-35 in air superiority role a F-22 reboot of sort is the only viable option, the question is just how badly one wants it.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 04 Sep 2018, 13:31
by marsavian
To sum it up if someone requires a fighter more specialized than F-35 in air superiority role a F-22 reboot of sort is the only viable option, the question is just how badly one wants it.


I think Japan wants it. They want to intercept and confront Chinese aircraft at range over these disputed islands and be assured of a good outcome if the interceptions turn hostile. The F-22 is tailor made to intercept quickly and if necessary dogfight well opposing aircraft which is why nations generally behave when it is on their doorstop. This is about sovereignty and mineral/oil/fishing rights which most nations will spend the necessary money to defend. The USAF will probably not buy any but will probably use the new sensors in the MLU. Corsair is just looking at simple airframe finances when politically for Japan there could be a lot more at stake. Also is the constant haranguing of those with opposing or different views really necessary or good conversational etiquette ?

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 04 Sep 2018, 13:42
by krieger22
zero-one wrote:Lots of If's here but this is exactly why Japan is carefully studying this option.
If they can use F-35 components that are currently in production, then that should slash down cost. For example they can use the same An\asq-239 as the EW suite, RAM panels and materials could also be from the F-35. APG-77(v1) is built using APG-81 T/R modules.

Bottom line is, this Hybrid is not supposed to create new technologies. Its supposed to use components that are already in production to press cost down. Any F-35 component that can be slapped on an F-22's body basically.


You're still looking at a need to integrate components and systems that didn't exist on the F-22 (structural RAM, construction techniques) during its production. F-35 know how will at least provide a knowledge base, but reimplementing what was done isn't going to be a 1:1 process, let alone be cheap or quick.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 04 Sep 2018, 16:35
by disconnectedradical
This hybrid will have worse supersonic performance than the F-22A simply because the newer and larger wings that carry more fuel. Just like how F-35C's supersonic performance is worse than F-35A's.

The problem with this hybrid is time. Now the production line is shut down, creating a F-22 based hybrid will mean it enters service around 2030, which is too late and eats into PCA schedule and budget. If this hybrid can enter service in mid 2020s then it is more reasonable but pushing it to 2030s is not worth it.

If it was 2011 then keeping production going is easy, but now it's 2018 and setting back up a production line is whole other matter.

Also, since the factory space to build F-22 in George is now changed to make other projects, where will they set up a hybrid production line?

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 04 Sep 2018, 16:59
by zero-one
From what we know, restarting the F-22 production will cost around $54 Billion IIRC.
What if the purpose of this Hybrid proposal is not just to combine the capabilities of the F-22 and 35 but also to make it easier to produce certain components.

If Lockheed can integrate major components of the F-35 into the F-22 then that solves a lot of the tooling and production restart problems.

APG-81, AN/ASQ-263, DAS, RAM coatings for the F-35 are all in production. And in the case of RAM coatings, it is already integrated in the F-22. The Computer boxes of the F-35 would also be a big help.

If they can use those components, then the only components they need to restart is the airframe and the F-119 motors. This could theoretically save costs. It will also press down the cost of the shared components due to economics of scale.

SAAB, KAI and HAL have been integrating components from other aircraft into their own designs for sometimes and have built some really cheap but very respectable light fighters so far.

Japan and the US can very well do that on a much larger scale.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 05 Sep 2018, 02:21
by Corsair1963
Sorry, your wild speculation isn't going to make it come true. As the F-22 isn't going back into production. Nor, are they going to develop some type of F-22/F-35 hybrid....




:doh:

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 05 Sep 2018, 02:51
by madrat
What nobody considered was the flipside of turning an F-35 into something more like F-22A. How about an F-35 hybrid designed for Mach 1.5+ super cruise?

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 05 Sep 2018, 10:15
by zero-one
madrat wrote:What nobody considered was the flipside of turning an F-35 into something more like F-22A. How about an F-35 hybrid designed for Mach 1.5+ super cruise?



I think when it comes to performance optimization nothing beats the Raptor's design.
What makes the F-35 special are the sensors, avionics, data links and computers.

It'll be much better if they push through with the Raptor's airframe/engine combo and F-35 innards rather than force the F-35 to perform beyond it's envelope limits.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 05 Sep 2018, 10:32
by zero-one
https://www.defenseone.com/business/201 ... ce/150943/

With a Raptor’s body and the JSF’s brain, the new jet would aim to answer the next decade’s Russian and Chinese threats....The new variant — similar to one Lockheed is pitching to Japan — would incorporate the F-35’s more modern mission system and “other advancements in the stealth coatings and things of that nature


If the US bites, then this could be the next big fighter program.
Much better than some of those B-21 inspired PCA proposals.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 05 Sep 2018, 11:09
by hornetfinn
zero-one wrote:From what we know, restarting the F-22 production will cost around $54 Billion IIRC.
What if the purpose of this Hybrid proposal is not just to combine the capabilities of the F-22 and 35 but also to make it easier to produce certain components.

If Lockheed can integrate major components of the F-35 into the F-22 then that solves a lot of the tooling and production restart problems.

APG-81, AN/ASQ-263, DAS, RAM coatings for the F-35 are all in production. And in the case of RAM coatings, it is already integrated in the F-22. The Computer boxes of the F-35 would also be a big help.

If they can use those components, then the only components they need to restart is the airframe and the F-119 motors. This could theoretically save costs. It will also press down the cost of the shared components due to economics of scale.

SAAB, KAI and HAL have been integrating components from other aircraft into their own designs for sometimes and have built some really cheap but very respectable light fighters so far.

Japan and the US can very well do that on a much larger scale.


I would not say Saab, KAI or HAL have built really cheap fighters. I'd say their aircraft are pretty expensive for the capabilties they offer.

Using F-35 components in F-22 airframe would help with cost and availability of those components, but would require some pretty serious design work with the avionics, cabling, databus systems and software. Those would increase non-recurring costs but lower recurring costs. That means there needs to be fairly substantial production run to save money overall. I'd say that Japanese alone would not do it as the costs would be far too high for a small production run. That might be possible if USAF would upgrade all the F-22As to this standard and buy say another 200 aircraft. Of course all this would mean that it would take about a decade for operational jets to emerge.

I think that will not happen though as the F-35 gives much better value for the money. F-22 might be better air-to-air fighter, but F-35 is still much better than anything else and it's much more capable multi-role jet overall. I don't see a threat situation where more numerous F-35s would have seriously more trouble than significantly smaller number of F-22H(ybrid)s. Especially since we are talking about post C2D2 F-35 here.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 05 Sep 2018, 13:52
by zero-one
I think this proposal has a lot going for it if it will not eat into the F-35's budget for both Japan and the US.

See, not everything can be solved by "buying more F-35s"
both nations are not trying to buy as many F-35's as possible. The USAF is sticking to it's 1,763 commitment and JSDAF has so far committed to 42. They may plan on buying more than that. For the sake of argument, lets say they plan on buying 150 F-35A variants

What all this is telling me is that they think their fleet of 150 F-35's won't be enough to achieve the kill/loss exchange ratios they want if a full scale air war with China will occur. And simply buying more F-35s isn't the answer

That doesn't mean the F-35 will loose, it may have a kill\loss exchange which is very high like 17:1 or 20:1 similar to RedFlag. But they want the ridiculous Raptor like kill\loss ratios (144:1, 200+ : 1 etc. )

They tried it on their own.Won't work, this whole Hybrid thing is just another proposal on how they can achieve their desired kill\loss ratios

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 05 Sep 2018, 14:06
by madrat
The F-35 isn't exactly lacking power to operate at F-22A levels, it lacks the intakes. It probably needs beefier control surfaces, too. But it was designed to fly at Mach 1.6 so it's not like you're converting a Cessna into a Sabre.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 05 Sep 2018, 14:24
by Fox1
If we have learned anything at all about military procurement over the past 30 years, then we should know better than to put all our eggs in the PCA basket. Going by recent history, there's much greater odds that PCA never enters production as opposed to becoming our air combat savior. Just think for a moment all of the big projects that have been cancelled outright in that time period. Heck, we've been trying unsuccessfully to field a new scout helicopter for ages.

What I have learned is that you should continue production/buys of your best equipment until you have a viable replacement in production and on solid ground. The "fighter gap" we are seeing today largely stems from failure to buy new F-15 and F-16 fighters while we waited for the F-22 and F-35 to come online in significant numbers. We should have continued buying both of those aircraft in quantity and tinkering with them to improve capabilities throughout the late 1990s and 2000s. If we had, today we'd have a much fresher force and an overall more capable one than we currently possess.

It was a terrible mistake to stop production of the F-22 in the first place. Terrible. That said, putting an improved version of the Raptor back into production, even at great cost, may be the safest bet when it comes to ensuring we have sufficient numbers of capable, air dominance fighters 15 or 20 years down the road. Some may call such a vision a pipe dream. I'd submit that it isn't as much of a pipe dream as thinking the PCA concept ever gets off the ground. Put the Raptor back into production! That way if PCA does fail, we aren't left with no options.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 05 Sep 2018, 15:12
by botsing
Fox1 wrote:It was a terrible mistake to stop production of the F-22 in the first place. Terrible.

If I remember correctly they either had to give up parts of the F-35 and B-21 program or cut F-22 production, budgets have this irritating thing that it can only be spend once and the money drain doesn't stop after procurement either. ;)

Weather they made the correct compromise for all productions involved we will only know in the distant future.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 05 Sep 2018, 15:27
by mmm
Speaking of USAF's F-22A fleet, an avionics update is bound to happen in the not too distant future, unless they're looking at an early replacement of an outlier model like the B-2 with LRS-B. F-35-nizing F-22 might happen regardless.

OTOH any unnecessary airframe changes are just complicating factors. Japan might want some something to "practice" on to preserve their engineering talent but it might just make the whole thing too risky and expensive.

I do have to admit however interesting this whole deal sounds, a "just buy more F-35, duh" option is by far the more likely one. As for semi indigenous clean sheet fighter co-developed with, I duuno BAE, or Saab? I just don't see it as serious enough to be anything more than a bargaining chip on negotiation table.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 05 Sep 2018, 17:29
by disconnectedradical
zero-one wrote:https://www.defenseone.com/business/2018/08/lockheed-pitching-f-22f-35-hybrid-us-air-force/150943/

With a Raptor’s body and the JSF’s brain, the new jet would aim to answer the next decade’s Russian and Chinese threats....The new variant — similar to one Lockheed is pitching to Japan — would incorporate the F-35’s more modern mission system and “other advancements in the stealth coatings and things of that nature


If the US bites, then this could be the next big fighter program.
Much better than some of those B-21 inspired PCA proposals.


No, this hybrid will be fine if it DOESN'T eat into PCA. If it does it will be horrible.

PCA inspired by B-21 program is actually good thing, because using tech with higher TRL will lower costs. PCA will be new airframe that take full advantage of ADVENT unlike F-22/F-35 hybrid. Even YF-23 is better, faster and more fuel.

zero-one wrote:I think when it comes to performance optimization nothing beats the Raptor's design.


YF-23???

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 05 Sep 2018, 17:42
by zero-one
disconnectedradical wrote:PCA inspired by B-21 program is actually good thing, because using tech with higher TRL will lower costs. PCA will be new airframe that take full advantage of ADVENT unlike F-22/F-35 hybrid.

I'm just not a fan of these, slow, heavy, low performance air frames.
disconnectedradical wrote:YF-23???


YF-22 was better. Even Northrop's engineers conceded that Lockheed prioritized agility more than they did.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 05 Sep 2018, 19:33
by disconnectedradical
zero-one wrote:I'm just not a fan of these, slow, heavy, low performance air frames.


Who said PCA will be slow? Based on B-21 program means using tech that's at higher readiness level, not using B-21 based airframe. PCA will be fast AND long ranged, something F-22 can't fundamentally meet because of fuel fraction.

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/19 ... ke-in-2030

"At present, there is little firm information about what this aircraft might look like beyond the service’s desire for it to be capable of flying for extended periods at supersonic speeds and be even more low-observable in order to avoid and defeat existing and emerging threats, have a long range to help give it more independence from increasingly vulnerable aerial refueling tankers, and just generally be able to operate persistently in denied areas."

zero-one wrote:YF-22 was better. Even Northrop's engineers conceded that Lockheed prioritized agility more than they did.


Better how? You pick out how Lockheed prioritized agility more as proof that it's better? Some low speed and post stall maneuverability but much worse range (especially supersonic range). How does that make YF-22 better?

No offense but is just pure F-22 fanboying.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 05 Sep 2018, 19:58
by zero-one
disconnectedradical wrote:
Who said PCA will be slow? Based on B-21 program means using tech that's at higher readiness level, not using B-21 based airframe. PCA will be fast AND long ranged, something F-22 can't fundamentally meet because of fuel fraction.


Its still going to be heavy and sluggish. Even if it can accelerate up to Mach 4 (after half an hour) it won't pull any Gs.
And before you say wizbang tech makes Agility useless. Lets see what the Lockheed has to say about that.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ns-412288/
Lockheed Martin says it is too early to discount highly maneuverable fighter aircraft designs for future US Air Force and Navy warplanes.....

“In a situation where maybe there’s a numerical mismatch between the number of threat aircraft and the number of allied aircraft, there may be situations where dogfighting emerges, even as a secondary capability, but one you may have to resort to,” Ruszkowski tells Flightglobal. “Or, in situations where long-range missiles are negated by some other capabilities and now they’re rendered relatively ineffective. What bet are you going to make?”



What about the USAF, what do they think??
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ir-423994/

Col Alex Grynkewich wrote:Grynkewich says range and payload are critical, but some studies show that speed, manoeuvrability and some level of low-observable shaping or stealth still have their place



disconnectedradical wrote:much worse range (especially supersonic range). How does that make YF-22 better?


Lower? Maybe, much worse. I don't think so.
If you have figures, please show them.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 05 Sep 2018, 20:33
by disconnectedradical
zero-one wrote:Its still going to be heavy and sluggish. Even if it can accelerate up to Mach 4 (after half an hour) it won't pull any Gs.


Why would it be sluggish? A fast, long ranged, stealthy PCA can still have good amount of maneuverability. Why do you think PCA can't do better what a F-22/F-35 hybrid do? :bang:

zero-one wrote:Lower? Maybe, much worse. I don't think so.
If you have figures, please show them.


https://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-b ... uilt-14328

"Though the YF-22 was a more maneuverable aircraft, the YF-23 had far greater supersonic cruise capability—especially when outfitted with the General Electric YF120 variable cycle engines. Even when powered by the less powerful Pratt & Whitney YF-119, the YF-23 had the ability to fly an entire sortie at supersonic speeds above Mach 1.4 (explained to me sometime ago by Barry Watts at the Wilson Center—who was an analyst on the Northrop team at the time). The sleek prototype jet could also cruise at slightly more than Mach 1.8 when equipped with the YF-120."

YF-22 is a bit more maneuverable but YF-23 still met ATF maneuvering requirements.

To you the answer is always F-22. In 2011 when production line was open it makes sense but now not really and ESPECIALLY not if it eats into PCA.

zero-one wrote:I think when it comes to performance optimization nothing beats the Raptor's design.


F-22 is not unbeatable airframe. YF-23 is probably better optimized for how USAF uses the F-22 right now.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 05 Sep 2018, 21:54
by zero-one
disconnectedradical wrote:
Why would it be sluggish? A fast, long ranged, stealthy PCA can still have good amount of maneuverability. Why do you think PCA can't do better what a F-22/F-35 hybrid do? :bang:


Oh no, don't try to move the goalposts now.
A while ago you had no concerns for the lack of maneuverability a B-21 based PCA will bring.

You know very well that in aviation circles a B-21 bassed PCA means having an aircraft that is literally bassed on the B-21 design. Flying wing, no tail, extreme range, lots and lots of fuel.

A.k.a. A bomber that can shoot air-air. Could be slightly modified, a bit faster or smaller, but its basically a bomber doing an interceptor's job.

https://www.popularmechanics.com/milita ... e-fighter/
It would use its radar and infrared sensors to destroy enemy fighters at beyond visual range, so it needn't be a dogfighter. A fighter-sized flying wing design, even something that looks like a miniature B-21, is a possibility.


Thats what a B-21 bassed PCA is, and you said that was a "good idea"

If dogfighting will be your fall back, then go for extreme agility. Raptor levels at the bare minimum. Having no tail and massive fuel tanks, I doubt you'll be able to out maneuver Mig-23s.

disconnectedradical wrote:(explained to me sometime ago by Barry Watts at the Wilson Center—who was an analyst on the Northrop team at the time).

I'm pretty sure an analyst working for Lockheed would have a similar story on why their design was better.

disconnectedradical wrote: The sleek prototype jet could also cruise at slightly more than Mach 1.8 when equipped with the YF-120."

We know that the current F-22 can supercruise at Mach 1.8 even without Variable Cycle engines. Maybe it can also go slightly more.

disconnectedradical wrote:To you the answer is always F-22. In 2011 when production line was open it makes sense but now not really and ESPECIALLY not if it eats into PCA.


If the PCA does turn out to be a minature B-21, then thats okay, but don't designate it as the next generation fighter. Call it what it is, Its literally a long range interceptor.

The USAF will still need a real fighter to replace the Raptor one day. And this Hybrid F-22/35 can be cheaper than a clean sheet design.

So instead of funding a long range interceptor (PCA) and a 6th gen fighter (F-X), they can replace F-X with this Hybrid.
disconnectedradical wrote:F-22 is not unbeatable airframe. YF-23 is probably better optimized for how USAF uses the F-22 right now.


The USAF seems perfectly happy with the speed and stealth of the Raptor, and I hope you're not suggesting that the YF-23 can be resurected. Cause if they can't do that with the F-22, how on earth can they do that with the YF-23

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 05 Sep 2018, 21:55
by wrightwing
disconnectedradical wrote:



"Though the YF-22 was a more maneuverable aircraft, the YF-23 had far greater supersonic cruise capability—especially when outfitted with the General Electric YF120 variable cycle engines. Even when powered by the less powerful Pratt & Whitney YF-119, the YF-23 had the ability to fly an entire sortie at supersonic speeds above Mach 1.4 (explained to me sometime ago by Barry Watts at the Wilson Center—who was an analyst on the Northrop team at the time). The sleek prototype jet could also cruise at slightly more than Mach 1.8 when equipped with the YF-120."



The F-22 is faster than the YF-22. As for flying an entire sortie at M1.4, no metrics were given about the distances/duration involved. If we're talking about a 1000nm combat radius at M1.4, that's very impressive. If we're talking about a 200nm combat radius, that's not nearly as impressive. We know several things about the F-22. It has demonstrated supercruise above M1.8, and can cruise at some speed above M1.5 for 41 minutes, plus subsonic legs. We know that the F-22 used a much less risky weapons bay configuration. We know the F-22 had superior agility. We know nothing about the avionics/sensor fusion that would've been incorporated into YF-23, which are at least as important as any kinematics.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 05 Sep 2018, 22:27
by f-16adf
Not trying to take sides here. But remember Lee Begin and Northrop tended to "over-estimate" the performance of the P530 and eventual YF-17; as compared to its actual performance metrics during the LWF fly-off. I would not be surprised if Northrop may have "over-estimated" some metrics for the YF-23. The ATF showdown was only about 16-17 years later.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 05 Sep 2018, 23:09
by disconnectedradical
zero-one wrote:Oh no, don't try to move the goalposts now.
A while ago you had no concerns for the lack of maneuverability a B-21 based PCA will bring.


Where did I move goalpost?

You have this weird interpretation of PCA program based on B-21 program mean airframe will be based on B-21. No, that's NOT what it means. B-21 program is able to move pretty fast because it uses more tech at higher readiness level, even if the airframe is new. The same way PCA program can be faster too. That does NOT mean PCA airframe will be based on B-21. How you interpreted into this is ridiculous.

zero-one wrote:You know very well that in aviation circles a B-21 bassed PCA means having an aircraft that is literally bassed on the B-21 design.


First, give official source statement that PCA is based on B-21 airframe.

zero-one wrote:https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/a22950/air-force-new-long-range-fighter/
It would use its radar and infrared sensors to destroy enemy fighters at beyond visual range, so it needn't be a dogfighter. A fighter-sized flying wing design, even something that looks like a miniature B-21, is a possibility.


It's possibility, not even official by USAF by speculation by article's author. You interpret that as what PCA will be to justify why it's worse than F-22 hybrid. Way to go cherrypicking.

zero-one wrote:
disconnectedradical wrote:(explained to me sometime ago by Barry Watts at the Wilson Center—who was an analyst on the Northrop team at the time).

I'm pretty sure an analyst working for Lockheed would have a similar story on why their design was better.

disconnectedradical wrote: The sleek prototype jet could also cruise at slightly more than Mach 1.8 when equipped with the YF-120."

We know that the current F-22 can supercruise at Mach 1.8 even without Variable Cycle engines. Maybe it can also go slightly more.


Find me the Lockheed analyst that says YF-22 speed and supersonic range is better then. Lockheed only touted YF-22 better maneuverability, nothing about better speed or range. F-22 got faster because the rear fuselage was slimmed down which also caused reduced fuel and range compare to prototype YF-22.

zero-one wrote:If the PCA does turn out to be a minature B-21, then thats okay, but don't designate it as the next generation fighter. Call it what it is, Its literally a long range interceptor.

The USAF will still need a real fighter to replace the Raptor one day. And this Hybrid F-22/35 can be cheaper than a clean sheet design.

So instead of funding a long range interceptor (PCA) and a 6th gen fighter (F-X), they can replace F-X with this Hybrid.


You keep saying PCA can't be a fighter and use that to justify a hybrid. All your argument on based on that, so show some real statement from USAF showing PCA definitely won't be a fighter. Right now PCA requirement is still being defined but it's definitely for the goal of air supremacy, so how do you know that PCA can't do what F-22 hybrid do better?

zero-one wrote:The USAF seems perfectly happy with the speed and stealth of the Raptor, and I hope you're not suggesting that the YF-23 can be resurected. Cause if they can't do that with the F-22, how on earth can they do that with the YF-23


I'm not suggesting YF-23, I say keep going with clean sheet PCA which will perform better than F-22 most importantly in range, especially since YF-23 show we can already do better. Also, article says the hybrid need new wings for more fuel, so some supersonic performance will be sacrifice for range. Right there is already a tradeoff made because of using existing F-22 airframe.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 06 Sep 2018, 03:46
by Corsair1963
mmm wrote:Speaking of USAF's F-22A fleet, an avionics update is bound to happen in the not too distant future, unless they're looking at an early replacement of an outlier model like the B-2 with LRS-B. F-35-nizing F-22 might happen regardless.

OTOH any unnecessary airframe changes are just complicating factors. Japan might want some something to "practice" on to preserve their engineering talent but it might just make the whole thing too risky and expensive.

I do have to admit however interesting this whole deal sounds, a "just buy more F-35, duh" option is by far the more likely one. As for semi indigenous clean sheet fighter co-developed with, I duuno BAE, or Saab? I just don't see it as serious enough to be anything more than a bargaining chip on negotiation table.



Forget the F-22 / F-35 Hybrid. Just to return the F-22 to production. You would also have to give the Raptor a considerable "upgrade" in the process. This would increase the already extremely high cost to return it to production.


Which, is "why" it is never going to happen....

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 06 Sep 2018, 07:21
by zero-one
disconnectedradical wrote:
First, give official source statement that PCA is based on B-21 airframe.

The USAF has not given any official statements yet on what PCA will look like, so you wont find them saying it will or will not be bassed in a B-21 airframe.

What I specifically said was, I think a Hybrid F-22/35 design would be better than the "B-21 bassed proposals".
Proposals made by the aviation community, both in the manufacturing sector and authors of articles like the one I posted.

This B-21 based PCA and F-22/35 Hybrid are both nothing more than proposals anyway.



disconnectedradical wrote:Find me the Lockheed analyst that says YF-22 speed and supersonic range is better then.


The YF-23 was a "little faster" I'll give you that. Publicly released supercruise values peg the YF-23 at Mach 1.6 while the YF-22 was at Mach 1.58. They later claimed that they went above 1.6. Now that could be mach 1.8 which would be impressive or it could also be Mach 1.65 which is technically not lying in their part.

disconnectedradical wrote:You keep saying PCA can't be a fighter and use that to justify a hybrid.


What I'm saying is a PCA bassed B-21 isn't a good choice. If they somehow make your version of the PCA, which by now I think is everything the Raptor is just with longer range, then great.

But if its gona be what authors described as a minature B-21, tailess flying wing which is more like an interceptor. Then I think the US needs to fund another fighter program a new LWF program to handle close range engagements.

I think the Hybrid will also have better range than the F-22. Think about it, the F-35 is much smaller than the F-22 but somhow managed to carry more sensors, computers and fuel. How?

I think its because the computer boxes are much smaller in the F-35 giving it more space for fuel. Now use those computers or maybe even smaller versions on an F-22 airframe and its not impossible to think you can fit 20,000 lbs or more.

YF-120 was a variable cycle engine that could fit on the YF-22, so its not impossible to make ADVENT as small as that.

ADVENT + More fuel = RANGE

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 06 Sep 2018, 09:44
by hornetfinn
zero-one wrote:I think the Hybrid will also have better range than the F-22. Think about it, the F-35 is much smaller than the F-22 but somhow managed to carry more sensors, computers and fuel. How?

I think its because the computer boxes are much smaller in the F-35 giving it more space for fuel. Now use those computers or maybe even smaller versions on an F-22 airframe and its not impossible to think you can fit 20,000 lbs or more.


Another reason is having only one engine instead of two. F-35 also has lighter construction because it uses more composites and other light materials, etc which means there is slightly more volume for the same weight. One another reason are also the intake ducts which take a lot more space in F-22 than in F-35. This also means more supporting structures which also take up space. Also having sleeker body for great supersonic performance also makes it more difficult to use the internal volume efficiently. F-22 is built like sports car and F-35 like sports wagon.

Such F-22 hybrid with F-35 avionics might have slightly more internal fuel than F-22A, but not nearly like F-35 has.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 06 Sep 2018, 09:48
by garrya
zero-one wrote:But if its gona be what authors described as a minature B-21, tailess flying wing which is more like an interceptor. Then I think the US needs to fund another fighter program a new LWF program to handle close range engagements.

But why? especially when laser weapon are coming online ?
Image

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 06 Sep 2018, 10:38
by zero-one
hornetfinn wrote:
Such F-22 hybrid with F-35 avionics might have slightly more internal fuel than F-22A, but not nearly like F-35 has.


Well the F-22 already has nearly as much Fuel as the F-35 as it is. And thats with bulky 90s hardware.
Its not too much of a stretch to think they can develop far smaller hardware at minimal cost woth 2020s computer technology.

garrya wrote:But why? especially when laser weapon are coming online ?


Well I have a lot of questions about these lasers.
Whats the range of these things anyway. I often see the bulky Chemical powered lasers being tested and the entire system is housed in small buildings.
If you guys have more info, then kindly do share.

