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Military aircraft - Post cold war aircraft, including for example B-2, Gripen, F-18E/F Super Hornet, Rafale, and Typhoon.
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XanderCrews

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Unread post06 Sep 2017, 17:59

juretrn wrote:I present to you a true believer:
https://www.quora.com/Should-India-go-f ... aab-Gripen


That guy posts on best fighter for Canada LOL (note the Avro Arrow avatar)

He displays the kind of ignorance and stupidity Ive come to expect from the Gripen Collective
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swiss

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Unread post06 Sep 2017, 18:05

The f-15 is indeed to big for Switzerland. I Think even the SH. Especially for the caverns we have for the Fighters.

We need the new fighters mainly for Airpolicing. So i think the Rafale has good chances. The f-35 looks like overkill for Switzerland. The Swiss newspaper also supposed, that the F-35 are to much for the possibilities and the Budget of the Swiss AF.
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XanderCrews

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Unread post06 Sep 2017, 18:06

loke wrote:
F-15 for Switzerland??? Complete nonsense.


I believe he was pointing out not so much the F-15, but the notion that the same company would not bid 2 aircraft, only one.

Image

Also, the customer is always right. Had Switzerland asked for information on F-16, do you really think LM would have said: "sorry we won't sell it to you"?


Interesting loke, because earlier you said:

loke wrote:According to the experts on this site only fanboys (and the Swedish and Brazilian Air Force) will choose Gripen E over F-16 -- which begs the question, why did Switzerland once again ignore the technically superior, and also cheaper F-16 over the under-powered, expensive Gripen E, in this new competition?


now you are admitting the Swiss didn't bother to look at the F-16 at all? So how is the selection proof of anything, again?


In addition: Why did LM not offer the F-16 in the previous competition in Switzerland then?



The Swiss never gave LM an RFP. RFPs went to Typhoon, Gripen, Rafale, and Super Hornet. Super Hornet bowed out because it could not fit in the hangars.

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XanderCrews

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Unread post06 Sep 2017, 18:31

loke wrote:According to the experts on this site only fanboys (and the Swedish and Brazilian Air Force) will choose Gripen E over F-16 -- which begs the question, why did Switzerland once again ignore the technically superior, and also cheaper F-16 over the under-powered, expensive Gripen E, in this new competition?


That proves it!
'
Image


Oh no, wait. a singular example cannot be applied to the whole
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swiss

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Unread post06 Sep 2017, 21:54

XanderCrews wrote:

The Swiss never gave LM an RFP. RFPs went to Typhoon, Gripen, Rafale, and Super Hornet. Super Hornet bowed out because it could not fit in the hangars.


You are 100% right. When i remember right, the Swiss AF chose the Hornet over der Viper because it was the better multirole fighter. End even for the FA-18 they had to increase the caverns ( Hangars).
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hornetfinn

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Unread post07 Sep 2017, 07:04

swiss wrote:The f-15 is indeed to big for Switzerland. I Think even the SH. Especially for the caverns we have for the Fighters.

We need the new fighters mainly for Airpolicing. So i think the Rafale has good chances. The f-35 looks like overkill for Switzerland. The Swiss newspaper also supposed, that the F-35 are to much for the possibilities and the Budget of the Swiss AF.


All public data (as in real information from competitions and users) points out that F-35 is cheaper to buy and operate than Super Hornet and Eurofighter Typhoon. Dassault Rafale is in similar ballpark as those two and would not be significantly cheaper. For example Danish evaluation indicates that F-35A lifetime costs are about third cheaper than EF Typhoon and acquisition costs of about 50 percent lower (which is very important politically). Super Hornet was found to have slightly (5-10 percent) higher lifetime costs than F-35A there but acquisition costs were also almost 50 percent higher per aircraft. Dassault Rafale is likely somewhere between SH and EF Typhoon in costs and I've really hard time believing it could be cheaper or even similar cost-wise than F-35.

Gripen is the only candidate that could have lower costs than F-35A. However public information again seem to indicate that it's not significantly so. F-35 has so much more powerful sensors and avionics systems and longer range that less of them would be needed to achieve similar or better coverage in air policing. I see Gripen having some chances but mostly due politics and not because of military or economic merits.

I don't think F-35 is technologically too much for Swiss Air Force. Maintenance personnel are saying that it's not more difficult to maintain than legacy fighters. Sure F-35 is technologically the most advanced, but that doesn't mean it's more difficult to own and operate.
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swiss

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Unread post07 Sep 2017, 08:11

hornetfinn wrote:
swiss wrote:The f-15 is indeed to big for Switzerland. I Think even the SH. Especially for the caverns we have for the Fighters.

