SU-57: On hold for a decade

milosh · by **milosh** » 22 Sep 2019, 21:18

Guys in WarPact, highway wasn't consider as rough or dirty air strip, this is dirty air strip:

MiG-29 was design to be able to do similar thing that is why it have intake doors and top grills:
https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/im ... 211090.jpg

And I heard Hungarians did in fact practice to take off and land MiG-29 on grass field. We in Yugoslavia didn't but in 1999 we used road as backup air strip.

botsing · by **botsing** » 22 Sep 2019, 21:29

juretrn · by **juretrn** » 22 Sep 2019, 23:10

You land on that dirt strip, and then it rains.

mixelflick · by **mixelflick** » 23 Sep 2019, 13:05

juretrn wrote:You land on that dirt strip, and then it rains.

Right!?

That was absolutely sick, especially the Mig-21's high landing speed/lack of chutes! Wouldn't want to be the pilot on any of these, but especially the Mig on a dirt strip! You have to hand it to them though, that's an incredible capability. No way an F-16 is going to do the same.

I'm curious though, how many "dirt strips" can actually be used. How many 10,000ft stretches of dirt are even enough? I bet it takes a lot of "massaging" to get one of these strips to be usable. And the takeoff?! All that dirt it kicks up... the next bird won't be taking off again anytime soon!

milosh · by **milosh** » 23 Sep 2019, 16:53

mixelflick wrote:I'm curious though, how many "dirt strips" can actually be used. How many 10,000ft stretches of dirt are even enough? I bet it takes a lot of "massaging" to get one of these strips to be usable. And the takeoff?! All that dirt it kicks up... the next bird won't be taking off again anytime soon!

In USSR they would maintain nice amount of crop fields for that purpose, my professor was doing crop testing there, laid in front on big roller to stop operator from rolling over their test field. He couldn't believe when they explain him what is purpose of that operation and he was ex military pilot I think on MiG-21. He then got info that Soviets maintain some % of crop fields as backup air strips.

MiG-29 was design for such use, no other (maybe F-18 could) modern fighter can take off from such strip.

@botsing

Niether fighter you posted was important part of NATO airforces, F-5 wasn't used by NATO if I am right, and Harrier was used by Brits and it could take off from anything. We are talking about major fighters in opposing AF.

MiG-21 and MiG-29 as frontline fighters were design to be able not to rely on airfields near front line because high chase they will be destroyed and also would happen to air strip capable roads near frontline.

sprstdlyscottsmn · by **sprstdlyscottsmn** » 23 Sep 2019, 16:59

I could be wrong, but IIRC the MiG-29 could not engage the AB when using the FOD-doors.

botsing · by **botsing** » 23 Sep 2019, 17:47

milosh wrote:He then got info that Soviets maintain some % of crop fields as backup air strips.

Soviets relied on crop fields for backup airfields and NATO relied on highways.

milosh wrote:F-5 wasn't used by NATO if I am right

Several NATO members had F-5's over time, though I highly doubt it was for their crop field qualities. :wink:

XanderCrews · by **XanderCrews** » 23 Sep 2019, 17:53

milosh · by **milosh** » 23 Sep 2019, 19:28

botsing wrote:Soviets relied on crop fields for backup airfields and NATO relied on highways.

WarPact would also use roads as backup airstrips:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HE93MHnIBlQ

But Soviet doctrine was to hit enemy useful roads near front so they expect similar NATO will try to do to them. That is why requirment for dirty air strips for frontline fighters (MiG-21 and later MiG-29).

jetblast16 · by **jetblast16** » 23 Sep 2019, 19:33

juretrn · by **juretrn** » 23 Sep 2019, 21:25

I believe landing on "roads" is a bit of a misnomer. These stretches of road were specially hardened so they can take the shock of landing of a loaded aircraft.
At least that's what they did with the German Autobahn IIRC.

mixelflick · by **mixelflick** » 24 Sep 2019, 13:29

milosh wrote:
mixelflick wrote:I'm curious though, how many "dirt strips" can actually be used. How many 10,000ft stretches of dirt are even enough? I bet it takes a lot of "massaging" to get one of these strips to be usable. And the takeoff?! All that dirt it kicks up... the next bird won't be taking off again anytime soon!

In USSR they would maintain nice amount of crop fields for that purpose, my professor was doing crop testing there, laid in front on big roller to stop operator from rolling over their test field. He couldn't believe when they explain him what is purpose of that operation and he was ex military pilot I think on MiG-21. He then got info that Soviets maintain some % of crop fields as backup air strips.

MiG-29 was design for such use, no other (maybe F-18 could) modern fighter can take off from such strip.

@botsing

Niether fighter you posted was important part of NATO airforces, F-5 wasn't used by NATO if I am right, and Harrier was used by Brits and it could take off from anything. We are talking about major fighters in opposing AF.

MiG-21 and MiG-29 as frontline fighters were design to be able not to rely on airfields near front line because high chase they will be destroyed and also would happen to air strip capable roads near frontline.

Do we expect the SU-35 and 57 to have this capability too?

It wouldn't surprise me, but consider the weight of these birds. Much, much heavier than a Mig-21 and 29. The SU-57 in particular, and I don't think similar vents are used like as seen on the Mig-29. But it's clear they're much more rugged than most western jets.

botsing · by **botsing** » 24 Sep 2019, 16:02

juretrn wrote:I believe landing on "roads" is a bit of a misnomer. These stretches of road were specially hardened so they can take the shock of landing of a loaded aircraft.
At least that's what they did with the German Autobahn IIRC.

You are quite right on that, next to those autobahn airfields they even made parking spots for the aircraft.

Some aircraft are made with rugged airstrips in mind and others might be able to use those rugged airstrips in case of emergency but should not be using them in normal life.

To me it's unknown whether modern western jet planes like the teen series and 5fh gens can use rugged airstrips or not in case of emergency (and if so to what extent), hence my first post about that in this thread to counter any assumptions.

southerncross · by **southerncross** » 24 Sep 2019, 16:45

It is unknown to me to what level modern fighters can be used from damaged or unprepared runways, but by simple observation the following characteristics on Russian planes are apparent and should derive from specific operational requirements:
- Over-dimensioned main landing gear
- Twin wheel nose landing gear
- Mud guards
- FOD screens at the intakes (unknown to me for Su-57)
- STOL design (only claimed for Su-57)
- Landing chute incl. deployment before touch.down
- Alternative intakes (MiG-29)

I am not sure how NATO prepares for the possibility of their bases being damaged, for instance braking chutes are not a standard equipment but they have arresting hooks AFAIK. In general I agree that in general Western fighters seem less rugged, this is particularly apparent for sizing and layout of the landing gear. Also some special needs re. fuel cooling, dependence on remote servers, length of TO run and coating maintenance may pose difficulties under less than optimal basing conditions.

vilters · by **vilters** » 24 Sep 2019, 17:44

You forget that we have many airports in Europe.
Blink your eyes and the next one is available.
Not Always operational, but good enough to put something down if required.

PS : The F-5 was used by the Netherlands.
They had F-104 and F-5, while we Belgians had F-104 and Mirage 5.