If they can miniturize these lasers how much damage can they inflict and at what range. What if the first fighter lasers we see will be large front facing weapons that can destroy fighter sized aircraft but only after 1 minute of exposure.
Or they could be extremely small turret based weapons that are only there to blind IR seekers.

Anyway, even Lockheed seems to think theres a place for extreme agility in the future
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... gns-412288</span>/
Lockheed Martin says it is too early to discount highly maneuverable fighter aircraft designs for future US Air Force and Navy warplanes.....

“In a situation where maybe there’s a numerical mismatch between the number of threat aircraft and the number of allied aircraft, there may be situations where dogfighting emerges, even as a secondary capability, but one you may have to resort to,” Ruszkowski tells Flightglobal. “Or, in situations where long-range missiles are negated by some other capabilities and now they’re rendered relatively ineffective. What bet are you going to make?”


So does the USAF
<span class="skimlinks-unlinked">https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/usaf-backs-off-sixth-gen-fighter-in-quest-for-air-423994</span>/

Col Alex Grynkewich wrote:Grynkewich says range and payload are critical, but some studies show that speed, manoeuvrability and some level of low-observable shaping or stealth still have their place

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 06 Sep 2018, 11:18
by garrya
zero-one wrote:Well I have a lot of questions about these lasers.
Whats the range of these things anyway. I often see the bulky Chemical powered lasers being tested and the entire system is housed in small buildings.
If you guys have more info, then kindly do share.
If they can miniturize these lasers how much damage can they inflict and at what range. What if the first fighter lasers we see will be large front facing weapons that can destroy fighter sized aircraft but only after 1 minute of exposure.

This is electrical rather than chemical laser so the system is alot less bulky
Image
For the FA-18E/F, the likelihood of being able to field a thermally-managed, adequately-powered 100 kW laser system is low. And, while a 50 kW system appears (via HELEEOS simulation) to be an adequate air-to-air offensive and/or defensive weapon, its utility in the air-to-ground environment would be somewhat limited to the softer targets. Clearly, a 25 kW system will be inadequate in the air-to-ground environment. However, it could prove to be a decent defensive air-to-air weapon (in the SAM DEFENSE role) Diffraction effects make the power on target at ranges greater than 10 km too small to be effective, and thus it would have little tactical value in the offensive air-to-air role. The versatility of an HEL weapon makes it an attractive option for the warfighter. If a 50 kW or greater weapon could be fielded on an FA-18E/F, then it could prove to be a valuable asset. A 25 kW weapon, serving only as a defensive, close-range system, might be too much of a sacrifice of weapon stations and fuel carrying capacity for the Super Hornet.

The Joint Strike Fighter should be able to adequately power a 100 kW weapon. The question of cooling remains, although those technologies are under development. A 100 kW system is clearly versatile in both the air-to-air and air-to-ground environments, and this weapon would revolutionize the tactics of the aerial arena. Again, though, it will never be a standalone weapon. There will always be a need for explosive weapons and hard target penetrators to destroy certain targets. There will always be scenarios where the laser, no matter how powerful, will be relatively useless (e.g. bad weather), and thus there will always be a need for the conventional weaponry of the strike fighter

High Energy Solid State and Free Electron Laser Systems In Tactical Aviation - Robb P Manfield, Naval Postgraduate School
https://www.scribd.com/doc/260233033/HE ... edQtJhRCUa
High Energy Laser on the Joint Strike Fighter - A Reality in 2025? - Lt. Col. Jeffrey A Hausmann (USAF) - Air War College
https://www.scribd.com/doc/260230916/JS ... ergy-Laser
Military Utility of HEL Fighter, Tom Burris, Lockheed Martin
https://www.scribd.com/doc/260232584/HE ... YG1Ff0bzUb
A HEL Testbed for High Accuracy Beam Pointing and Control - Naval Post Graduate School
https://www.scribd.com/doc/260233032...hq2aYj1KiTE6ZL

zero-one wrote:Or they could be extremely small turret based weapons that are only there to blind IR seekers.

Already exist, they are called DIRCM, both PAK-FA and F-35 have them
Image
Image

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 06 Sep 2018, 11:34
by hornetfinn
zero-one wrote:
hornetfinn wrote:Such F-22 hybrid with F-35 avionics might have slightly more internal fuel than F-22A, but not nearly like F-35 has.


Well the F-22 already has nearly as much Fuel as the F-35 as it is. And thats with bulky 90s hardware.
Its not too much of a stretch to think they can develop far smaller hardware at minimal cost woth 2020s computer technology.


I said "like F-35 has" with which I tried to say comparatively similar amount of fuel. Since F-22 is much bigger aircraft, it carrying nearly as much fuel as F-35 has is not really that impressive. If F-22 carried similar amount of fuel comparatively (like fuel fraction) than F-35, it would carry about 10,000 lb more than it currently does. That equals about 5.5 cubic meters of fuel volume. The avionics volume likely is significantly smaller to begin with and even F-35 avionics would take some space. Replacing avionics with more modern components would not mean much with fuel volume, but would naturally have other benefits. ADVENT engine would mean a lot more in terms of range, but will F-22 ever get such engine upgrade/replacement?

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 06 Sep 2018, 13:37
by mmm
F-22 never had that much range. 8t of internal fuel would have been a lot for any other tactical fighter, only if F-22 didn't weight 20t empty running on a pair of F119. Thicken the wings, retrofit the engine with an adaptive cycle one(I think the more commonly quoted range improvement is about 30%?), get more efficiency from I don't know where. Say you double the combat radius, it still can't penetrate mainland China very deep from a basing location outside strike fighter/GLCM/MRBM range. As air defense fighter with tanker support close to home though I think it is more than adequate.

I'd agree laser is another elephant in the room. I don't think a hard kill laser is gonna take MW class power. In a gloves off war hundred kW range laser can probably cook the pilot pretty well in a few short seconds. And that could happen as early as the next decade. From my complete layman perspective you need to either go fully enclosed cockpit relying on more redundant DAS sensor to fly the plane in order to be somewhat protected, or you have to go remotely piloted/semi autonomous. For those planes that have to remain manned bigger mean better ability to accommodate DEW as well as ability to adsorb such a hit.

Getting first look and first shot could be even more important, maybe something to be achieved at all cost. Should that come into conflict with traditional fighter performance I'm prepared to see old school agile fighter go.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 06 Sep 2018, 15:20
by zero-one
garrya wrote:Already exist, they are called DIRCM, both PAK-FA and F-35 have them


Yeah, I'm famillar with DIRCM. Been used in helicopters for years. But if I remember correctly the F-35 doesn't have them yet. Could be wrong.
Well I think we're a long way from having powerful miniature lasers that can inflict serious damage at considerable ranges.

And once we have that. Firing rates will be the next problem. If you have enough power to operate 2 Turrets simultaneously but the firing rate is around 10 seconds per shot, you'll still need a good amount of kinematic performance. Else you're an easier target for saturation attacks.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 06 Sep 2018, 15:32
by mixelflick
Couple of things..

The YF-23A was stated to be "a LOT faster" than the YF-22A, in at least one documentary I've seen.

Second, all this talk about a F-22/35 hybrid wouldn't be happening unless...... people weren't confident that the F-35 could take all comers in air to air. But we've been told the F-35 will be the best fighter in the sky, bar the Raptor. So XYZ country should just order more F-35's.

Which is it?

Depends who you ask I suppose...

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 06 Sep 2018, 15:34
by zero-one
mmm wrote:. Say you double the combat radius, it still can't penetrate mainland China very deep from a basing location outside strike fighter/GLCM/MRBM range. As air defense fighter with tanker support close to home though I think it is more than adequate.


Well, think about it this way. All aircraft need tanker support. Even B-52s need tanker support sometimes. How much tanker support is the question we should be answering. As it is the F-22 will need a lot of tanker support in a war against China.

This is actually where politcs come in.
Lets say F-22s are used in support of a war between China and Japan.
All bases within Japan are within reach of Chinese ICBMs.

So the USAF needs to base their F-22 on countries that China is not at war with. (I.e. Korea, Philippines, Thailand, Singapore, Australia) If China decides to strike the Raptors there, then they risk widening the war against those countries as well.
This tactic was actually used against the US in Vietnam. N.Vietnamese landed their Migs inside China knowing that the US is not allowed to bomb Chinese airfields.

Now the goal is not to eliminate the need for tankers, rather just reduce the reliance on tankers.
MQ-25 with a boom probe will also make tanker operations a lot safer and more available inside IADS areas.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 06 Sep 2018, 15:41
by zero-one
mixelflick wrote:But we've been told the F-35 will be the best fighter in the sky, bar the Raptor. So XYZ country should just order more F-35's.
..


Well I beleive that. But heres what I think. The reason why Japan is so intrested in a dedicated A-A fighter in the F-22s class is not because they are not confident in the F-35.

It is because they want to acheive a certain kill/loss ratio if a war with China will occur.
They know they'll be outnumbered in the air.

So far the F-35 has demonstrated a kill/loss ratio of 20:1 in RedFlag which is amazing. But what if Japan wants a ratio of
144:1. So far only 1 aircraft has demonstrated those type of numbers.

The answer isn't always "lets buy more F-35s"

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 06 Sep 2018, 15:56
by mixelflick
zero-one wrote:
mixelflick wrote:But we've been told the F-35 will be the best fighter in the sky, bar the Raptor. So XYZ country should just order more F-35's.
..


Well I beleive that. But heres what I think. The reason why Japan is so intrested in a dedicated A-A fighter in the F-22s class is not because they are not confident in the F-35.

It is because they want to acheive a certain kill/loss ratio if a war with China will occur.
They know they'll be outnumbered in the air.

So far the F-35 has demonstrated a kill/loss ratio of 20:1 in RedFlag which is amazing. But what if Japan wants a ratio of
144:1. So far only 1 aircraft has demonstrated those type of numbers.

The answer isn't always "lets buy more F-35s"


I see. I would have thought otherwise, meaning 20 to 1 is good enough. Maybe we're running F-35 vs F-35 or F-35 vs F-117 simulations out there to get data on how F-35 would do vs. J-20. It's an interesting dynamic for sure. Japan used to have quite an edge vs. China but let it erode. In all fairness with no new US fighters until the advent of the F-22, not much they could do. The F-2 debacle proved that, LOL

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 06 Sep 2018, 18:11
by garrya
zero-one wrote:Yeah, I'm famillar with DIRCM. Been used in helicopters for years. But if I remember correctly the F-35 doesn't have them yet. Could be wrong.

Currently no, development started in 2013 intended for block 4
http://m.aviationweek.com/defense/north ... ammer-f-35


zero-one wrote: Well I think we're a long way from having powerful miniature lasers that can inflict serious damage at considerable ranges

You don't really need to deal serious damage at considerable range though. Firstly, effective engagement range for cannon is 1-2 km at most, so a high power laser with 3-4 km engagement range already render agility a moot point in close combat. Secondly, while total airframe destruction might take more power, blind the pilot isn't very power demanding (I know it goes against international law but let be real, it will be used that way)

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 06 Sep 2018, 19:10
by zero-one
garrya wrote:You don't really need to deal serious damage at considerable range though. Firstly, effective engagement range for cannon is 1-2 km at most, so a high power laser with 3-4 km engagement range already render agility a moot point in close combat. Secondly, while total airframe destruction might take more power, blind the pilot isn't very power demanding (I know it goes against international law but let be real, it will be used that way)


Well if the goal is to aim the laser on the cokpit of an aircraft, then thats extremely difficult to do, specially if your target is a highly maneuverable fighter. As seen in many test, lasers need to remain pointed to the target for a few seconds before they can inflict damage.



Pay close attention to the target drone at 22 seconds. The laser was pointed at the drone for a few seconds before damaging it. I thought it would rip the small drone in half but I didn't see visible damage after the drone rolled out of control. Maybe there was a small hole in the port wing. And this was from a giant shipborne laser.

For fighters with far smaller weapons and far less power, airshow stunts like the Cobra become a viable defensive maneuver to protect the cockpit from the laser.

Now are theese blinding lasers turret based which can track highly agile targets? Great, but what if they are massive front facing laser cannons?

If adversaries start fielding blinding laser weapons, that will make high maneuverability all the more necessary.
Its far easier to aim for the cockpit of C-130 than it is for an F-16 pulling Gs.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 06 Sep 2018, 21:15
by skyward
The US Navy laser weapon being tested was only at 30 kW class. The true laser weapon they really want is at less 100+ kW class.

The issue with blinding laser pointing at a fighter is that it will always be on the defensive. In time it have to run away or lose air speed by doing all that high defensive maneuver and get shot down by a missile.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 06 Sep 2018, 21:30
by SpudmanWP
IIRC, Weapons that are intended to blind are against the GC.

A DIRCM can easily track a cockpit at 4km as it is designed to do the same for a much smaller & more agile target (a missile seeker).

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 06 Sep 2018, 21:41
by garrya
zero-one wrote:Well if the goal is to aim the laser on the cokpit of an aircraft, then thats extremely difficult to do, specially if your target is a highly maneuverable fighter.

It isn't, not at all. You can blind someone with much lower power than you would need to burn a piece of metal. Don't believe me? You can take a magnify glass in a sunny dayand try to burn a piece of aluminum or even plastic, see how long it takes to burn a hole through them. Whereas if you use the magnify glass to look at the sun, you will be blind immediately. Anyway since the power needed to blind someone is much lower, they can use much wider beam width for the laser, and can easily cover a circle with 1-2 meter radius, and EO/IR sensors gimbal already have no issue tracking /following air targets.

zero-one wrote: And this was from a giant shipborne laser

Calling the AN/SEQ-3 a giant shipborne laser is quite misleading, it is mostly a technology demonstrator with merely 30kW output and in the video you see it is used at sea level where the air is significantly thicker.

zero-one wrote:Now are theese blinding lasers turret based which can track highly agile targets? Great, but what if they are massive front facing laser cannons?

This isn't starwar so front facing laser cannon make no sense, laser weapon will be on gimbal.


zero-one wrote:If adversaries start fielding blinding laser weapons, that will make high maneuverability all the more necessary.
Its far easier to aim for the cockpit of C-130 than it is for an F-16 pulling Gs.

On the otherhand, something the size of C-130 will carry much more powerful laser, may be even 1/5 as powerful as YAL-1,thus make F-16 agility pointless.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 07 Sep 2018, 00:47
by knowan
Relevant for laser discussion:
Image
Image

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 07 Sep 2018, 09:30
by hornetfinn
zero-one wrote:So far the F-35 has demonstrated a kill/loss ratio of 20:1 in RedFlag which is amazing. But what if Japan wants a ratio of
144:1. So far only 1 aircraft has demonstrated those type of numbers.

The answer isn't always "lets buy more F-35s"


You have to remember the context of those numbers. Raptor has achieved those numbers partly because it was tasked almost entirely for pure air-to-air missions. F-35 was tasked for air-to-ground missions and ISR against extremely lethal IADS and likely avoided air-to-air combat whenever possible. AFAIK, Northern Edge 2007 didn't have Raptors go against IADS but rather was pretty much pure air-to-air exercise with some CAS practice.

Here is some info about that 144:1 kill ratio:
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... 22-214343/

In Alaska, the F-22 achieved an unprecedented 144:0 kill ratio in the first week of Northern Edge. "In the first week of the fight, the preponderance of engagements were beyond visual range. In the second week they got into the merge and took a couple of shots," says Lawson, pointing out that the pilots averaged less than 100h on the aircraft. The final tally was 80:1.

Northern Edge included an air-to-air mission involving a "blue" team of 24 F-15Cs, eight F-22s and two F-15Es against 40 F-16s and F/A-18s that were allowed to regenerate to produce a total "red" air force of 103 aircraft.


There was one simulated F-22 kill, in what Lawson describes as "peculiar" circumstances. A red fighter regenerated unbeknown to the blue force and the F-22 pilot, unaware the aggressor had re-entered the fight, did not attack the aircraft and instead took a shot.


F-22 might well have better kill ratio, but those numbers do not tell the whole story because the exercises were quite different and aircraft tasked differently.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 07 Sep 2018, 13:27
by element1loop
Frankly, I think mmm is pointing in the right direction here.

mmm wrote:F-22 never had that much range. 8t of internal fuel would have been a lot for any other tactical fighter, only if F-22 didn't weight 20t empty running on a pair of F119. Thicken the wings, retrofit the engine with an adaptive cycle one(I think the more commonly quoted range improvement is about 30%?), get more efficiency from I don't know where. Say you double the combat radius, it still can't penetrate mainland China very deep from a basing location outside strike fighter/GLCM/MRBM range. As air defense fighter with tanker support close to home though I think it is more than adequate.

I'd agree laser is another elephant in the room. I don't think a hard kill laser is gonna take MW class power. In a gloves off war hundred kW range laser can probably cook the pilot pretty well in a few short seconds. And that could happen as early as the next decade. From my complete layman perspective you need to either go fully enclosed cockpit relying on more redundant DAS sensor to fly the plane in order to be somewhat protected, or you have to go remotely piloted/semi autonomous. For those planes that have to remain manned bigger mean better ability to accommodate DEW as well as ability to adsorb such a hit.

Getting first look and first shot could be even more important, maybe something to be achieved at all cost. Should that come into conflict with traditional fighter performance I'm prepared to see old school agile fighter go.


The point of PCA is not BVR or agility fight (although it needs to be able to do both at ,east as well as F-35A and F22A, IMO), the point of PCA to use the very best multi-band stealth tech so far developed, to get in deep and maintain a presence, to kill all flyable platforms it can early in the fight, preferably before they get into the air at all.

And if you design for that combination you need a large and fast fighter-BOMBER---NOT an interceptor aircraft!

An interceptor can NOT do it. A B-21 can not do it. An F-22A can not do it. An F-35A can not do it.

What can do it is a very advanced VLO airframe than combines the best qualities and capabilities of both F-22A and F-35A, but with the range of a standoff medium-range 'bomber', with long-range standoff cruise missiles.

So what it will not be is an interceptor, or in anyway light. So the only way it can be 'agile' is to have outrageously powerful engines, even then it is IR compromised doing that.

So optimizing for stealth tactics must take priority. But given this is a jet for the first generation of laser weapons it would be a mistake to have an open cockpit. It needs to be manned and the pilot has to be laser protected.

So PCA, IMO, can not be anything like and F-22A or F-35A, it must be based on them and evolve what they bring into a large fighter that is a lot more like an F-35A than an F-22A in attack capabilities, but is must be high altitude and a very fast cruiser (not sprinter, for actual fighting it needs to be half that speed), with unheard of fuel efficiency, due very low drag within thin air. Thinner air also means less leading-edge heating and designed and innate low specific consumption for extended range.

So it's clear it must look like a large 5th-gen UCAV but still contain an enclosed pilot, with a large weapon bay and huge payload.

Lasers can only be effective if you can be detected and tracked, so VLO must take priority over agility in a trade-off, but ideally it would have both--if only to be able to reliably maintain a minimum radius to any detected bandits.

So forget about B-21s, or YF-23s or F-22As or F-35As, it needs a new jet that is based on those, but will not be much like any of them, but is likely to have the B-21 stealth, and the F-35A systems.

The point is to eliminate enemy air threats in the opening hours and days of major conventional war, and I really don't think for one second that BVR is the place to be doing that, and not what the PCA design compromises should embody or aim for. And BVR is not what PCAs pilot needs to be doing while deep penetrating. It will be seeding with fire and forget VLO standoff weapons as it goes in, and out. BVR is just a waste of time. You can do more damage via not being seen at all, and going too fast to be effectively intercepted anyway.

2c

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 07 Sep 2018, 13:55
by sferrin
element1loop wrote:The point is to eliminate enemy air threats in the opening hours and days of major conventional war, and I really don't think for one second that BVR is the place to be doing that, and not what the PCA design compromises should embody or aim for. And BVR is not what PCAs pilot needs to be doing while deep penetrating. It will be seeding with fire and forget VLO standoff weapons as it goes in, and out. BVR is just a waste of time. You can do more damage via not being seen at all, and going too fast to be effectively intercepted anyway.

2c


How are you going to kill those that get in the air if not BVR? PCA won't be getting into furballs or gunning down the other guy with a cannon. :?:

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 07 Sep 2018, 16:42
by element1loop
I've answered that in the first sentence, but the auto-correct has altered the text on me (a new PC). It should have read:

The point of PCA is not BVR or agility fight (although it needs to be able to do both, at least as well as F-35A and F22A, IMO)


Yes, you could waste time and use fuel engaging in BVR, or you could use your superior advanced stealth tech, tactics, and speed and altitude advantages to side step their swing, and run rings around them (literally), while still releasing weapons as you go, then leave them to go back to a wrecked air base, and be wiped out on the ground with the next wave of penetrating counter-air strikes.

And if they actually manage to track and intercept, then take them out with BVR missile, as per the usual 5th-gen methods. If you miss, who cares, you're probably too fast to intercept or catch with a missile, and the guy behind you, or else beside you, can fire a HOBS BVR weapon at them and get on with launching precision standoff weapons, to eliminate those air threats.

With advanced VLO, EA and heavy fighter DIRCM can they even get a missile to it? And the PCA is to be designed from the beginning for rapid and maximum adaptability to deal with whatever tactic is tried to stop them, or else to take on any extended requirements, including BVR.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 07 Sep 2018, 20:47
by disconnectedradical
zero-one wrote:The USAF has not given any official statements yet on what PCA will look like, so you wont find them saying it will or will not be bassed in a B-21 airframe.

What I specifically said was, I think a Hybrid F-22/35 design would be better than the "B-21 bassed proposals".
Proposals made by the aviation community, both in the manufacturing sector and authors of articles like the one I posted.


First, PCA requirement is still being made by USAF, who knows what kind of airframe it will have. It might be B-21 based or not. But you keep possibility of B-21 based airframe to justify F-22 hybrid based just on how you think air combat should be done. Which seems like very specific and narrow view.

Second, you are obsessed with idea that only way to do F-22 job is to try to replicate it. If entirely different method of achieving air dominance don't require F-22 performance, so what? Right now we don't know that, so it can go either way, but only looking at F-22 as the right answer is backwards thinking. Doesn't matter how unappealing it is to you, as long as it works.

zero-one wrote:The YF-23 was a "little faster" I'll give you that. Publicly released supercruise values peg the YF-23 at Mach 1.6 while the YF-22 was at Mach 1.58. They later claimed that they went above 1.6. Now that could be mach 1.8 which would be impressive or it could also be Mach 1.65 which is technically not lying in their part.


YF-23 area ruling and probably fineness is MUCH better than YF-22. Look how wing and fuselage blend on YF-23. If you don't know how that matters in supersonic flight then you don't know aerodynamics. F-22 area ruling and fineness ratio improved from YF-22 but also has less fuel probably because rear fuselage was tighter.

zero-one wrote:What I'm saying is a PCA bassed B-21 isn't a good choice. If they somehow make your version of the PCA, which by now I think is everything the Raptor is just with longer range, then great.

But if its gona be what authors described as a minature B-21, tailess flying wing which is more like an interceptor. Then I think the US needs to fund another fighter program a new LWF program to handle close range engagements.

I think the Hybrid will also have better range than the F-22. Think about it, the F-35 is much smaller than the F-22 but somhow managed to carry more sensors, computers and fuel. How?

I think its because the computer boxes are much smaller in the F-35 giving it more space for fuel. Now use those computers or maybe even smaller versions on an F-22 airframe and its not impossible to think you can fit 20,000 lbs or more.

YF-120 was a variable cycle engine that could fit on the YF-22, so its not impossible to make ADVENT as small as that.

ADVENT + More fuel = RANGE


What you're saying is, possible B-21 PCA isn't good choice (according to how you view air combat). Not to mention that USAF is still making PCA requirements and B-21 based proposal is not official or even only one. To you this means F-22 hybrid is the answer. Looks like what you're trying to do is not "how to best achieve air dominance in after 2030" but "how to justify F-22 based airframe". F-22 is great airframe no doubt but with current tech we can do much better. Restraining yourself to that airframe just holds you back.

F-35 carry more fuel than F-22 because fuselage is much chunkier and is not designed with high fineness ratio like F-22. USAF study on F-22 restart show just to remake existing F-22 will only deliver aircraft in 2025. If you engineer new sensors and make structure changes and new wings it will only delay it more and put it in 2030s. Better to invest in much better PCA if F-22 hybrid comes this late.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 07 Sep 2018, 23:39
by sferrin
element1loop wrote:I've answered that in the first sentence, but the auto-correct has altered the text on me (a new PC). It should have read:

The point of PCA is not BVR or agility fight (although it needs to be able to do both, at least as well as F-35A and F22A, IMO)


Yes, you could waste time and use fuel engaging in BVR, or you could use your superior advanced stealth tech, tactics, and speed and altitude advantages to side step their swing, and run rings around them (literally), while still releasing weapons as you go, then leave them to go back to a wrecked air base, and be wiped out on the ground with the next wave of penetrating counter-air strikes.

And if they actually manage to track and intercept, then take them out with BVR missile, as per the usual 5th-gen methods. If you miss, who cares, you're probably too fast to intercept or catch with a missile, and the guy behind you, or else beside you, can fire a HOBS BVR weapon at them and get on with launching precision standoff weapons, to eliminate those air threats.

With advanced VLO, EA and heavy fighter DIRCM can they even get a missile to it? And the PCA is to be designed from the beginning for rapid and maximum adaptability to deal with whatever tactic is tried to stop them, or else to take on any extended requirements, including BVR.


Ideally, you'd like to bomb them on the ground, sure, but that's always been the strategy, since WWII. How often has the other guy been unable to get off the ground from day 1 though?

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 08 Sep 2018, 00:33
by element1loop
There hasn't been VLO since WWII though and F-117A showed what you can do when you don't bother with BVR and just use the best stealth you have to go after the IADS unmolested instead. So who cares if they make it into the air? Sadam's airforce made it into the air and it changed nothing.

Note that I'm not saying they would not launch BVR weapons if necessary during a mission, just that they won't go looking for the BVR engagement, or hang about to prosecute it. Mostly it's to fire to make the other guy go defensive, as you blow past and allow those behind to take the kill-shot if your weapon misses (it would have evolved F-35A sensors and comms so exploit all tactical opportunities within the intended core PCA role and tactics). The right tactics will settle it in your favor anyway. So stick to the role and mission which is to reduce the risk for everything else, so that ships and other platforms and systems can get closer with their shorter-range tactical platforms, like F-35s with standoff weapons, to pour on their weight earlier, as well. So going after BVR simply wastes time and delays that, giving the other guy an opportunity to do something effective within the longer window available.

If the PCA aircraft is a balanced adaptive design (as intended) it can do it all and remain effective for decades while penetrating. As I see it the engines will mature in service and during the build, per normal, giving even more agility as it ages to MLU engine upgrade, if that's required to lift agility, and I expect it will be desirable to do so, at that point.

