SU-57 deployed to Syria

Military aircraft - Post cold war aircraft, including for example B-2, Gripen, F-18E/F Super Hornet, Rafale, and Typhoon.
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milos984

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Unread post04 May 2018, 13:18

As I monitor some russian speaking sources, I share some informations which ar not so much known.
posted elsvere at Feb 26, 2018 11:42 am
https://sputniknews.com/military/201802 ... ent-radar/
Possible Reason for Deployment of Russia's 5th Gen Su-57 to Syria Revealed
26.02.2018
Four state-of-the-art Russian Su-57 stealth fighters, which have reportedly been deployed to Syria, will not be engaged in active combat, according to Kommersant, a Russian daily. The newspaper Kommersant cited military sources as saying that the Russian fifth-generation Su-57 fighter jets were deployed to Syria to test radar systems and electronic warfare. The Su-57s will not take part in combat missions in Syria, the sources said, adding that the decision on the deployment was made during last year's MAKS airshow in Zhukovsky outside Moscow. According to Kommersant, the planes were due to be deployed to Syria on the eve of Russia's Defender of the Fatherland Day, which is celebrated on February 23.
Another goal of the deployment is to promote the capabilities of Russia's military-industrial complex by showcasing Russian military activity in Syria.
...
Hope that usual bystanders do their job and set few ELINT/SIGINT traps here and there.
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posted at Mar 02, 2018 11:04 am
as it was published that Su-57´s were there for two days.
But before it there was an relativelly sober liked here: https://topwar.ru/136725-detali-predsto ... arfiles.ru In RUSSIAN
Детали предстоящего боевого крещения Су-57 в ближневосточном небе. Без шанса «вскрытия» противником
26 февраля 2018
Просматривая сирийские и ближневосточные и западные информационные ресурсы поздним вечером 21 февраля, трудно было поверить своим глазам, когда в новостном блоке тактической онлайн-карты syria.liveuamap.com появились первые сводки о прибытии на сирийскую авиабазу Хмеймим пары многофункциональных сверхманевренных истребителей 5-го поколения Су-57 (Т-50 ПАК-ФА). Машины коснулись ВВП авиабазы при воздушном эскортировании со стороны одного из многоцелевых истребителей Су-35С, что было отчётливо видно в видеоматериале, опубликованном сирийским обозревателем Ваэлем аль-Хусейни на своей страничке в социальной сети «Twitter». Как позднее стало известно благодаря ресурсу онлайн-мониторинга воздушных бортов с активными транспондерами ADS-B «Flightradar24», ПАК-ФА и Су-35 лидировались пассажирским самолётом Ту-154Б-2.
:arrow: translation
Details of the upcoming baptism of fire Su-57 in the Middle East sky. Without the chance of an "autopsy" (of it) by the enemy
February 26, 2018
Looking through the Syrian and Middle Eastern and Western information resources late in the evening on February 21, it was hard to believe their eyes when the first news in the news block of the tactical online map syria.liveuamap.com showed the arrival of a pair of multifunctional super maneuvering fighters of the 5th generation of Su -57 (T-50 PAK-FA). The cars touched the GDP of the air base when air escorted by one of the multi-purpose Su-35S fighters, which was clearly visible in the video published by the Syrian observer Wehl al-Husseini on his page in the social network "Twitter". As it became known later, thanks to the online monitoring of the air beams with the active transponders ADS-B "Flightradar24", PAK-FA and Su-35 were leading with the Tu-154B-2 passenger aircraft.
Absolutely new multi-role fighters of the next generation that are not "run-out" in a hostile air space are suddenly transferred to the most unpredictable Syrian theater of military operations, saturated with an impressive number of ground-based and airborne radio-electronic and radar reconnaissance. So, near the airspace controlled by the air defense systems of the Syrian Armed Forces at the borders of the Euphrates and the northern provinces, Boeing 737AEW & C "Peace Eagle" airplanes regularly fly the Turkish Air Force and the E-3G of the US Air Force capable of directing air targets with EPR 3Q. m at a depth of 280 - 350 km. From the southern air direction, the Syrian sky is partially "pinched" by Israeli CAEW aircraft, equipped with active phased array radars EL / W-2085 radar from the company "Elta".
Consequently, the strengthening of the Syrian air wing of the Russian Air Force in Russia with regular Su-30SM and Su-34, with an effective reflecting surface in 12 and 3 sq. m. respectively, (with them) ELINT air reconnaissance means of the enemy will be almost impossible to surprise or "intimidate (by those Su-30/34)", especially when the missiles of the OVSV coalition are armed with AIM-120C-7 and AIM-120D air-to-air missiles, which threaten our vehicles at a distance 130 - 160 km. Another thing - Su-57, which are machines of a completely different kind. And do not rush to judge the combat potential of our air wing only in terms of the number of Su-57s transferred to Khmeim. An extremely important role here will be played by the parameters of the onboard radio electronic equipment of the two PAK-FAs arriving in Syria, as well as their small radar signature, which will become a significant obstacle to the detection of both AN / APG-80 enemy fighter aircraft on Israeli F-16I and using radar complexes MESA and AN / APY-2, installed in Turkish and US "AWACS".