We need the new fighters mainly for Airpolicing. So i think the Rafale has good chances. The f-35 looks like overkill for Switzerland. The Swiss newspaper also supposed, that the F-35 are to much for the possibilities and the Budget of the Swiss AF.


All public data (as in real information from competitions and users) points out that F-35 is cheaper to buy and operate than Super Hornet and Eurofighter Typhoon. Dassault Rafale is in similar ballpark as those two and would not be significantly cheaper. For example Danish evaluation indicates that F-35A lifetime costs are about third cheaper than EF Typhoon and acquisition costs of about 50 percent lower (which is very important politically). Super Hornet was found to have slightly (5-10 percent) higher lifetime costs than F-35A there but acquisition costs were also almost 50 percent higher per aircraft. Dassault Rafale is likely somewhere between SH and EF Typhoon in costs and I've really hard time believing it could be cheaper or even similar cost-wise than F-35.

Gripen is the only candidate that could have lower costs than F-35A. However public information again seem to indicate that it's not significantly so. F-35 has so much more powerful sensors and avionics systems and longer range that less of them would be needed to achieve similar or better coverage in air policing. I see Gripen having some chances but mostly due politics and not because of military or economic merits.

I don't think F-35 is technologically too much for Swiss Air Force. Maintenance personnel are saying that it's not more difficult to maintain than legacy fighters. Sure F-35 is technologically the most advanced, but that doesn't mean it's more difficult to own and operate.


Hello Hornetfinn.

I fully agree with you. The F-35 is the best technical option for Switzerland. When im remember right the prize for the F-35 is or will be soon under 90 Million Dollar. So yes even cheaper than the Rafale. But, and there is a big But. Politics! :wink: The last Swiss Minister of defense Ueli Maurer chose the Gripen. A "Paipertiger" and the worst of the 3 Fighter we testet. Hell even the old Hornet was better.
So i really hope his successor Guy Parmalin will do a better Job. But he is from the French part of Switzerland. And he wants to intense the relationship with France. So thats whey i also said the Rafale is good chances.

BTW i enjoy to read your Posts. For me as a amateur, your are one of the best "sources" in this Forum. :D
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hornetfinn

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Unread post07 Sep 2017, 12:47

swiss wrote:Hello Hornetfinn.

I fully agree with you. The F-35 is the best technical option for Switzerland. When im remember right the prize for the F-35 is or will be soon under 90 Million Dollar. So yes even cheaper than the Rafale. But, and there is a big But. Politics! :wink: The last Swiss Minister of defense Ueli Maurer chose the Gripen. A "Paipertiger" and the worst of the 3 Fighter we testet. Hell even the old Hornet was better.
So i really hope his successor Guy Parmalin will do a better Job. But he is from the French part of Switzerland. And he wants to intense the relationship with France. So thats whey i also said the Rafale is good chances.

BTW i enjoy to read your Posts. For me as a amateur, your are one of the best "sources" in this Forum. :D


Oh, thank you for your kind words!

Sure, politics can turn anything around, like last time in Switzerland (from Rafale to Gripen). I think the choise will easily be F-35 on techical and military grounds, but Rafale has Frenchness on side while Gripen has Swedish neutrality and costs (at least perceived) on its side. Of course SH has the connection to current Hornets in use in Swiss AF. I think EF Typhoon is the least likely choice of all.

Btw, I'm not (and was not) surprised at all that F/A-18C/D was better than Gripen C it was compared to in the evaluation. Gripen has/had some good qualities (EW system and displays), but being so small meant it had significantly lower flight performance, range and weapons load. The same was found in Finnish evaluation in 1992 (and exercises with Swedish AF) and there is really no way to improve those things in significant way without making practically new aircraft. While Gripen C got more mature and got some decent upgrades, Hornets have been continually upgraded as well. F/A-18C/D is very good (and IMO way underrated) 4th gen fighter, although naturally later advanced 4th gen fighters (like Rafale, EF Typhoon and SH) are more capable. Gripen E will likely also be, but it will enter service about time F/A-18C/D exits service almost everywhere.
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Unread post08 Sep 2017, 02:13

F-15 only isn't an option on life-time program costs. Operationally it is a terrific option and is greatly underestimated when it comes to it's ability to operate off short runways. The Super Hornet, Gripen, and Rafale would, however, be the most over-rated in capability from short runways. If short field operations were the parameter, then obviously F-35B is a must have.

