Gripen News

Military aircraft - Post cold war aircraft, including for example B-2, Gripen, F-18E/F Super Hornet, Rafale, and Typhoon.
  • Author
  • Message
Offline
User avatar

XanderCrews

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 5891
  • Joined: 16 Oct 2012, 19:42

Unread post02 Mar 2019, 04:35

energo wrote:The Gripen NG program started in 2005. Though it's certain that the program has had (and still has) its share of technical challenges (the media is not told) the delays, if you want to call it that, has probably more to do with lack of customers (Dutch, Norwegians, Swiss) and the desire to align procurement (Brazil, Swiss - formerly) with the main operator (Swedish AF) to reduce cost. Recall, that until about 2013 the Swedes were pretty much undecided on their own Gripen future.



Look I'm fine with that. I don't mind the Gripen NG -- its the fanboys. Even one doesn't want to count technical delays (and yes there have indeed been technical delays) the many questions and issues over its sales have caused delays as well, so I think its completely absurd to have some in here attempting victory laps and cheap shot based on falsehoods that its "on time. On budget" that's an utter joke.

:roll:

Ive literally had Gripen Fan boys tell me that its never been delayed because they only did any development work on it when another country was buying it. So its had years where it was never being developed and designed? Really? On The Other Hand I've had Gripen Fans tell me that Saab only doubles down when there is a sales set back, developing it even harder when a sale goes sideways or doesn't happen :roll: :roll: In the F-35 vs Gripen NG thread we literally had pages and pages of Gripen fanboys that couldn't come to an agreement on when its actual timeline and when the program was started, in development, etc etc. Utter ridiculousness


So I take umbrage at the apparent lack of memory and deeply concerning affinity for kool-aide chugging, at the expense of my own common sense and the fact that some of us have been watching the NG program since it was a snazzy CGI image in a magazine back in 2005.

Anyone who has been watching this program since 2005 has not seem an "on time, on budget" masterstroke. Its been chalk-a-block with drama and years long set backs, even a referendum, losses interrupted with occasional wins its been a helluva long and twisted road. it has not been a SWISS watch. It parallels the F-35 far more than its fans would like to admit, while being far less ambitious. if you've been watching as long as I have, one would have to be on crack to say its been "on time" and "on budget" as we just start serial production in 2019

its great that some have fallen for the propaganda but I refuse to, and I won't play along with the delusion and infinite hairsplitting
Choose Crews
Offline

pron

Active Member

Active Member

  • Posts: 102
  • Joined: 21 Jul 2014, 19:28

Unread post02 Mar 2019, 10:09

energo wrote:
pron wrote:[And you don't think the F-35 have the same 360 capability? Read some more about the AN/ASQ-239.
https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/ ... re-Systems


Wasn't aware that the AN/ASQ-239 had 360 degree jamming, but I could be wrong?

https://www.baesystems.com/en/download- ... 878736.pdf

* Simultaneous jamming without interfering with radar and radar warning receiver

It came out wrong. The F-35 have 360 EW apertures, bus as you say not 360 jamming as far as we know.
But do we know all what the upgraded AN/ASQ-239 can do?
Offline

loke

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 756
  • Joined: 14 Nov 2008, 19:07

Unread post02 Mar 2019, 10:52

The first of 36 Brazilian Gripen NG multirole jets (also known as the F-39 E/F Gripen in the Brazilian Air Force) is in final assembly at the Saab facility in Linköping, the company told Jane’s on 28 February.

The single-seat flight test instrumentation (FTI) aircraft will be delivered to start the flight test campaign in Linköping during 2019. The aircraft is currently undergoing installation of the avionics, auxiliary power unit, engine, radar, canards, canopy, and windshield.

The Commander of the Brazilian Air Force, Lieutenant-Brigadier Antonio Carlos Moretti Bermudez, was briefed on the FX-2 programme by Håkan Buskhe, president and CEO of Saab, on 26 February.


https://www.janes.com/article/86960/a$$ ... g-advances
Offline

mixelflick

Elite 3K

Elite 3K

  • Posts: 3205
  • Joined: 20 Mar 2010, 10:26
  • Location: Parts Unknown
  • Warnings: 1

Unread post02 Mar 2019, 16:25

Outside looking in observations of the E program...