Based on the table data of the source "Paralay", where the calculated effective scattering surface of the Su-57 is from 0.2 to 0.4 square meters. m, we can conclude that the above-mentioned Turkish and American RLDN means that our advanced fighters will be detected at a distance of 100-150 km, and therefore it will be extremely difficult to establish surveillance over the vehicles, especially when the A2 / AD air zone will be patrolling in addition to the Su-57 and Su-30SM / Su-35S, carrying on the containers of individual (L-265M10) EW protection or "Khibiny" group EW protection. We conclude that the Su-57, carrying out air operations over the central territories of Syria :!: , will be almost impossible to detect (by) enemy airborne radar, while the pilots will be able to test some of the avionics in a tactical situation close to combat, taking into account the complex network centric theater of operations . Why not all, but some?
The fact is that in addition to taking into account the enemy's use of ground-based and airborne-based long-range radar detectors operating mainly in L (D) and S-bands, it is necessary to remember the presence of passive radar complexes. These include: AN / ALR-67 (V) 3 on-board radiation warning stations (aboard the Super Hornets), the most advanced AN / ALR-94 in the world (as part of the F-22A Raptor ", Consisting of more than 30 highly sensitive passive radar sensors), as well as antenna posts with the passive station RTR" KORAL-ED ", part of the Turkish five-element self-propelled electronic warfare complex" KORAL ". The above multifrequency radio electronic reconnaissance devices operate in the frequency range from 500 to 40000 MHz and are capable of directing even weak sources of electromagnetic radiation, and then storing their frequency profile in the register of radio-emitting objects. This, in turn, imposes significant restrictions on the testing of the airborne radar complex N036 "Belka" in the active mode (in order to avoid familiarizing the enemy with the operation modes of the PAK-FA radar in combat conditions). :!:
...
A number of restrictions will be imposed on the active modes of operation of the on-board communication complex (including voice and the exchange of telecode information) with the C-111-N synchronized with the antenna-feeder system AIST-50. Despite the fact that this complex has much in common with the C-108 airborne information exchange complex of the Su-35S fighter (including the use of a pseudorandom frequency tuning mode with a frequency of about 156 jumps per second), its use for transmission in the current tactical situation in the Syrian theater military actions is fraught with the opening of the location of the "broadcasting" Su-57 with further deciphering and analysis of the pilot's negotiations with the allied KP.
...
Proceeding from this, it is not difficult to understand that it is possible to test C-111-N over Syria only under the following conditions: flight at low altitude (outside the viewing area of ​​KPRAL-ED stations and other ground-based complexes of enemy radio reconnaissance outside the radio horizon), at 100% confidence in the absence of "Rivet Joint" in the nearest 600 km, as well as at the small and medium power of the transmitter of the terminal, while the maximum is about 200 W. At this moment, one of the reasons why the second plane of the radar patrol and aiming A-50U arrived at the airbase of Khmeimim. Before the Su-57 test flights over Syria, one of the "Mainstays" will be used to detect any potentially dangerous airborne radio reconnaissance assets of the Allied Forces and Israel, approaching the Syrian airspace from the four operational directions.
...
Small addenda, various czecho-slovak fanboys say that it is not a problem with such testing, as Su-57 is stuffed with parts of the avionic and FCS from Su-35S. Seem´s logic at fisrt, but how much these systems from Su-35S are refined/redesigned to fit them into Su-57 airframe(?). Nobody can say for sure.
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posted at Mar 05, 2018 10:29 am
Regardless how much russian fan boys are boasting about KS-172 (with 400km reach) AAM´s and unbeatable X-58 antiradiolocation missiles, reality is that only at 25th January 2018 was reported that
"The newest "invisible" Russian Su-57 fighter took the first test flights with weapons. This was reported by the Russian media, referring to Boris Obnosov, the director of the company that manufactures air rackets. In years, according to the director, "high-precision weapons placed both inside the hull of the airplane and hung on the outer hinges" are tested. Launching the rockets is to be follow."