I personally believe Gripen E rebuilt from Gripen C is a bargain for what they need in Switzerland. It's not really about capabilities. If ROK had money to bank, they would even lean towards F-50A or some other T-50 Golden Eagle variant.
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Unread post16 Sep 2017, 01:18

Details on the Gripen electronic warfare suite have been classified. I suppose the details are still classified but now SAAB is marketing the next generation EW suite (to be installed on Gripen E) for use on fighters other than the Gripen. The next gen EW suite's name is Arexis. The website has a promotional video and some text.

Arexis is based on wideband digital technology specifically developed for robustness in the very complex signal environment of today. The core technologies in Arexis are ultra-wideband digital receivers and digital radio frequency memory devices, gallium nitride (GaN) solid state active electronically scanned array (AESA) jammer transmitters and interferometric direction finding systems.

Arexis products are adapted to fighter aircraft installation and environmental requirements. The architecture supports multi-function integration with other fighter aircraft sensors and countermeasures. One version of Arexis will be installed on board the new version of the
Gripen fighter, Gripen E/F.

Arexis also includes an advanced Electronic Attack (EA) application, with EW technologies adapted to the lower frequency ranges that are required to jam modern anti-stealth air defence systems. The EA application provides high output power and is packed in a pod to make it a role-specific solution.


http://saab.com/arexis
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loke

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Unread post17 Jan 2018, 19:53

Saab expands EW development work in Finland:

Swedish defence and security company Saab is expanding its activities in Finland having established a new development centre – the Saab Technology Centre (STC) – in Tampere, Finland.

For the first stage, Saab has established a unit at the STC with a focus on Electronic Warfare (EW). The unit contributes to deliveries for Saab´s current EW contracts for fighter aircraft, including Gripen E/F, the EW system for Airborne Early Warning & Control (AEW&C) aircraft, and the Electronic Support Measures/Electronic Intelligence systems (ESM/ELINT) used for land applications.

During 2017, Saab recruited a number of engineers and invested in the establishment of the STC in Tampere, including a development laboratory. The recruitment and investment will continue in 2018.


http://evertiq.com/news/43375
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loke

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Unread post07 Feb 2018, 19:56

In Sweden, the development of the Gripen E continues. Between its first flight in June 2017 and October of last year, the prototype n ° 39-8 has made 20 flight. He has since equipped with a set of sensors required further tests. Ground trials are underway with including the carriage tilting tanks and weapons. The next flight test campaign should focus on the carriage of these external loads.

The following two prototypes (39-9 and 39-10) are being assemblies and should be available soon for testing. 39-10 will be used for testing of the tactical systems. Saab also announced that the first Gripen E series is already being produced.


auto-translated from: http://www.air-cosmos.com/singapore-air ... n-e-106843
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playloud

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Unread post14 Feb 2018, 18:27

XanderCrews wrote:
juretrn wrote:I present to you a true believer:
https://www.quora.com/Should-India-go-f ... aab-Gripen


That guy posts on best fighter for Canada LOL (note the Avro Arrow avatar)

He displays the kind of ignorance and stupidity Ive come to expect from the Gripen Collective

"The JAS-39C’s RCS is 0.1m² which actually classifies it as a stealth aircraft as the B-2 Spirit has the exact same 0.1m² RCS..." "The JAS-39E Super Gripen, while larger, will have a significantly smaller RCS than even the JAS-39C"

So, he is saying the Gripen E has a lower RCS than the B-2. I don't know if there is a meme powerful enough for that statement.
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SpudmanWP

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Unread post14 Feb 2018, 18:48

FIFU "Thomas Hawk, dropped out of Bishop's University"
"The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."
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Unread post14 Feb 2018, 20:29

All these countries evaluating new fighters...

If the F-35 is going to be cheapest and most capable, why would you buy anything less? Politics, of course. I just hope most of these countries do in fact buy the most cost effective, capable aircraft for their crews. And by all accounts, that's the F-35. If Lockheed has in fact turned out an 80 or 90 millions $ bird that can carry a 5,000lb warload at mach 1.6, pull 9g's, take that a lot farther than any legacy bird, is the best sensor/shooter out there, can fly at AOA of 50 degrees, super-cruise, jam like a Growler, quarterback like an AWACS AND has an invisibility switch - they deserve the business!!!
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