What's the selling point?

If it's cheap, it's not any longer. Brazil decided to buy Gripen E for $120M per craft, armaments and services, in 2014. That's $20 - 40 million more than than an F-35, depending upon variant.

How about the payload/range?

Appears to be better than Gripen C, but lacking especially in comparison to other Euro-Canards and certainly the F-35. Due to its small size, it would seem to be one or the other.

RCS?

Being a small fighter, it has one of the lower radar cross sections. Load it up though with 5,000lbs of weapons and two external tanks, and it's RCS is quite a bit larger.

E/W, Avionics?

They appear to be top shelf, and SAAB crows that they're so good, it will get first look/first shot. But against what? I would expect that vs. most Flankers, but assuming her missiles well, miss... Flankers will have many more missiles to shoot back with..

Weapons?

Certainly, getting the Meteor first was a big deal. I can see the small(er) RCS + Meteor + its avionics suite being formidable. It's air to ground capability appears to be the big sell though, getting in fast, hitting hard and egressing.

Kinematics?

Claims of being able to supercruise... but under what loadout? I would think perhaps with a light air to air load, which might be useful in running away or imparting greater momentum to AAM's when BVR shots are necessary

The NG/E has grown in weight, so I'm not sure as to its ability to gain/re-gain energy.

Overall?

It's no longer a good buy for nations that didn't have a robust budget. Its price range is right up there with more capable platforms like Typhoon, Rafale and considerably more expensive than the F-35 will be in just a few short years.

I'd be surprised to see many more nations pick it up. SAAB did a nice job given what they had to work with/budget, but its looking increasingly like the NG/E will be an export failure.

My 5 cents..
Offline

marsavian

Elite 1K

Elite 1K

  • Posts: 1169
  • Joined: 02 Feb 2018, 21:55

Unread post02 Mar 2019, 17:08

Is your Gripen price comparison comparable to a foreign sales F-35 in all its components ? So why buy a Gripen E ? Well a few reasons I can think of. Supposedly it's cheap to run. You get a 200 degree AESA. You get 360 degree jamming with GaN transmitters which should be powerful, sophisticated and currently not on offer by anyone else. You get an internal IRST. Meteor missiles. Good airframe with high instantaneous maneuverability. It's not 5th gen but the F-35 is not on sale to everyone and I can see those wanting a modern 4th gen fighter going for it.
Offline

loke

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 756
  • Joined: 14 Nov 2008, 19:07

Unread post02 Mar 2019, 17:52

marsavian wrote:Is your Gripen price comparison comparable to a foreign sales F-35 in all its components ? So why buy a Gripen E ? Well a few reasons I can think of. Supposedly it's cheap to run. You get a 200 degree AESA. You get 360 degree jamming with GaN transmitters which should be powerful, sophisticated and currently not on offer by anyone else. You get an internal IRST. Meteor missiles. Good airframe with high instantaneous maneuverability. It's not 5th gen but the F-35 is not on sale to everyone and I can see those wanting a modern 4th gen fighter going for it.

Indeed -- some countries either cannot or will not go for the F-35. If such a country still want a modern, Western a/c, then what are the options? SH, Typhoon, Rafale, "F-21" and -- Gripen. Only "F-21" and Gripen seem to be reasonably cost-effective. Rafale, Typhoon and SH are more capable, but also more expensive.


Gripen cannot compete with the F-35, but neither can the other 4.5 gen fighters... It's really about those countries that cannot get the F-35 during the next few years.

Perhaps some of the best options for Gripen can be in Latin America -- Brazil no doubt will work hard to assist in selling the Gripen to neighbour countries. Gripen may also have an opportunity in India No doubt the IAF would prefer Rafale however the Rafale is very expensive.