So only flights (from which no fotage was released - which could be expected in form of bombastic report at Pervyy kanal) without live firing (not to talk about some weapons separtion tests). These are only to be undertaken in the future (but how near is future :?: nobody knows).
Ragerding my link on russian articles which speculates how the flyght testing would be undertaken, which was posted before it became clear that Su-57´s were in Syrian just for two day. The informations there indicates that the job was regarded as not easy, because of a lot of potentional danger of ELINT/SIGINT Traps. So they speculates that it would be done ower central Syria and with only passive mode´s used.
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Its crazynes, but there is a method in it....
Announcements and re-announcements in T.50/SU-57 program are makeing a complete confusion to me.
Some czech comments http://www.armadninoviny.cz/ruska-stiha ... yrobu.html in June 2017 say:
"The Russian State Arming Program for the years 2018 to 2025(-2027?) counts for the purchase of 18 to 24 T-50s (Su-50). It is not certain whether the number includes (also) the mentioned prototypes or will (it) be (only) the newly manufactured ones, with engines Izdelije 30. However the first production batch is to contain six T-50 (or Su-50) serial aircraft, which together with the mentioned 12 prototypes is doing just 18 aircraft."
The mentioned artile from https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3087140.ht ... ium=social
Is also interesting, as it show some important details...
The contract for the first 12 serial Su-57 fighters of the installation batch will be concluded in 2018
bmpd February 9th, 0:09
Deputy Minister of Defense of the Russian Federation Yury Borisov during his visit to the Komsomolsk-on-Amur Aircraft Plant named after Yu.A. Gagarin (KnAAZ) of Sukhoi Company, said that in 2018 (exactly when :?: ) a contract will be signed for the delivery of the installation lot of the 5th generation of Su-57 fighters created under the PAK FA program. "We will first contract the first squadron - 12 aircraft," - specified Borisov.
According to Borisov, the first two planes from this party can enter the troops already in 2019. He added that earlier in the framework of development work on the PAK FA, 12 machines were manufactured, 10 of which are actively involved in flight tests.
...
So, IMO 11/12 prototypes and then the first, 12-aircraft operational-evaluation Eskadrila of Block 1 aircrafts.
Answering the question about the work on the new engine for the PAK FA, the defense secretary said: "It's hard to judge, because we had just one flight." It's all OK, but you understand, it's a test complex, you have to fly a long time.As a rule, such tests last two or three years. "
As in many other cases, like Indian Su-30´s (from vanilla Su-30KI´s to fully stuffed Su-30MKI´s). Firstly, there would pure airframes stuffed with bits of new technologies and with a lot of already working stuff from Su-35S and one day (someday in next decade) those upgraded ones came to combat service.
...
The bmpd comment. The contract for the purchase of the first 12 Su-57 fighters (T-50S) of the installation batch has been postponed for several years. According to previously disseminated unofficial information, the first two T-50C serial fighters of the installation lot KnAAZ planned to produce in 2017, two more - in 2018, and four - in 2019 and 2020. Yuri Borisov, when visiting KnAAZ in July 2016, said that the contract for the installation lot of the PAK FA should be signed in 2017 with the beginning of deliveries in 2018. Now the signing of the contract and the beginning of deliveries have been postponed for another year. Apparently, the delivery of the installation batch of 12 Su-57 will thus be carried out in 2019-2022. It is the data of 12 aircraft that will be used in the pilot-combat operation.
The aircraft of the installation lot, according to known information, must be made in the technical face of the experienced fighters T-50-9 / T-50-11 and equipped with engines of the type "117". Presumably, after the production of this installation lot, within the framework of the adopted State Arms Program for 2018-2027, a new contract for the production of 12-15 Su-57 aircraft of the installation batch in the form of the "second stage" should be followed, with the "engine 30" fitted with a prospective engine. Actual full-scale production of Su-57 fighters for equipping the linear parts of the Russian VKS will apparently be carried out in the shape of the "second stage" after 2027.