But if the initial emphasis is on the VLO, speed and range, plus EA and DIRCM, then that combo will be all it needs to suppress and destroy the other guy's airforce to prevent it getting on the front-foot attacking bases and ships. Pouring it on early, and deep, is the best strategy to get total air dominance fast against a large force with a large defended terrain and air space.

Whereas BVR will not win the battle or the war, so focus the PCA design on what will win the battle and the war. BVR is not where you're going to win, or do much that's game-changing fast. And BVR is also not what the OPFOR needs to be doing to win either, they need to attack, and PCA can take that capability away fast. They want to stop you, so don't let them via engaging them in BVR and them get a mission-kill or even a lucky hard-kill and morale booster. Use the stealth advantage to maximum so they both fail to effectively attack your force and fail (miserably) to defend (effectively) against PCA strikes. That provides the most rapid effects both kinetic and non-kinetic to lever an early win in the air battle.

Once PCA has them pinned, early, and is rapidly degrading their ability to get into the air with an effective airforce due to ignoring that early BVR fight deep inside their heartland, the true bombers can do their thing as the other platforms also come into the fight from the margins.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 08 Sep 2018, 09:12
by zero-one
disconnectedradical wrote:What you're saying is, possible B-21 PCA isn't good choice (according to how you view air combat). Not to mention that USAF is still making PCA requirements and B-21 based proposal is not official or even only one. To you this means F-22 hybrid is the answer.


Yes and no.

1. Having a non maneuverable fighter which needs to rely on stand off weapons is not a good choice not only for me but also according to the USAF and Lockheed. I've posted their statements twice already. Please feel free to read back just a few post.

2. No I don't think the F-22 Hybrid is the only answer. All I'm saying is that its a better one than a miniature B-21 bassed proposal which will forgo traditional Fighter characteristics. I am well aware that all of these are just proposals and nothing is final yet.

3.Its conflicting how you oppose the proposal for a Hybrid F-22/35 design by stating cost as a major problem. But then your would like to propose a hypothetical clean sheet design. Wouldn't cost be an even bigger issue for that? I find it hard to believe that a clean sheet would somehow be cheaper than a upgraded F-22/35. A miniature B-21 based program may even be cheaper.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 08 Sep 2018, 09:46
by zero-one
garrya wrote:On the otherhand, something the size of C-130 will carry much more powerful laser, may be even 1/5 as powerful as YAL-1,thus make F-16 agility pointless.


Thats not the opinion of Lockheed and the USAF tho. Not to mentions aerial warfare experts from Japan, S.Korea, Turkey, China, India and Russia who seem to be designing highly maneuverable fighters in their current Next Gen fighter programs.

Even the U.K's Tempest seem to offer good kinematics although I'm skeptical as the early mock up shows an X-32 style wing with no Canards. Albeit it was made clear that this was not the final design yet.

I'd have to believe F-35 test pilot Tom Morganfeld when he said that. "Maneuverability will always be relevant for a fighter. HOBS/HMCS can decrease the relevance to a degree but a fighter should always be able to turn and point its nose."

The F-35 is the aircraft that needs to rely the least on maneuverability because it can lock on to anything around it from great distances. But here's the test pilot stating otherwise.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 08 Sep 2018, 14:10
by marsavian
Whereas I firmly believe that Japan will action this hybrid as they wanted the F-22 the first time around the USAF will not partake as it would take future funds from F-35/PCA which is a no-no. Even though relatively there are few F-22s, backed up by AESA F-15/F-16/F-35 there is enough all round firepower/kinematics and VLO to get any interception/air superiority job done.

As for the PCA it's not going to be a standalone weapon as primarily its job will be to escort B-21s on long range missions as F-22/F-35 can do any shorter range work. As such it will be an evolved ATF concept. It will have low drag so it can supercruise close to Mach 2 and be fuel-efficient, it will have a big delta wing so it can carry at least 40 klb fuel while having low wing loading and it can afford to be relatively heavy as it will have around 100 klb afterburning thrust powering it. By virtue of these characteristics it will be able to dogfight if it has to but primarily it will be a long range VLO BVR stalker. Of course with big and long internal weapons bays it can carry ground ordinance but that will not be its main function.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 08 Sep 2018, 18:58
by mmm
Well nothing I said was originally mine. If anyone's feeling open minded enough here's some interesting read, maybe you already have: https://csbaonline.org/research/publica ... uperiority

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 09 Sep 2018, 04:13
by element1loop
I read that document in 2015 as did probably everyone in here, and I didn't agree with Stillion's premise that agility and high-performance were less important in future, due to VLO. I think that's quite wrong because VLO non-observability can and will fail from time to time in combat due to poor application of possible tactics or else a poor decision. Let alone things like incremental damage from say a laser exposure, etc.

In my view VLO BVR requires the same or even better agility and acceleration as fur-ball fighting (see sig-line equation).

I also pointed out a few pages back that if you want practical extended-range within a tactical PCA in an aircraft with as few as one POB then you need a very high cruise speed to dramatically reduce the mission's duration. Or else the strike tempo and presence will not be sustained or maintained.

And PCA and planned force-structure does not appear to embrace his 'Mothership' A2A concepts. The current disposable drone/cruise/decoy/EA option seems more likely to continue as that Mothership penetration architecture is only useful, or applies to a relatively short initial period of the attack.

Then what do you do with it?

Hence PCA is to be designed with "maximized tactical adaptability and flexibility".

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 09 Sep 2018, 08:36
by zero-one
mmm wrote:Well nothing I said was originally mine. If anyone's feeling open minded enough here's some interesting read, maybe you already have: https://csbaonline.org/research/publica ... uperiority


I also have some disagreements with the study.

While it is true that air combat trends are moving more towards BVR kills. The study failed to mention that Pk of BVR missiles are always not as high as initially expected.

I believe it was already discussed here in depth numerous times. The Pk of the Sparrow in test was around 80%. But in actual combat in Vietnam it was initially just 11%. Now this improved dramatically after the introduction of top gun and proper maintenance procedures. But in Desert Storm, with all the lessons from Vietnam being applied, the Pk of late model sparrows was still around the 50% mark.

Even the Aim-120 currently has a Pk of around 60% if I'm not mistaken and some of those are WVR. In fact I think around half are WVR if I remember correctly. The last kill by the SuperHornet was definitely. I tried to look for actual links to those discussions. but this is all i found: viewtopic.php?f=38&t=27322

It looks like the 10 kills out of 17 shots from the AMRAAM is accepted as fact. Some were WVR. so thats a Pk of 58%. Plus the one successful hit from the SHornet recently so that 11 out of 18 (61%)

Now consider the fact that we have always heavily outnumbered the opponent in the air and that these were not against near peer adversaries with top end EW countermeasures.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 10 Sep 2018, 01:12
by knowan
zero-one wrote:
mmm wrote:Well nothing I said was originally mine. If anyone's feeling open minded enough here's some interesting read, maybe you already have: https://csbaonline.org/research/publica ... uperiority


I also have some disagreements with the study.

While it is true that air combat trends are moving more towards BVR kills. The study failed to mention that Pk of BVR missiles are always not as high as initially expected.

I believe it was already discussed here in depth numerous times. The Pk of the Sparrow in test was around 80%. But in actual combat in Vietnam it was initially just 11%. Now this improved dramatically after the introduction of top gun and proper maintenance procedures. But in Desert Storm, with all the lessons from Vietnam being applied, the Pk of late model sparrows was still around the 50% mark.

Even the Aim-120 currently has a Pk of around 60% if I'm not mistaken and some of those are WVR. In fact I think around half are WVR if I remember correctly. The last kill by the SuperHornet was definitely. I tried to look for actual links to those discussions. but this is all i found: viewtopic.php?f=38&t=27322

It looks like the 10 kills out of 17 shots from the AMRAAM is accepted as fact. Some were WVR. so thats a Pk of 58%. Plus the one successful hit from the SHornet recently so that 11 out of 18 (61%)

Now consider the fact that we have always heavily outnumbered the opponent in the air and that these were not against near peer adversaries with top end EW countermeasures.


Calculating Pk from real combat results frequently fails to account for several factors.

Eg, most of the time it is calculated from the number of aircraft shot down versus the number of missiles fired, when in reality multiple missiles being fired at the same target was common with the AIM-7. Usually the first missile would fireball the target, then the second missile would hit the fireball; both missiles were hits, but only one would be counted under kill counting.
For the AIM-7 in the Gulf War, 44 missiles were fired for about 24 kills, which incorrectly results in a 54.54% Pk. In reality, 30 missiles hit, for a 68.18% Pk.

Further, at least some missiles are fired outside their engagement envelope. Those missiles were never going to hit, so aren't representative of what the missile is capable of.

In other words, when missiles are plentiful, missile Pk appears to be much lower than is realistic.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 10 Sep 2018, 01:39
by Corsair1963
zero-one wrote:
mixelflick wrote:But we've been told the F-35 will be the best fighter in the sky, bar the Raptor. So XYZ country should just order more F-35's.
..


Well I beleive that. But heres what I think. The reason why Japan is so intrested in a dedicated A-A fighter in the F-22s class is not because they are not confident in the F-35.

It is because they want to acheive a certain kill/loss ratio if a war with China will occur.
They know they'll be outnumbered in the air.

So far the F-35 has demonstrated a kill/loss ratio of 20:1 in RedFlag which is amazing. But what if Japan wants a ratio of
144:1. So far only 1 aircraft has demonstrated those type of numbers.

The answer isn't always "lets buy more F-35s"


Your comparing Apples and Oranges. You think the F-15 Eagle had a kill ratio of 144 to 1 at Red Flag??? :doh:

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 10 Sep 2018, 02:20
by wrightwing
zero-one wrote:



While it is true that air combat trends are moving more towards BVR kills. The study failed to mention that Pk of BVR missiles are always not as high as initially expected.

I believe it was already discussed here in depth numerous times. The Pk of the Sparrow in test was around 80%. But in actual combat in Vietnam it was initially just 11%. Now this improved dramatically after the introduction of top gun and proper maintenance procedures. But in Desert Storm, with all the lessons from Vietnam being applied, the Pk of late model sparrows was still around the 50% mark.

Even the Aim-120 currently has a Pk of around 60% if I'm not mistaken and some of those are WVR. In fact I think around half are WVR if I remember correctly. The last kill by the SuperHornet was definitely. I tried to look for actual links to those discussions. but this is all i found: viewtopic.php?f=38&t=27322

It looks like the 10 kills out of 17 shots from the AMRAAM is accepted as fact. Some were WVR. so thats a Pk of 58%. Plus the one successful hit from the SHornet recently so that 11 out of 18 (61%)

Now consider the fact that we have always heavily outnumbered the opponent in the air and that these were not against near peer adversaries with top end EW countermeasures.


One thing to bear in mind is that the Pk numbers listed aren't representative of the likelihood of a kill. They're the average of the number of missiles fired per kill. Put differently, if you fire 2 missiles at a target, that both pass within the lethal radius, that results in a 50% Pk, even though both missiles achieved a 100% hit rate. It's also important to bear in mind that missiles launched from the F-22/35 will have higher Pk than those fired from 4th generation aircraft, due to the element of surprise, and more advantageous launch conditions within the NEZ.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 10 Sep 2018, 02:24
by wrightwing
zero-one wrote:
mixelflick wrote:But we've been told the F-35 will be the best fighter in the sky, bar the Raptor. So XYZ country should just order more F-35's.
..


Well I beleive that. But heres what I think. The reason why Japan is so intrested in a dedicated A-A fighter in the F-22s class is not because they are not confident in the F-35.

It is because they want to acheive a certain kill/loss ratio if a war with China will occur.
They know they'll be outnumbered in the air.

So far the F-35 has demonstrated a kill/loss ratio of 20:1 in RedFlag which is amazing. But what if Japan wants a ratio of
144:1. So far only 1 aircraft has demonstrated those type of numbers.

The answer isn't always "lets buy more F-35s"


That >20:1 kill ratio was based upon the 145:7 results in Red Flag 17-1. Those 7 losses were from respawned aggressor aircraft, that were already WVR when respawned. Otherwise, the kill ratio might have been 152:0. There have been plenty of exercises, with no losses.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 10 Sep 2018, 08:29
by zero-one
wrightwing wrote:That >20:1 kill ratio was based upon the 145:7 results in Red Flag 17-1. Those 7 losses were from respawned aggressor aircraft, that were already WVR when respawned. Otherwise, the kill ratio might have been 152:0. There have been plenty of exercises, with no losses.


They didn't say that every single one of the kills were from those re-spawned aircraft.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 10 Sep 2018, 09:47
by hornetfinn
zero-one wrote:
wrightwing wrote:That >20:1 kill ratio was based upon the 145:7 results in Red Flag 17-1. Those 7 losses were from respawned aggressor aircraft, that were already WVR when respawned. Otherwise, the kill ratio might have been 152:0. There have been plenty of exercises, with no losses.


They didn't say that every single one of the kills were from those re-spawned aircraft.


Nor did they say that it was Red Force aircraft that brought down the F-35s. They might have been shot down by the numerous advanced SAM systems in the area.

It's also not very productive to compare simple kill ratios as the exercises were very different and the aircraft had different missions and capabilities.

download/file.php?id=24352

“There are some threats outthere that make it through because of the sheer numbers and the advanced missiles they’re shooting at us, so we’ve had one or two losses so far in our training,” said Lt Col Watkins. “Right now, we’re counting a 15-to-1 kill ratio for aggressors to F-35s.”

He was quick to put the figure in context: “The F-35 is currently limited to an internal missile load-out so we’re not carrying as many missiles as the F-22 and we’re also designed for the air-to-ground mission. “We’re doing very, very well but the kill ratio is not something that’s going to shock anybody; we’re not an air-to-air player.”


So F-35s carrying bombs and two AMRAAMs and tasked for air-to-ground missions while facing extremely deadly IADS is getting almost as good kill ratio as F-22s carrying 8 missiles in pure air-to-air missions... Not bad... :P

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 10 Sep 2018, 11:40
by zero-one
Well the ratio thing is just my best interpretation of what is happening.

Its wayyyy better than some

Procurement moves by the US (both F-22s and 6th Gen’ plans), Japan (with the F-3) and Turkey with the TF-X show that those who can afford an alternative don’t consider the F-35 a viable air superiority platform. This flies in the face of public announcements by Lockheed Martin, USAF and F-35 pilots regarding the aircraft’s effectiveness in the role, but it is hard to read the facts in any other way.

https://hushkit.net/2018/07/30/project- ... r-project/

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 10 Sep 2018, 12:14
by hornetfinn
It remains to be seen if TF-X or F-3 are anything more than national technology development programs. I haven''t seen really much that suggest that they are being developed because F-35 was somehow deficient in air-to-air role. Both seems to be developed to improve national technological capabilties independent from other countries. Japan developed their own fighter jets in F-1 and F-2 even though comparable or better aircraft were available at lower cost. Turkey has all kinds of ambitions to become more of a regional power and larger player in military business. They are developing their own attack helicopters, trainer aircraft, satellites etc. Developing "own" fighter jet as well as being in F-35 program is going to improve their technological capabilities for sure if they can afford it.

Besides, even USA decided to discontinue F-22 program partly because of F-35. Maybe F-35 is just so good in air-to-air role that more F-22 is unnecessary.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 10 Sep 2018, 12:41
by popcorn
hornetfinn wrote:It remains to be seen if TF-X or F-3 are anything more than national technology development programs. I haven''t seen really much that suggest that they are being developed because F-35 was somehow deficient in air-to-air role. Both seems to be developed to improve national technological capabilties independent from other countries. Japan developed their own fighter jets in F-1 and F-2 even though comparable or better aircraft were available at lower cost. Turkey has all kinds of ambitions to become more of a regional power and larger player in military business. They are developing their own attack helicopters, trainer aircraft, satellites etc. Developing "own" fighter jet as well as being in F-35 program is going to improve their technological capabilities for sure if they can afford it.

Besides, even USA decided to discontinue F-22 program partly because of F-35. Maybe F-35 is just good in air-to-air role that more F-22 is unnecessary.

Pretty much concur with this. The F-35 brings more bang for the buck and will be a ubiquitous force in shaping and dominating the NCW battlespace than a 'silver bullet' force of Raptors.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 10 Sep 2018, 15:32
by element1loop
popcorn wrote:
hornetfinn wrote:It remains to be seen if TF-X or F-3 are anything more than national technology development programs. I haven''t seen really much that suggest that they are being developed because F-35 was somehow deficient in air-to-air role. Both seems to be developed to improve national technological capabilties independent from other countries. Japan developed their own fighter jets in F-1 and F-2 even though comparable or better aircraft were available at lower cost. Turkey has all kinds of ambitions to become more of a regional power and larger player in military business. They are developing their own attack helicopters, trainer aircraft, satellites etc. Developing "own" fighter jet as well as being in F-35 program is going to improve their technological capabilities for sure if they can afford it.

Besides, even USA decided to discontinue F-22 program partly because of F-35. Maybe F-35 is just good in air-to-air role that more F-22 is unnecessary.

Pretty much concur with this. The F-35 brings more bang for the buck and will be a ubiquitous force in shaping and dominating the NCW battlespace than a 'silver bullet' force of Raptors.


I agree with that type of view.

What would be more valuable is a force of evolved F-35 and PCA if you really want to tear into a large conventional force fast. More F-22A just doesn't bring what's going to get it done sooner. PCA and F-35 can kick down all doors and cover the bombers to IPs. And if enough PCA do their assigned role quickly you won't even need F-22A around, as PCA Counter-Air attacks will wrap BVR fighters up via other means. And even if F-22As were there they still won't actually solve the A2A problem, via slammer. It will always be the PCA that puts the F-22 out of the BVR business in a battle, not the F-22A that does that itself, as PCA will close down IADS and airfields plus kill fighters.

So someone will say the F-22A can drop bombs too. then what's the point of having dedicated F-22A A2A fighters on Day-1 then? No, F-22A are too small in numbers to diversify out of A2A, they will only carry A2A weapons within a major air battle. But it's all moot anyway, as F-22A are not going to cut it on range as a penetrator or cover for PCA.

At least the F-35 has real modification and development potential to build in a regionally meaningful range and speed extension for operations across the Indo-Pac geography--and give it reach, sans over exposing the tankers. Exposing tankers is out--can't do that.

So PCA is the only thing that can get in the early deep-penetration attacks to kill the air threat. An evolved speed and range-extended F-35 will perfectly complement PCA capabilities closer to the margin of deep-strike reach. PCA and F-35 will really alter the outcome and the F-22A won't.

F-22A would be good for killing vLO leakers attempting to attack allied forces and forward protection of key support aircraft.

Bottom line is, this is no longer the traditional 4th-gen Hi-Lo mix situation. That is more 4th-gen thinking. The F-35 doesn't need an F-22A to cover it while it attacks. F-35 is not going to be oblivious or caught unawares by approaching fighters, plus it is VLO in X-band and thermal.

F-35 can provide for its own high-cover, especially with expanded speed, altitude and range envelope.

Better bang for the buck is right.

PCA will be a much better bang for the buck too.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 10 Sep 2018, 15:51
by zero-one
But we don't even know what PCA will be. No requirements yet.

Right now PCA is what you imagine it to be. So its easy to say it will be a much better bang for the buck because you can fit it to any theoretical engagement scenario. Its everything you want, it can be Star ship.

So the question is. Whats your PCA? There are a few proposals out there. you can choose one of those or do you have something else in mind?

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 10 Sep 2018, 16:06
by element1loop
zero-one wrote:But we don't even know what PCA will be. No requirements yet.

Right now PCA is what you imagine it to be. So its easy to say it will be a much better bang for the buck because you can fit it to any theoretical engagement scenario. Its everything you want, it can be Star ship.

So the question is. Whats your PCA? There are a few proposals out there. you can choose one of those or do you have something else in mind?


That was already discussed at length within the PCA thread, where I put my own view, and it was broadly in agreement with what others saw as the key features it will have, based on what has actually been said about PCA's role and intent, plus its determining characteristics, capabilities and maximized adaptability in tactics and roles. Drag the thread back to the top if you want to read it.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 10 Sep 2018, 16:30
by zero-one
Exactly. PCA will always be perfect for you because it is everything you imagined it to be. It will fit all your conceived scenarios. But that isn't necessarily what PCA will be.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 10 Sep 2018, 19:25
by wrightwing
Just speaking in general terms, the PCA will have a much longer combat radius, and reduced signature from current 5th generation aircraft. It will likely have a much larger magazine capacity, whatever AAMs happen to be in service at that time. It's likely to have similar kinematic performance to F-22/35s. It'll have far more bandwidth for networking, as well as EA/EW. There'll be a lot more AI, to simplify pilot workload.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 11 Sep 2018, 02:57
by element1loop
zero-one wrote:Exactly. PCA will always be perfect for you because it is everything you imagined it to be. It will fit all your conceived scenarios. But that isn't necessarily what PCA will be.


No, not "Exactly".

You seem to want to pretend that nothing at all has been said about PCA to date. Not so. But if you won't bother to look at what's been said in media by 'officials', and orient your statements around that about the PCA to be developed, then you're just in denial about its intent, role and design emphasis.

I've been strictly sticking to what PCA's intended to be--a deep penetrating jet for counter-air.

And that sure isn't going to be a rebuilt F-22A, that much is clear if that's what you were dreaming for, because that jet can't do what the PCA is intended to do. Move on.

And "Counter-Air" does not mean A2A fighting (though it can and will include some of that) if that's what you're thinking. Offensive counter-air is what the Israelis did during the 6-day war. Today it means degrading the IADS and Airforce infrastructure and systems until those forces can't fight or defend in any effective ways to get kills or prosecute attacks. In short it means you need the structure and platforms to ensure your forces won't be hit during a high-end 2035 Joint battle.

It's already been said during 2017 that PCA must emphasize the most advanced multiband VLO tech available (which will be lessons learned from F-35 and B-21 development), and the systems derived from F-35 and B-21, implying stealth attack and remaining non-trackable and non-targeted whilst doing it, is clearly one of the primary requirements and a very high priority. Deep penetration and sustained loitering capability was also emphasized as desirable. Which implies regional range (and good tanker standoff) is required. And very high speed and fuel efficiency will be necessary, and that all implies fast high-altitude transit and attack. Given geography of the Indo-Pac, and the scale and strategic depth of Russia and China, VLO standoff weapons are also going to be necessary, to extend range and weapon coverage footprint, of each attacking PCA aircraft.

The penetrating LO plainly indicates regional range deep-penetrating stealthy Offensive-Counter-Air is the intended role of the jet that's to be defined and developed.

It's also been indicated that maximizing its tactical adaptability is also a high priority, i.e. it will not just be a rarefied specialized single-purpose design, like an interceptor, or a pure A2A specialist, like the F-22A.

Hence it will necessarily be much more like a large and very fast high-flying F-35 type capability, with a large internal weapon bay.

Plus it will need to account of the likely introduction of light-speed defensive directed-energy weapons while in service. Meaning any sensor track on it could result in a hit within a few seconds, not within minutes, as per heavy SAM missile of BVR weapon.

There's nothing inconsistent with that intent and implications within what I've said, given statements already in the public domain about the basic PCA intent and implied REQUIREMENTS. They may not be formally stated defined requirements though we're hardly unaware of what they'll involve, and of the best design options, solutions, tactics, systems and weapons available for meeting that challenge to achieve its intended role of stopping the other guy's IADS and airforce from being able to defend, or else to make attacks, or to survive--anywhere.

If you don't wish to participate in a discussion if it doesn't involve the F-22A as the hero, blasting baddies out the air with its gun, well that's OK too. :mrgreen:

I keeeed!

But seriously the F-22A build is over. :wink:

Offensive counter air

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Offensive Counter-Air (OCA) is a military term for the suppression of an enemy's military air power, primarily through ground attacks targeting enemy air bases, disabling or destroying parked aircraft, runways, fuel facilities, hangars, air traffic control facilities and other aviation infrastructure.

Air-to-air operations conducted by fighter aircraft with the objective of clearing an airspace of enemy fighters, known as combat air patrols, can also be offensive counter-air missions, but they are seen as a comparatively slow and expensive way of achieving the final objective - air superiority.[1] Ground munitions like bombs are typically less expensive than more sophisticated air-to-air munitions, and a single ground munition can destroy or disable multiple aircraft in a very short time, whereas aircraft already flying must typically be shot down one at a time. Enemy aircraft already flying also represent an imminent threat as they can usually fire back, and therefore destroying them before they can take off minimizes the risk to friendly aircraft.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Offensive_counter_air


... Just so we all understand what PCA is intended to actually do with its task and broadband VLO. No, the 'slow' offensive-counter-air via BVR is not what anyone will want in a high-end shooting-war. I think it was 'Lurp' who highlighted recently that in Desert Storm effective counter-air was considered effective only if it resulted in zero losses of US and Allied forces from enemy aircraft. For that reason air-superiority is not the aim, air-dominance necessarily is, and you get that via preventing the OPFOR from flying an effective airforce in the first place. You can't get that any time soon via emphasizing BVR, or prosecuting A2A to win a mid-21st century JOINT conventional war.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 11 Sep 2018, 05:10
by Corsair1963
Honestly, the F-22 and F-35 will have to mature considerably more. Before we can honestly predict what will be required of future 6th Generation Types.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 11 Sep 2018, 06:39
by element1loop
PCA is not '6th-gen', some of the early public discussions of the PCA concept said the discussion of a 'generational' paradigm was "unhelpful" in determining what PCA will require in order to get its job done in the best way. Discussion of the jet in the context of a generational template or stereotype was discounted and discouraged. Which makes sense.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 11 Sep 2018, 06:45
by popcorn
One thing we do know about PCA is that it will not use the next gen adaptive triple-stream engine being developed under AETP. So why is this the case? Obviously they see PCA requiring levels of performance (eg. range, altitude, speed, power generation , etc.) exceeding what AETP can provide. Maybe one of these days we'll get an idea of this new engine's characteristics that will clue us as to PCA's general capabilities. Won't be holding my breath though....

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 11 Sep 2018, 06:54
by element1loop
I realize it's supposed to be adaptably better everywhere, but at a guess very high-altitude fast cruise optimization may not be its strongest suit.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 11 Sep 2018, 07:19
by disconnectedradical
zero-one wrote:Yes and no.

1. Having a non maneuverable fighter which needs to rely on stand off weapons is not a good choice not only for me but also according to the USAF and Lockheed. I've posted their statements twice already. Please feel free to read back just a few post.


Why do you say PCA will be non maneuverable? PCA need much more stealth and range than F-22. To get high speed and good maneuverability is not something you can do with F-22 airframe, you need clean sheet design.

zero-one wrote:Its conflicting how you oppose the proposal for a Hybrid F-22/35 design by stating cost as a major problem. But then your would like to propose a hypothetical clean sheet design. Wouldn't cost be an even bigger issue for that? I find it hard to believe that a clean sheet would somehow be cheaper than a upgraded F-22/35. A miniature B-21 based program may even be cheaper.


