SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 28 Nov 2017, 15:15
by mixelflick
Sounds like they finally acknowledged reality: Just prototypes until at least 2027. I can only imagine what this means for India. I'd think given this news, they're 100% out and now really hurting as China's J-31
/J-20 start to enter service...

http://warisboring.com/russia-is-haltin ... -a-decade/

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 28 Nov 2017, 16:57
by neptune
deleted

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 28 Nov 2017, 18:27
by zerion
There is a thread for this sort of thing.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 28 Nov 2017, 20:18
by juretrn
Isn't Izd. 30 starting flight testing sometime next year? Surely those engines will be ready before 2027 rolls around?
WiB talking out of their a-holes, as usual?

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 28 Nov 2017, 23:02
by nn8734
If WiB is accurate, the SU 57 will enter service around the same time PCA is getting off the ground. Wonder if they are just waiting on I30 engines to mature or are looking to make design changes to the airframe and/or avionics?

Otherwise it will be hopelessly outclassed by the raptor, f35 and PCA but probably still be competitive with the J20.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 29 Nov 2017, 00:01
by zerion
juretrn wrote:Isn't Izd. 30 starting flight testing sometime next year? Surely those engines will be ready before 2027 rolls around?
WiB talking out of their a-holes, as usual?

They have a decent source.
http://www.ponarseurasia.org/memo/russi ... -2018-2027

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 29 Nov 2017, 00:14
by popcorn
No worries. Russia will simply reclassify it as 6Gen.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 29 Nov 2017, 02:42
by skyward
Russia is just waiting for India to fund the project.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 29 Nov 2017, 17:02
by mixelflick
popcorn wrote:No worries. Russia will simply reclassify it as 6Gen.


Give that man a cigar!

Sounds like that's exactly what they have planned :)

https://thediplomat.com/2017/11/russia- ... ghter-jet/

"Russia’s first indigenously designed and built fifth-generation stealth fighter, the Su-57, could be turned into a sixth-generation fighter aircraft, the former head of the Russian Aerospace Force, Viktor Bondarev told TASS news agency on November.

“This is actually a splendid plane and it can embrace both fifth-and sixth-generation features. It has huge modernization potential,” Bondarev, now chairman of the Federation Council Defense and Security Committee, said. “Importantly, it is the best among the existing versions by its stealth characteristics. It incorporates all the best that is available in modern aviation science both in Russia and in the world,” he added."

I still remember when Putin claimed it be operational in 2013 :mrgreen:

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 29 Nov 2017, 17:26
by XanderCrews
popcorn wrote:No worries. Russia will simply reclassify it as 6Gen.



Lol right on

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 29 Nov 2017, 17:28
by XanderCrews
Remember folks, Pakfa was going to be Ivan showing the West how fifth gen is done

Lol.

Where is haavalra?

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 29 Nov 2017, 18:02
by durahawk
XanderCrews wrote:
popcorn wrote:No worries. Russia will simply reclassify it as 6Gen.


Lol right on


6th gen huh? I guess the SU-57 will join the ranks of the Gripen of Sweetman lore. :mrgreen:

In all seriousness though, the prospects don't look great for Mother Russia developing a competent 5th gen fighter on a GDP less than that of Italy... at least anytime soon as oil prices remain low. Especially without India acting as the sugar daddy.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 29 Nov 2017, 18:23
by mixelflick
durahawk wrote:
XanderCrews wrote:
popcorn wrote:No worries. Russia will simply reclassify it as 6Gen.


Lol right on


6th gen huh? I guess the SU-57 will join the ranks of the Gripen of Sweetman lore. :mrgreen:

In all seriousness though, the prospects don't look great for Mother Russia developing a competent 5th gen fighter on a GDP less than that of Italy... at least anytime soon as oil prices remain low. Especially without India acting as the sugar daddy.


Wow! That point about Italy really puts things in perspective!! It seems ruble reality is now hitting the Russians...

1) No SU-57 for at least a decade
2.) The S-500 isn't coming anytime soon
3.) Building TU-160M2's vs PAK DA's
4.) No more super-carrier

Triaging this would be interesting. So they fly the PAK FA prototype in 2010. APA Kopp/Goon go ballistic and proclaim America's stealth monopoly has ended. F-35 is panned as "double inferior" to Russian/Chinese Flankers, nevermind this new Russian wonder bird. 7 years on we're told it'll be another decade before PAK FA/SU-57 enters service.

Shazam.

Meanwhile F-35's roll off the production lines in increasing numbers and are getting cheaper and cheaper. In 10 years they'll be what, 1,000's of F-35's proliferating around the globe? We have reached a defining moment in the new arms race: The Chinese are a far greater threat to our military superiority vs. the Russians.

No wonder the F-22 driver I spoke with at a recent airshow was far more concerned with them/the J-20 than the SU-57...

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 29 Nov 2017, 23:20
by milosh
http://www.vladtime.ru/polit/621382

Su-57 is probable on ice while PAK-DA is on deicing, Tu-160M2 price is reason for PAK-DA. Price of modernisation of Tu-160 on M2 level is 50million dollars that is without making totally new airframe.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 30 Nov 2017, 01:27
by nutshell
RuAF giving up.