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posted at Mar 23, 2018 10:43 pm
https://www.facebook.com/vadim.lukashev ... 6230290408 Mr. Vadim Lukashevich was constructor at OKB Su where he was engaged in combat surviveability of Su-25 aircrafts, he later participated at Soviet BURAN project, but was fired from RossKosmos after he criticized the mismanagement there.
Взгляд со стороны, от бывшего потенциального партнера и/или заказчика.
По сути это подтверждение уже известного: наш Су-57 (Т-50), как и его предшественники семейства Су-27, действительно является более маневренным самолетом, возможно - самым маневренным в мире (с новыми двигателями). Но в современном воздушном бою, ведущемся на средних (10-15-25 километров) и дальних (50-300 километров) дистанциях сверхманевренность - мертвому припарка. В концепции истребителя пятого поколения на первый план выходят сверхзвуковая крейсерская скорость, малая заметность и качество оружия (бортовая РЛС + ракеты + электронные мозги + полное комплексирование всех систем в единый иерархический автоматический комплекс вооружения, решающий все задача боевого применения, от боевой эффективности до боевой живучести). Маневренность, которой мы так кичимся и которая столь эффектно смотрится на разных авиашоу в выступлениях штучных летчиков-асов и пилотажных групп, в современном воздушном бою полезна так же, как во время морского сражения - кортик морскому офицеру на подводной лодке.
И обратите внимание - это не заявления для пиара или пропаганды - это соинвестор реально считает результативность отдачи на свои затраты. И приходит к выводу, что участие в проекте для него убыточно по критерию "стоимость/эффективность"

A view from the side, from a former potential partner and / or customer.
In fact, this confirmation is already known: our Su-57 (T-50), like its predecessors of the Su-27 family, is indeed a more maneuverable aircraft, perhaps the most maneuverable in the world (with new engines). But in a modern air battle, conducted at medium (10-15-25 kilometers) and distant (50-300 kilometers) distances, super maneuverability - dead poultice. In the concept of a fifth-generation fighter, supersonic cruising speed, low visibility and gun quality (on-board radars + rockets + electronic brains + complete integration of all systems into a single hierarchical automatic armament complex that solves the entire combat mission problem, from combat effectiveness to combat survivability ). Maneuverability, which we are so keen on and which looks so spectacularly at different air shows in the speeches of individual pilots-aces and aerobatic teams, in modern air combat is as useful as during a sea battle - a dirk to a naval officer on a submarine.
And pay attention - these are not statements for PR or propaganda - this co-investor really considers the effectiveness of the return on his costs. And comes to the conclusion that participation in the project for him is unprofitable by the criterion of "cost / effectiveness"
https://42.tut.by/585798
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posted at Apr 28, 2018 5:54 am
Something new from mr. Vadim Lukashevich : https://www.facebook.com/vadim.lukashev ... 3051820059
"...авиаэксперт, бывший конструктор ОКБ «Сухой» Вадим Лукашевич в эфире НСН предположил, что собранные образцы Су-57 действительно могут не соответствовать техническому заданию.
«Надо понимать, что самолёт ещё сырой. Вряд ли те пять образцов, которые летают, на сегодняшний момент отвечают требованиям, заложенным техническим заданием заказчика. Самолёт должен пройти ещё длительный путь, пока он получит штатный двигатель, электронное оборудование, вооружение и так далее», - заявил НСН бывший конструктор.
...
:arrow: http://nsn.fm/army-and-weapons/aviaeksp ... -ssha.html