PCA will be more expensive than this F-22 based hybrid because it needs to me MUCH better. Unless you think F-22 hybrid can somehow take place of PCA? That's ridiculous. It seem like you keep trying to create scenarios to make F-22 look like the best answer. Texas sharpshooter fallacy as they say.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 11 Sep 2018, 07:21
by popcorn
Anyone's guess really at this juncture..hypersonic ? Who knows.....

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 11 Sep 2018, 07:24
by Corsair1963
element1loop wrote:PCA is not '6th-gen', some of the early public discussions of the PCA concept said the discussion of a 'generational' paradigm was "unhelpful" in determining what PCA will require in order to get its job done in the best way. Discussion of the jet in the context of a generational template or stereotype was discounted and discouraged. Which makes sense.



The Penetrating Counter Air Fighter (PCA) is a full "generation" ahead of the current F-22 and F-35. Which, are classified at 5th Generation Fighters. So, that clearly makes it a 6th Generation Fighter. Honestly, don't see that label as being "unhelpful" in any respect.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 11 Sep 2018, 09:11
by zero-one
element1loop wrote:The penetrating LO plainly indicates regional range deep-penetrating stealthy Offensive-Counter-Air is the intended role of the jet that's to be defined and developed.


Pretty much everything you said are all proposed concepts for what PCA could be. Its not necessarily what PCA will be. It is still undefined.

https://www.defensenews.com/digital-sho ... r-designs/

“When you look at — through the lens of the network — and you look at air superiority as a mission, as a family-of-systems approach, you can see why you don’t hear me talking a lot about a replacement, A for B,” Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. Dave Goldfein told Defense News in March.

Because the replacement may not be a single platform, it maybe two or three different kinds of capabilities and systems. And so as we look at air superiority in the future, ensuring that we’re advancing to stay ahead of the adversary, we’re looking at all those options.”


So by saying that PCA will be "A JET that indicates regional range deep-penetrating stealthy Offensive-Counter-Air" its clear that you already have a pre defined concept of what you think it will be. And your own definition of PCA fits every conceivable scenario you have. Hence it is perfect in every way.

I'm not saying the Hybrid is the only way. But it is more defined than any hypothetical PCA fictional super jet anyone can come up with. For all we know it can be 1 of the 3 platforms under the PCA program.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 11 Sep 2018, 09:44
by marsavian
Corsair1963 wrote:
element1loop wrote:PCA is not '6th-gen', some of the early public discussions of the PCA concept said the discussion of a 'generational' paradigm was "unhelpful" in determining what PCA will require in order to get its job done in the best way. Discussion of the jet in the context of a generational template or stereotype was discounted and discouraged. Which makes sense.


The Penetrating Counter Air Fighter (PCA) is a full "generation" ahead of the current F-22 and F-35. Which, are classified at 5th Generation Fighters. So, that clearly makes it a 6th Generation Fighter. Honestly, don't see that label as being "unhelpful" in any respect.


Generations have to be defined by well defined characteristics not chronology as no-one considers the much later Typhoon/Rafale/Gripen/Super Hornet/Su-35 as anything other than 4th generation aircraft apart from their enthusiastic salesmen and fans, add as many + as you like you are not really fooling anyone. The point about broadband stealth is that it has already been done in 5th generation, the B-2, so that is not going to be a sixth generation characteristic as it is just an evolved variation of a 5th gen theme and anyway with judicious use of RAM current tailed 5th gen aircraft don't have bad broadband stealth.

I have no doubt the PCA will probably be the best 5th gen aircraft ever created but it will be the Omega of 5th gens not the Alpha of 6th gen. 6th generation will in all likelihood be usable production hypersonic aircraft because when you have aircraft flying as fast as the missiles designed to shoot them down, or even faster, you have entered a new paradigm of air to air fighting which will require radically new tactics and weapons to counter.

Hypersonic aircraft will not make offensive stealthy attack aircraft obsolete though as you still have to be detected to be intercepted so there will be military overlap as there is now with 4th and 5th gens, the F-35 will still be a good strike aircraft in this era if not detected. 6th gen will just add a radically improved performance profile to an aircraft characteristics, in this case kinematic if hypersonic.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 12 Sep 2018, 05:22
by Corsair1963
marsavian wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:
element1loop wrote:PCA is not '6th-gen', some of the early public discussions of the PCA concept said the discussion of a 'generational' paradigm was "unhelpful" in determining what PCA will require in order to get its job done in the best way. Discussion of the jet in the context of a generational template or stereotype was discounted and discouraged. Which makes sense.


The Penetrating Counter Air Fighter (PCA) is a full "generation" ahead of the current F-22 and F-35. Which, are classified at 5th Generation Fighters. So, that clearly makes it a 6th Generation Fighter. Honestly, don't see that label as being "unhelpful" in any respect.


Generations have to be defined by well defined characteristics not chronology as no-one considers the much later Typhoon/Rafale/Gripen/Super Hornet/Su-35 as anything other than 4th generation aircraft apart from their enthusiastic salesmen and fans, add as many + as you like you are not really fooling anyone. The point about broadband stealth is that it has already been done in 5th generation, the B-2, so that is not going to be a sixth generation characteristic as it is just an evolved variation of a 5th gen theme and anyway with judicious use of RAM current tailed 5th gen aircraft don't have bad broadband stealth.

I have no doubt the PCA will probably be the best 5th gen aircraft ever created but it will be the Omega of 5th gens not the Alpha of 6th gen. 6th generation will in all likelihood be usable production hypersonic aircraft because when you have aircraft flying as fast as the missiles designed to shoot them down, or even faster, you have entered a new paradigm of air to air fighting which will require radically new tactics and weapons to counter.

Hypersonic aircraft will not make offensive stealthy attack aircraft obsolete though as you still have to be detected to be intercepted so there will be military overlap as there is now with 4th and 5th gens, the F-35 will still be a good strike aircraft in this era if not detected. 6th gen will just add a radically improved performance profile to an aircraft characteristics, in this case kinematic if hypersonic.


Please......... :doh:

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 12 Sep 2018, 06:14
by madrat
You will sortie 16 subsonic aircraft for one hypersonic aircraft.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 12 Sep 2018, 14:05
by knowan
Anti-aircraft Laser weapons will likely be around before hypersonic aircraft, and at that point their speed isn't going to make them harder to hit.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 12 Sep 2018, 16:15
by marsavian
What will be the effective range of these laser weapons and good luck on trying to achieving this effective distance with a plane twice as fast as you.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 12 Sep 2018, 16:22
by mixelflick
"To get high speed and good maneuverability is not something you can do with F-22 airframe, you need clean sheet design."

This really struck me as odd. The Raptor defines high speed and good maneuverability. Did you mean something else, vs. say the more literal translation?

I think the point here about destroying aircraft on the ground (as part of air dominance) an excellent one. Lots of people are envisioning PCA as the ultimate super-cruising, sensor packed, long range, VLO BVR killer. When you add an air to ground component, the formula changes. You'll need an even bigger airframe to carry sufficient numbers of air to air and air to ground weapons. Yet, isn't the F-35 ideally suited to the air to ground mission? There are going to be thousands of them, so one would think they'll be tasked with that mission.

And just think of the added cost, not to mention qualifying of the air to ground stuff on PCA.

In the end though, we're all just speculating. As was mentioned prior, we don't know what formal requirements the Air Force is going to issue. Tough to design an aircraft the customer hasn't set specifications for yet. I hope I live to see it, or at least the prototypes. The F-22 truncated order was hard to stomach, although it is exciting to see the F-35 come online.

There will be no hybrid however, of that much I am certain..

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 12 Sep 2018, 16:51
by zero-one
^^
Yeah I think he meat range.
Admittedly Range isn't one of the F-22's strong suits. Even though it's Combat Radius of ~500 NM is pretty respectable in the fighter community. I like the idea of having an F-22/35 Hybrid but I agree that answering the Range problem will be the biggest hurdle.

Here's what I think, if an ADVENT version of the F-119 can be made, doh wait, that already exist, albeit in prototype stage ( YF-120) and using F-35 avionics which take up far less space than than the current F-22 hardware, I believe the F-22 can be made to carry substantially more fuel. ADVENT alone is said to increase range by 25 - 30% so we're looking at a combat radius of around 700 NM. With more Fuel maybe we can punch up to 800 NM.

Yes I know its not enough for the Pacific Theater. As I posted many times above, both LM and the USAF think that fighter combat maneuverability still has it's place in the future network centric battlefield. My problem is I don't believe you can combine Extreme Bomber class range with Extreme fighter class maneuverability.

You will still need Tankers, so the goal shouldn't be to eliminate the need for tankers but simply to minimize the reliance on tankers.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 12 Sep 2018, 17:59
by disconnectedradical
Yes I mean range. Combine long range with high speed and maneuverability will need clean sheet design. Something with a lot more fuel in the design. ADVENT itself isn’t enough to make up for the lack of range. There’s also problem of small weapon bay. With F-22 there is not much space left.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 13 Sep 2018, 01:27
by zerion
Well the AF isn’t interested

Air Force not considering new F-15 or hybrid F-22/F-35, top civilian says

https://www.defensenews.com/digital-sho ... lian-says/

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 13 Sep 2018, 02:57
by weasel1962
zerion wrote:Well the AF isn’t interested

Air Force not considering new F-15 or hybrid F-22/F-35, top civilian says

https://www.defensenews.com/digital-sho ... lian-says/


The key words are "at the current moment". Where PCA is concerned, its going to be a long time before it happens.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 13 Sep 2018, 03:52
by element1loop
zero-one wrote:^^
Yeah I think he meat range.
Admittedly Range isn't one of the F-22's strong suits. Even though it's Combat Radius of ~500 NM is pretty respectable in the fighter community. I like the idea of having an F-22/35 Hybrid but I agree that answering the Range problem will be the biggest hurdle.

Here's what I think, if an ADVENT version of the F-119 can be made, doh wait, that already exist, albeit in prototype stage ( YF-120) and using F-35 avionics which take up far less space than than the current F-22 hardware, I believe the F-22 can be made to carry substantially more fuel. ADVENT alone is said to increase range by 25 - 30% so we're looking at a combat radius of around 700 NM. With more Fuel maybe we can punch up to 800 NM.

Yes I know its not enough for the Pacific Theater. As I posted many times above, both LM and the USAF think that fighter combat maneuverability still has it's place in the future network centric battlefield. My problem is I don't believe you can combine Extreme Bomber class range with Extreme fighter class maneuverability.

You will still need Tankers, so the goal shouldn't be to eliminate the need for tankers but simply to minimize the reliance on tankers.



The easy (easier), faster and much cheaper option is F-35'D', with variable-cycle engine which especially emphasizes gains at high-speed and high-altitude (for range purposes, not just for fighting, as such) plus F-35C's wing on the D for better high-alt stability loaded, plus a conformal tank over the upper wing blended 'roots', and further evolved sensors and software-defined capabilities (as will develop anyway). A few countries would certainly be interested in operating that sort of variant (Japan and Australia for two).

Most of the need for some faster deeper VLO Strike/BVR is thus covered.

Or at least it's a good interim compromise (with respect to a PCA type jet role) as a maturing of other tech/propulsion to make the PCA type option work occurs (given today's remarks indicate PCA development may be on the back-burner for the time being, as the F-35 build occupies the prime focus ... viewtopic.php?f=22&t=54447&p=401667#p401667 ).

If an F-35D did that well enough, a PCA may remain on the back-burner for longer, which is also a good thing, why go early to crystallizing a capability or platform, if you don't need to yet? Plus better F-35 weapons may be able to take up the PCA strike slack in the interim, at far cheaper cost, and fielded sooner.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 13 Sep 2018, 04:02
by element1loop
lrrpf52 wrote:The idea that these are incremental 5th generation technologies is really a stretch.


The PCA conception was sold from the beginning as a rapid-prototype airframe that's an evolution of existing tech in order to speed the rate of development and production with an eye on 2029 service entry.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 13 Sep 2018, 06:50
by weasel1962
I think its good to relook at how PCA unfolded. 2017 PCA study was actually done by USAF scientific advisory board (SAB) which studied the possibility of a PCA aircraft to be implemented by 2030. What the SAB does is to advise and provide information/options to the USAF. It is not the USAF that is selling or planning to implement the PCA for a 2029 service entry.

The current statement by the USAF should be read in that context.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 13 Sep 2018, 06:57
by Corsair1963
zerion wrote:Well the AF isn’t interested

Air Force not considering new F-15 or hybrid F-22/F-35, top civilian says

https://www.defensenews.com/digital-sho ... lian-says/



I've been saying this about both the F-15X and the so-called F-22/F-35 Hybrid for sometime now. Yet, the local expert know more!

:lmao:

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 13 Sep 2018, 08:07
by knowan
marsavian wrote:What will be the effective range of these laser weapons and good luck on trying to achieving this effective distance with a plane twice as fast as you.


Specific distances are unknown, but charts I posted some pages back say 'long-range' for anti-aircraft usage with a few hundred kW lasers, while megawatt range lasers are capable against ballistic missiles and other hypersonic targets at long range.
Lasers of that power are unlikely to be used onboard tactical aircraft anytime soon, but Navy ships and land installations will likely have weapons of that power in the coming decades.

Given such lasers are effective anti-missile weapons too, there might be some significant changes to air and missile warfare when such weapons become widespread.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 13 Sep 2018, 15:41
by element1loop
knowan wrote:
marsavian wrote:What will be the effective range of these laser weapons and good luck on trying to achieving this effective distance with a plane twice as fast as you.


Specific distances are unknown, but charts I posted some pages back say 'long-range' for anti-aircraft usage with a few hundred kW lasers, while megawatt range lasers are capable against ballistic missiles and other hypersonic targets at long range.
Lasers of that power are unlikely to be used onboard tactical aircraft anytime soon, but Navy ships and land installations will likely have weapons of that power in the coming decades.

Given such lasers are effective anti-missile weapons too, there might be some significant changes to air and missile warfare when such weapons become widespread.



It does not have to be individual lasers. It's a mistake to think about this in terms of single-laser performances. If multiple aircraft or multiple ships or ground lasers are d/l connected to a target's precision-data track in real-time, there's nothing to stop them auto-coordinating a kill, using multiple lasers, to overcome degradation or range attenuation factors. Those factors can be measured by the lasers, and the system could prioritize and schedule the targets for lasing, and the number of lasers needed to get the required effects auto-determined given the prevailing conditions and range. Done and communicated in under a second. Such a system could hand-off a target to another network of lasers (if a target moves out of range) to complete the engagement.

Lasers will be coming and their range-depleted energy will SUM to a NET-amount that will be effective.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 15 Sep 2018, 08:27
by zero-one
Corsair1963 wrote:I've been saying this about both the F-15X and the so-called F-22/F-35 Hybrid for sometime now. Yet, the local expert know more!

:lmao:

Well I'd rather believe the experts on the article itself

https://www.defensenews.com/digital-sho ... lian-says/
Experts who spoke with Defense News said it’s very likely that the Air Force intends to keep its focus on ramping up F-35 production for the time being, but that alternative platforms could very well be considered in future years.

However, it is the F-22/F-35 hybrid, not the F-15X, that they believe stands a better chance of being adopted by the Air Force.

Defense One, which broke the story about Lockheed’s hybrid offer, wrote that the proposed jet would involve taking the F-22 airframe and outfitting it with some of the F-35’s more advanced mission systems, though some structural changes could also be involved.

“Every F-22 hybrid or derivative I’ve seen has been great,” said Rebecca Grant, a defense analyst with IRIS independent Research.

The Air Force is in great need of such a stealthy air superiority aircraft because it only procured 183 F-22s, she said. Its other plane that specializes in the air-to-air fight, the F-15C/D, was originally fielded in the 1970s.


Grant said she interprets Wilson’s dismissal of the F-22/F-35 hybrid as a reflection of near-term requirements and priorities, noting that “job one is acquiring the F-35.” But in the future, that jet could be what the service decides it needs to contend with current and future threats.

David Deptula, the dean of the Mitchell Institute for Aerospace Power Studies and a retired Air Force lieutenant general, agreed that the service should continue buying F-35s for the time being.

However, the F-22/F-35 hybrid might be a good option for the service in the future, when it begins looking for a next-generation air superiority jet, which the Air Force has variously called Penetrating Counter Air and Next Generation Air Dominance.


It ain't over :nono: :nono: :nono:

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 04 Oct 2018, 09:31
by talkitron
Reposting this from another Japan-specific thread.

The Japanese F-22/F-35 hybrid seems to be dead because of cost reasons. So are advanced F-15s and Typhoons.Japan will seek to collaborate on either the UK or the French-German projects.

https://mainichi.jp/english/articles/20 ... na/001000c

As many as 92 F-2s are owned by the Air Self-Defense Force, and will begin to reach the end of their service life in the 2030s. The quick adoption of a replacement plan is necessary as developing a fighter jet can take 10 years or more. In response to a government call for proposals, three American and British manufacturers made offers to upgrade their existing models -- Lockheed Martin for its F-22, Boeing for its F-15, and BAE for its Eurofighter Typhoon.

However, refurbishing the stealthy, state-of-the-art F-22 is expensive, and "no clear explanation was given about the possibility of the U.S. government lifting the export ban" on the aircraft, according to a senior ministry official. The two other proposals also failed to meet the ministry's requirements.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 04 Oct 2018, 13:06
by disconnectedradical
Someone's hopes and dreams got crushed :lmao:

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 05 Oct 2018, 16:07
by mixelflick
Every day that ticks by, PCA gets closer. By the time they put this F-22/35 hybrid together, the PCA will already be flying - so I don't see it happening.

It's what the Raptor should have been from the beginning, and hopefully that (and the stumped production run) are mistakes the Air Force will learn from. Otherwise, they're going to have to keep spinning lies like, "The F-22 was cancelled to save the B-21...". Complete bullsh!t.

Someone should have paid for that mistake with their career, but instead we're going to make excuses and keep sending certain people their pensions for a job not very well done. Reminds me of corporate America's golden parachutes after running their companies into the ground..

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 06 Oct 2018, 01:30
by madrat
The Japanese stealth demonstrator looks suspiciously like an F-15. Are we sure they couldn't just make their own? Basically what the F-15X fanboys wanted.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 06 Oct 2018, 03:38
by charlielima223
madrat wrote:The Japanese stealth demonstrator looks suspiciously like an F-15. Are we sure they couldn't just make their own? Basically what the F-15X fanboys wanted.


I haven't heard/read anything recent about their ATD-X. I'm pretty sure it died on the vine. Developing and testing advanced technologies/materials/systems associated with 5th generation aircraft is an expensive and time consuming project. The best Japan can do is co-develop with another nation that has more experience (i.e the United States).

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 06 Oct 2018, 08:47
by zero-one
Well hold on PCA fans. The PCA may not be what you think. At least Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. Dave Goldfein doesn't know what it is either

https://www.defensenews.com/digital-sho ... r-designs/
Gen. Dave Goldfein wrote:“When you look at — through the lens of the network — and you look at air superiority as a mission, as a family-of-systems approach, you can see why you don’t hear me talking a lot about a replacement, A for B, Because the replacement may not be a single platform, it maybe two or three different kinds of capabilities and systems. And so as we look at air superiority in the future, ensuring that we’re advancing to stay ahead of the adversary, we’re looking at all those options.


Air Force’s special adviser wrote:“It’s not necessarily about a new airplane or a new platform. It’s about how you take the power of things that operate in space, things that operate in cyberspace, things that operate in air and terrestrially and subsurface to create effects in the battlespace. So how do you leverage the power of all those data streams and fit them together in new ways?”


What does this thing even look like? Is it a manned/unmanned platform with stealth? Is it a larger mothership that can control all these unmanned systems? I just don’t know.”


Hey PCA could be a new computer virus or an battlespace management system sort a like Aegis.
Or if we're talking a family of systems, we could have shooters augmented by large "mothership"

The F-22/35 Hybrid makes a good candidate as part of that "Systems Family" taking the "shooter" role.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 06 Oct 2018, 15:42
by mixelflick
I hope PCA isnt' some software update (or whatever).

Things with wings always inspire. I'd think at the very least you'd need a new hardware platform with the range, that much is well established. And large (will need to carry the electronics and magazine depth). But they're talking about the next "fighter" perhaps not even having an "F" designation?

Frustrating. But perhaps that's the point. While Russia develops its "sixth generation" SU-57 and China is doing... God knows what - we're confusing both of them with this talk about a "system of systems" approach. It makes sense though. Air combat used to be fighter vs. fighter with guns. Then came missiles, then came multiple BVR missile shots. Next was stealth. Modern fighter aircraft now almost rival WWII bombers in size and weight

The way the Pentagon is talking though, its as if they've gone all Zen on the air dominance mission. Put yourself at the helm of Lockheed, Northrop or Boeing.

Poor design engineers are probably drinking heavily, or reveling in the blank canvas...

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 07 Oct 2018, 08:00
by element1loop
mixelflick wrote:I hope PCA isnt' some software update (or whatever).

Things with wings always inspire. I'd think at the very least you'd need a new hardware platform with the range, that much is well established. And large (will need to carry the electronics and magazine depth). But they're talking about the next "fighter" perhaps not even having an "F" designation?

Frustrating. But perhaps that's the point. While Russia develops its "sixth generation" SU-57 and China is doing... God knows what - we're confusing both of them with this talk about a "system of systems" approach. It makes sense though. Air combat used to be fighter vs. fighter with guns. Then came missiles, then came multiple BVR missile shots. Next was stealth. Modern fighter aircraft now almost rival WWII bombers in size and weight

The way the Pentagon is talking though, its as if they've gone all Zen on the air dominance mission. Put yourself at the helm of Lockheed, Northrop or Boeing.

Poor design engineers are probably drinking heavily, or reveling in the blank canvas...


The original PCA conception heavily emphasized rapid-prototyping to evolve existing technology, to put it in service fast, with potentially less capability than existing aircraft, until block-developed and matured in service to become significantly more capable, probably during the following decade or so.

F-35 had all the right Ideas, but the next one needs the ~20,000 lb weapon payload on the inside, instead of outside, rather than try to make enough room for weapons later. Plus 30,000 lb internal fuel.

So a longer thicker 'stubbie', more bomber than fighter would fit the bill.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 07 Oct 2018, 08:27
by zero-one
mixelflick wrote: Modern fighter aircraft now almost rival WWII bombers in size and weight

Not just almost.

The B-24 was one of the biggest heavy bombers in WWII. Weighed 33,000 lbs empty thats a few hundred pounds less than the F-35C empty. It's max capacity was 8,000 lbs which is less than the F/A-50's max capacity by a few hundred pounds.

Lancasters also weighed around 37,000 lbs empty, a few thousand pounds less than the Flanker S. 14,000 lbs max bomb load, a bit less than the F-16.

Heaviest fighter I know is the F-14D (correct me if I'm wrong) 43,700 lbs empty.
Largest load I know is the F-15E (correct me if I'm wrong as well) 23,000 lbs of weapons.

I think this was how the fighters killed the bombers.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 07 Oct 2018, 11:07
by marsavian
F-35 had all the right Ideas, but the next one needs the ~20,000 lb weapon payload on the inside, instead of outside, rather than try to make enough room for weapons later. Plus 30,000 lb internal fuel.

So a longer thicker 'stubbie', more bomber than fighter would fit the bill


Agree but with a very good wing design you could still get very good fighter performance out of it with low combat wing loading and thrust/weight ratio exceeding unity. I would suggest the ratio would be more ~10,000 lb weapon payload on the inside plus 40,000 lb internal fuel. It would not have to be thicker as you would not need to design around a STOVL base, just longer, wider wings and sleeker so aerodynamic efficiency plus the fuel gives you much greater range. With two 50klb engines you have latitude to expand what a fighter can do in terms of range but still be able to do traditional fighter missions like close combat. 3D TVC engines would be a must too to maximize maneuverability with such a large design which may not have a tail for stealth reasons.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 07 Oct 2018, 12:24
by zero-one
How agile can tailless designes be?
There was extensive research on this via the X-36 program. (Not to mention, easily one of the best looking airframes ever)

I believe Boeing's proposal for the F/A-XX looked strikingly similar to the X-36.
With an empty weight pushing North of 50,000 lbs and 40,000lbs fuel plus another 10,000 lbs of weapons, can a supersized X-36 based design still perform Raptor like close combat Kinematics?

Perhaps we'll need more info on the X-36 to find out.
So far heres all I have:

The X-36 project team examined the aircraft's agility at low speed/high angles of attack and at high speed/low angles of attack. The X-36's speed envelope reached up to 206 knots (234 miles per hour); the aircraft was very stable and maneuverable and handled very well at both ends of the speed envelope.


https://www.nasa.gov/centers/armstrong/ ... -DFRC.html

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 07 Oct 2018, 13:27
by marsavian
The X-36 had TVC as well as a canard and did 40 Deg AoA.

Instead, a canard forward of the wing is utilized, in addition to split ailerons and an advanced thrust-vectoring nozzle for directional control. The X-36 is unstable in both the pitch and yaw axes; therefore, an advanced, single-channel digital fly-by-wire control system, developed with some commercially available components, stabilizes the aircraft.


Can a supersized X-36 based design still perform Raptor like close combat Kinematics?

Yes maybe even better with a great wing design (LERX/cranked Delta) and full 360 Deg 3D vectoring. The Su-27 performs similar to a F-16 in turning even though twice the size. It's about RATIOS not absolute numbers. Thrust/Weight, Lift/Drag, Weight/Lifting Area etc. Basically the PCA should be a bigger rangier stealthier Raptor but more advanced with the technology improvements in stealth, aerodynamics, engine propulsion, radars/avionics/networks since the 1980/90s.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 07 Oct 2018, 13:39
by zero-one
marsavian wrote:
It's about RATIOS not absolute numbers.


Thats what Logic dictates but as with the F/A-18 Legacy and Super, something seems to change when you super size things. The Super feels bigger for the pilot despite their best efforts to make it exactly the same as the Legacy and probably improve on all fronts as well.

In terms of handling how does it compare with the C model?

“The engineers will tell you, that the flight control software in the two airplanes they tried to make as similar as possible. But you can feel some differences. As the pilot, it feels just a little heavier. I think that’s to be expected. It’s bigger, its got a bigger wingspan, much bigger leading extension extension on the wings. It’s heavier. Everything is just a little thicker. The legacy Hornet, to me, feels just a little more nimble, just a little sportier.”

https://hushkit.net/2012/07/13/hushkit- ... inal-word/

Something about making things bigger doesn't directly translate well even if you add more power and wing area on the other end. I don't know what it is, but perhaps our resident aero engineers can explain better.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 07 Oct 2018, 13:57
by marsavian
The Super Hornet has better instantaneous maneuverability and AOA authority than the Hornet, see your link and the comparison E-M graphs already posted many times. Maybe you might lose a touch in transient maneuverability with increasing weight but that will be offset on this case with a much more advanced real 3D TVC nozzle. The Super Hornet and Hornet are more similar than different to each other in aerodynamic performance than any other aircraft so it's all about degrees of difference. The PCA will also start combat at BVR at supercruise speeds, how it say rolls will not be an issue at the beginning of combat, let the opponent survive from Mach to AoA speeds first to worry about that.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 07 Oct 2018, 14:46
by zero-one
I'm aware of that.
I wasn't actually implying that the Legacy is better than the Supper in WVR.