F35 so good it doesnt even need to fire a single missile to achieve air superiority :mrgreen:

Air dominance through superior... development roadmap.

P.s.: so, su57 ioc just in time to watch the bees shooting lasers. Lol.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 30 Nov 2017, 02:07
by nn8734
mixelflick wrote:
popcorn wrote:No worries. Russia will simply reclassify it as 6Gen.



https://thediplomat.com/2017/11/russia- ... ghter-jet/



“This is actually a splendid plane and it can embrace both fifth-and sixth-generation features. It has huge modernization potential,” Bondarev, now chairman of the Federation Council Defense and Security Committee, said. “Importantly, it is the best among the existing versions by its stealth characteristics. It incorporates all the best that is available in modern aviation science both in Russia and in the world,” he added." :mrgreen:


The Russians are proving themselves to be nothing short of delusional with those statements. It’s highly unlikely WE will field a true sixth generation fighter anytime before 2040 (PCA will likely be a 5.5 gen, at least at first when it comes on line in the next decade), let alone Russia.

Agree with an earlier post that China is much more of a concern than the Russians.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 30 Nov 2017, 04:06
by XanderCrews
nutshell wrote:RuAF giving up.

F35 so good it doesnt even need to fire a single missile to achieve air superiority :mrgreen:

Air dominance through superior... development roadmap.

P.s.: so, su57 ioc just in time to watch the bees shooting lasers. Lol.



Lol

Where was that Aussie who was telling us this thing was like a stealthy foxbat that could fly at 80000 ft? And we didn't have a chance.

Where is the Rafale fanboy who was talking us that 5th generation engines aren't special or different in any way?

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 30 Nov 2017, 05:12
by popcorn
Hmmm... nothing on Keypubs?

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 30 Nov 2017, 15:13
by milosh
mixelflick wrote:
popcorn wrote:No worries. Russia will simply reclassify it as 6Gen.


Give that man a cigar!

Sounds like that's exactly what they have planned :)

https://thediplomat.com/2017/11/russia- ... ghter-jet/

"Russia’s first indigenously designed and built fifth-generation stealth fighter, the Su-57, could be turned into a sixth-generation fighter aircraft, the former head of the Russian Aerospace Force, Viktor Bondarev told TASS news agency on November.


That explain a lot. New head of Russian AF isn't from AF but from army and he want what boots on ground need, those are UAV&UCAV and more fighter bombers (Su-30 and Su-34).

I think that is wrong because Su-57 could be base for other fighter types not just Russian F-22 equivalent (more less pure A-A machine).

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 30 Nov 2017, 15:47
by XanderCrews
milosh wrote:I think that is wrong because Su-57 could be base for other fighter types not just Russian F-22 equivalent (more less pure A-A machine).



You mean "compromised" by "multi-role"??

:)

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 30 Nov 2017, 17:52
by mixelflick
XanderCrews wrote:
milosh wrote:I think that is wrong because Su-57 could be base for other fighter types not just Russian F-22 equivalent (more less pure A-A machine).



You mean "compromised" by "multi-role"??

:)


The Russians have an uncanny ability to build (supposed) air to ground/air to sea capabilities into their air to air machines. Of course, you never see a Flanker with anything more than a rudimentary air to ground (usually dumb bombs) capability.

As for a decade on ice; Wonder where this leaves the navalised SU-57? They're going to be flying SU-33's or more likely Mig-29K's from their carriers for the next 20 years!

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 30 Nov 2017, 18:52
by hythelday
mixelflick wrote:
XanderCrews wrote:
milosh wrote:I think that is wrong because Su-57 could be base for other fighter types not just Russian F-22 equivalent (more less pure A-A machine).



You mean "compromised" by "multi-role"??

:)


The Russians have an uncanny ability to build (supposed) air to ground/air to sea capabilities into their air to air machines. Of course, you never see a Flanker with anything more than a rudimentary air to ground (usually dumb bombs) capability.

As for a decade on ice; Wonder where this leaves the navalised SU-57? They're going to be flying SU-33's or more likely Mig-29K's from their carriers for the next 20 years!



Kuznetsov's refurbishment budget (supposedly) got slashed in half, so it doesn't really matter.

Man, Crimea was totally worth it. :doh:

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 30 Nov 2017, 20:36
by XanderCrews
milosh wrote:That explain a lot. New head of Russian AF isn't from AF but from army and he want what boots on ground need, those are UAV&UCAV and more fighter bombers (Su-30 and Su-34).

).


As a Marine and a boot on the ground, I like to remind people that although CAS is wonderful, the ability to not be attacked by enemy airpower is pretty nice too.


But that's just me. No wait it's not, there are literally hundreds of examples and reports of what happens when enemy air can attack with impunity

You can't undertake offensive operations without control of the air.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 01 Dec 2017, 00:07
by nutshell
XanderCrews wrote:
nutshell wrote:RuAF giving up.

F35 so good it doesnt even need to fire a single missile to achieve air superiority :mrgreen:

Air dominance through superior... development roadmap.

P.s.: so, su57 ioc just in time to watch the bees shooting lasers. Lol.