TRANSLATION (...
Vadim Lukashevich
23 apríl, 12:30 ·
"... the air expert, the former designer of the OKB" Sukhoi "Vadim Lukashevich on the air of the NSO suggested that the existing Su-57´s really may not meet the technical requirements.
"We must understand that the plane is still "fresh". It is unlikely that the five samples that fly, at the moment meet the requirements laid down by the technical task of the customer. The plane must go a long way until it gets a full-time engine, electronic equipment, weapons and so on, "the former designer told NNS.
However, for certain it will be known, according to the expert, only after the removal of the neck "top secret" with these characteristics. As Vadim Lukashevich specified, India was very disappointed with Russian equipment.
"The India´s are trying to get out from our aviation and technical cooperation under this pretext. They have very serious problems with already delivered aircraft. This is revealed at the beginning of operation very much. In Su-30, which are delivered to India, (there were) problems with the main power frames (the transverse edge of the ship - NSN): the frame of the center section has serious cracks, which is bad for the aircraft. This applies to the MiG-29. The Hindus are rather disappointed in us. For all the programs with which they were tied with us, they did not get what they wanted. We have unequal cooperation with them. We create a technique for them, and they act more like financial donors. If you just pay, then it's easier to take a quality product and to be content with it, "the air expert believes.
According to Vadim Lukashevich, if the Indians really refuse to buy Russian equipment, they will leave for the United States.
"To date, the two main trendsetters in fighter aircraft: we and the Americans. Naturally, any walk from us is an approach to the Americans. They also have problems with the F-35, there also is a mismatch of characteristics. Nevertheless, the Hindus prefer the Americans, because there the quality of assembly is different, the technology is of a higher level, "Lukashevich concluded on air.
But he rejoiced Magomed Tolboyev, on the verge of refuting what he said: "... Hero of the Russian Federation, Honored Test Pilot of the Russian Federation, Major General in reserve Magomed Tolboyev on air of the NSN denied India's claims to Russian military aircraft. all over the world is considered a model of world standards for service life, resources, simplicity of service, cheapness. ""
https://www.facebook.com/vadim.lukashev ... 3051820059
***********
IMO: The Su-57 is to be pressed into active service of the Ru_AF regardles. But there would be same odyssea in front of it as it was before MiG-23 in early 1970, when it take nearly two decades until they make a MiG-23MLD, from "vanilla" MiG-23MS. So dont expect front-line 5th gen. FMC plane before 2027-2030 (mean airplane equipped with all the stuff as originally presented)
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Unread post06 May 2018, 22:35

It sounds as if they're tacitly acknowledging delivering sub-standard birds to India? And that somehow, SU-57 progress will continue but it's going to be a loooong time before it gets anywhere near "5th gen". They're admitting big problems with the engines. I couldn't make heads or tails what he was trying to say re: avionics. And as far as stealth goes, he sounded way out in fantasy land.

They've got big problems with the SU-57. Perhaps not insurmountable but the clock is ticking. By the time it fulfills its potential 5.5 or even 6th gen jets will be proliferating. When the history books are written, this may be the moment where Russia fell out of the game, no longer competitive with American/Chinese designs...

It feels like that's what is going down...
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Unread post07 May 2018, 03:23

mixelflick wrote:It sounds as if they're tacitly acknowledging delivering sub-standard birds to India? And that somehow, SU-57 progress will continue but it's going to be a loooong time before it gets anywhere near "5th gen". They're admitting big problems with the engines. I couldn't make heads or tails what he was trying to say re: avionics. And as far as stealth goes, he sounded way out in fantasy land.

They've got big problems with the SU-57. Perhaps not insurmountable but the clock is ticking. By the time it fulfills its potential 5.5 or even 6th gen jets will be proliferating. When the history books are written, this may be the moment where Russia fell out of the game, no longer competitive with American/Chinese designs...

It feels like that's what is going down...



It is.....as Russia has pretty much handed the Non-Western Fighter Market to China. :doh:
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Unread post07 May 2018, 14:53

I wonder who made the call in Russia to bet on the SU-57?

Sukhoi seems favored, but I'm not certain who's calling the shots. Putin himself? He seems to love the bird. But honestly, this wasn't that hard to see coming, was it? PAK FA first flew in 2010, at which point it was pretty clear the F-22 was cancelled due to being too expensive, and the US then went full tilt with the smaller, more multi-role F-35 (thousands planned). It was no secret it would be exported.

China's first flight of the J-20 didn't occur until January, 2011. But you can't tell me Russian intelligence didn't know about it, or the J-31 for that matter. They knew for certain the US F-35 would be the export competitor. They should have known about the J-20/J-31.

Was it... ego?
In prior media exchanges, they positioned it as a Raptor killer. So they needed to have something (real or perceived) to compete with it. If it was national pride/ego, the Raptor really delivered: It caused them to make a fundamentally flawed decision, squarely knocking Russia out of the game with respect to exporting combat aircraft . It may be that when the final F-22 chapter is written, this was its greatest "kill"... 8)
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Unread post07 May 2018, 21:59

I agree with you mixelflick.

I always wondered (and believe that) if the Russians had gone the Mig LMFS route that perhaps they could have been much more successful.
Of course that the LMFS wouldn't still be a match for the F-35 (and subsequently the F-22) but at least they could get their hands on a "5th gen stealthy" fighter aircraft sooner and cheaper which would mean more fighter aircraft available for the Russian Air Force and above all, it would allow Russia to retain the "Non-Western Fighter Market".