What I'm saying is that, it seems that when you have 2 identical airframes, with the same exact T/W ratio and Wing loading and Drag index basically the same everything except the size, their performance will also be different.

I'm sure the engineers can shed more light weather this is true or not.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 07 Oct 2018, 15:18
by marsavian
Hornet and Super Hornet are not identical just very similar e.g. Hornet has not got those slanted pylons. You are missing the big picture, the object of the exercise is not to achieve identical F-22 performance and be upset if you don't but to design your new long range stealthier fighter with enough maneuverability so it can handle itself well in a melee which it will do its best to avoid in the first place. This is the philosophy behind the F-35 maneuverability, give it enough competent all round ability so the pilots are not too wary to prosecute missions. There just won't be any F-22s at the extreme range the PCA will operate at, they will be the rear guard. As it happens there is enough thrust lattitude with two Advent F-135 to come up with a better aerodynamic design than F-22 along with more vectored nozzles so that any weight inertia disadvantage is more than compensated for. Time for everyone to recognise the F-22, like the B-1/B-2, are limited edition classics not to be produced again if the Japanese don't bite !

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 07 Oct 2018, 16:14
by zero-one
I get your point and I agree with them. I'm not really stating, I'm more of asking.

The X-36 seems like a good basis for PCA if it will turn out to be another fighter. Tailless for broadband all aspect Stealth. Supersized for range and payload.

We can tell that the X-36 was able to perform well in the knife fight performance metric. However will that translate over if you enlarge the airframe? Thats really what my question is.

The Legacy vs Super analogy was a only a comparison. As we can see with those 2 designs, even if engineers try to make everything as similar as possible, some things don't necessarily carry over.

I'm sure the aero-engineers at Boeing did not trade energy performance for better Slow speed high AOA, because as far as I know those are more of last ditch maneuvers, for do or die moves. If they were given a choice, they would make everything better. But it seems like they really couldn't quite match the snap of the Legacy hornets with EPE engines, although they are better than the ones with original engines.

So my question is just that, will super sizing the X-36, slapping bigger motors that will give it the same T/W ratio offer the exact same performance as the original prototype or is it more complicated that that?

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 08 Oct 2018, 04:06
by johnwill
It's not possible to scale up all all performance characteristics the same amount. For example, if you double the dimensions of the airplane, lift and drag would be about four times higher, but weight would be about eight times higher. In a steady turn or roll, 9g feels the same and 200 deg/sec roll feels the same no matter the size of the airplane. But, and this is a big but, dynamic maneuvers, where g and roll rate are changing, will feel very different. Pitch and roll moment of inertia do not scale up the same as pitch and aileron roll moment. On our imaginary double dimension airplane, moments of inertia are about thirty two times bigger. Aerodynamic pitch moments to increase AoA to get high g and aileron roll moments to get higher roll rate are only about eight times higher, so pitch acceleration to a higher g and roll acceleration to a higher roll rate will be much lower.

There are several other factors such as structural flexibility and Reynolds number that will affect performance. The above explanation is only intended to show why scaling up an airplane is difficult.

RC model airplane builders are faced with the opposite problem when they scale down by factors of five or ten. Plus they face the problem of scaling down airspeeds. To me that's why those models don't ever look quite right during dynamic maneuvers.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 08 Oct 2018, 04:17
by element1loop
zero-one wrote:How agile can tailless designes be?


Plus how do you manage cross-winds? Or spins? Or counter severe thrust-asymmetry if down to one engine? As then you must either have 3D TVC or punch-out.

I suspect 3D TVC is going to be much more of a problem for RCS (plus cost and complexity) than just keeping and improving RCS of stabs, and using 2D TVC for roll and pitch.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 08 Oct 2018, 08:13
by zero-one
johnwill wrote:It's not possible to scale up all all performance characteristics the same amount. For example, if you double the dimensions of the airplane, lift and drag would be about four times higher, but weight would be about eight times higher.


Theres the answer I was looking for. that explains why the LWF, ATF and JSF program went with full scale prototypes for performance tests.

But if Boeing will make an X-36 based or inspired PCA, then that would be interesting.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 08 Oct 2018, 17:26
by vilters
Agility is not everything…. History has the habit of repeating itself.

Remember : During WW2 the Japanese Zero was more agile then the P-40.

But when the P-40 adapted the climb, dive, hit and run to re-attack tactic, they cleaned the skies.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 08 Oct 2018, 17:42
by zero-one
vilters wrote:Agility is not everything…. History has the habit of repeating itself.


No its not, in fact I would say it has moved down to 3rd in the Relevance scale behind S.A. and Stealth.
But its still something that I think has its place in the modern network centric environment.

US warplanes have always had a maneuvering advantage over all their adversaries since Vietnam.
Are you ready to give that up with PCA.

you may not need it but going into combat knowing that you are flying the slower, more sluggish airplane has a certain effect on pilot confidence.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 08 Oct 2018, 21:18
by marsavian
PCA will not be sluggish because they have 30klb more overall thrust to play with than F-22. The best analogue of what they are trying to build is to imagine a SR-71 sized aircraft built for extreme stealth rather than Mach 3. This had a really big wing as well as a lifting body giving 1,800 ft2 wing area which still gave it a respectable fighter like 84 lb/ft² wing loading at take off with full fuel. It had an empty weight of 67,500 lb yet carried 80,000lb fuel. With two F-135 Advents at half internal fuel you are still looking at a combat thrust/weight ratio of around 1 even with 1960s SR-71 technology and aircraft have got a lot lighter since then.

The basic doubling of thrust from F-100 to F-135 gives aircraft designers a lot more lattitude in their design plus the use of lighter composites everywhere would keep the weight down. So if they build a big winged aircraft with great high lift/low drag aerodynamics you might even get better maneuverability than F-22. You should be excited at all the potential design possibilities not fearful of any size/weight increases.

p.s. how far would a sleek Advent PCA with 80klb fuel go ? ;)

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 08 Oct 2018, 23:13
by popcorn
F135 - 5gen engine
AETP - 6gen engine
It's been reported that the PCA engine will not use an AETP-derived engine. Best to abandon all previous notions and assumptions.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 09 Oct 2018, 03:47
by Corsair1963
popcorn wrote:F135 - 5gen engine
AETP - 6gen engine
It's been reported that the PCA engine will not use an AETP-derived engine. Best to abandon all previous notions and assumptions.




You lost me isn't the PCA a 6th Generation Fighter??? Plus, if the PCA wouldn't use the AETP (Ace) then what would it use???

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 09 Oct 2018, 05:37
by popcorn
Corsair1963 wrote:
popcorn wrote:F135 - 5gen engine
AETP - 6gen engine
It's been reported that the PCA engine will not use an AETP-derived engine. Best to abandon all previous notions and assumptions.




You lost me isn't the PCA a 6th Generation Fighter??? Plus, if the PCA wouldn't use the AETP (Ace) then what would it use???

I make a distinction between platform generations and engine generations. IIRC there was a statement in these boards credited to the AF that the next fighter would use an engine other than the AETP product.

Add edit - IIRC the engine for the 6gen platform will still use adaptive tech so it would in fact build on AETP but it's optimized for the A2A role. It's a step beyond the initial AETP offerings from GE and P&A which are aimed at re-engining the F-35. Pretty much hush-hush just like PCA.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 09 Oct 2018, 08:33
by zero-one
Well from what we know the PCA will need broadband stealth, it'll need enough range to operate comfortably in the pacific theater with no or at least minimal tanker support, weapons payload will or DE weapons is a must, and the DOD does not want another protracted 10+ year development cycle so using "mature" technologies is a must.

Having an F-22/35 hybrid with ADVENT may fit the bill in my opinion, but if a clean sheet design is chosen then a super sized X-36 may also be a good choice. It's mature, it's tailless for broadband stealth and it's an air-frame optimized for maneuverability. but I think a lot will depend on how big it will be, as Johnwill stated, increasing the are twice will increase the drag 4x

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 09 Oct 2018, 14:19
by KamenRiderBlade
If it was a clean sheet design for Japan, I would go with a updated / modified YF-23 body/mold.

Change the lines to be simpler with a larger elongated & widened Hexagon fuselage and include the Tripple TVC paddles from their earlier Stealth prototype.

Add in Saw-Tooth edges at the base of the Tripple TVC paddles per exhaust nozzle and stub paddles in a Hexagonal formation to account for stealth.

The larger internal body volume will allow for more weapons & fuel payload.

Modify the fundamental design to use simpler / more fuel efficient engines they can get their hands on that meets their requirements.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 09 Oct 2018, 16:21
by disconnectedradical
zero-one wrote:Having an F-22/35 hybrid with ADVENT may fit the bill in my opinion


F-22 based airframe even with ADVENT is not enough, there's just not enough fuel. ADVENT only brings 30% range improvement, and operating in Pacific will need MUCH more. F-22 is great airframe today but it won't be cutting edge tomorrow and it's time to move on.

Image

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 09 Oct 2018, 17:15
by marsavian
F-22 has the same 18klb internal fuel as the F-35A, it's just not going to cut it as a really long range fighter. The PCA will have at least 40klb internal fuel probably more like 50-60 klb if they get the design right. F-22's best legacy is that it predeveloped a lot of the F-35 technology but it will always be a supreme interceptor and battlefield air superiority fighter.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 10 Oct 2018, 01:15
by weasel1962
The more fuel carried, the larger the plane, the bigger the cost, the fewer built, the more impact on performance. There has got to be a sweet spot.

The F-22 carries 4 drop tanks providing 15,600lbs extra (roughly same cost as a GBU or <$100k). That's a solution without aerial refuel.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 10 Oct 2018, 02:14
by sferrin
weasel1962 wrote:The F-22 carries 4 drop tanks providing 15,600lbs extra (roughly same cost as a GBU or <$100k). That's a solution without aerial refuel.


The F-22 does not carry 4 drop tanks. It was supposed to but the outer pylons were never tested with tanks. Don't know the specifics.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 10 Oct 2018, 05:03
by element1loop
Corsair1963 wrote: ... You lost me isn't the PCA a 6th Generation Fighter??? ...


NO!

It's been said in prior article about the PCA concept that it's not to be regarded as a 6th-gen (or any other gen) and discussion of the generational stereo-typing for the design is discouraged (i.e. stop thinking about the design in those terms) as it's intended as a rapid-prototype of existing and improved on technology to field it quickly then develop the operational capability needs once it's already in service, and as needed for the penetration role, from there. Thus an emphasis on in-built maximized adaptability to build in flexibility in the ways it can be applied, over time, in service.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 10 Oct 2018, 05:19
by element1loop
KamenRiderBlade wrote:If it was a clean sheet design for Japan, I would go with a updated / modified YF-23 body/mold.

Change the lines to be simpler with a larger elongated & widened Hexagon fuselage and include the Tripple TVC paddles from their earlier Stealth prototype.

Add in Saw-Tooth edges at the base of the Tripple TVC paddles per exhaust nozzle and stub paddles in a Hexagonal formation to account for stealth.

The larger internal body volume will allow for more weapons & fuel payload.

Modify the fundamental design to use simpler / more fuel efficient engines they can get their hands on that meets their requirements.


Doubting this a bit KRB. LM said long ago they can make VLO curved surfaces with little difficulty. They have not been pursuing faceting much since then. If a hex long-axis skin added anything to stealth, wouldn't we be seeing that in weapon design shaping? Plus corners tend to be brighter in IR due to air interaction, while curved surfaces make for smoother air flow and less thermal brightness.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 10 Oct 2018, 05:24
by marsavian
weasel1962 wrote:The more fuel carried, the larger the plane, the bigger the cost, the fewer built, the more impact on performance. There has got to be a sweet spot.

The F-22 carries 4 drop tanks providing 15,600lbs extra (roughly same cost as a GBU or <$100k). That's a solution without aerial refuel.


There is not a sweet spot in this case, instead there is a requirement to operate from Guam/Japan etc to venture far into Asia and project power and air superiority. Effective range will dictate its size and cost. By its very nature it will replace all the Eagles and a few maybe exported to Tier 1 allies e.g. Australia/Japan etc but this is not going to compete with F-35 or any other aircraft on cost so maybe only 500-1000 will ever be built but along with F-22 and F-35 it will totally modernize the USAF for the 21st Century.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 10 Oct 2018, 06:51
by weasel1962
marsavian wrote:There is not a sweet spot in this case, instead there is a requirement to operate from Guam/Japan etc to venture far into Asia and project power and air superiority. Effective range will dictate its size and cost. By its very nature it will replace all the Eagles and a few maybe exported to Tier 1 allies e.g. Australia/Japan etc but this is not going to compete with F-35 or any other aircraft on cost so maybe only 500-1000 will ever be built but along with F-22 and F-35 it will totally modernize the USAF for the 21st Century.


Guam to Taipei is ~1500nm straightline. 40000lbs won't be enough and B-2 sized fighters that can operate at that combat radius aren't exactly the kind USAF needs.

F-22/35s have enough combat radius for Japan to China. If anything, Japan is probably too near. Okinawa is just ~450nm from Shanghai.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 10 Oct 2018, 07:46
by zero-one
disconnectedradical wrote:F-22 based airframe even with ADVENT is not enough, there's just not enough fuel. ADVENT only brings 30% range improvement, and operating in Pacific will need MUCH more. F-22 is great airframe today but it won't be cutting edge tomorrow and it's time to move on.


As it is right now its not really impossible for the F-22 to operate in the Pacific. It actually has better range than the F-15s, F-16s and F/A-18s that will operate with it.

The goal of an F-22 based airframe will not be to eliminate the reliance on Tankers but simply to reduce the reliance on them. It's not gona fly non stop from Nelis to Beijing, fight other fighters then fly back. Just imagine the strain and fatigue on the pilot, Oh and you'll definitely need a bathroom break for that.

If we still want it to have fighter characteristics we can't make it into a giant bomber.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 10 Oct 2018, 09:50
by Corsair1963

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 11 Oct 2018, 18:11
by disconnectedradical
zero-one wrote:
disconnectedradical wrote:F-22 based airframe even with ADVENT is not enough, there's just not enough fuel. ADVENT only brings 30% range improvement, and operating in Pacific will need MUCH more. F-22 is great airframe today but it won't be cutting edge tomorrow and it's time to move on.


As it is right now its not really impossible for the F-22 to operate in the Pacific. It actually has better range than the F-15s, F-16s and F/A-18s that will operate with it.

The goal of an F-22 based airframe will not be to eliminate the reliance on Tankers but simply to reduce the reliance on them. It's not gona fly non stop from Nelis to Beijing, fight other fighters then fly back. Just imagine the strain and fatigue on the pilot, Oh and you'll definitely need a bathroom break for that.

If we still want it to have fighter characteristics we can't make it into a giant bomber.


We're talking about operating in 2030s and what new airframes might be suitable, why even compare F-22 to F-15? F-22 airframe can only take 18,000 lbs of fuel, even prototype YF-22 had more than 20,000 lbs of fuel.

Why so hung up on F-22 airframe? With new technology today we can do more than a 20 year old design. You seem to be under delusion that if its not F-22 airframe it will be like a bomber.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 11 Oct 2018, 18:20
by disconnectedradical
zero-one wrote:YF-22 was better. Even Northrop's engineers conceded that Lockheed prioritized agility more than they did.


Just to make this clear.

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/ ... ened-33116

While the Raptor has evolved into the single most capable air superiority fighter ever built, the YF-23 design—especially when combined with General Electric’s YF-120 variable cycle engines —was arguably more advanced. Compared to the YF-22, the YF-23 was faster and stealthier, but many have argued that it was less maneuverable than the thrust vector controlled precursor to the Raptor. However, the difference in maneuverability between the two designs was far slimmer than many might have imagined.

“Interestingly the YF-22 and YF-23 had exactly the same trimmed AoA [angle of attack] of 60° [degrees],” Paul Metz, who was Northrop’s test pilot for the first YF-23 prototype and who later became Lockheed Martin’s chief test pilot for the F-22, told me in an email in 2015. “The YF-23 could do it without thrust vectoring. Those V-tails are very powerful especially when coupled to an unstable airframe.”

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 13 Oct 2018, 08:47
by zero-one
disconnectedradical wrote:
Why so hung up on F-22 airframe? With new technology today we can do more than a 20 year old design. You seem to be under delusion that if its not F-22 airframe it will be like a bomber.


If we are going to have another 10 year development cycle, with all resources being poured into a single platform like in the ATF and JSF then sure, what we can achieve now will be head and shoulders above what the F-22 is.

But right now the DOD wants to use mature technology and a family of systems approach. So a Hybrid F-22 will only be part of that family. It can fill the shooter role and is mature technology. It will be augmented by other assets

The Raptor is also one of the heaviest fighters ever built, 2nd heaviest just behind the F-14D if I'm not mistaken. They're actually heavier than WWII heavy bombers. So anything bigger is pushing it into bomber territory. And if you really want it to be totally independent of tankers, then you'll really have to turn it into a bomber airframe.

Look to be clear, when I saw Boeing's X-36 inspired design for F/A-XX and Lockheed's YF-23ish drawings, I liked it, a lot.
But realistically, is it mature enough, it really looks like something that will take another 10 years to develop, which the USAF was clear that they don't want to do.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 13 Oct 2018, 09:15
by zero-one
disconnectedradical wrote:Just to make this clear.

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/ ... ened-33116

While the Raptor has evolved into the single most capable air superiority fighter ever built, the YF-23 design—especially when combined with General Electric’s YF-120 variable cycle engines —was arguably more advanced. Compared to the YF-22, the YF-23 was faster and stealthier, but many have argued that it was less maneuverable than the thrust vector controlled precursor to the Raptor. However, the difference in maneuverability between the two designs was far slimmer than many might have imagined.

“Interestingly the YF-22 and YF-23 had exactly the same trimmed AoA [angle of attack] of 60° [degrees],” Paul Metz, who was Northrop’s test pilot for the first YF-23 prototype and who later became Lockheed Martin’s chief test pilot for the F-22, told me in an email in 2015. “The YF-23 could do it without thrust vectoring. Those V-tails are very powerful especially when coupled to an unstable airframe.”


Well I believe that, but I'd also like to point out that the Speed advantage of the YF-23 over the 22 was also slim.

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-b ... uilt-14328
The YF-23—contrary to popular belief—did not have an overall top speed that was any faster than the YF-22. Both jets were limited to an aerodynamic max speed of about Mach 2.2 as a result of their fixed-ramp external compression inlets. In fact, operational F-22 Raptors are “red lined” at exactly Mach 2.0 with an artificial placard because the aircraft’s stealth coating are prone to delamination if the jet went any faster—particularly around the canopy.


So official numbers are Mach 1.62 for YF-23 (PAV-2) and Mach 1.58 for the YF-22. The only real advantage I can see is the Range advantage of the YF-23 but this came at the cost of weapons carrying.

http://www.ausairpower.net/API-Metz-Interview.html
To generate the same maneuver supersonically as subsonically, the controls must be deflected further. This, in turn, results in a big increase in supersonic trim drag and a subsequent loss in acceleration and turn performance. The F-22 offsets this trim drag, not with the horizontal tails, which is the classic approach, but with the thrust vectoring.

I'm not sure those massive pelican tails of the 23 can minimize the supersonic trim drag generated when in a Supersonic turn.

Lastly, The thing about range is, you can add range to an airplane, (EFTs or Aerial refueling). Yes there are risks involved but its easier than adding weapons or maneuverability.

I'm not saying that a Hybrid F-22/35 is the only way to go. But I think it can fit the bill I also think it will be cheaper and have a shorter dev cycle than a clean sheet design.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 13 Oct 2018, 16:13
by wrightwing
Using modern designs, more of the weight can be fuel, so it doesn't mean bomber size. Designs going forward are going to be even stealthier against a wider range of sensors. That's why a clean sheet design is necessary. You can't get the range and desired RCS reduction, with a hybrid F-22. The F-22 and F-35 are in the ~-40 to 45dbsm range. The next generation aircraft will probably be in the -60 to 70dbsm range, and with lower IR/visual/acoustic signatures, too.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 13 Oct 2018, 16:35
by zero-one
wrightwing wrote:Using modern designs, more of the weight can be fuel, so it doesn't mean bomber size. Designs going forward are going to be even stealthier against a wider range of sensors. That's why a clean sheet design is necessary. You can't get the range and desired RCS reduction, with a hybrid F-22. The F-22 and F-35 are in the ~-40 to 45dbsm range. The next generation aircraft will probably be in the -60 to 70dbsm range, and with lower IR/visual/acoustic signatures, too.


Thats all very true.
But will it be cheap, will it not have another 10 year development cycle?

Restarting the F-22 production line will cost $50BN, that may seem like a lot of money, but can you make a new clean sheet design with just that kind of money? smaller than the Rafale program, smaller than the original ATF program?

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 13 Oct 2018, 17:00
by marsavian
The F-22 will have to be seriously updated (computers/IR sensors/network) not just restarted to be leading edge plus there is no potential for directed energy weapons. It will be better to stage a ATF II competition where say Lockheed/Boeing/Grumman build a prototype and go from there. Just putting F-35 avionics/sensors* and two of its engines into a new sleeker bigger airframe which can carry a lot more fuel than F-22/F-35 will be more cost effective and future proof than restarting and updating the F-22 line. Time to let the F-22 design RIP unless the Japanese want to pay the bill for restarting it. Do you know that it will cost about $50m per F-22 just to bring the earlier blocks up to the latest standard ? It's expensive enough just updating the current F-22s. Start with a clean sheet to meet the new requirements and modern prototypes will be built for selection.

* e.g. you could just put EOTS/DAS II straight into the design from the beginning rather than think of ingenious and no doubt expensive ways to fit similar functions into a cramped F-22 airframe.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 13 Oct 2018, 17:55
by wrightwing
zero-one wrote:
wrightwing wrote:Using modern designs, more of the weight can be fuel, so it doesn't mean bomber size. Designs going forward are going to be even stealthier against a wider range of sensors. That's why a clean sheet design is necessary. You can't get the range and desired RCS reduction, with a hybrid F-22. The F-22 and F-35 are in the ~-40 to 45dbsm range. The next generation aircraft will probably be in the -60 to 70dbsm range, and with lower IR/visual/acoustic signatures, too.


Thats all very true.
But will it be cheap, will it not have another 10 year development cycle?

Restarting the F-22 production line will cost $50BN, that may seem like a lot of money, but can you make a new clean sheet design with just that kind of money? smaller than the Rafale program, smaller than the original ATF program?


We're not looking to field anything new, in 2028. It'll be 2035 to 2040.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 14 Oct 2018, 02:22
by weasel1962
Reminds me of the F-111. Starts out as a fighter design, put in enough and guess what...bomber. Fuel, as is, takes up space and weight. More advanced engines does mean more weight carried for the same T-W ratio but it also means more fuel burn. There will be a sweet spot between fighter and bomber performance.

The F-22 design is a 70k lb thrust design for a ~65/44k lb loaded/empty weight. Twin F-135 engines would be 80-90k lb thrust. That suggests maybe 30-40k lb fuel at similar empty weight. Something with a bigger bay perhaps.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 14 Oct 2018, 02:47
by sferrin
weasel1962 wrote:Reminds me of the F-111. Starts out as a fighter design, put in enough and guess what...bomber. Fuel, as is, takes up space and weight. More advanced engines does mean more weight carried for the same T-W ratio but it also means more fuel burn. There will be a sweet spot between fighter and bomber performance.

The F-22 design is a 70k lb thrust design for a ~65/44k lb loaded/empty weight. Twin F-135 engines would be 80-90k lb thrust. That suggests maybe 30-40k lb fuel at similar empty weight. Something with a bigger bay perhaps.


267338-5fb-23_model.jpg


FB-23-3.jpg

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 14 Oct 2018, 08:40
by zero-one
marsavian wrote:The F-22 will have to be seriously updated (computers/IR sensors/network) not just restarted to be leading edge plus there is no potential for directed energy weapons.


I agree, But if the F-22 restart will be taken seriously it needs to take the same upgrade path that will make it technologically on par with the F-35s that will be rolling out in that time line.

But be careful. A lot of people will want to make it multi-role, or rather, more capable in the A-G role than it already is. Don't do that. Thats the whole purpose of the F-35. Thats the reason why the US needs all 2000+ F-35s in the original plan. All upgrades for the F-22 should be focused on what will make it better in the A-A role only and nothing more.

*F-35 class computer boxes or smaller giving it more room for internal fuel
*Advent engines
*replace MLD with DAS
*HMDs
*DIRCM turrets

This whole F-22 upgrade/restart proposal is simply the cheapest option on the table. There is no clean sheet design that can be built within the $50 billion range that the F-22 restart is on.

A clean sheet design will be better no doubt, but it can never be as cheap and it can never be built sooner than an F-22 restart.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 15 Oct 2018, 00:58
by weasel1962
It would be ironic if hurricane Michael brings forward the F-22 replacement timeline.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 15 Oct 2018, 13:18
by mixelflick
The F-22/35 hybrid is dead. Not happening. Nothin' doin'...

It's no accident though that the PCA models/artist conceptions bear a strong resemblance to the YF-23A. If I'm not mistaken, PCA concepts started with YF-23A like aircraft, then departed radically from such and now swinging back to the Black WIdow/Gray Ghost. Let's talk about why...

First, the airframe. As it stands, the YF-23A could fly entire missions in super-cruise. We weren't told if the YF-22A could do the same, but that little detail is left conspicuously absent. Second, drag. I think several minds here clarified the production F-23 had a much lower drag index than any F-22 variation. Next, speed. Folks here have said that while the YF-23A wasn't much faster than the F-22. But that stands in direct conflict with more than one pilot/engineer stated in a popular youtube documentary. Comments to the effect such as, "I can't tell you how much faster, but it was a LOT faster...". I remember that distinctly. Lots of room for avionics and I'd imagine things like CFT's, although it's range on internal fuel would be substantial.

Which brings us to weapons carriage. It's here where the design really fell down, at least on the prototype. Could an F-23 like design carry "enough" air to air weapons to meet requirements? What do the new, longer range AAM's look like and how big are they? All very pertinent questions.

So we shall see. The SU-57 is a nice acknowledgement of the designs hallmarks IMO. It may be that PCA's design is a tip of the hat as well, we'll just have to wait... :(

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 15 Oct 2018, 13:50
by zero-one
1. The F-22/35 Hybrid proposal is not dead until the DOD makes a finalized decision on what the PCA will be.
If you'll say that its no accident that drawings are based on the YF-23 then I'll say its also no accident that Lockheed is proposing the F-22 Hybrid as a possible PCA candidate.