Lol

Where was that Aussie who was telling us this thing was like a stealthy foxbat that could fly at 80000 ft? And we didn't have a chance.

Where is the Rafale fanboy who was talking us that 5th generation engines aren't special or different in any way?


They are all enjoying F35 death spiral ofc and cheering for the russian crafty engineering ( which is somewhat "mystical ").

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 01 Dec 2017, 02:32
by rheonomic
XanderCrews wrote:As a Marine and a boot on the ground, I like to remind people that although CAS is wonderful, the ability to not be attacked by enemy airpower is pretty nice too.


There's also the question of CAS vs BAI.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 01 Dec 2017, 06:48
by zaltys
So far haven’t seen any similar news on russian forums. Knowing russians, I would expect a lot of noise on their forums with such stuff. It looks like unconfirmed information atm, but from their current situation I can totally expect it to be true.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 01 Dec 2017, 23:59
by juretrn
It seems someone triggered Russia Stronkists over at Keypub HARD. You can almost see the foaming at the mouths in some of the posts.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 04 Dec 2017, 20:14
by mixelflick
Anyone hear anything more about this?

"Russia is reportedly working on a second and much cheaper stealth fighter derived from the Mikoyan MiG 1.44, a design that was beaten in a competition for Russia's fifth generation fighter by the current stealth fighter, the Sukhoi PAK FA..."

I found this interesting as the Mig I.44 seems decidedly un-stealthy. Is it possible they forgo the SU-57 for another, cheaper design??

Read more: http://www.chinatopix.com/articles/1116 ... z50JyjkjWr

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 05 Dec 2017, 00:19
by XanderCrews
mixelflick wrote:Anyone hear anything more about this?

"Russia is reportedly working on a second and much cheaper stealth fighter derived from the Mikoyan MiG 1.44, a design that was beaten in a competition for Russia's fifth generation fighter by the current stealth fighter, the Sukhoi PAK FA..."

I found this interesting as the Mig I.44 seems decidedly un-stealthy. Is it possible they forgo the SU-57 for another, cheaper design??

Read more: http://www.chinatopix.com/articles/1116 ... z50JyjkjWr


I hope it's true. I hope they create dozens of projects that result in No or few production aircraft.

Keep it up Russia, you're doing great.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 05 Dec 2017, 03:14
by rheonomic
MiG 1.44 was a POS and only a tech demonstrator IIRC.

Wasn't MiG supposedly working on a low end MiG-29 successor at some point? I forgot the project abbreviation.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 05 Dec 2017, 03:46
by southernphantom
rheonomic wrote:MiG 1.44 was a POS and only a tech demonstrator IIRC.

Wasn't MiG supposedly working on a low end MiG-29 successor at some point? I forgot the project abbreviation.


Yes, that would be the MiG LMFS.

We'll see if it delivers an operational aircraft in meaningful numbers, or is just more Russian Plasma Stealth® vaporware nonsense.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 05 Dec 2017, 05:50
by Corsair1963
southernphantom wrote:
rheonomic wrote:MiG 1.44 was a POS and only a tech demonstrator IIRC.

Wasn't MiG supposedly working on a low end MiG-29 successor at some point? I forgot the project abbreviation.


Yes, that would be the MiG LMFS.

We'll see if it delivers an operational aircraft in meaningful numbers, or is just more Russian Plasma Stealth® vaporware nonsense.



In my opinion Russia made a colossal mistake. When it decided to pursue the PAK-FA over the LMFS. As the former has virtually no export potential..... :doh:

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 05 Dec 2017, 09:18
by hythelday
Corsair1963 wrote:
southernphantom wrote:
rheonomic wrote:MiG 1.44 was a POS and only a tech demonstrator IIRC.

Wasn't MiG supposedly working on a low end MiG-29 successor at some point? I forgot the project abbreviation.


Yes, that would be the MiG LMFS.

We'll see if it delivers an operational aircraft in meaningful numbers, or is just more Russian Plasma Stealth® vaporware nonsense.



In my opinion Russia made a colossal mistake. When it decided to pursue the PAK-FA over the LMFS. As the former has virtually no export potential..... :doh:



There were articles ~5 years ago by Russian "experts" saying demand for export PAK-FAs is roughly 600 globally. There are less advanced Flankers than that, lol.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 05 Dec 2017, 12:08
by madrat
MiG as a political machine has completely lost momentum. They could have pursued many avenues, but Russian leadership pushed policy that locked them out of competitions. MiG has had one brilliant design after another succumb to its weak marketing to its own government's incoherent support strategy. (The Chinese seem to have benefited from MiG, Tupovlev, and Yakovlev being eaten alive by Sukhoi dominance.) It's not bad for the West that Russia eats its own. It's a good thing that the world isn't full of single-engine Russian light fighters and attack planes.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 05 Dec 2017, 17:16
by XanderCrews
madrat wrote:MiG as a political machine has completely lost momentum. They could have pursued many avenues, but Russian leadership pushed policy that locked them out of competitions. MiG has had one brilliant design after another succumb to its weak marketing to its own government's incoherent support strategy. (The Chinese seem to have benefited from MiG, Tupovlev, and Yakovlev being eaten alive by Sukhoi dominance.) It's not bad for the West that Russia eats its own. It's a good thing that the world isn't full of single-engine Russian light fighters and attack planes.