Countries where Gripen will not win, include Finland, Canada, and most likely Switzerland. I am guessing they all go for the F-35. If you can get the F-35, then you will.
Offline
User avatar

XanderCrews

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 5891
  • Joined: 16 Oct 2012, 19:42

Unread post02 Mar 2019, 19:55

loke wrote:
marsavian wrote:Is your Gripen price comparison comparable to a foreign sales F-35 in all its components ? So why buy a Gripen E ? Well a few reasons I can think of. Supposedly it's cheap to run. You get a 200 degree AESA. You get 360 degree jamming with GaN transmitters which should be powerful, sophisticated and currently not on offer by anyone else. You get an internal IRST. Meteor missiles. Good airframe with high instantaneous maneuverability. It's not 5th gen but the F-35 is not on sale to everyone and I can see those wanting a modern 4th gen fighter going for it.

Indeed -- some countries either cannot or will not go for the F-35. If such a country still want a modern, Western a/c, then what are the options? SH, Typhoon, Rafale, "F-21" and -- Gripen. Only "F-21" and Gripen seem to be reasonably cost-effective. Rafale, Typhoon and SH are more capable, but also more expensive.


When you post on F-16.net but forget that F-16s exist too :doh:

A Super Hornet is better value. I don't think Super Hornet is dramatically more expensive either, and in some cases Ive seen it cheaper than the Gripen E.
Choose Crews
Offline

basher54321

Elite 1K

Elite 1K

  • Posts: 1713
  • Joined: 02 Feb 2014, 15:43

Unread post02 Mar 2019, 20:35

Sorry Xander but since the last time you were here some genius relabelled the F-16 as the F-21 for India. Not seeing that label hanging around for much longer - could be wrong.
Offline

marsavian

Elite 1K

Elite 1K

  • Posts: 1169
  • Joined: 02 Feb 2018, 21:55

Unread post02 Mar 2019, 20:41

One could see the Indians going for Gripen now if they have managed to convince themselves F-16 are no good even though they keep shooting down their planes ;). Could share Meteors with their Rafales. Even Mig-35 is in with another shout now, its design has solidified and would be very cheap i.e. under $50-60m even if they decide on the AESA/TVC options. One thing for sure you can see why India cares so much about fighter strength with Pakistan/China border disputes.
Offline
User avatar

XanderCrews

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 5891
  • Joined: 16 Oct 2012, 19:42

Unread post03 Mar 2019, 03:58

basher54321 wrote:Sorry Xander but since the last time you were here some genius relabelled the F-16 as the F-21 for India. Not seeing that label hanging around for much longer - could be wrong.



Oh wow! Thank you and my apologies everyone. I assumed "F-21" was some paper project somewhere. :doh:
Choose Crews
Offline

loke

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 756
  • Joined: 14 Nov 2008, 19:07

Unread post03 Mar 2019, 10:25

XanderCrews wrote:
basher54321 wrote:Sorry Xander but since the last time you were here some genius relabelled the F-16 as the F-21 for India. Not seeing that label hanging around for much longer - could be wrong.



Oh wow! Thank you and my apologies everyone. I assumed "F-21" was some paper project somewhere. :doh:

apology accepted :D
Offline

mixelflick

Elite 3K

Elite 3K

  • Posts: 3205
  • Joined: 20 Mar 2010, 10:26
  • Location: Parts Unknown
  • Warnings: 1

Unread post03 Mar 2019, 15:12

Gripen being on time and on budget... Such reminds me of Scott Steiner's math.. Why this man isn't working at NASA is beyond me, but SAAB might want to consider hiring him to explain Super Gripen's progress..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msDuNZyYAIQ
Offline

loke

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 756
  • Joined: 14 Nov 2008, 19:07

Unread post15 Mar 2019, 16:41

Final assembly of four Gripen E in Sweden:

https://gripenblogs.com/Lists/Posts/Post.aspx?ID=2085
Offline

loke

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 756
  • Joined: 14 Nov 2008, 19:07