2. Speed.
Entire mission on super-cruise:
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-b ... uilt-14328
“Supercruise is impressive on paper but not very practical in a fighter with limited fuel,”

Unless the YF-23 somehow had unlimited fuel, then Supercruise wouldn't be practical even if it can do it for an entire sortie. Certainly you won't be super cruising a lot in a Pacific theater where air bases and tanker support may be far away.

Metz himself said they never went faster than Mach 1.85, granted he flew PAV-1 with the less powerful YF-119s
PAV-2 was "quite a bit faster" according to Jim Sandberg.
besides theres this:


The YF-23—contrary to popular belief—did not have an overall top speed that was any faster than the YF-22. Both jets were limited to an aerodynamic max speed of about Mach 2.2 as a result of their fixed-ramp external compression inlets.

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-b ... uilt-14328

mixelflick wrote: I think several minds here clarified the production F-23 had a much lower drag index than any F-22
I've never heard of this, and I find it hard to believe, can you quote here who said this?

There is also this statement from Paul Metz:
To generate the same maneuver supersonically as subsonically, the controls must be deflected further. This, in turn, results in a big increase in supersonic trim drag and a subsequent loss in acceleration and turn performance. The F-22 offsets this trim drag, not with the horizontal tails, which is the classic approach, but with the thrust vectoring.


The YF-23 will use those giant Pelican tails to maneuver both subsonically and supersonically, the Trim drag will be massive compared to the F-22's TVC approach.

"I can't tell you how much faster, but it was a LOT faster...".
I've seen that, I think it was Jim Sandberg who said that, the YF-23 test pilot.

Anyway, the Lockheed team may have focused more on maneuvering performance than speed. So just like how YF-23 crowds love to say that the YF-23 coulda woulda shoulda demonstrated similar maneuvering performance as the YF-22 then the YF-22 may have also not maxed out their airplane when it came to speed demonstrations.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 15 Oct 2018, 14:00
by marsavian
Mixelflick, agree totally, the PCA concept indicates a (super)cruiser with plenty of range due to more fuel and less drag. The F-22 is basically a super F-15 with stealth and even more maneuverability. It was the first combat stealth fighter and at air superiority it's probably still unrivalled. However the PCA is about escorting bombers and long range fighting (1000nm+) and the F-22 cannot do this as efficiently as a clean sheet design i.e. impractical to keep dropping external fuel tanks on a stealth mission. The USAF should basically specify a minimum radius on internal fuel, maximum RCS at low/high frequencies, minimum instantaneous/sustained maneuverability and then give the requirements to industry and see what they all come up with and let the best designs going to a prototype fly-off, e.g. like ATF/JSF competitions. If the Lockheed Martin team want to come up with a F-22/F-35 hybrid as their solution, go for it.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 15 Oct 2018, 17:37
by disconnectedradical
zero-one wrote:*F-35 class computer boxes or smaller giving it more room for internal fuel


Smaller computers don't magically give more room for fuel unless you redo internal structures

zero-one wrote:The YF-23 will use those giant Pelican tails to maneuver both subsonically and supersonically, the Trim drag will be massive compared to the F-22's TVC approach.


Massive? So do you know YF-23's trim vs Mach to make that statement? Trim drag reduction from TVC is significant if comparing the same airframe, one with TVC and one without. You can't say YF-23 drag will be more than YF-22 just because of TVC and trim drag, they're different airframes with very different drag contributions. For supersonic the fineness ratio is important for wave drag and YF-23 is much better here.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 15 Oct 2018, 20:09
by wrightwing
No hybrid of the F-22 is going to have the necessary range or RCS reduction, for the PCA competition. They're not going to buy something with current stealth levels, and that doesn't have significantly longer legs.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 15 Oct 2018, 20:40
by sferrin
wrightwing wrote:No hybrid of the F-22 is going to have the necessary range or RCS reduction, for the PCA competition. They're not going to buy something with current stealth levels, and that doesn't have significantly longer legs.


So far this is my favorite concept:

LM-F-X-clear_zps56a52ef5.jpg


NGAD.jpg

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 16 Oct 2018, 08:03
by zero-one
disconnectedradical wrote:
Massive? So do you know YF-23's trim vs Mach to make that statement? Trim drag reduction from TVC is significant if comparing the same airframe, one with TVC and one without. You can't say YF-23 drag will be more than YF-22 just because of TVC and trim drag, they're different airframes with very different drag contributions.


Okay, that makes sense, but all Metz said was that when turning at supersonic speeds the Traditional control surfaces need to be deflected further. This will create massive supersonic trim drag. He did not specify if specific control surface designs like Pelican tails will be exempt from this law of physics.

disconnectedradical wrote:For supersonic the fineness ratio is important for wave drag and YF-23 is much better here.


Thats a very bold claim, do you have evidence to back that up. Having faster cruise speeds don't necessarily translate to better drag properties when maneuvering.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 17 Oct 2018, 07:29
by element1loop
sferrin wrote:So far this is my favorite concept:


Suspect having the pit open to photons will be a problem.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 17 Oct 2018, 07:58
by element1loop
zero-one wrote:There is also this statement from Paul Metz:
To generate the same maneuver supersonically as subsonically, the controls must be deflected further. This, in turn, results in a big increase in supersonic trim drag and a subsequent loss in acceleration and turn performance. The F-22 offsets this trim drag, not with the horizontal tails, which is the classic approach, but with the thrust vectoring.


The YF-23 will use those giant Pelican tails to maneuver both subsonically and supersonically, the Trim drag will be massive compared to the F-22's TVC approach.


I don't see why it could not use a fairly simple paddle deflector (else a post-nozzle ramp) within the jet outflow to trim for pitch in the cruise more efficiently. A little in yaw axis as well, to offset crabbing a cruise with stab, or aileron-roll.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 17 Oct 2018, 13:43
by sferrin
element1loop wrote:
sferrin wrote:So far this is my favorite concept:


Suspect having the pit open to photons will be a problem.


Not sure what you mean here. The canopy is not transparent to RF. (Those fancy coatings you see on canopies are coatings to prevent radar seeing inside.) They could also include layers for laser protection but that probably has power limits.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 17 Oct 2018, 17:38
by disconnectedradical
zero-one wrote:Okay, that makes sense, but all Metz said was that when turning at supersonic speeds the Traditional control surfaces need to be deflected further. This will create massive supersonic trim drag. He did not specify if specific control surface designs like Pelican tails will be exempt from this law of physics.


What do you mean by massive? You can't just say airplane with X feature will be better than another airplane without it when the airframe is so different in the first place. The YF-23 tails are located quite far back with big moment arm and airframe is unstable which is actually better for trim drag. You can't just use checklist of what feature an airplane have and say it's better because it checks more boxes, if you do that then you really lack understanding of aircraft design, no offense.

zero-one wrote:Thats a very bold claim, do you have evidence to back that up. Having faster cruise speeds don't necessarily translate to better drag properties when maneuvering.


YF-23 cross section diagrams are out now, it's easy to compare and calculate their max area and distribution. Even so, YF-23's better fineness ratio is matter of pretty obvious. Airframe is longer, and wingpan is at maximum when the fuselage "waists" the most right where forward fuselage and nacelles blend together. F-22 rear fuselage is quite a bit slimmer than YF-22 so probably has better area ruling too, but F-22 carries much less fuel than YF-22.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 18 Oct 2018, 15:42
by mixelflick
marsavian wrote:Mixelflick, agree totally, the PCA concept indicates a (super)cruiser with plenty of range due to more fuel and less drag. The F-22 is basically a super F-15 with stealth and even more maneuverability. It was the first combat stealth fighter and at air superiority it's probably still unrivalled. However the PCA is about escorting bombers and long range fighting (1000nm+) and the F-22 cannot do this as efficiently as a clean sheet design i.e. impractical to keep dropping external fuel tanks on a stealth mission. The USAF should basically specify a minimum radius on internal fuel, maximum RCS at low/high frequencies, minimum instantaneous/sustained maneuverability and then give the requirements to industry and see what they all come up with and let the best designs going to a prototype fly-off, e.g. like ATF/JSF competitions. If the Lockheed Martin team want to come up with a F-22/F-35 hybrid as their solution, go for it.


That's a healthy way to look at it: Give requirements to industry, see what they come up with. I'd be shocked though if LM developed an F-22/35 hybrid. Moreso because the basic airframe (even scaled up) is only going to hold so much fuel. If there's one shortcoming the Raptor has, it's legs. Yes, fuselage plugs may extend its range but then you have to have much larger weapons bays, where are all those sensors going to go etc. Pretty soon it starts to resemble a clean sheet design. I'm not sure what they'd arrive at, but I don't think it would resemble the F/B-22 concept floating around years ago.

I question the escorting of bombers thing though. When was the last time we did that with any regularity? WWII?? And as far as the B-21 goes, thought that was being designed with inherent self-protection measures. I guess if you have a non stealthy platform like the B-52 it makes sense, but then again I'd imagine option #1 is standoff weapons with that platform. It's interesting to note that the Russians do it though. They recently flew Bears up in Alaska with SU-35 escorts, and I think I've seen them escorting Backfire's as well...

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 18 Oct 2018, 16:58
by vilters
You can not simply add a plug in the fuselage for 2- to 3.000 lbs of extra fuel.
Next you need a stronger landing gear. making it heavy, and you need a larger wing and tail, next you need more trust to retain performance, and the list goes on and on.....

I know : Lots of F-22 fanboys out here, but face it. With all production tooling gone?
And it is becoming an old design.

Better start "clean sheet".

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 19 Oct 2018, 01:16
by marsavian
I question the escorting of bombers thing though. When was the last time we did that with any regularity? WWII?? And as far as the B-21 goes, thought that was being designed with inherent self-protection measures.


... which won't mean much if it's intercepted by a fighter which somehow was (made) aware of its presence. PCA would be flying protective top cover loosely attached to the bombers. F-22 now fulfills this role for even F-35, see the proposed plan to take out Korean nuclear sites.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 19 Oct 2018, 16:19
by vilters
Korean nuclear facilities are Cruise missiles meat.

if that clown over there could "by accident" hit one of our aircraft, he would claim global victory and the news would be proudly shouted to the N. Korean population.

Ha- ha, I love N. Korean T.V news => They should the news to you.

Nah, nah, nah, stay away from N. Korea with airplanes in the initial part of the conflict.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 20 Oct 2018, 08:47
by zero-one
vilters wrote:I know : Lots of F-22 fanboys out here, but face it. With all production tooling gone?
And it is becoming an old design.

Better start "clean sheet".


One word:
BUDGET

The airforce already said they are looking at a "Family of Systems" approach instead of Plane A replacing plane B.

Restarting the F-22 is not impossible, but it will cost $50B. If thats way too expensive, then just imagine how much a clean sheet hypothetical X-Wing fighter will cost. And they'll also need to fund the other platforms which will also be part of the "Family of systems" approach.

The Family could be composed of 3 systems
1. Fighter - Perform traditional air superiority role
2. Long range Interceptor - Escort B-21 to China and back, a dedicated BVR interceptor, Could be a B-21 with AMRAAMs
3. AWAECS/EW similar to the E/A-18,

This is just an example, I'm not saying this will be how they should do it.
The F-22/35 Hybrid could fill in the role of the Fighter
If your idea is to have clean sheet design for all the systems, just imagine what kind of cost that would entail

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 20 Oct 2018, 09:45
by marsavian
They have already decided at the conceptual design stage that B-21 would be a pure bomber with no AMRAAM capability. The fundamental point is though even if you restarted F-22 what is the growth potential over this century ? Could it acquire directed energy weapons for instance ? PCA will become the US's new big heavy fighter and will no doubt have to compete against the new modern stealth SCAF/Tempest in the export markets. Also do you really want to limit innovation in the 21st century by reviving a 20th century design ? You are basically handing the Fighter market lock stock and barrel to LMT for the whole of this century virtually. Set up some ideal requirements and let them all bid for it, give Boeing and Northrop Grumman a chance to get back in the market. Reviving the F-22 will always be an option but let's all shoot higher if we can first.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 20 Oct 2018, 10:21
by zero-one
marsavian wrote: Also do you really want to limit innovation in the 21st century by reviving a 20th century design ? You are basically handing the Fighter market lock stock and barrel to LMT for the whole of this century virtually.


Well, look at the F-15. Basically a 1960s design that is still competing against the Typhoon and Rafale's, the F-16V is attracting a lot of attention in budget fighter category. the Su-35 is another 70s design which still has massive potential. They can do this because they are still in production, it seems that it's much easier for production models to receive upgrades.

I think the F-22 will have the same if not better growth potential as the F-35. Once tooling and production starts, it will be much easier to fit new systems in it, they can do it for the F-35, why not the F-22. The Raptor is bigger, easier thermal management, more internal space and 2 engines means more potential for on board power.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 20 Oct 2018, 11:11
by marsavian
You can't change the basic RCS of the F-22, especially low frequency, or its stealthy internal fuel range. This will prevent it from fulfilling the basic requirements of PCA as we currently perceive them. B-21/PCA are designed not to be detected at all and not just non-targetable by X-band target radars. Again, set the requirements out and have a competition. If LMT think they can achieve this with an evolved F-22 build a prototype and let it compete against the others. There is no need to just give it to Lockheed without even holding a competition. That will not spur innovation and best of breed results.

p.s. Eagle/Flanker/Falcon/Typhoon/Rafale are all the same generation and with updates can leap frog earlier variants of each other. F-22 like F-35 was designed primarily for high frequency stealth while still retaining traditional fighter agility. The PCA requirement currently looks like broadband stealth and long range, let's see if that remains true when the rubber hits the road. The F-22 revival option will always be there but they will probably need to ensure the outer pylons can also be tested and plumbed for fuel tanks too to get combat radius over 1000m. It would be a crude way of doing a real mission (dropping 2/4 tanks and pylons each time) but if overall program cost is or becomes an issue and/or requirement ...

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 20 Oct 2018, 13:24
by zero-one
If LMT think they can achieve this with an evolved F-22 build a prototype and let it compete against the others.


Okay I'll buy that.
But I'll also add this

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ir-423994/
the air force will proceed with many parallel technology development efforts, like new propulsion systems, airframes, directed energy weapons and hypersonic missiles,to develop a “family of systems” – including longer-range, higher-payload platforms to launch volleys of weapons at targets from “standoff” distances and others that will swoop in for direct attacks.



“This generational paradigm is outdated. We needed that integrated network of capabilities; there is no silver bullet. Range and payload are critical, but some studies show that speed, manoeuvrability and some level of low-observable shaping or stealth still have their place.


It's clear that from these statements they realize that integrating extreme bomber like range and extreme fighter maneuverability cannot be integrated into one air frame. You need both but they cannot be done by just one machine

1 will have massive range and massive payload while the other will be extremely agile with modest range, in short everything the F-22 is now.

I would love the Small and agile fighter be a clean sheet design, cause just imagine what they can do with today's aerodynamic sciences, possibly unmanned, the human G limit goes out the window, rendering most missiles close to useless.

Lets face it, even if missiles can pull 40Gs, hitting a fast, nimble fighter maneuvering at 9Gs is still much harder than hitting one at 1G. Just imagine the complications when you move the limit to 15 or 20Gs, with Stealth, advanced countermeasures etc.


But realistically, if you'll spend 60 - 70 billion for each part of the family of systems, then theres a big chance the it'll get canceled and the AF knows that. The F-22 Hybrid is attractive because its the cheap option.

p.s. Eagle/Flanker/Falcon/Typhoon/Rafale are all the same generation

But the Eagle wen't to service 30 years earlier than it's contemporaries. the F-15 was ahead of its time, just like how the F-22 is now.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 20 Oct 2018, 13:41
by mixelflick
Great points here about the inherent limitations of the F-22 airframe, internal fuel etc. Yet, an even better point IMO was the cost of a clean sheet design. So it probably won't be an F-22/35 hybrid, and it won't be an entirely new design either.

So where does this leave us?

It leaves us with a YF-23 like starting point, IMO. It more closely matches the known PCA requirements of greater stealth and range (at least relative to the F-22). It has "enough" maneuverability, would make an ideal long range escort and (if scaled up), it will carry "enough" weapons and fuel.

Boeing/what was McDonnell Douglas/Northrup should have LOTS of YF-23A data from which to work, and there's a reason it is still classified nearly 30 years later. Every other approach either comes up short or costs way too much to develop from scratch. Think about it. You retain the basic shape of the Black Widow, scale up and stuff its guts with fuel, weapons and sensors. Many of which are either already in use or should be maturing about the time it's ready (I'm thinking F-35 related sensors and initially the 120D and later the new BVR missiles being worked on). Pratt and GE already working on advanced derivatives of the F-119/F-120/F-135.

To me, that just makes a lot of sense...

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 20 Oct 2018, 13:52
by mixelflick
p.s. Eagle/Flanker/Falcon/Typhoon/Rafale are all the same generation

But the Eagle wen't to service 30 years earlier than it's contemporaries. the F-15 was ahead of its time, just like how the F-22 is now.

Amazing, isn't it?

Of all the legacy birds, the F-15 is the most successful IMO. You certainly can't argue with it's air to air combat record. It inherently has great range, speed, great payload and lots of space for radar/sensors etc.. And God knows that's why Israel likes it so much. Even all these years later, it has tremendous thrust to weight ratio, absurd acceleration and a very respectable turn radius. I think it's an absolute shame we only fly around 200 now, at least in its air superiority version. If we really need them, 200 F-15E's in the air to air role are a nice supplement.

And the factory fresh F-15's rolling off production lines for Saudi Arabia, Quatar etc. are a sight to behold. Woe to the enemy who comes up against one of these F-15 4 ships... no matter what they're flying.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 21 Oct 2018, 12:45
by element1loop
sferrin wrote:
element1loop wrote:
sferrin wrote:So far this is my favorite concept:


Suspect having the pit open to photons will be a problem.


Not sure what you mean here. The canopy is not transparent to RF. (Those fancy coatings you see on canopies are coatings to prevent radar seeing inside.) They could also include layers for laser protection but that probably has power limits.


Sorry, I didn't see this earlier.

Yes, but degradation of the layers will probably be very rapid with illumination, especially if several are coordinated to illuminate at once. LO properties degraded, if not gone, fast. Pilot? Probably not good. Currently it's the case of get a lock to what's hard to lock up, but with lasers all that's need is to see the outline with a sensor and point. It will be sudden and can be sustained. One way around it is to simply to replace the transparent canopy with a solid surface that's resistant to energy attacks and rely on DAS and software for visual and instrument control. But DAS would likewise need to resist degradation and stealth plus sensor range again becomes more important. Interesting thing about the design you highlighter is it suggests a two-seat.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 21 Oct 2018, 17:33
by sferrin
element1loop wrote:Yes, but degradation of the layers will probably be very rapid with illumination, especially if several are coordinated to illuminate at once. LO properties degraded, if not gone, fast. Pilot? Probably not good. Currently it's the case of get a lock to what's hard to lock up, but with lasers all that's need is to see the outline with a sensor and point. It will be sudden and can be sustained. One way around it is to simply to replace the transparent canopy with a solid surface that's resistant to energy attacks and rely on DAS and software for visual and instrument control. But DAS would likewise need to resist degradation and stealth plus sensor range again becomes more important. Interesting thing about the design you highlighter is it suggests a two-seat.


There was an old UK concept floating around that had the pilot submerged in the aircraft for this very reason. Will see if I can dig it up later.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 22 Oct 2018, 09:22
by zero-one
mixelflick wrote:
It leaves us with a YF-23 like starting point, IMO. It more closely matches the known PCA requirements of greater stealth and range (at least relative to the F-22). It has "enough" maneuverability, would make an ideal long range escort and (if scaled up), it will carry "enough" weapons and fuel.


There are a few things I don't like with a YF-23 resurrection idea.

The YF-23 is widely accepted as faster and has better range and stealth.

Range: The YF-22's listed range of ~700NM isn't really in orders of magnitude inferior to the YF-23's ~750 NM combat radius. Yes the Production model has even less range at ~530 NM but part of it was because the F-22 gained some 10,000 lbs more with all the avionics and sensors added. I know there were some air-frame changes but we'll get to that later.

In all, I don't believe Northrop could have kept the weight of the Production model the same as the prototype, the YF-23 would have lost some range as well once it gained weight.

Speed: Lockheed decided to make airframe changes to the Production F-22. As a result they can now match the YF-23's speed advantages without having the canopy cracking issues. However Range was considerably affected.

I don't know if this was a DOD instruction or if it was something that Lockheed just wanted to do because they did't want to be labeled as making the "slower plane". They would match the YF-23's speed and still meet the minimum range requirements.

Stealth: This is the what I don't know, would the F-23 be incredibly more stealthy than the F-22 like -70db or would it only be slightly more stealthy like -45 db or something.

Reliability In the YF-23's Wiki page it says the YF-22 was also rated higher on "Technical aspects" and has less risk which could translate to better reliability and sortie generation. No further elaboration was given

F-22 and hypothetical F-23 Conclusion
Speed : Tie
Maneuverability: F-22
Weapons carrying: F-22
Range: F-23
Stealth: Probably within the same ball park
Maintenance and operational cost: F-22

These are only my conclusions, feel free to dispute this if you will.

Resurrecting the YF-23 can also be viewed as an admission that they made the wrong decision back in the ATF program.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 22 Oct 2018, 10:47
by marsavian
Resurrecting the YF-23 can also be viewed as an admission that they made the wrong decision back in the ATF program.


Not really because PCA is more an ASF (Advanced Strategic Fighter).

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 22 Oct 2018, 22:24
by XanderCrews
zero-one wrote:
mixelflick wrote:Resurrecting the YF-23 can also be viewed as an admission that they made the wrong decision back in the ATF program.



Even if true, so what? Decision is from 1991, how many of those shot callers have been out of the military for decades??

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 22 Oct 2018, 22:32
by hythelday
zero-one wrote:Resurrecting the YF-23 can also be viewed as an admission that they made the wrong decision back in the ATF program.


The whole South China Sea/Pacific A2AD problem did not exist in the time of ATF. It was supposed to slaughter Flankers and Fulcrums over European theater of battle, China at that time had neither blue water navy, let alone CVs, nor impressive air force; J-7s hardly required a Raptor. Do not make it about "muh superior Black Widow", it's just too far removed from reality.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 23 Oct 2018, 08:21
by zero-one
Granted that the YF-23 did have better range, but it wasn't really all that much. the YF-22 was just a little shy of 700 NM.
Most sources peg the YF-23 at 750 - 800 NM which is good but still not enough for a Pacific Theater, albeit it will reduce the reliance on tankers somewhat.

But before we think that a hypothetical F-23 will sport 800NM, remember that the prototype YF-23 only weighed 29,000 lbs empty, yup the same as the F-35A. Can they manager to keep the weight the same with a production variant.

Heres another tidbit from Wiki

YF-23 wrote:The two YF-23s flew 50 times for a total of 65.2 hours.


YF-22 wrote:74 flights were completed and 91.6 airborne hours were accumulated.


It's clear that the YF-22 can accumulate more hours and generate more sorties. A lot more. With the current fleet of F-22's already having the lowest readiness rate of any USAF fighter (49%). It seems like a hypothetical F-23 will have even lower readiness rates and sortie generation rates.

That slight range advantage is even less attractiveif you can't fly at all.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 23 Oct 2018, 09:44
by marsavian
You don't know the context of why less sorties/flight hours were flown for the YF-23 prototype, may have been planned, and the sample set is too small to make extrapolations to production availability. F-22 current ready rate has some bearing with stealth maintenance, any new YF-23 derived model would already be on top of this parameter.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 23 Oct 2018, 10:05
by zero-one
marsavian wrote:You don't know the context of why less sorties/flight hours were flown for the YF-23 prototype, may have been planned, and the sample set is too small to make extrapolations to production availability.


Well its not only that but my earlier post did quote that the YF-22 was superior in "Technical aspects" and was considered a lower risk option.

So:
-More flights
-More flight hours
-Superior in "technical aspects"
-Lower risk

I know it's not conclusive evidence, but I can argue that the YF-22 is more reliable.

marsavian wrote: F-22 current ready rate has some bearing with stealth maintenance, any new YF-23 derived model would already be on top of this parameter.


True, but wouldn't it be cheaper to simply upgrade the existing F-22 coatings to F-35 standards, they're actually doing that already. Thats a lot cheaper and easier than restarting the YF-23. I reckon that restarting the F-22 line is also cheaper than resurrecting the YF-23.

And remember, all we get from a resurrected YF-23 is a slight range advantage. Lockheed already matched the YF-23's speed albeit at the cost of less range

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 23 Oct 2018, 10:17
by marsavian
It will all come down to requirements. How much range and stealth does the USAF want for its PCA but the clue is in the name, penetrating, which implies load of both. The F-22/YF-23 would only be starting points if they were used but would obviously need scaling up. With two 50 klb engines you could afford to have a lot more fuel and still arrive over the combat area with a good thrust/weight ratio (around unity) but that implies a bigger plane than the ATF. Ultimately it's not about cost or ressurecting the ATF for the 21st century but using current technology to build for the new requirement even if you learn from previous designs, after all they haven't resurrected the B-2 and modernized it to make the B-21 which is about the closest analogy to what you are suggesting should happen with updated F-22 => PCA.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 23 Oct 2018, 14:49
by mixelflick
Couple of things...

I can't recall if I made the "Resurrecting the YF-23A would be admitting USAF error in selecting the F-22" comment. If it wasn't me though, I wish it was. I think that's a fair political point. Anyway...

The fact the production F-22 is as fast/faster than the YF-23A.... how do we know? I keep going back to a youtube comment about the YF-23A being "A LOT" faster. Since the YF-22A's top supercruise speed was cited at Mach 1.25, it depends what your take on "a LOT" means. Is mach 1.8 "a LOT" faster than mach 1.25? To some I'm sure it is, and to some I'm sure it isn't. In any case, I'm glad they got to mach 1.8 or thereabouts. I'm not sure what would have bought back the YF-22A's stated range of 700nm. Has all available internal space been used for fuel or is there growth potential there? Frankly, I find it odd that the YF-23A's stated range was just 750-800nm, especially considering it weighed a mere 29,000lbs with those big motors and no external stores. Then again, if the entire mission could be flown in supercruise (as claimed), 750-800nm is mighty impressive..

Anyway, great discussion. I still feel the YF-23's size, shape etc is the best logical starting point for PCA. Unless they do a wholesale departure from fighter shape, going for something like a flying wing. That's entirely possible given the stated requirements, and even likely given current design strengths (by far the lowest drag/highest lift of any aircraft shape). They may have found something else that works better. I guess we won't know until we see it.

Anticipation though, is a fun exercise... :)

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 23 Oct 2018, 15:59
by disconnectedradical
YF-22 best supercruise with YF119 was 1.43 and with YF120 was Mach 1.58, YF-23 with YF120 was 1.6+ but how much faster is not known.