It's all UAC

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 05 Dec 2017, 17:47
by durahawk
madrat wrote:MiG as a political machine has completely lost momentum. They could have pursued many avenues, but Russian leadership pushed policy that locked them out of competitions. MiG has had one brilliant design after another succumb to its weak marketing to its own government's incoherent support strategy. (The Chinese seem to have benefited from MiG, Tupovlev, and Yakovlev being eaten alive by Sukhoi dominance.) It's not bad for the West that Russia eats its own. It's a good thing that the world isn't full of single-engine Russian light fighters and attack planes.


Without the $6.7B progress payment from India for the FGFA the SU-57 project will be on life support.

I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if the next 25 odd years we see a J-20 or J-31 with Russian Air Force or Navy liveries. They simply don't have the capital to develop a worthwhile fifth gen on there own before it becomes entirely irrelevant. There would be a lot of Russia Stronk pride to overcome, but Russia has looked to the export market before to fill urgent operational needs (see French Mistral class fiasco). At the very least, I would expect to see a Sino-Russian fighter collaboration in the future.

Of course, a spike in oil prices in the next few years could turn this whole thing around for the Russkies too.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 05 Dec 2017, 19:15
by XanderCrews
durahawk wrote:
madrat wrote:MiG as a political machine has completely lost momentum. They could have pursued many avenues, but Russian leadership pushed policy that locked them out of competitions. MiG has had one brilliant design after another succumb to its weak marketing to its own government's incoherent support strategy. (The Chinese seem to have benefited from MiG, Tupovlev, and Yakovlev being eaten alive by Sukhoi dominance.) It's not bad for the West that Russia eats its own. It's a good thing that the world isn't full of single-engine Russian light fighters and attack planes.


Without the $6.7B progress payment from India for the FGFA the SU-57 project will be on life support.

I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if the next 25 odd years we see a J-20 or J-31 with Russian Air Force or Navy liveries. They simply don't have the capital to develop a worthwhile fifth gen on there own before it becomes entirely irrelevant. There would be a lot of Russia Stronk pride to overcome, but Russia has looked to the export market before to fill urgent operational needs (see French Mistral class fiasco). At the very least, I would expect to see a Sino-Russian fighter collaboration in the future.

Of course, a spike in oil prices in the next few years could turn this whole thing around for the Russkies too.



According to the Komrades at key pubs they don't need India or their money

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 05 Dec 2017, 22:15
by swiss
It seems the Su-57 has her first test flight with one Izdeliye 30. Or at least with a new nozzle. :wink:


Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 05 Dec 2017, 22:46
by project458
XanderCrews wrote:
durahawk wrote:
madrat wrote:MiG as a political machine has completely lost momentum. They could have pursued many avenues, but Russian leadership pushed policy that locked them out of competitions. MiG has had one brilliant design after another succumb to its weak marketing to its own government's incoherent support strategy. (The Chinese seem to have benefited from MiG, Tupovlev, and Yakovlev being eaten alive by Sukhoi dominance.) It's not bad for the West that Russia eats its own. It's a good thing that the world isn't full of single-engine Russian light fighters and attack planes.


Without the $6.7B progress payment from India for the FGFA the SU-57 project will be on life support.

I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if the next 25 odd years we see a J-20 or J-31 with Russian Air Force or Navy liveries. They simply don't have the capital to develop a worthwhile fifth gen on there own before it becomes entirely irrelevant. There would be a lot of Russia Stronk pride to overcome, but Russia has looked to the export market before to fill urgent operational needs (see French Mistral class fiasco). At the very least, I would expect to see a Sino-Russian fighter collaboration in the future.

Of course, a spike in oil prices in the next few years could turn this whole thing around for the Russkies too.



According to the Komrades at key pubs they don't need India or their money



Because we don't, for the last 14 years PAK FA has been funded entirely by Russian money, and this article is a joke, no hard sources , I take the word of Russian air force commander over an some analyst.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 05 Dec 2017, 22:51
by milosh
swiss wrote:It seems the Su-57 has her first test flight with one Izdeliye 30. Or at least with a new nozzle. :wink:



New engine and new nozzle, nozzle looks more as LOAL nozzle then Salyut one we saw earlier, and nozzle is quite shorter.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 05 Dec 2017, 23:12
by XanderCrews
project458 wrote:

Because we don't, for the last 14 years PAK FA has been funded entirely by Russian money, and this article is a joke, no hard sources , I take the word of Russian air force commander over an some analyst.


Hi KGB

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 05 Dec 2017, 23:31
by project458
XanderCrews wrote:
project458 wrote:

Because we don't, for the last 14 years PAK FA has been funded entirely by Russian money, and this article is a joke, no hard sources , I take the word of Russian air force commander over an some analyst.


Hi KGB


Hey, uninformed :)

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 05 Dec 2017, 23:56
by XanderCrews
project458 wrote:
XanderCrews wrote:
project458 wrote:

Because we don't, for the last 14 years PAK FA has been funded entirely by Russian money, and this article is a joke, no hard sources , I take the word of Russian air force commander over an some analyst.