Unread post19 Mar 2019, 08:32

Saab has commenced ground qualification of a prototype low-band escort jamming pod being developed as part of its Arexis family of fast jet electronic warfare (EW) systems and plans to begin flight testing the prototype before the end of this year.
Announced in 2017, the Arexis family of electronic attack pods – comprising self-protection, escort jammer, and escort jammer-extended capability variants – leverages from technology already in development for the MFS-EW self-protection suite that equips Saab’s JAS 39 Gripen E fighter. These building blocks include ultra-wideband digital receivers and digital radio frequency memory devices (DRFMs), gallium nitride (GaN) solid state active electronically scanned array (AESA) transmitters, interferometric direction finding systems, and high-speed digital signal processing architectures.

Saab has already offered a podded Arexis self-protection jammer for export applications. According to Jonas Grönberg, Saab’s head of marketing, sales, and emerging products for Fighter EW, the escort jamming pod is intended to provide strike packages with an airborne electronic attack capability to defeat early warning radar.

“You need high-powered electronic attack to deny shared situational awareness and targeting data, and to negate data networks,” he told Jane’s . “The Arexis [escort] jammer pod has the capability to screen and so protect the approach and departure of entire strike formations against lower frequency radars by the smart utilisation of DRFM-based jamming techniques, such as smart noise, coherent false targets and various saturation techniques.”

The escort jammer pod design first shown by Saab in 2017 incorporates L-band and S-band GaN-based AESA antennas in the fore and aft sections of the main pod structure, with large VHF and UHF fin antennas mounted externally. “This version, weighing less than 350 kg, has been specifically designed for integration with single engine fighters in mind,” said Grönberg. “It is powered by the aircraft so there is no need for additional electrical generation capacity inside the pod.”

https://www.janes.com/article/87260/are ... ght-trials
Offline

zero-one

Elite 2K

Elite 2K

  • Posts: 2038
  • Joined: 23 Jul 2013, 16:19
  • Location: New Jersey

Unread post19 Mar 2019, 14:35

https://hushkit.net/2019/03/18/intervie ... pen-pilot/

Interview with a Gripen pilot

Tiny, smart and capable, the Swedish Gripen C is a bantamweight fighter aircraft with a big punch. The Gripen E now in development is a bigger aircraft, close in weight to the F-16. We spoke to SAAB test pilot Jonas Jakobsson about flying a machine that emphasises brains over brawn.

Gripen is a fascinating aircraft, lambasted by the Swiss air force evaluation and loved by its pilots and operators, it does things in a different way. Connectivity, situational awareness and other boring sounding concepts are prioritised over power and speed, resulting in a machine that is cheap to operate and capable of delivering nasty surprises to opponents that underestimate it. Though only around 250 Gripens have been built since production begun in 1987 it has earned Saab an excellent reputation as one of the few aircraft manufacturers that stay close to running timely projects on budget (a key reason for Boeing choosing to partner with Saab for its winning T-X trainer). But is its good reputation just another example of Sweden’s slickness in public relations? Over to Jonas Jakobsson.

Jonas Jakobsson (middle) with former Brazilian President Dilma Rousseff.
What is your name, rank, unit and hours on Gripen C?
“My name is Jonas Jakobsson and I’m a Major (ret.) and currently an experimental test pilot working at SAAB. I’ve flown well over 1000h in Gripen.”
Which other aircraft types have you flown?
“During air force training I flew Beagle Bulldog (SK61) and SAAB 105 (SK60). My first aircraft as an operational pilot was the strike fighter version of Viggen (AJ-37) which later was upgraded to AJS-37 indicating that it also had recce capability. I’ve also flown Lansen, Draken, and all the other versions of Viggen. During my career as a testpilot I have also flown a number of helicopters, fighters and trainers.”
What were you first impressions of the Gripen?
“That it was a true pilot’s aircraft. I really felt that handling the aircraft out to the very edge of the allowed envelope was made really easy by the flight control system. The way information was fused and presented was also very intuitive. This has been a hallmark of SAAB aircraft for a long time. I think much due to the fact that Swedish fighters traditionally are single seat. A good Human Machine Interface compensated for the second pilot…”