Also, big part of why F-22 drag is lower than YF-22 because rear fuselage shape is much slimmer so better area ruling in the rear. But that also reduced volume which means less fuel especially since two fuel tanks are in rear fuselage.
Image

If you compare F-23 and YF-23 drawings you see that F-23 didn't lose much volume from YF-23. So most likely F-23 would not lose much range over YF-23. So I don't know why zero-one is trying to downplay YF-23 range advantage. Just look at drawings and diagrams (many are publicly available) and its easy to show a notable difference. Maybe less F-22 fanboying? I now F-22 is great and it's the best fighter currently but F-23 probably was better for how USAF wants to use the ATF.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 23 Oct 2018, 16:59
by mixelflick
That's a great point.... for how the USAF want's to use the ATF.

How much of the Flanker's post stall stuff drove USAF decision making? I'm sure nobody would ever admit to it, but the effect is strong in the general population - I don't think the USAF is totally immune. They perhaps even found some interesting stuff out in the Area 51 Flanker vs. Viper (and I'm sure other USAF assets) tests.

The stealth BVR mantra, improved AMRAAM derivatives and certainly the 9x should have entirely negated any Flanker's post stall advantages.

What's the possibility though, it didn't?

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 23 Oct 2018, 17:04
by zero-one
disconnectedradical wrote:I don't know why zero-one is trying to downplay YF-23 range advantage.


Okay first off, I'm not downplaying anything. Cause it wasn't all that big to begin with

RANGE
The YF-22's combat radius is 700 NM
The YF-23's combat radius is 750-800 NM

Winner: YF-23
albeit not by a whole lot

Super-cruise Speed
YF-22: Mach 1.58
YF-23: Mach 1.6 (Sources claim Mach 1.8+ but canopy cracks)

Winner: YF-23

If you're Lockheed, you might be thinking, we're beaten in 2 major categories, probably 3 if you include Stealth.
So you decide to match the Speed of the YF-23 at the cost of range.

Now, I don't know if this was supported by the DOD or if Lockheed simply opted to lower the Range margin in favor of more speed.

Why? Remember, Metz said Northrop gave the AF what they needed but Lockheed gave them what they really wanted.
Holding 60 degrees AOA, firing missiles and doing eye watering maneuvers that were all not necessary in the DEMVAL to impress Air combat command made up of F-15 pilots.

It wouldn't surprise me if behind closed doors, the ACC said, "Well the 22 is more agile but the 23 is faster" then Lockheed butts in and says, we can guarantee you that if we win, we'll match the speed too. Of course we'll need to cut down the legs a bit, but it'll still have a 500 NM radius. You guys will have the fastest most agile bird in town.
Besides, its easy to add range when you have the biggest tanker fleet in history, but you can't add more speed or more maneuverability to an airplane.

So the F-22 is every bit as fast as the YF-23 was. So really the only advantage of the YF-23 over Lockheed is Range.

However, I have doubts if the production variant of the YF-23 can reach the range figures of the prototype as well. If you can prove that Northrop can somehow keep the weight of the production variant as low as the weight of the prototype
OR
that weight will not have any effect on the production variant's range, then I rest my case.
The YF-23 weighed 29,000 lbs

I have no doubt that a hypothetical F-23 will have more range than the F-22, but
There is no way they could have kept that range figure once the weight went up.
It's not gona be 750 NM, its probably closer to 650 or something.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 23 Oct 2018, 17:15
by element1loop
Stalling is not good. Stalling sucks. Flankers stall so much because they're heavy, draggy and under-powered. Sukhoi marketing decided this was a highly desirable 'feature', as opposed to a tragic immature-technology 'bug'. But of course any Flanker pilot would much prefer to have more engine power and be further from stalling, more often.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 23 Oct 2018, 17:44
by mixelflick
element1loop wrote:Stalling is not good. Stalling sucks. Flankers stall so much because they're heavy, draggy and under-powered. Sukhoi marketing decided this was a highly desirable 'feature', as opposed to a tragic immature-technology 'bug'. But of course any Flanker pilot would much prefer to have more engine power and be further from stalling, more often.


Sukhoi has succeeded wildly then (turning this "con" into a "pro"). Really, you have to hand it to them. To this day, people will refer to the SU-35 as unquestionably the best dogfighter ever made..

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 23 Oct 2018, 23:21
by charlielima223
All this mention and talk about the YF-23 finally led me to conclude this trend of thought...

THE YF-23 LOST... GET OVER IT

All this talk about the YF-23 and what it MIGHT have been is pretty much all guess work and hypothetical. Also using an artist's depiction of a CONCEPTUAL design of a hypothetical future fighter aircraft, IS NOT PROOF that the YF-23 should have won or is superior.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 23 Oct 2018, 23:54
by marsavian
mixelflick wrote:
element1loop wrote:Stalling is not good. Stalling sucks. Flankers stall so much because they're heavy, draggy and under-powered. Sukhoi marketing decided this was a highly desirable 'feature', as opposed to a tragic immature-technology 'bug'. But of course any Flanker pilot would much prefer to have more engine power and be further from stalling, more often.


Sukhoi has succeeded wildly then (turning this "con" into a "pro"). Really, you have to hand it to them. To this day, people will refer to the SU-35 as unquestionably the best dogfighter ever made..


Useful post-stall handling is good to have when you run out of energy and F-22/F-35/F-18 have it too but the Su-35 has it in all dimensions making pointing in any direction in a stall a quick affair but conversely it does tend to lose more energy. Flankers turn well too in normal mode. It may not be unquestionably the best dogfighter but it is certainly one of them.

The good thing though about the F-35 is it can hang with the Su-35 in this post-stall regime which is quite an achievement and more impressive than its conventional turn performance which isn't bad either. It still amazes me how LMT delivered on all the wide requirements for so many customers and delivered well for them all. Consider only the partial success of F-111 when it tried this.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 24 Oct 2018, 01:25
by wrightwing
marsavian wrote:
mixelflick wrote:
element1loop wrote:Stalling is not good. Stalling sucks. Flankers stall so much because they're heavy, draggy and under-powered. Sukhoi marketing decided this was a highly desirable 'feature', as opposed to a tragic immature-technology 'bug'. But of course any Flanker pilot would much prefer to have more engine power and be further from stalling, more often.


Sukhoi has succeeded wildly then (turning this "con" into a "pro"). Really, you have to hand it to them. To this day, people will refer to the SU-35 as unquestionably the best dogfighter ever made..


Useful post-stall handling is good to have when you run out of energy and F-22/F-35/F-18 have it too but the Su-35 has it in all dimensions making pointing in any direction in a stall a quick affair but conversely it does tend to lose more energy. Flankers turn well too in normal mode. It may not be unquestionably the best dogfighter but it is certainly one of them.

The good thing though about the F-35 is it can hang with the Su-35 in this post-stall regime which is quite an achievement and more impressive than its conventional turn performance which isn't bad either. It still amazes me how LMT delivered on all the wide requirements for so many customers and delivered well for them all. Consider only the partial success of F-111 when it tried this.


The F-35 can hang in pre and post stall areas of the envelope.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 24 Oct 2018, 02:15
by element1loop
mixelflick wrote:Sukhoi has succeeded wildly then (turning this "con" into a "pro"). Really, you have to hand it to them. To this day, people will refer to the SU-35 as unquestionably the best dogfighter ever made..


No I don't. They designed and built an under powered jet that stalled a lot. No fly-by-wire, so they tweaked the design to recover better as they'd probably end up doing that a lot. So marketing claims it fights even better when stalled. OK, via a HOBS WVR missile. Has it won a lot of gunfights doing this? No. Has it won a lot of gunfights per-sec? No. Has it won a lot of WVR HOBS fights? No. Will it? No. It will however eat a missile faster than the average dude can liberate a bowl of nachos. Idealizing a jet because it's a superior staller in combat is not my idea of a strong-point. They spent the last 30 years trying to get it to stall a lot less, while the fanbois talked-up the 'unambiguously good' benefits of stalling a lot, while in close combat.

:mrgreen:

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 24 Oct 2018, 07:53
by zero-one
mixelflick wrote:Sukhoi has succeeded wildly then (turning this "con" into a "pro"). Really, you have to hand it to them. To this day, people will refer to the SU-35 as unquestionably the best dogfighter ever made..


Mostly only the fanboys think this way.
The F-22 has a higher T/W ratio, much better drag profile, lower wing loading and higher pitch rates in the TVC.
The only advantage of the Su-35 is better yaw rates post stall.
Though the F-22's canted tails allow it to capture the high pressures produced from the forward fuselage chines allowing yaw control at very low air speeds at high AOA. Though not as good as Yaw 3D TVC

But thats it, thats the only advantage of the Su-35, post stall Yaw.

element1loop wrote:as it won a lot of gunfights doing this? No. Has it won a lot of gunfights per-sec? No. Has it won a lot of WVR HOBS fights? No. Will it? No. It will however eat a missile faster than the average dude can liberate a bowl of nachos. Idealizing a jet because it's a superior staller in combat is not my idea of a strong-point.


well to be fair, HOBS shots have not won anything yet as well, so far all we have are theories and test models that tell us this should work

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 24 Oct 2018, 08:51
by element1loop
:salute:

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 24 Oct 2018, 09:28
by eloise
zero-one wrote:Mostly only the fanboys think this way.
The F-22 has a higher T/W ratio, much better drag profile, lower wing loading and higher pitch rates in the TVC.
The only advantage of the Su-35 is better yaw rates post stall.
Though the F-22's canted tails allow it to capture the high pressures produced from the forward fuselage chines allowing yaw control at very low air speeds at high AOA. Though not as good as Yaw 3D TVC

But thats it, thats the only advantage of the Su-35, post stall Yaw.


didn't Su-35 have higher T/w ratio?

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 24 Oct 2018, 09:59
by zero-one
^^ In their dreams

The Su-35 empty weight used to be listed as 40,000+ lbs in Wikipedia, but they changed it to 37,000+ lbs, however it says "citation needed".

The Drive.com mentions it at 40,000+ lbs as well,
http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/12 ... w-air-show
Google has it at 38,500

So with that we will use the 40,000+ pound empty weight, just because it was more often used. Now the AL-31F on the Su-35 is rated at 63,800 lbs max. That gives her a Max T/W ratio at 1.6 at empty weights.

The F-22, with its universally accepted 43,340 pound empty weight has a T/W ratio of 1.62 at empty weights.

Now consider that the Su-35 has a larger internal fuel tank which means it will carry more fuel 25,000 lbs to the F-22's 18,000 lbs,
the standard missile load out of the Su-35 in also much larger, 10 to 12 missiles for a CAP mission for the F-22's 8 missile standard load out. Russian missiles are also heavier. the R-77 weighs 390 lbs to the AMRAAM's 335 lbs

So no way will the Su-35 have a higher T/W ratio than the Raptor.
In fact the F-22 still holds the title of having the highest T/W ratio of any combat aircraft ever created

(correct me if I'm wrong on that, I only checked against popular energy fighters i.e. F-16, Mig-29, Su-35, etc)

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 24 Oct 2018, 11:46
by marsavian
F-15E (without CFT and -229) and Typhoon have higher thrust/empty weight ratios, 1.8 and 1.67.

p.s. also what about Su-35 post-stall TVC roll rate, F-22 only does pitch with its nozzles.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 24 Oct 2018, 11:50
by element1loop
These figures are from an early 2015 wiki page.

Specifications (Su-35S)

Empty weight: 18,400 kg (40,570 lb)
Loaded weight: 25,300 kg (56,660 lb) at 50% internal fuel [right away this doesn't add up ... define 'empty']
Thrust/weight: 1.13 at 50% fuel (0.92 with full internal fuel) [wrong, it's 1.007 @ 50% fuel and 0.957 @100% fuel, no weapons]
Powerplant: 2 × Saturn 117S (AL-41F1S) afterburning turbofan with 3D thrust vectoring nozzle
Dry thrust: 8,800 kgf (86.3 kN, 19,400 lbf) each
Thrust with afterburner: 14,500 kgf (142 kN, 31,900 lbf) each
Fuel capacity: 11,500 kg (25,400 lb) internally [now with added magic unicorns]


Frankly I think Su35 ‘specs’ are all suspect. I’d like to know how they claim to have increased internal fuel of Su35 over the Su27 by 4,676 lb when they’re virtually the same shape externally? They claim to somehow have found room for 2/3 of an F-16’s internal load, within the same airframe shape as the Su27? If someone told you the internal fuel of the F-15C had been increased by 3,500 lb over an F-15A, would you believe it?

Dry Thrust T:W Ratio 100% fuel (armed as below) = 0.510
Afterburning T:W Ratio 100% fuel (armed as below) = 0.839

9A1-4071K (GSh-301) 150x30mm
2 x R-73E/M
4 x R-77M
2 x BETAB-500 freefall
2 x Kh-29L-T 12km TV A2S
2 x Kh-31P/A 160km Anti Ship
2 x Kh-59ME 200km TV Cruise
L265 Khibiny-M EW pod


Somehow each year the wiki Su35 gets lighter! Not surprisingly the numbers have never added up (a week from now that page will have been edited so it all adds up though :wink: ).

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 24 Oct 2018, 12:23
by zero-one
marsavian wrote:F-15E (without CFT and -229) and Typhoon have higher thrust/empty weight ratios, 1.8 and 1.66.


O I did my test on combat configurations. I was so confident on the F-22's advantage on the Su-35 that I decided to start even at empty weights. The F-22 could be at a disadvantage at empty weights against Lightweight fighters. But those things aren't allowed to fly without EFTs so.....

marsavian wrote:p.s. also what about Su-35 post-stall TVC roll rate, F-22 only does pitch with its nozzles.

[quote]

hmmmm maybe

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 24 Oct 2018, 13:52
by zero-one
element1loop wrote:
Frankly I think Su35 ‘specs’ are all suspect. I’d like to know how they claim to have increased internal fuel of Su35 over the Su27 by 4,676 lb when they’re virtually the same shape externally?


Smaller Computer boxes maybe. 80's computers were hughe, specially Russian ones

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 24 Oct 2018, 14:19
by element1loop
zero-one wrote:
element1loop wrote:
Frankly I think Su35 ‘specs’ are all suspect. I’d like to know how they claim to have increased internal fuel of Su35 over the Su27 by 4,676 lb when they’re virtually the same shape externally?


Smaller Computer boxes maybe. 80's computers were hughe, specially Russian ones


4,676 lb of JP5 @ ISA is 714.7 US Gal!

Have you seen how big a 44 Imp gallon drum is? They Russians are claiming they have found space within that Su35 airframe for 16.2 of those drums! No, it's not "computer boxes", it's bullshit.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 24 Oct 2018, 15:25
by sprstdlyscottsmn
They eliminated the dorsal speed-brake and all the associated equipment. That would allow for a large percent of the increase.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 24 Oct 2018, 15:34
by zero-one
:lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

Dahaha, yeah I think so too.

But we don't know,
stronger materials may have allowed them to make structures thinner or hollow I heard one dude say that even the H-Stabs have fuel inside.

The Su-35 has no dedicated air-break so the structure, Hydraulics, all other components are gone.

So:
-Smaller cmputers
-Hollow/less structural components
-no dedicated air brake

equals 4,000 lbs more fuel,

Are we buying it???

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 24 Oct 2018, 16:17
by element1loop
zero-one wrote:So:
-Smaller cmputers
-Hollow/less structural components
-no dedicated air brake

equals 4,000 lbs more fuel,

Are we buying it???


4,700 lb, and no, we are not. :mrgreen:

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 24 Oct 2018, 16:21
by sprstdlyscottsmn
The F-15C has 2,000 more pounds of fuel than the A and it did not lose the dorsal brake. Don't be so dismissive.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 24 Oct 2018, 16:40
by zero-one
^^ OW this looks promising.
F-22/35 Hybrid can realistically have a 20,000+ pound fuel capacity, would 23,000 be pushing it?
:mrgreen:

Now add ADVENT.

800 NM range anyone?

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 24 Oct 2018, 20:46
by eloise
zero-one wrote:^^ In their dreams

The Su-35 empty weight used to be listed as 40,000+ lbs in Wikipedia, but they changed it to 37,000+ lbs, however it says "citation needed".

The Drive.com mentions it at 40,000+ lbs as well,
http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/12 ... w-air-show
Google has it at 38,500

So with that we will use the 40,000+ pound empty weight, just because it was more often used. Now the AL-31F on the Su-35 is rated at 63,800 lbs max. That gives her a Max T/W ratio at 1.6 at empty weights.

The F-22, with its universally accepted 43,340 pound empty weight has a T/W ratio of 1.62 at empty weights.

Now consider that the Su-35 has a larger internal fuel tank which means it will carry more fuel 25,000 lbs to the F-22's 18,000 lbs,
the standard missile load out of the Su-35 in also much larger, 10 to 12 missiles for a CAP mission for the F-22's 8 missile standard load out. Russian missiles are also heavier. the R-77 weighs 390 lbs to the AMRAAM's 335 lbs

So no way will the Su-35 have a higher T/W ratio than the Raptor.
In fact the F-22 still holds the title of having the highest T/W ratio of any combat aircraft ever created

(correct me if I'm wrong on that, I only checked against popular energy fighters i.e. F-16, Mig-29, Su-35, etc)

You have to compare their T/W with the same load out and combat radius. Your comparison is like someone compare a 50% fuel clean F-16 to 50% fuel full internal load F-35. In short, not a fair comparison

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 24 Oct 2018, 21:32
by sprstdlyscottsmn
I'm a fan of similar fuel fractions myself. Oh BTW Syria showed us that the actual typical combat loadout for an Su-35S is two R-73, two R-77, and two R-27ER, with wingtip ECM. Only fanboys go for the 12 AAM load.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 24 Oct 2018, 21:46
by zero-one
eloise wrote:
You have to compare their T/W with the same load out and combat radius. Your comparison is like someone compare a 50% fuel clean F-16 to 50% fuel full internal load F-35. In short, not a fair comparison


When comparing the heavy weight fighters, I actually don't mind the 50% fuel comparison. Cause unlike the F-16 which is pretty much RTB at 50%, planes like the Raptor, Flanker and F-35 are the only ones who can stay and fight while at 50%.

They ate also allowed to go into combat without EFTs due to their immense range. Say what you will ahout the F-22's legs but fact is, she has the longest legs of any Western air superiority fighter on internal fuel. Am I wrong to say that?

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 25 Oct 2018, 07:08
by hornetfinn
zero-one wrote:^^ In their dreams

The Su-35 empty weight used to be listed as 40,000+ lbs in Wikipedia, but they changed it to 37,000+ lbs, however it says "citation needed".

The Drive.com mentions it at 40,000+ lbs as well,
http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/12 ... w-air-show
Google has it at 38,500

So with that we will use the 40,000+ pound empty weight, just because it was more often used. Now the AL-31F on the Su-35 is rated at 63,800 lbs max. That gives her a Max T/W ratio at 1.6 at empty weights.

The F-22, with its universally accepted 43,340 pound empty weight has a T/W ratio of 1.62 at empty weights.


Su-35 uses AL-41F-1S (article 117S) engine and that 14,500 kgf or 31,900 lbf is in "Special power conditions". Full afterburner military thrust is 14,000 kgf or 30,800 lbf. I'd say that latter number is comparable to full AB thrust in other fighters. It seems like Su-35 is pretty equal or even slightly inferior to Dassault Rafale in T/W ratio in both dry thrust or AB thrust. Of course it depends on actual empty weight of the jet, but I've not seen anything that would point Su-35 being exceptionally powerful compared to Dassault Rafale, EF Typhoon or F-35, let alone F-22. All of them seem to have a lot of power and thrust would not be deciding factor between them.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 25 Oct 2018, 08:34
by eloise
zero-one wrote:When comparing the heavy weight fighters, I actually don't mind the 50% fuel comparison. Cause unlike the F-16 which is pretty much RTB at 50%, planes like the Raptor, Flanker and F-35 are the only ones who can stay and fight while at 50%.

Su-35 at 50% fuel can fly a lot longer than Raptor at 50% fuel, so that isn't a fair comparison.


zero-one wrote:Say what you will ahout the F-22's legs but fact is, she has the longest legs of any Western air superiority fighter on internal fuel. Am I wrong to say that?

air superiority is a bit vague, do you considered F-15E or Rafale or F-35 or F-18E/F as air superiority? If not then there aren't many aircraft in the first place. Do you consider CFT as internal? why eliminate Russian contemporary fighters like Su-35 or Su-57 or Chinese fighter like J-20?. Do we count interceptor like Mig-31? ..etc

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 25 Oct 2018, 16:30
by mixelflick
Interesting design philosophy concerning internal fuel.

The F-22 was designed with less than YF-22A, with the idea of the US having a large tanker fleet. The Russians don't, so the SU-35's internal fuel is 25,000, or 7,000lbs more than the Raptor.

Then again, the Raptor's clean lines and low drag may offset some of this range advantage vs. the draggier Sukhoi airframe, and that's before you hang those AAM's with big honking fins off its wings. Still, 7.000lbs is a lot of extra fuel. Could this work against it though in the event it's in a dogfight earlier in its mission vs. later?

If memory serves, prior Flanker variations were g limited when flying with anything more than 60% internal fuel. Is the same true for the Raptor, or is it a fully 9g capable airframe when combat loaded?

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 26 Oct 2018, 11:31
by sferrin
mixelflick wrote:Interesting design philosophy concerning internal fuel.

The F-22 was designed with less than YF-22A, with the idea of the US having a large tanker fleet. The Russians don't, so the SU-35's internal fuel is 25,000, or 7,000lbs more than the Raptor.

Then again, the Raptor's clean lines and low drag may offset some of this range advantage vs. the draggier Sukhoi airframe, and that's before you hang those AAM's with big honking fins off its wings. Still, 7.000lbs is a lot of extra fuel. Could this work against it though in the event it's in a dogfight earlier in its mission vs. later?

If memory serves, prior Flanker variations were g limited when flying with anything more than 60% internal fuel. Is the same true for the Raptor, or is it a fully 9g capable airframe when combat loaded?


Interestingly, the YF-22 had about 25,000lbs of fuel. The F-22A was slimmed down considerably. The YF-23 had about 23,000lbs of fuel.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 26 Oct 2018, 16:14
by mixelflick
sferrin wrote:
mixelflick wrote:Interesting design philosophy concerning internal fuel.

The F-22 was designed with less than YF-22A, with the idea of the US having a large tanker fleet. The Russians don't, so the SU-35's internal fuel is 25,000, or 7,000lbs more than the Raptor.

Then again, the Raptor's clean lines and low drag may offset some of this range advantage vs. the draggier Sukhoi airframe, and that's before you hang those AAM's with big honking fins off its wings. Still, 7.000lbs is a lot of extra fuel. Could this work against it though in the event it's in a dogfight earlier in its mission vs. later?

If memory serves, prior Flanker variations were g limited when flying with anything more than 60% internal fuel. Is the same true for the Raptor, or is it a fully 9g capable airframe when combat loaded?


Interestingly, the YF-22 had about 25,000lbs of fuel. The F-22A was slimmed down considerably. The YF-23 had about 23,000lbs of fuel.


Right, that much I knew. It was slimmed down to improve the area rule, which meant it gained speed. My understanding is LM went to the air force and said, "Something has to give: Speed, Maneuverability or Range... which would you like to go"? And the USAF said range..

It's tempting to think about a somewhat less maneuverable Raptor with longer legs, but in the end I think the Air Force made the right decision. At least given what was known at the time. Unfortunately the Pacific theater's importance vaulted to the forefront, and longer legs became an issue. Having said that, the Raptor's ONLY compromise was range, and it's not like it's short ranged either. The only wildcard now is how effective will Russian/Chinese ultra-long range AAM's be against our tankers/AWACS. I suspect those tankers will be carrying some high end jamming equipment, or otherwise be escorted by jammers. GIven what the EA-18G is capable of, I wonder if... OTOH, they Navy is likely going to need every one of them.

Another reason why the F-35 is so critical... :)

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 27 Oct 2018, 10:22
by zero-one
Lots of good stuff here from you guys.
I hope you wont mind, but I'd love to use some of them when discussing with fanboys.

hornetfinn wrote:Su-35 uses AL-41F-1S (article 117S) engine and that 14,500 kgf or 31,900 lbf is in "Special power conditions". Full afterburner military thrust is 14,000 kgf or 30,800 lbf


Thanks Hornet,
Do you have a link for this,

mixelflick wrote:prior Flanker variations were g limited when flying with anything more than 60% internal fuel.

I always hear this, but do we have a source for this?

eloise wrote:Su-35 at 50% fuel can fly a lot longer than Raptor at 50% fuel, so that isn't a fair comparison.

The point was, a Raptor at 50% fuel is still tactically capable of performing CAP missions. You can't say the same to an F-16 or F-15, even with a Typhoon or Rafale, at 50% you should be heading back to base. the Raptor could possibly still loiter for 30 minutes or so.

air superiority is a bit vague, do you considered F-15E or Rafale or F-35 or F-18E/F as air superiority?

I'm talking about planes that are tasked mainly for air superiority. Can the F-15E and F-16 do that? sure.
But usually they don't, they are mainly used for strike while F-15Cs and F-22s provide top cover.

So when I said "Air superiority fighter" I simply meant aircraft that are used mainly for air superiority not any aircraft that can do air superiority.

why eliminate Russian contemporary fighters like Su-35 or Su-57 or Chinese fighter like J-20?. Do we count interceptor like Mig-31? ..etc


I did say among Western Air superiority fighters the F-22 has the longest legs to drive the point that the F-22's legs are actually quite decent.

mixelflick wrote:The only wildcard now is how effective will Russian/Chinese ultra-long range AAM's be against our tankers/AWACS.


Thats why the Stealth tanker is important. It allows the Raptor and F-35 to remain incredibly viable in the Pacific theater.
In a Hypothetical war with China, Tankers will be placed well within Japanese and Korean protected air space.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 27 Oct 2018, 23:58
by swiss
zero-one wrote:^^ In their dreams

The Su-35 empty weight used to be listed as 40,000+ lbs in Wikipedia, but they changed it to 37,000+ lbs, however it says "citation needed".

The Drive.com mentions it at 40,000+ lbs as well,
http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/12 ... w-air-show
Google has it at 38,500

So with that we will use the 40,000+ pound empty weight, just because it was more often used. Now the AL-31F on the Su-35 is rated at 63,800 lbs max. That gives her a Max T/W ratio at 1.6 at empty weights.

The F-22, with its universally accepted 43,340 pound empty weight has a T/W ratio of 1.62 at empty weights.