Hi KGB


Hey, uninformed :)


Inform us

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 06 Dec 2017, 01:01
by project458
XanderCrews wrote: Inform us




About what exactly? How this entire thread is based on a opinion of some analyst who has zero inside knowledge ? I remember how people on this forum said Su-57 is fiction and it will never fly, then when it flew they said it would be canceled, now 7 years and 9th prototypes later and with 10th and 11th a few months away, Su-57 is still here, and sometime in 2018 Su-57 will enter LRIP, and if people think there is a shortage of money, consider the fact that within the last decade alone Ruaf inducted 500+ Fixed wing platforms, thats second only to US, a broke country's doesn't have that kind of money to spend.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 06 Dec 2017, 02:45
by XanderCrews
project458 wrote:
XanderCrews wrote: Inform us


I remember how people on this forum said Su-57 is fiction and it will never fly, then when it flew they said it would be canceled.


Really? Who said that?

I know I didn't. You are new but not everyone here is an individual. Some were saying that?

Some were saying it would take years and years before they churned out even 10 prototypes as well...

now 7 years and 9th prototypes later and with 10th and 11th a few months away,


Image

7 years?

FAKE NEWS ALERT:

if going just by the first flight its been nearly 8 years, seeing as the first prototype flew in January of 2010... And of course the PAK-FA program itself goes back further than just 2010.


Image

I guess I was wrong when I asked you to inform us seeing as you don't know what youre talking about. In your defense you were probably too young to remember 2009? or maybe you just got caught lying? or maybe just completely ignorant?

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 06 Dec 2017, 05:18
by Corsair1963
project458 wrote:
XanderCrews wrote: Inform us




About what exactly? How this entire thread is based on a opinion of some analyst who has zero inside knowledge ? I remember how people on this forum said Su-57 is fiction and it will never fly, then when it flew they said it would be canceled, now 7 years and 9th prototypes later and with 10th and 11th a few months away, Su-57 is still here, and sometime in 2018 Su-57 will enter LRIP, and if people think there is a shortage of money, consider the fact that within the last decade alone Ruaf inducted 500+ Fixed wing platforms, thats second only to US, a broke country's doesn't have that kind of money to spend.


Yet, the future hardly looks promising for either the Su-57 or Russian Air Force...... :doh:

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 06 Dec 2017, 05:21
by Corsair1963
hythelday wrote:

There were articles ~5 years ago by Russian "experts" saying demand for export PAK-FAs is roughly 600 globally. There are less advanced Flankers than that, lol.



If, India leaves the PAK-FA/FGFA Program with Russia and the odds are looking good that it will. Then the prospects for future export orders for the type look grim indeed! :shock:

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 06 Dec 2017, 05:24
by Corsair1963
milosh wrote:
swiss wrote:It seems the Su-57 has her first test flight with one Izdeliye 30. Or at least with a new nozzle. :wink:



New engine and new nozzle, nozzle looks more as LOAL nozzle then Salyut one we saw earlier, and nozzle is quite shorter.



Maybe the production version of the izdeliye 30 won't have TVC? Which, would explain why it's shorter.... :|

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 06 Dec 2017, 05:36
by charlielima223
I remember when the PAKFA came out, it was on everyone's radar (no pun intended). It every interwebs commentator and "analyst" propped it up as the next deadliest thing to the F-22. Now as time has passed, (to me) it looks like a tiger with no fangs or claws... especially when you compare how much more advanced the F-22 and F-35 are now and how much more they will be in the foreseeable future.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 06 Dec 2017, 05:43
by Corsair1963
durahawk wrote:
I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if the next 25 odd years we see a J-20 or J-31 with Russian Air Force or Navy liveries. They simply don't have the capital to develop a worthwhile fifth gen on there own before it becomes entirely irrelevant. There would be a lot of Russia Stronk pride to overcome, but Russia has looked to the export market before to fill urgent operational needs (see French Mistral class fiasco). At the very least, I would expect to see a Sino-Russian fighter collaboration in the future.

Of course, a spike in oil prices in the next few years could turn this whole thing around for the Russkies too.


That is what I've been saying for sometime now. That Russia will be forced to partner with China. Especially, in such segments as fighters. With the J-31 being the most obvious choice.........

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 06 Dec 2017, 05:45
by Corsair1963
charlielima223 wrote:I remember when the PAKFA came out, it was on everyone's radar (no pun intended). It every interwebs commentator and "analyst" propped it up as the next deadliest thing to the F-22. Now as time has passed, (to me) it looks like a tiger with no fangs or claws... especially when you compare how much more advanced the F-22 and F-35 are now and how much more they will be in the foreseeable future.



I agree as time goes by fewer and fewer seem concern about the Su-57???

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 06 Dec 2017, 05:47
by Corsair1963
XanderCrews wrote:
According to the Komrades at key pubs they don't need India or their money



:lmao:

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 06 Dec 2017, 13:48
by milosh
Corsair1963 wrote:Maybe the production version of the izdeliye 30 won't have TVC? Which, would explain why it's shorter.... :|


Very unlikely.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 06 Dec 2017, 14:39
by XanderCrews
Corsair1963 wrote:
charlielima223 wrote:I remember when the PAKFA came out, it was on everyone's radar (no pun intended). It every interwebs commentator and "analyst" propped it up as the next deadliest thing to the F-22. Now as time has passed, (to me) it looks like a tiger with no fangs or claws... especially when you compare how much more advanced the F-22 and F-35 are now and how much more they will be in the foreseeable future.