Resuming if the Russians would have been smart on this regard, the LMFS could become the XXI century Mig-21 which again while not being a "match" for the newest western 5th gen fighter aircraft, if used in numbers and cleverly could become a serious threat to contend with just like the Mig-21 was in the 1960's and early 1970's and of course could be more than a match (actually superior) to current western 4th and 4.5th gen fighter aircraft.

But like you said the aparent "Sukhoi favoring" in the post-Soviet Russia seems to hinder the above and in the end put Russia in a position where it seems that the only way out is to continue with the mistake of continuing to develop the PAK-FA/Su-57.
A 4th/4.5th gen fighter aircraft stands about as much chance against a F-35 as a guns-only Sabre has against a Viper.
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Unread post08 May 2018, 02:42

Well, the Flanker Series was more successful than the Fulcrum in the marketplace. So, I can only assume they believed the PAK-FA would follow in the former foot steps. Regardless, of the reasons the selection of the PAK-FA over the far more exportable LMFS was a 'Colossal" mistake. One that many in the public still haven't grasped...... :?
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Unread post09 May 2018, 00:37

awsome wrote:Dude contain the autism, it was a mild, low scale missile strike and the targets got hit.

What did you expect a WW against a third world and a second world country just because?

Besides, that's the second, light strike russki equipment failed to repel.

TORNADO acting with impunity dude.

Tornado...jjeez...what year is this?1982?



Trumpy: we will **** you up bigley
Syrian military this morning: is it in yet?[/quote]

Those S-300`s and S-400`s (Actually S-350) only have 250 mile range against targets that cooperate with them and fly at 40,000 ft....
Those Tornado`s were quite safe launching Storm Shadow cruise missiles with 500+ km range from an altitude of their choosing with Typhoons flying top cover out of Cyprus.
Additionally, the Tornado can carry 4 X Storm Shadow each if required. The Tornado is one hell of a capable attack aircraft in 2018. Pity we are retiring them soon.
The Russians, as Citanon has mentioned, were probably told of the targets beforehand so stood down and just watched.I don`t buy the "surprise we never told the Russians line". It was too dangerous not to.

You also have to remember that the attack came from all compass points, S-400`s acquisition radars operate in a 120 degree arc ,nor can they see thru mountains or defy the laws of physics by seeing below the horizon they probably wouldn't see jack, unless they were looking in the right direction and even that would only be at close ranges. even if they wanted to, the Russians could in no way have taken out 71 cruise missiles, I don`t think anybody could.
Looking at some of the vids, I was seeing 5 to 6 seconds separation between cruise missiles.
In conclusion, the US and Allies can pretty much attack Syria with impunity using cruise missiles.
"I may not agree with what you say....but I will defend to the death your right to say it".
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Unread post09 May 2018, 00:56

Corsair1963 wrote:
icemaverick wrote:For national pride alone, Russia will never buy a Chinese jet. The Su-57 is something of a prestige project. Axing it now would look terrible. They will continue to buy it in tiny batches and make incremental improvements just as they have done with the Flanker series. They might even give them different numbers e.g. Su-60 etc.

Despite Russia’s posturing, everyone knows that they are already a regional power. They simply don’t have the economic might to compete with China, nevermind the USA. It will be interesting to see how the Su-57 fares against the J-20 and J-31 on the export market. They might be able to secure a few sales but certainly the Chinese will make a move into their turf.



First, Russia has few options as she just doesn't have deep pockets anymore. As a matter of fact much of her Military is made up of either old ex-Soviet Equipment or Upgraded Versions of it. So, how is Russia going to replace all of it??? When it has a GDP about the size of Australia/Canada!

Also, while Russians have considerable pride. That didn't stop them from ordering two large Mistral Class "Amphibious Assault Ships (LHD's) from France.... :wink:

ENS_Gamal_Abdel_Nasser_(L1010)_Helicopter_Carrier.jpg




So, honestly this talk that Russia would "never" consider buying Chinese Military Equipment falls flat in my opinion. Also, I never suggested or said they should cancel the Su-57. I just stated they couldn't afford to produce it in large numbers and the design had a number of flaws.