How would you rate the Gripen in the following categories:
A. Instantaneous Turn rates
B. Sustained turn rates
C. Acceleration
D. Climb rate
E. Range
“Without mentioning specific numbers since this would be classified I would like to expand the question a bit. We have built Gripen to achieve the highest possible operational effect in a number of scenarios defined by our customers. To do this we have to balance a number of factors such as platform performance, sensor performance, weapon performance, avionics, Human Machine Interface etc. The classic metaphor stating that a chain isn’t stronger than its weakest link is relevant for fighters as well! So the answer would be; platform performance is as good as or better than what is needed to reach the high overall operational effect demand of a future fighter.”
(Though Jonas avoids answering this question directly I would like to quote from this article “Gripen is a bit of an unknown quantity against modern air superiority machines because it takes a fundamentally different approach to survivability. Whilst in traditional DACT exercises, Typhoon pilots have often referred to the Gripen as ‘cannon-fodder’ due to its inferior thrust-to-weight ratio, speed, agility and armament, in the few cases where the Gripen has ‘come to play’ with its full electronic warfare capabilities, it has given Typhoons very nasty shocks. Against the Su-35S, Gripen would rely on the cutting edge EW capabilities which Saab builds the Gripen (especially the new E/F) around to hide the aircraft from the sensors of the Russian jets in much the same way as the Raptor relies on x-band stealth. These EW capabilities are so highly classified that there is simply no way to assess their effectiveness in the public domain. Having said that, RAF pilots who I have talked to with experience of the Saab fighter’s EW teeth first hand say that the ability of the aircraft to get alarmingly close without detection thanks entirely to EW is very impressive.” The answer that modern air combat has greater emphasis on fighting at a distance is not just an avoidant answer, but if the Gripen was a very energetic aircraft Saab would be keen to share this, as Eurofighter is with the Typhoon. It is however understood that Gripen has a particularly good instantaneous turn rate. )
What are the best and worst aspects of the Gripen?
“I personally thoroughly enjoy the incredibly well designed HMI which makes it possible for me as a pilot to process enormous amounts of information and really interpret the tactical relevance of this information. The worst aspect of Gripen to me personally is that we are building such a fantastic and futuristic system but it is all on the inside so to speak. This makes it all a bit abstract and difficult to explain the full potential of the aircraft.”
How would a Gripen do in the following against a Block 52 F-16?
A. WVR combat
B. BVR combat
C. Situational awareness
E. maintainability- cost of ownership?
“Generally we stay away from direct comparisons but if I were to compare Gripen to other fighters in general I would say that I have already touched on one of the subjects you ask about. Situational awareness in Gripen E is outstanding! All the way from the sensor suite (radar, IRST, missile approach warner, radar warner etc), the local fusion of sensor data in every Gripen, the global fusion of data shared within the tactical air unit (and C2) and via the HMI with the elaborate symbology and wide area display. This information chain and the situational awareness it creates is rally the foundation that all fighting rests on. With this said it comes as no surprise that I think that Gripen helps me as a pilot to perform really well in both BVR and WVR.

The Swedish defense traditionally relied heavily on conscript personnel for tasks such as aircraft line maintenance. The operational doctrine of the Swedish air force also included operating from dispersed bases, basically a runway in the forest with no workshops or hangars. These two facts have been part of our design-genome for many years now. The result is that Gripen is very easy to maintain and also very fast to turn around between sorties. Generally we say that time for turnaround between two air-to-air sorties is done in 10 minutes and that is including both refueling and rearming! Ease of maintenance i.e. few hours to fix a potential problem and long mean time between failure add up to a high availability and low cost of ownership.”
Just how good is the Meteor-armed Gripen at BVR combat? Has it a big enough radar to take full advantage?
“Absolutely! The radar is well balanced with the weapon reach. But the radar is far from the only source of information we use to get target data…”
(By this I understand he is referring to the other sensors and information data-linked to the aircraft from off-board sources.)
What is your most memorable mission?
“A number of sorties comes to mind, my first display with the SwAF display team, my very first solo sortie at the air force academy, QRA sorties during the cold war when the Baltic was buzzing with activity or when I got to bring my children up in a jet trainer. But if I had to pick one sortie I think it would be something very different. About 10 years ago I was assigned to 2 Squadron in the South African Air force. My mission was to train the first South African group of pilots on Gripen. After a successful training and 18 months in the country I was about to move back to Sweden. One final sortie remained. It was a night flight and the weather was fantastic with stars everywhere. I spent that hour and a half cruising among the stars and contemplating what a fantastic job I have. When heading back to home base the mission controller greeted me with a cheerful “welcome back to earth sir”. I think the combination of a beautiful scenario and the end of a great mission all added up and made it a very emotional sortie.”
What is the biggest myth about Gripen?