I agree as time goes by fewer and fewer seem concern about the Su-57???



Engine is still years away. When you build only 9 prototypes and still lose one to a fire. India which is the biggest partner says things about it that make F-35 critics blush

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 06 Dec 2017, 15:43
by hythelday
XanderCrews wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:
charlielima223 wrote:I remember when the PAKFA came out, it was on everyone's radar (no pun intended). It every interwebs commentator and "analyst" propped it up as the next deadliest thing to the F-22. Now as time has passed, (to me) it looks like a tiger with no fangs or claws... especially when you compare how much more advanced the F-22 and F-35 are now and how much more they will be in the foreseeable future.



I agree as time goes by fewer and fewer seem concern about the Su-57???



Engine is still years away. When you build only 9 prototypes and still lose one to a fire. India which is the biggest partner says things about it that make F-35 critics blush


They did repair the burnt plane though.

Putting one Izd 30 to test it out is... interesting decision. Then again Russians do things differently.

Maybe it's not all doomy and gloomy for Su-57 after all, but it still seems to be following Flanker development pattern.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 06 Dec 2017, 16:52
by XanderCrews
hythelday wrote:
They did repair the burnt plane though.

Putting one Izd 30 to test it out is... interesting decision. Then again Russians do things differently.

Maybe it's not all doomy and gloomy for Su-57 after all, but it still seems to be following Flanker development pattern.



It was more a reference about why people don't seem worried. If we go but what our "informed" new guy says and only count development from the first flight on we have 9 prototypes the last 8 years.

Where was the F-22, F-35, and super hornet 8 years after first flight? And they all had new engines as well.

First flights month and year:

SH November 1995
F-22 September 1997
F-35 December 2006


And we all know how ambitious the F-35 is.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 07 Dec 2017, 01:37
by nutshell
9 protoypes in 7 years...

AMAZING I SWEAR.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 07 Dec 2017, 05:15
by Corsair1963
The Su-57 is just not a viable option for the Indian Air Force! :doh:


So, better to cut ties with the PAK-FA Program and move oooon! :wink:

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 07 Dec 2017, 21:56
by XanderCrews
nutshell wrote:9 protoypes in 7 years...

AMAZING I SWEAR.



It's more like 9 in 10 years too :doh:

It keeps me up at night too. Imagine where this program will be in 10 more years or 15? Maybe 50 of these things in vastly different lots and configs

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 08 Dec 2017, 01:25
by project458
XanderCrews wrote:
project458 wrote:
XanderCrews wrote: Inform us


I remember how people on this forum said Su-57 is fiction and it will never fly, then when it flew they said it would be canceled.


Really? Who said that?

I know I didn't. You are new but not everyone here is an individual. Some were saying that?

Some were saying it would take years and years before they churned out even 10 prototypes as well...

now 7 years and 9th prototypes later and with 10th and 11th a few months away,



if going just by the first flight its been nearly 8 years, seeing as the first prototype flew in January of 2010... And of course the PAK-FA program itself goes back further than just 2010.
I guess I was wrong when I asked you to inform us seeing as you don't know what youre talking about. In your defense you were probably too young to remember 2009? or maybe you just got caught lying? or maybe just completely ignorant?


Yes that would be 2002 thats when the PAK FA program began.


Corsair1963 wrote:

Yet, the future hardly looks promising for either the Su-57 or Russian Air Force...... :doh:


Care to elaborate ? [/quote]


I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if the next 25 odd years we see a J-20 or J-31 with Russian Air Force or Navy liveries


Ridiculous, Su-57 hits IOC next year, but please keep thinking about fantasy scenarios.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 08 Dec 2017, 01:35
by project458
nutshell wrote:9 protoypes in 7 years...

AMAZING I SWEAR.



Sorry, we don't do concurrency, where we build hundreds of aircraft before the Aircraft hits IOC, then those said aircraft turn out to be useless.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/militar ... or-combat/

XanderCrews wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:
charlielima223 wrote:I remember when the PAKFA came out, it was on everyone's radar (no pun intended). It every interwebs commentator and "analyst" propped it up as the next deadliest thing to the F-22. Now as time has passed, (to me) it looks like a tiger with no fangs or claws... especially when you compare how much more advanced the F-22 and F-35 are now and how much more they will be in the foreseeable future.



I agree as time goes by fewer and fewer seem concern about the Su-57???



Engine is still years away. When you build only 9 prototypes and still lose one to a fire. India which is the biggest partner says things about it that make F-35 critics blush



Engine is already in flight testing, and speaking about fires

https://theaviationist.com/2015/06/06/f ... re-images/

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 08 Dec 2017, 01:45
by white_lightning35
How I imagine this discussion going.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 08 Dec 2017, 02:32
by white_lightning35
Hmmm...So you edited out the part of your post where you said Russia planes hit IOC after hundreds have been built, and then replaced that statement with "the PAK fa is going IOC next year". With ten whole planes!