Now consider that the Su-35 has a larger internal fuel tank which means it will carry more fuel 25,000 lbs to the F-22's 18,000 lbs,
the standard missile load out of the Su-35 in also much larger, 10 to 12 missiles for a CAP mission for the F-22's 8 missile standard load out. Russian missiles are also heavier. the R-77 weighs 390 lbs to the AMRAAM's 335 lbs

So no way will the Su-35 have a higher T/W ratio than the Raptor.
In fact the F-22 still holds the title of having the highest T/W ratio of any combat aircraft ever created

(correct me if I'm wrong on that, I only checked against popular energy fighters i.e. F-16, Mig-29, Su-35, etc)


According to sukoi the Su-35 has a normal take-off weight of 25.3 tons ( 55,660 lbs) with 5270 kg fuel and 2 RVV-AE ( 175kg) and 2 R-73 (105kg). That would mean the empty weight is over 19 tons (42,000 lbs).

http://www.knaapo.ru/products/su-35/

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 28 Oct 2018, 19:06
by sprstdlyscottsmn
swiss wrote:
According to sukoi the Su-35 has a normal take-off weight of 25.3 tons ( 55,660 lbs) with 5270 kg fuel and 2 RVV-AE ( 175kg) and 2 R-73 (105kg). That would mean the empty weight is over 19 tons (42,000 lbs).

http://www.knaapo.ru/products/su-35/

In the name of honesty, that is not what Sukhoi claims. They do claim that "Nominal" weight, and they do list those weapons, but they do NOT give a fuel load in your source or in the brochure. If you have another source that does indicate that fuel load then by all means share. Until then you are making an assumption on the "Nominal" weight using 46% of the claimed fuel load. That is not an assumption I would make. I DO however assumed that the "Nominal" weight is the 9G Maneuver weight.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 28 Oct 2018, 21:06
by swiss
sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:
swiss wrote:
According to sukoi the Su-35 has a normal take-off weight of 25.3 tons ( 55,660 lbs) with 5270 kg fuel and 2 RVV-AE ( 175kg) and 2 R-73 (105kg). That would mean the empty weight is over 19 tons (42,000 lbs).

http://www.knaapo.ru/products/su-35/

In the name of honesty, that is not what Sukhoi claims. They do claim that "Nominal" weight, and they do list those weapons, but they do NOT give a fuel load in your source or in the brochure. If you have another source that does indicate that fuel load then by all means share. Until then you are making an assumption on the "Nominal" weight using 46% of the claimed fuel load. That is not an assumption I would make. I DO however assumed that the "Nominal" weight is the 9G Maneuver weight.


Normal weight of Su-27 was always with a 5.27 tons of fuel and 4 AAM's. Also the Russian wiki says empty weight of the Su-35 is 19 tons.

https://books.google.ch/books?id=RS8Fz- ... kg&f=false

https://books.google.ch/books?id=Q6xsBw ... kg&f=false

https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Су-35

There was also a site from knaapo or UAC that claim the normal fuel load from the su-35 is 5270kg. Sadly it seems gone.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 29 Oct 2018, 02:54
by eloise
zero-one wrote:The point was, a Raptor at 50% fuel is still tactically capable of performing CAP missions. You can't say the same to an F-16 or F-15, even with a Typhoon or Rafale, at 50% you should be heading back to base. the Raptor could possibly still loiter for 30 minutes or so.

Iam pretty sure Rafale can still operate at 50% fuel, it also has decent fuel load.
The point though is that if Su-35 only need 25-30% fuel to remain in the air the same period of time as F-22, then it is unfair to compare T/W of F-22 and Su-35 at 50% fuel
Similarly, it is unfair to compare T/W of rafale and F-35 both at 50% fuel because F-35 can simply stay a lot longer on the air.

zero-one wrote:I'm talking about planes that are tasked mainly for air superiority. Can the F-15E and F-16 do that? sure.
But usually they don't, they are mainly used for strike while F-15Cs and F-22s provide top cover.
So when I said "Air superiority fighter" I simply meant aircraft that are used mainly for air superiority not any aircraft that can do air superiority

It depend on what kind of aircraft they have, if the airforce only have F-15E or F-16 then iam sure they will be tasked for air superiority.
Or for example: Before the introduction of F-35 then F-18E/F is also tasked for air superiority since aircraft carrier can't carry anything else

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 29 Oct 2018, 02:56
by weasel1962
Well, if one looks at the Su-30MK2 brochure (enter at your own risk)

http://roe.ru/eng/catalog/aerospace-sys ... /su-30mk2/

Its 24,900 kg w 4 AAMs for normal take off weight. Max internal fuel load stated is 9720 kg. Su-35 should be somewhere around that.

Max is 34,500kg minus 8000kg for max weapons, minus 9720 kg for max fuel = 16,780kg for empty weight.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 29 Oct 2018, 03:30
by weasel1962
International F-16 with CFTs and 3 tanks carry ~18k lbs of fuel. At 9k lbs, still 2 hours at cruise from bingo. On CAP, once aggressor spotted, drop tanks = fight starts at full internal fuel with very small added drag from CFTs. That's the whole point of putting CFTs on the F-15Cs as well. 3Xk lbs of fuel, longer afterburners.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 29 Oct 2018, 08:59
by zero-one
eloise wrote:The point though is that if Su-35 only need 25-30% fuel to remain in the air the same period of time as F-22, then it is unfair to compare T/W of F-22 and Su-35 at 50% fuel



Okay, but without a credible Empty weight specification on the Su-35, we can't make a definitive conclusion.
What if we use fixed fuel loads (i.e. 10,000 lbs seems respectable for both) thats 55% for the F-22 and 40% for the Su-35

Is this site credible?
https://www.militaryfactory.com/aircraf ... raft_id=88

Su-35
Empty weight: 40,565 lbs
Fuel load: 10,000 lbs
Weapons load: 2,970 lbs (6 x R-77-1 and 2 x R-74)
Total: 53,535
Max thrust: 63,800
T/W Ratio: 1.19


F-22
Empty weight: 43,340 lbs
Fuel load: 10,000 lbs
Weapons load: 2,286 lbs (6 x Aim-120 and 2 x Aim-9)
Total: 55,626
Max thrust: 70,000
T/W Ratio: 1.25

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 29 Oct 2018, 09:40
by hornetfinn
zero-one wrote:Lots of good stuff here from you guys.
I hope you wont mind, but I'd love to use some of them when discussing with fanboys.

hornetfinn wrote:Su-35 uses AL-41F-1S (article 117S) engine and that 14,500 kgf or 31,900 lbf is in "Special power conditions". Full afterburner military thrust is 14,000 kgf or 30,800 lbf


Thanks Hornet,
Do you have a link for this,


Here are couple:
http://www.knaapo.ru/media/eng/about/pr ... et_eng.pdf (Power plant page 13)
http://roe.ru/eng/catalog/aerospace-sys ... al-41f-1s/
https://flotprom.ru/industry/images/Saturn_eng.pdf

One can't get much more official info than that. Sukhoi themselves say "Special mode" for the highest AB thrust. I'm sure F-35 could state "over 50,000 lbf thrust in Special mode" or whatever it was what F135 has been tested with.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 29 Oct 2018, 15:24
by swiss
weasel1962 wrote:Well, if one looks at the Su-30MK2 brochure (enter at your own risk)

http://roe.ru/eng/catalog/aerospace-sys ... /su-30mk2/

Its 24,900 kg w 4 AAMs for normal take off weight. Max internal fuel load stated is 9720 kg. Su-35 should be somewhere around that.

Max is 34,500kg minus 8000kg for max weapons, minus 9720 kg for max fuel = 16,780kg for empty weight.


Don't now if you see my post on the previous page. But 16.7 tons is to light.

Normal weight of Su-27 was always with a 5.27 tons of fuel and 4 AAM's. Also the Russian wiki says empty weight of the Su-35 is 19 tons.

https://books.google.ch/books?id=RS8Fz- ... kg&f=false

https://books.google.ch/books?id=Q6xsBw ... kg&f=false

https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Су-35


Технические характеристики[править | править код]
Экипаж: 1 человек
Длина: 21,9 м
Размах крыла: 14,75 м
Высота: 5,9 м
Площадь крыла: 62,04 м²
Угол стреловидности по передней кромке: 42°
Шасси: трёхопорное, с передней стойкой, убирающейся против полёта
Масса:
пустого: 19000 кг[источник не указан 1955 дней]
нормальная взлётная масса (2 x Р77 + 2 x Р-73Э): 25300 кг
максимальная взлётная масса: 34500 кг


Finally I found the data sheet from UAC who confirm this also.

http://www.uacrussia.ru/en/aircraft/lin ... t-specific

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 29 Oct 2018, 19:13
by sprstdlyscottsmn
The thing is, those planes, the Su-27 and the Su-30MKI, all have less fuel that what is stated for the Su-35S. The fuel load you list for Nominal is, what, 60% of their max? 50%? I would expect the nominal weight fuel to be the same percentage, not the same weight, given the increase in capacity.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 29 Oct 2018, 22:03
by swiss
sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:The thing is, those planes, the Su-27 and the Su-30MKI, all have less fuel that what is stated for the Su-35S. The fuel load you list for Nominal is, what, 60% of their max? 50%? I would expect the nominal weight fuel to be the same percentage, not the same weight, given the increase in capacity.


You cold be right.

5270kg are 56% from the max fuel weight. That would be 6328 kg for the Su-35 (11,300kg)

Problem is the Su-30MK has a normal Takeoff weight of 24,9 tons. The Su-35 25.3 tons. That would mean the MK is 600 kg lighter
That seems unlikely to me, because the Su-35 has additional fuel tanks and more wingspan.

And im pretty sure i saw an official Data sheet about the Su-35 also with 5270kg fuel load. I really hope can find the page again.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 29 Oct 2018, 23:28
by sprstdlyscottsmn
swiss wrote:5270kg are 56% from the max fuel weight. That would be 6328 kg for the Su-35 (11,300kg)

Problem is the Su-30MK has a normal Takeoff weight of 24,9 tons. The Su-35 25.3 tons. That would mean the MK is 600 kg lighter
That seems unlikely to me, because the Su-35 has additional fuel tanks and more wingspan.

I think you mean the MK would be heavier.

MK 24.9t - 5.27t = 19.63t empty plus weapons and pylons.
35S 25.3t - 6.328t = 18.97t empty plus same weapons and pylons. Remember the MK has a double cockpit and possibly canards depending on model. Also, older electronics and less composites in the airframe, oh and the dorsal speedbrake. It's a big heavy SOB, especially for two 12t class motors.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 30 Oct 2018, 08:35
by zero-one
swiss wrote: the Su-35 has additional fuel tanks and more wingspan.



correct me if I'm wrong but don't all Flanker types use the same exact wing?
In fact I'm under the impression that in a high subsonic energy fight, the baseline Su-27 may be one of the best Flanker variants, 2nd only to the Su-35 while the heavy Su-30 with additional canards will be the worse.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 30 Oct 2018, 10:24
by mmm
For PCA I think going from Guam to 500nm inland into Chinese territory without refueling in highly contested environment is a pretty reasonable requirement. And I don't see adding more fuel or moderate cruise efficiency gained from adaptive engine on an existing fighter is the solution here. You add more fuel you add mass, more mass demands more lift to maintain G performance, means even more mass and drag which drives for more thrust that eats more fuel. You may or may not get the aforementioned range by supersizing a traditional fighter, but even if you do it's clearly not cost effective. Since there are increasingly few numbers of benefits that can be derived from flight performance exclusively, for that hefty price fighter-like flight performance doesn't really confers that much capability in the medium to longer term.

Now I heard the "stealth tanker" argument. I do see a need for such a tanker in the future. But probably not used in a way that the safe return of the entire flight hanging on the success of 2,3 times of refueling, likely conducted over very hostile airspace. Some degree of "supersizing" to existing fighter might reduce the times of refueling somewhat, but you still need to keep in mind the amount of fuel that's required to transfer will not only not reduce, but quite likely increase due of the increase consumption of the "supersized" fighter. And there will still be the question of cost effectiveness. Say even if the risk and complexities are deemed acceptable to refuel in such a way, is it a cost effective approach to achieve the bomber escort range by dramatically increase the size of tanker fleet, with gold plated stealth tanker? I see the stealth tanker as more of a way to maintain the existing tanker orbit at the outer rim of enemy fighter reach, as the less survivable tankers pulled even further back to uncontested areas. The survivability built into them will likely not be meant to penetrate into enemy airspace and refueling right over the top of their heads, but rather to survive the "assassination attempts" by the likes of J-20, the likes of which might find a gap in a fighter sweep. Consider the expected fleet size of short legged tactical aircraft I think KC-Z will have their hands full just feeding them to maintain their current reach already.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 30 Oct 2018, 11:02
by marsavian
If LMT can get a stubby STOVL fighter to maneuver well in a knife fight then they can do the same for a Blackbird sized bird built for ultra stealth and fuel efficient cruising. Let's not limit the aircraft of the future with design expectations/results of the past.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 30 Oct 2018, 16:00
by swiss
sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:I think you mean the MK would be heavier.

MK 24.9t - 5.27t = 19.63t empty plus weapons and pylons.
35S 25.3t - 6.328t = 18.97t empty plus same weapons and pylons. Remember the MK has a double cockpit and possibly canards depending on model. Also, older electronics and less composites in the airframe, oh and the dorsal speedbrake. It's a big heavy SOB, especially for two 12t class motors.


Yes i was meaning the MK.

Convincing arguments. 4 AAM are included in the normal Take-off weight. If you are right, that would mean roughly 18.4t for the Su-35 and 19 tons for the MK.

zero-one wrote:correct me if I'm wrong but don't all Flanker types use the same exact wing?
In fact I'm under the impression that in a high subsonic energy fight, the baseline Su-27 may be one of the best Flanker variants, 2nd only to the Su-35 while the heavy Su-30 with additional canards will be the worse.


The Su-27 up to the Su-30MK have a wing span of 14.7m. The Su-35 has 15.3m.

https://www.webcitation.org/6J6cwo1bR?u ... et_eng.pdf

But indeed, there are also Russian sources who say the Su-35 has 14.7m

http://www.uacrussia.ru/en/aircraft/lin ... t-specific

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 30 Oct 2018, 16:51
by sprstdlyscottsmn
swiss wrote:[
The Su-27 up to the Su-30MK have a wing span of 14.7m. The Su-35 has 15.3m.

https://www.webcitation.org/6J6cwo1bR?u ... et_eng.pdf

But indeed, there are also Russian sources who say the Su-35 has 14.7m

http://www.uacrussia.ru/en/aircraft/lin ... t-specific

Perhaps that is with/without the Khibiny ECM pods? I remember back in the day the F-16 was listed as a 30ft span. 30ft on the money. These days it is listed as 31ft w/o missiles (but with rails).

Just a WAG.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 30 Oct 2018, 17:17
by zero-one
But are they in fact using the exact same wing , there have been claims that the Su-35 has a different Camber than the Su-27.
more fluid dynamic and wind tunnel test improved the overall aerodynamic shape of the 35 compared to earlier flankers and of course, improved fly-by-wire control algorithms.

This is when I claimed that the Su-27 and Su-35 would have nearly identical high G performance at high speeds due to the same aerodynamic shape and similar thrust values.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 30 Oct 2018, 22:20
by swiss
sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:Perhaps that is with/without the Khibiny ECM pods? I remember back in the day the F-16 was listed as a 30ft span. 30ft on the money. These days it is listed as 31ft w/o missiles (but with rails).

Just a WAG.


Could be.

According this german book about the Su-27 "the wing area was increased by extending the wingspan from 14.7 to 15.3m"

Image
Image

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 30 Oct 2018, 23:43
by sprstdlyscottsmn
Hmm, I still see 667ft^2 as the wing area for both.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 31 Oct 2018, 13:58
by mixelflick
Concerning the cover of that German book, SU-27...

Is that not an SU-35?

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 31 Oct 2018, 16:46
by swiss
mixelflick wrote:Concerning the cover of that German book, SU-27...

Is that not an SU-35?


Yes it is. But the Su-35 is still a (upgraded) Su-27.

BTW Here is a Data sheet from the T10 up to the Su-35. there is at least 1 tipo. :wink:

Image

Image
sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:Hmm, I still see 667ft^2 as the wing area for both.


Thats indeed strange. So your guess about the Khibiny ECM pods seems to be a good explanation.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 01 Nov 2018, 15:53
by mixelflick
Being the penultimate rendition of the Flanker, the SU-35 is one interesting bird.

They're apparently enthralled with "super-maneuverability". It's common to all of their designs post Mig-29, 'cept for the Mig-35 Russia herself will be buying. Still, the option is there for export models. It's hard to say if in this age of HOBS missiles why they see it that way, perhaps they're as big a fan of said "super-maneuverability" as their youtube fans?

The Flanker is widely regarded as a decidedly dangerous WVR foe, yet one aspect that's little discussed is its size. If the F-15 is the flying tennis court, what could be said of the SU-35? You're certainly not going to lose sight of it in a furball, that's for sure. It's interesting that the only air to air combat data we have on it (SU-27's) showed abysmal BVR results, and WVR apparently trounced the Mig-29's flown against it.

It also sports some signature reduction effort, bringing the HUGE RCS of earlier Flankers to a smaller level. Not sure how much that'll matter given its enormous starting point. Then again, it's RCS is probably much smaller than an F-15's. Given their proliferation, it's curious the platform hasn't engaged in more combat. The relatively small number of SU-35's that Russia/China possess is another mark against it, I wonder how effective it can be in such small numbers.

Overall I feel the Flanker mystique is just that. In actual combat, we may discover that it just isn't the threat everyone thought it would be. Sort of like the Mig-29. Only a healthy dose of air combat would tell us. I sure would like to know the results of those Flanker/F-16 dogfights over area 51...

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 01 Nov 2018, 16:53
by element1loop
swiss wrote:There was also a site from knaapo or UAC that claim the normal fuel load from the su-35 is 5270kg. Sadly it seems gone.


And that would start to make some more sense (11,618 lb normal), thus trading fuel for T:W agility, and acceleration performance. No point carrying extra fuel all the time if you don't need it, and just have to trim it out and use more as a result.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 01 Nov 2018, 18:27
by zero-one
@mixelflick

Fair points there.
When I go to internet forums like this one, there is a notion that Western fighters are BVR oriented while Russian fighters are WVR oriented. Hence Russian fighters are better for WVR and the western fighters are better for BVR.

I call the whole thing baloney. This is not a video game that needs to be balanced. Both the West and Russia want to be superior in all aspects. Thing is, the West has the money to spend and buy itself a plane that has the best of all worlds while Russia doesn't. It's easy to see why the West has better BVR fighters. Stealth, better Sensors, better weapons, data links etc.

But when it comes to WVR, a lot of people automatically point to the Russians. Why? 3D TVC. thats the holy grail of WVR combat to a lot of people. But in reality it just reflects the difference in WVR philosophies of the 2 sides.

http://aviationweek.com/awin/sukhoi-tes ... verability

Sukhoi test pilot Sergey Bodgan wrote:The emphasis in “supermaneuverability” runs counter to much Western air combat doctrine, which stresses high speed, the avoidance of the slower “merge” and tactics that do not lose the aircraft's energy. Bogdan, however, says supermaneuverability can be essential.

“The classical air combat starts at high speed, but if you miss on the first shot—and the probability is there because there are maneuvers to avoid missiles—the combat will be more prolonged,” he says. “After maneuvering, the aircraft will be at a lower speed, but both aircraft may be in a position where they cannot shoot. But supermaneuverability allows an aircraft to turn within three seconds and take another shot.”


For The Russians, its all about, what happens when you eventually get slow in WVR.
The Western Approach on the other hand is to give planes a motor big enough to make it more unlikely for you to get slow in the first place or if you do, you can power out of it faster than the other guy. The Russians don't have motors that can provide that kind of juice, so their answer is to focus on Post Stall maneuverability. If you noticed, Russian planes generally have lower T/W ratios than their American counter parts.

There are exceptions, the F/A-18 is a fighter that has even better post stall performance than most Russian fighters and the Mig-29 can be better than most Western fighters when it comes to high energy performance.

The F-22 and Su-35 represents the pinnacle of both sides Fighter design philosophy. Performance wise, they are designed to be good at everything. But Raptor seems to lean more towards the High Energy, E-M oriented philosophy of the West, while the Su-35 takes pride in their Post-Stall, Low speed maneuvering philosophy of the Russians.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 01 Nov 2018, 19:40
by marsavian
Losing speed in combat can be unavoidable sometimes if you are forced to maneuver hard e g. your opponent has forced you to keep turn rate around 20 degrees/sec rather than say 10 for long enough and then low speed lift/drag/handling and super maneuverability could become crucial in surviving further if combat is persisting. It requires a lot of discipline on the high energy fighter pilot to say disengage turning at the correct point and keep using the vertical/straight ahead in keeping speed up, there is also the added stress of having to constantly use around 9g at your corner velocity at higher speeds.

Super maneuverability is a nice to have when the chips are down but it is a poor third against BVR advantage due to radar / missiles / stealth and transonic acceleration / maneuverability. We already have had the proof of that, how poorly did the excellent low speed handling Mig-21 do against F-14/F-15/F-16/F-18 in its final encounters ? However the Flanker also has these good high speed attributes too making a well flown one a tricky opponent to beat. It's obvious now that with respect to 4th generation all countries have placed their bets on what maneuverability to emphasize or not. Now in fifth generation it's all about who is the more stealthier and has the more sensitive sensors and longer reaching missiles.

Any super maneuverability a fifth generation plane has will be coincidental and help the design in other areas e.g. F-22/F-35 have twin tails (and pitch TVC in F-22 as well to help high speed efficiency) to aid stealth but do confer some super maneuverability too. Finally if super maneuverability was really all that crucial to even the Russians they would have insisted on all their new build Mig-35s having 3D TVC nozzles but none are currently planned to do so. Let the fans win the virtual mock dogfights but it's only the real or threat of real encounters that count in global air power and Stealth spooks the Russians more than their TVC Maneuverability spooks the West.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 02 Nov 2018, 15:41
by mixelflick
You both make interesting points. Thank you, I learned a lot from your posts.

The two that jumped out at me though, were these..

"Super maneuverability is a nice to have when the chips are down but it is a poor third against BVR advantage due to radar / missiles / stealth and transonic acceleration / maneuverability."

Also, the point about Russian motors not having the zing of their western counterparts AND western jets having better thrust to weight ratios...

With respect to point #1, if I were a pilot then yes.. I'd rather have better stealth/BVR weapons and transonic acceleration while giving away a slight edge in super-maneuverability. Any day! Besides, if it still went to a furball you have those HOBS missiles like the 9x, which can out-maneuver even the best "super-maneuverable" jets. That's why I HOPE the F-35 external 9x's are at least "somewhat" stealthy. If memory serves, they are or were at least claimed to be by LM (kicking myself for not saving the quote).

With respect to Russian motors not having the zing of their western counterparts... I wasn't aware that was the case? In fact, I thought the thrust to weight ratios of the engines were as good or better, they just have very short TBO's. I also thought most Russian jets had better thrust to weight ratios, albeit considering how much internal fuel they carry I can see now why that might not be the case.

An air to air combat loaded F-15 or 16 (after punching the tanks) I can see having a better T2W ratio vs. most Russian jets. Certainly, the F-22 (in a league of its own). The Super Hornet and legacy hornets I was always under the impression they were under-powered?

Sorry for more questions, but I love learning new stuff..

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 02 Nov 2018, 21:07
by swiss
element1loop wrote:And that would start to make some more sense (11,618 lb normal), thus trading fuel for T:W agility, and acceleration performance. No point carrying extra fuel all the time if you don't need it, and just have to trim it out and use more as a result.


Yes. I see this the same way.

mixelflick wrote:With respect to point #1, if I were a pilot then yes.. I'd rather have better stealth/BVR weapons and transonic acceleration while giving away a slight edge in super-maneuverability. Any day! Besides, if it still went to a furball you have those HOBS missiles like the 9x, which can out-maneuver even the best "super-maneuverable" jets. That's why I HOPE the F-35 external 9x's are at least "somewhat" stealthy. If memory serves, they are or were at least claimed to be by LM (kicking myself for not saving the quote).


The days of "super-maneuverability gunfights" seems definitely over with IIR, mach 3 and >50g capable missiles. Was there a "real" dogfight with below 250 knots in the last 30 Years, with a western fighter involved?

From the front with this fancy new pylons it seems Stealth is not the problem for the F-35 and 9x. From 3 or 9 o'clock, could be far more an issue.

mixelflick wrote:With respect to Russian motors not having the zing of their western counterparts... I wasn't aware that was the case? In fact, I thought the thrust to weight ratios of the engines were as good or better, they just have very short TBO's. I also thought most Russian jets had better thrust to weight ratios, albeit considering how much internal fuel they carry I can see now why that might not be the case.


The Su-35 cant supercruise and Rate of climb with roughly 280 m/s should be also below EF, Rafale and Raptor. So only avantage seems indeed low speed, low altitude maneuverability.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 03 Nov 2018, 11:34
by hephaestusaetnaean
swiss wrote:The days of "super-maneuverability gunfights" seems definitely over with IIR, mach 3 and >50g capable missiles. Was there a "real" dogfight with below 250 knots in the last 30 Years, with a western fighter involved?


The last jet v jet guns kill was in 1989, an Iranian F-4E downing an Iraqi Su-22M (http://csbaonline.org/publications/2015 ... periority/ pg37).

The last western-piloted guns kill was ODS, A-10s downing two helos.

The last guns kill period was the 1992 coup attempt in Venezuelan, a gov't F-16 downing an AT-27. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_D ... .281992.29

sferrin wrote:There was an old UK concept floating around that had the pilot submerged in the aircraft for this very reason. Will see if I can dig it up later.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 27 Nov 2018, 21:11
by disconnectedradical
Looks like the F-22 hybrid for Japan won't be happening any time soon if at all.

https://asia.nikkei.com/Politics/Intern ... rs-from-US

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 27 Nov 2018, 23:04
by popcorn
disconnectedradical wrote:Looks like the F-22 hybrid for Japan won't be happening any time soon if at all.

https://asia.nikkei.com/Politics/Intern ... rs-from-US


Looks like the sticker shock of buying a F-22 analogue knocked some sense into them.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 27 Nov 2018, 23:05
by popcorn
deleted

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 28 Nov 2018, 08:03
by Corsair1963
disconnectedradical wrote:Looks like the F-22 hybrid for Japan won't be happening any time soon if at all.

https://asia.nikkei.com/Politics/Intern ... rs-from-US



Honestly, not really a serious option for Japan. As by time it arrived New 6th Generation Fighters would be just around the corner. Plus, it would have been extremely expensive as Japan would have no partners for such a project....

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 28 Nov 2018, 14:10
by zero-one
swiss wrote:The days of "super-maneuverability gunfights" seems definitely over with IIR, mach 3 and >50g capable missiles. Was there a "real" dogfight with below 250 knots in the last 30 Years, with a western fighter involved?


Diminished maybe, over? I wouldn't go that far.
I'd hardly call air to air combat within the last 30 years representative of what a peer adversary would bring to the table.

Re: Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Unread postPosted: 28 Nov 2018, 16:20
by botsing
hephaestusaetnaean wrote:The last jet v jet guns kill was in 1988, an Iranian F-4E downing an Iraqi Su-22M (http://csbaonline.org/publications/2015 ... periority/ pg37).

FTFY :)