Putin hated the Mistral deal. I dont think that kind of sale will ever happen again, in the end they were sold to Egypt with Saudi`s footing the bill.
It would not be a good idea to bank on Russia bankrupting themselves trying to keep up with NATO. We need to take control of this and set OUR agenda.
The Russians are far from stupid. Last year they actually reduced their defence budget to take the lower price of oil into account and dwindling hard currency reserves. I think they still remember what happened to the USSR so wont make the same mistake again. They aren't in as bad a shape as we would like to think, they have no debt.
I dont buy all of the Uber weapons propaganda they are spewing at the moment, if you add up the costs of all of those programs it probably amounts to more than their GDP per annum in program development and execution / manufacturing costs.
I had to pinch myself about the Nuke powered cruise missile, come on guys.....dont believe the hype.
A Russian friend of mine once said, "Russia wants respect, if they cant get respect, they will take fear".

Russian defence planners already know they are hopelessly outmatched by NATO in conventional terms but they can make up for that somewhat with hybrid warfare and unit cohesiveness. They dont have multiple national agendas to smooth over in times of conflict.
Finally, Russia does not want open conflict with the US, they would lose conventionally and it would be a pointless exercise in a$$ self-whuppery.
They will however, push in every other sphere, people need to wake up to that fact that the West is at "war" with Russia, the only thing missing is we aren't shooting at each other yet. God forbid but we need to face them down, they see political weakness as it is, an advantage for them.
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Unread post09 May 2018, 07:32

snypa777 wrote:Putin hated the Mistral deal. I dont think that kind of sale will ever happen again, in the end they were sold to Egypt with Saudi`s footing the bill.
It would not be a good idea to bank on Russia bankrupting themselves trying to keep up with NATO. We need to take control of this and set OUR agenda.
The Russians are far from stupid. Last year they actually reduced their defence budget to take the lower price of oil into account and dwindling hard currency reserves. I think they still remember what happened to the USSR so wont make the same mistake again. They aren't in as bad a shape as we would like to think, they have no debt.
I dont buy all of the Uber weapons propaganda they are spewing at the moment, if you add up the costs of all of those programs it probably amounts to more than their GDP per annum in program development and execution / manufacturing costs.
I had to pinch myself about the Nuke powered cruise missile, come on guys.....dont believe the hype.
A Russian friend of mine once said, "Russia wants respect, if they cant get respect, they will take fear".

Russian defence planners already know they are hopelessly outmatched by NATO in conventional terms but they can make up for that somewhat with hybrid warfare and unit cohesiveness. They dont have multiple national agendas to smooth over in times of conflict.
Finally, Russia does not want open conflict with the US, they would lose conventionally and it would be a pointless exercise in a$$ self-whuppery.
They will however, push in every other sphere, people need to wake up to that fact that the West is at "war" with Russia, the only thing missing is we aren't shooting at each other yet. God forbid but we need to face them down, they see political weakness as it is, an advantage for them.



What a bunch of baloney........ :lmao:
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Unread post09 May 2018, 10:33

The West is at war with Russia? For real? Because Putin's cronies are being sanctioned? And because we keep on rolling our eyes at the constant " blame the West" rhetoric coming from the Kremlin? :doh:
Russia stronk
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Unread post09 May 2018, 11:37

mixelflick wrote:I wonder who made the call in Russia to bet on the SU-57?

Sukhoi seems favored, but I'm not certain who's calling the shots. Putin himself? He seems to love the bird. But honestly, this wasn't that hard to see coming, was it? PAK FA first flew in 2010, at which point it was pretty clear the F-22 was cancelled due to being too expensive, and the US then went full tilt with the smaller, more multi-role F-35 (thousands planned). It was no secret it would be exported.

China's first flight of the J-20 didn't occur until January, 2011. But you can't tell me Russian intelligence didn't know about it, or the J-31 for that matter. They knew for certain the US F-35 would be the export competitor. They should have known about the J-20/J-31.

Was it... ego?
In prior media exchanges, they positioned it as a Raptor killer. So they needed to have something (real or perceived) to compete with it. If it was national pride/ego, the Raptor really delivered: It caused them to make a fundamentally flawed decision, squarely knocking Russia out of the game with respect to exporting combat aircraft . It may be that when the final F-22 chapter is written, this was its greatest "kill"... 8)


Agree 110%
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Unread post09 May 2018, 16:11

Some interesting background insofar as Sukhoi T-50 selection, vs Mig's LMFS...