The pak fa seems to me to be an effort to make a dying country seem relevant. They make incremental changes out to be game-changers, and that the whole world will tremble before their "fifth-gen air plane". Putin, being a very bold leader, seems to have made some Russians think that they are now back in the old days, taking on the evil Yankees. The world, however, changes. The russians come out with a new mighty engine for the pak fa, the US is bringing up the ADVENT engine. They claim their airplane flies higher and faster, which it very much could, but that does not mean as much as it did. A paradigm shift is what is needed, and that is what the f-35 brings. Battles are not fought like they once were, and you either adapt or die. The russians aren't seeming to get that with respect to their air force.

The Cold War proved that you need to have not only a well-funded military, which Rossiya doesn't really have, but also a reasonably wealthy populace, which Rossiya certainly doesn't have. It is no longer the top "bad guy" on the world stage. That would be China. Some people think the US occupies that spot, but I don't give a s##t what they think, because they're morons if they really can't see the difference in ideals between the US and China/Rossiya.

This post was reasonably off-topic, which I apologize for, but it was mainly directed at the russia stronkists out there.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 08 Dec 2017, 03:00
by XanderCrews
project458 wrote:
Yes that would be 2002 thats when the PAK FA program began.


So you were dead Wrong? That Didn't take long.

Thought you were going to tell us the real deal. All these silly F-16.net folks are already catching you on your lies

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 08 Dec 2017, 03:20
by XanderCrews
white_lightning35 wrote:Hmmm...So you edited out the part of your post where you said Russia planes hit IOC after hundreds have been built, and then replaced that statement with "the PAK fa is going IOC next year". With ten whole planes!



I'm curious about that too. Wouldn't fit any western definition of IOC

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 08 Dec 2017, 09:32
by project458
XanderCrews wrote:
project458 wrote:
Yes that would be 2002 thats when the PAK FA program began.


So you were dead Wrong? That Didn't take long.



The first flight was 7 Years 10 Months 9 Days, ago is that exact enough LOL ? and speaking about being " dead wrong " how about I mention every dead wrong post that you made in this thread and then debunk them with sources instead of responding with childish memes ?

Accept the challenge ?


Thought you were going to tell us the real deal. All these silly F-16.net folks are already catching you on your lies



Well considering how some guy in this thread said that Russia will be flying with Chinese Stealth fighters in a few years, " the word "Silly " would be dead on.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 08 Dec 2017, 12:20
by milosh
@white_lightning35

Top bad country in world doesn't have nothing with ideals but with what that country do to other countries.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 08 Dec 2017, 15:14
by mk82
Project 458/Commissar of the Glorious People’s Republic of Bullpucky: SU 57 is going to IOC in 2018

SU 57 going to IOC in 2018!!?? Hahahahaha......hohohohho......hahahahahaha......with just 10 prototypes.........hohohohoho......pull the other one! Funny how the SU 57’s IOC is getting later and later......Lay off that homemade Vodka Tovarisch and drink some Stolichnaya. Join the winning team.....and stop posting propaganda b*llshit.

Or just keep doing that Hapok dancing Tovarisch......

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 08 Dec 2017, 15:40
by mixelflick
SU-57 IOC next year? That's rich..

So in a year's time or less, they're going to have that engine perfected, crews trained to fly and maintain it, a logistical support network, all kinds of weapons tested, tactics developed, integrated with "4++" gen Flankers, AWACS, certify it for aerial refueling, fund it and all the front line units to support it?

Um, did you miss the part about only building 12 and pushing things back to 2027?


http://warisboring.com/russia-is-haltin ... -a-decade/

I suppose the carrier based variant will be flying off decks in 2018 too??

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 08 Dec 2017, 18:02
by zaltys
There is information from "insiders" that 6 operational pilots are trained on Su-57 and first 2 serial production aircraft will be transferred to RuAF in May 2018. Sure, they won't be in advertised configuration, IMO.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 08 Dec 2017, 18:02
by durahawk
project458 wrote:Well considering how some guy in this thread said that Russia will be flying with Chinese Stealth fighters in a few years, " the word "Silly " would be dead on.


I said "25 odd years" to be exact, and "wouldn't be surprised" which is distinct from a forgone conclusion. But continue spreading your misinformation.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 08 Dec 2017, 18:40
by milosh
mixelflick wrote:Um, did you miss the part about only building 12 and pushing things back to 2027?

http://warisboring.com/russia-is-haltin ... -a-decade/


That text used this memo:
http://www.ponarseurasia.org/memo/russi ... -2018-2027

which used this text for that 2027 estimate:
http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-bu ... aste-21736

and if you read that original text you will not see nothing about 2027 :doh:

all there is what is already known, smaller number of serial Su-57 will be made, they will have 117 engines to start IOC procedure. And of course IOC is expected to end in early 2020 when new engine is also fully developed.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 08 Dec 2017, 23:40
by XanderCrews
project458 wrote:

The first flight was 7 Years 10 Months 9 Days, ago is that exact enough LOL ?