“Actually haven’t heard so much negative. Maybe people are too polite to tell me. But I think one might be that a lot of people have the conception that Gripen E only is a slight upgrade to Gripen C because of their similarities in appearance. Nothing could more wrong! It is a totally new aircraft, albeit based on the same general aerodynamic design as Gripen C.”
One Typhoon pilot described Gripen as ‘easy meat’, how would Gripen perform in BFM against the following types? Typhoon, Rafale, Hornet, MiG-29 and F-22.
“Again no direct comparison but as I said above, the one with the best information wins the fight. It’s been a fact since world war one and still is. The only difference is how the information is gathered. In the old days looking with your eyes, today and in the future sensors and fusion of sensor data. The classic BFM I would say is no more and if you try it you die. In a world of high of boresight missiles, such as IRIS-T, data-link cueing and helmet mounted displays the within visual range fight looks more and more like a mini-BVR fight.”

Never let it be said that Europeans don’t love a delta. Typhoons, Gripens and a lone Mirage 2000.
What should I have asked you?
“What’s the best thing about being a Gripen test pilot?
The possibility to influence the future design and functionality of Gripen. I think all fighter pilots can relate to this. During training and operational use of the aircraft every pilot formulates his/her ideas of how to improve the design and functionality and now I really get to this. It’s also a huge responsibility. It’s important that I can meet fellow pilots in the air force and feel that we met their demands and built the most pilot friendly and operationally efficient aircraft possible.”

The first Saab Gripen E for Brazil is in final assembly. Saab hopes to deliver the first test aircraft to Brazil this year, with operational aircraft following from 2021. Brazil should receive 36 Gripen E/Fs between 2019 and 2024. Image source: Saab
What equipment would you like to see integrated into Gripen?
“Weirdly enough I will answer more computer power and unlimited broad band data-links. I think this is the key to success in a future scenario. The things you can do with computational power and data sharing is astounding and we are a good way down that path with Gripen E but you always want more. Luckily some clever engineer foresaw this and designed the avionics to be basically plug and play with both new software and hardware!”

Thoughts on Gripen
Politics is the biggest decider in arms deals, so what are the political advantages of going Swedish? One may be that for some nations it is a less inflammatory move than purchasing from the US and Russia. But is the Gripen independent from the US? In the past the US has beat down potential rivals to its commercial dominance by refusing export licences (something it may have done in the 1990s with AMRAAM during the search for the next Finnish fighter). Though Gripen E will have European missiles (Meteor & IRIS-T) and radar — it has a US-licensed engine and will probably use US guided munitions (Paveway and JDAM) as well as a US or Israeli targeting pod. Also despite Saab’s streamline, unbloated, approach to manufacturing – can spare parts for an aircraft produced in tiny numbers in an expensive country be cheap?
Gripen E is likely to be far cheaper to operate than the F-35 and is likely to be the only aircraft offering comparable levels of situational awareness in the near term. This is a big plus, and this is combined with the already operational long range air-to-air Meteor missile. If Saab can keep the Gripen E price down, and a suitable political climate prevails, it should find more customers, even in a massively over-saturated market[/code]
[/quote]
PreviousNext

Return to Modern Military Aircraft

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 11 guests