"In April 2002, the Russian military chose Sukhoi's T-50 proposal in the fifth-generation fighter contest — which was codenamed the Perspektivniy Aviatsionniy Kompleks Frontovoi Aviatsii (PAK FA), or future tactical aviation air system. Since 2002, Sukhoi has been regularly meeting the subsequent milestones in the new fighter's development, which led to the Russian Air Force's approval of the T-50's preliminary design. To date, Sukhoi has developed a computer mock-up of the aircraft and an operating mockup of the cockpit. The PAK FA prototype's maiden flight is expected in 2009.

Sukhoi's victory in the Russian Air Force competition resulted not only from the T-50's design characteristics. The choice was made with the consideration of the company's sizeable profits from the sales of the Su-27 family aircraft to China and India in the 1990s and early 2000s. At that time, Sukhoi fighters represented half of Russia's aircraft production, and nearly half of Russian military technology exports. During the 1990s, Sukhoi maintained the largest workload of all Russian design bureaus. Unlike other Russian aircraft designers, the company counted more on its own resources than on government subsidies.

The Sukhoi T-50's rival in 2002 was the MiG design, the exact designation of which is classified. Later, when MiG Corp. decided to continue this program, it received the codename Liogkiy Mnogofunktsionalniy Frontovoi Samolyot (LMFS) or Light Multi-role Tactical Aircraft. MiG Corp. did not accept defeat in the contest against Sukhoi, and criticized the decision-making procedure. According to MiG, several aspects were omitted during the evaluation, like the purchase cost for the Air Force, the aircraft's lifetime maintenance costs and the export possibilities of various versions during the next few decades. MiG insisted that instead of initial projects, the choice of a winner should have been made at the phase of prototype tests."

Hindsight being 20/20, I have to agree with Mig. The T-50 was always going to be more expensive (bigger, more complex) both on a per unit cost and lifetime maintenance costs. Certainly the export possibilities were much greater for Mig's LMFS.

Their last point I think is most telling: "The choice of winner should have been made at the phase of prototype tests". There may be a lesson there: Company X and Y develop prototypes, winner takes all. That's how it went with the YF-22A and YF-35A, also how it worked with the X-35 and X-32. Although why they didnt' call it the YF-35 and YF-32 I'm not certain.

Hindsight being 20/20 for both of those programs, I think we can agree the best designs won those flyoffs too. Although I know the YF-23A made it a LOT closer than "The Monica" X-32 lol
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Unread post10 May 2018, 00:23

Corsair1963 wrote:
snypa777 wrote:Putin hated the Mistral deal. I dont think that kind of sale will ever happen again, in the end they were sold to Egypt with Saudi`s footing the bill.
It would not be a good idea to bank on Russia bankrupting themselves trying to keep up with NATO. We need to take control of this and set OUR agenda.
The Russians are far from stupid. Last year they actually reduced their defence budget to take the lower price of oil into account and dwindling hard currency reserves. I think they still remember what happened to the USSR so wont make the same mistake again. They aren't in as bad a shape as we would like to think, they have no debt.
I dont buy all of the Uber weapons propaganda they are spewing at the moment, if you add up the costs of all of those programs it probably amounts to more than their GDP per annum in program development and execution / manufacturing costs.
I had to pinch myself about the Nuke powered cruise missile, come on guys.....dont believe the hype.
A Russian friend of mine once said, "Russia wants respect, if they cant get respect, they will take fear".

Russian defence planners already know they are hopelessly outmatched by NATO in conventional terms but they can make up for that somewhat with hybrid warfare and unit cohesiveness. They dont have multiple national agendas to smooth over in times of conflict.
Finally, Russia does not want open conflict with the US, they would lose conventionally and it would be a pointless exercise in a$$ self-whuppery.
They will however, push in every other sphere, people need to wake up to that fact that the West is at "war" with Russia, the only thing missing is we aren't shooting at each other yet. God forbid but we need to face them down, they see political weakness as it is, an advantage for them.



What a bunch of baloney........ :lmao:


ignorance is bliss.
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Unread post10 May 2018, 00:38

juretrn wrote:The West is at war with Russia? For real? Because Putin's cronies are being sanctioned? And because we keep on rolling our eyes at the constant " blame the West" rhetoric coming from the Kremlin? :doh:


"Learn something new".
A basic primer.
https://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/p ... _CT468.pdf
"I may not agree with what you say....but I will defend to the death your right to say it".
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Unread post26 May 2018, 14:25

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