No. Because you are failing to take into account the construction time for the first prototype when doing the math on how many prototypes have been constructed So again you are wrong and inaccurate. You are then using that inaccurate remark as "proof" when it's not true in the first place.

7 years and 9th prototypes later and with 10th and 11th a few months away



Thus you are dead wrong in your assertion and measurement of the programs progress by your own parameters.

It's closet to about 11 years producing 9 prototypes and not one with production representative engines yet, which is odd as you are also telling us the test fleet will be IOC?




and speaking about being " dead wrong " how about I mention every dead wrong post that you made in this thread and then debunk them with sources instead of responding with childish memes ?

Accept the challenge ?


By all means, bur Fact check yourself first, your credibility is next to nothing so far.

Well considering how some guy in this thread said that Russia will be flying with Chinese Stealth fighters in a few years, " the word "Silly " would be dead on.


Silly like forgetting basic timelines?

Protip: if you're going to be the authority on factual information you may want to use facts and be informed.

So far I see nothing but a nationalist fanboy with zero background in avaition but a mastery of propoganda and personal attacks.

You won't last long here

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 11 Dec 2017, 04:30
by Corsair1963
project458 wrote:

Well considering how some guy in this thread said that Russia will be flying with Chinese Stealth fighters in a few years, " the word "Silly " would be dead on.


How many Su-57's at well over $100 Million do you think Russia can afford by 2030??? :shock:

Also, Fighter-Bombers (i.e. Strike Fighters) have been at the core of Tactical Military Aviation since WWII. So, you think Russia can live without such a type???

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 11 Dec 2017, 04:36
by Corsair1963
zaltys wrote:There is information from "insiders" that 6 operational pilots are trained on Su-57 and first 2 serial production aircraft will be transferred to RuAF in May 2018. Sure, they won't be in advertised configuration, IMO.



Russia is just doing the usual "spin". :shock: Those pilots are "Test Pilots" and those aircraft are "Preproduction".....

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 11 Dec 2017, 13:53
by mixelflick
At over 100 million, I doubt we'll see a production run of much over 100.

That 2nd stage engine (by their own estimates) could take up to 10 years to develop. What of the AESA radar, weapons tests (including brand new air to air missiles), stealth improvements etc?? Look, if they really are going IOC in 2018 or 2019, they'll be flying one immature, underpowered and suspect jet into battle.

More likely is the fact they've figured out the SU-57 is no great improvement over the SU-35. It's pretty clear the air force is stoked with the SU-35, not so much with the SU-57. Just today, another article was posted concerning the SU-57 (http://warisboring.com/russias-su-57-st ... d-to-fail/).

So it seems if the lack of stealth, appropriate engines and other design flaws don't doom it, the politics behind it will...

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 11 Dec 2017, 15:09
by milosh
New engine isn't here because of power but because of stealth and cheaper maintenance:

Изд 30. - турбореактивный двухконтурный двигатель поколения 5 с форсажной камерой сгорания.
Двигатель позволит обеспечить специальные характеристики по радиолокационной незаметности в ППС.
Основные преимущества - увеличение тяги на 5%, снижение удельного веса на 25%, сокращение общего числа ступеней.
Достижение специальных характеристик по РЛ незаметности обеспечивает интегральный ВНА из разработанного композитного материала.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 11 Dec 2017, 17:56
by juretrn
mixelflick wrote:http://warisboring.com/russias-su-57-stealth-fighter-is-doomed-to-fail

Just more BS from the usual suspects at WiB. You (we) rage at F-35 related BS, but we're willing to believe anything WiB comes up with in regard with Su-57? Meh.
The whole "not ready until 2027" claim is nothing but another D. Majumdar cock-and-bull story.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 12 Dec 2017, 06:30
by Corsair1963
juretrn wrote:
mixelflick wrote:http://warisboring.com/russias-su-57-stealth-fighter-is-doomed-to-fail

Just more BS from the usual suspects at WiB. You (we) rage at F-35 related BS, but we're willing to believe anything WiB comes up with in regard with Su-57? Meh.
The whole "not ready until 2027" claim is nothing but another D. Majumdar cock-and-bull story.


Really, the izdeliye 30 just recently had it's first test flight in a prototype Su-57. So, what part of 2027 don't you get??? :doh:

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 12 Dec 2017, 16:23
by XanderCrews
juretrn wrote:
mixelflick wrote:http://warisboring.com/russias-su-57-stealth-fighter-is-doomed-to-fail

Just more BS from the usual suspects at WiB. You (we) rage at F-35 related BS, but we're willing to believe anything WiB comes up with in regard with Su-57? Meh.
The whole "not ready until 2027" claim is nothing but another D. Majumdar cock-and-bull story.


Define "ready"

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 12 Dec 2017, 16:33
by garrya
juretrn wrote:
mixelflick wrote:http://warisboring.com/russias-su-57-stealth-fighter-is-doomed-to-fail

Just more BS from the usual suspects at WiB. You (we) rage at F-35 related BS, but we're willing to believe anything WiB comes up with in regard with Su-57? Meh.
The whole "not ready until 2027" claim is nothing but another D. Majumdar cock-and-bull story.

Agree, he only wrote that because it is catchy and he knew it will bring more traffic.