F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 18 Jun 2017, 23:16
by zerion
U.S. warplane downs Syrian army jet in southern Raqqa province

AMMAN/WASHINGTON, June 18 (Reuters) - A U.S. warplane shot down a Syrian army jet on Sunday in the southern Raqqa countryside with Washington saying the jet had dropped bombs near U.S. backed forces and Damascus saying the plane was downed while flying a mission against Islamic State militants.

A Syrian army statement released on Syrian state television said the plane crashed and the pilot was missing. It said the incident took place on Sunday afternoon near a village called Rasafah...

Later the U.S. Central Command issued a statement saying the Syrian plane was downed "in collective self-defense of Coalition-partnered forces," identified as fighters of the Syrian
Democratic Forces (SDF) near Tabqah.

It said that "pro-Syrian regime forces" had earlier attacked an SDF held town south of Tabqa and wounded a number of fighters and driving them from the town.

Coalition aircraft in a show of force stopped the initial advance. When a Syrian army SU-22 jet later dropped bombs near the U.S. backed forces, it was immediately shot by a U.S. F/A-18E Super Hornet, the statement said.

Before it downed the plane, the coalition had "contacted the its Russian counterparts by telephone via an established "de-confliction line" to de-escalate the situation and stop the firing."

The coalition does "not seek to fight the Syrian regime, Russian or pro-regime forces" but would not "hesitate to defend itself or its "partnered forces from any threat," the statement said.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/us- ... id=SL5GDHP

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 18 Jun 2017, 23:44
by popcorn
So... what if it had been a Russkie jet?

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2017, 02:10
by ChippyHo
It was a Russian jet - SU22- FLOWN by a Syrian AF pilot 8)

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2017, 02:26
by sferrin
popcorn wrote:So... what if it had been a Russkie jet?


Well, when Turkey did it they got offered S-400s for sale so it might be worth it. :wink:

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2017, 04:03
by durahawk
Is this the first air to air kill for the Superbug?

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2017, 07:17
by geforcerfx
durahawk wrote:Is this the first air to air kill for the Superbug?

yes

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2017, 13:19
by mixelflick
Would love to know if it was an AMRAAM, 9x etc? Also would love to know if this bird was configured for air to ground or was flying a CAP/otherwise configured for air to air..

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2017, 15:13
by neptune
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/06/19 ... hreat.html

US shoot-down of Syrian jet prompts Russian threat

Published June 19, 2017
Fox News

Russian officials on Monday threatened that their country would treat U.S.-led coalition planes in some parts of Syria as targets after the U.S. military shot down a Syrian Air Force jet on Sunday. Russia's defense ministry said planes flying in Syria, west of the Euphrates River, would be considered targets. The news came one day after the first time in history a U.S. jet shot down a Syrian plane – and the first time in nearly 20 years the U.S. has shot down any warplane in air-to-air combat.

The last time a U.S. jet had shot down another country’s aircraft came over Kosovo in 1999 when a U.S. Air Force F-15 Eagle shot down a Serbian MiG-29. On Sunday, it was a U.S. F-18 Super Hornet that shot down a Syrian SU-22 after that jet dropped bombs near U.S. partner forces taking on ISIS.

Russia's defense ministry also said Monday it was suspending coordination with the U.S. in Syria over so-called "de-confliction zones" after the downing of the Syrian jet.

The United States and Russia, which has been providing air cover for Syria's President Bashar Assad since 2015 in his offensive against ISIS, have a standing agreement that should prevent in-the-air incidents involving U.S. and Russian jets engaged in operations over Syria. The Russian defense ministry said it viewed the incident as Washington's “deliberate failure to make good on its commitments” under the de-confliction deal.'

Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov, in comments to Russian news agencies, compared the downing to “helping the terrorists that the U.S. is fighting against.” “What is this, if not an act of aggression,” he asked. Meanwhile, the U.S.-backed opposition fighters said Assad's forces have been attacking their positions in the northern province of Raqqa and warned that if such attacks continue, the fighters will take action.
:)

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2017, 17:37
by neptune
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 97101.html

Russia to treat US jets in Syria as 'targets' after America guns down first regime warplane

Tom Batchelor |
@_tombatchelor

Communication channel between Washington and Moscow to be suspended immediately
A Syrian jet was shot down by US forces on Sunday. Russia has said it will treat US warplanes operating in parts of Syria where its air forces are also present as "targets" amid a diplomatic row caused by the downing of a Syrian jet. The country's defense ministry said it would track US-led coalition aircraft with missile systems and military aircraft, but stopped short of saying it would shoot them down.

A hotline set up between Russia and the US to prevent mid-air collisions will also be suspended. "All kinds of airborne vehicles, including aircraft and UAVs of the international coalition detected to the west of the Euphrates River will be tracked by the Russian SAM systems as air targets," the Russian Defence Ministry said in a statement. The warning followed after a US F-18 Super Hornet shot down a Syrian army SU-22 jet on Sunday in the countryside southwest of Raqqa - the first such downing of a Syrian jet by the US since the start of the country's civil war in 2011. Washington said the jet had dropped bombs near US-backed forces but Damascus said the plane was downed while flying a mission against Isis militants.

Russia's Defense Ministry said the suspension of its communication line with the Americans would begin immediately. The US did not use its hotline with Russia ahead of the downing of the Syrian government warplane, said the ministry, which accused the US of a "deliberate failure to make good on its commitments" under the de-confliction deal. "The shooting down of a Syrian Air Force jet in Syria’s airspace is a cynical violation of Syria’s sovereignty," the ministry said. "The US’ repeated combat operations under the guise of ‘combating terrorism’ against the legitimate armed forces of a UN member-country are a flagrant violation of international law and an actual military aggression against the Syrian Arab Republic." Theresa May appealed to Russia to continue the use of "deconfliction" measures over the skies of Syria to reduce the risk of misunderstandings in what is a crowded airspace.

Russia, which has been providing air cover for Syria's President, Bashar al-Assad, since 2015, has an agreement with the US aimed at preventing incidents involving either country's warplanes engaged in operations in Syria. Downing the jet was akin to "helping the terrorists that the US is fighting against”, Sergei Ryabkov, Russia's Deputy Foreign Minister, said. A statement released by US Central Command on Sunday said the Syrian jet was "immediately shot down... in accordance with rules of engagement and in collective self-defense of Coalition partnered forces". “The Coalition's mission is to defeat Isis in Iraq and Syria. The Coalition does not seek to fight Syrian regime, Russian, or pro-regime forces partnered with them, but will not hesitate to defend Coalition or partner forces from any threat," it added. “The Coalition presence in Syria addresses the imminent threat Isis in Syria poses globally. The demonstrated hostile intent and actions of pro-regime forces toward Coalition and partner forces in Syria conducting legitimate counter-ISIS operations will not be tolerated.”
:)

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2017, 18:14
by neptune
Carrier Strike Group Two (21Jan17)

The George H.W. Bush Carrier Strike Group consists of the flagship USS George H.W. Bush (CVN 77) with embarked staffs of CSG-2, Carrier Air Wing (CVW) 8 and Destroyer Squadron (DESRON) 22, and the squadrons of CVW-8; guided-missile cruisers USS Philippine Sea (CG 58) and USS Hue City (CG 66); and DESRON 22 guided-missile destroyers USS Laboon (DDG 58) and USS Truxtun (DDG 103).

CAW8-

VFA-31 Strike Fighter Squadron 31 - Tomcatters - F/A-18E Super Hornet
VFA-87 Strike Fighter Squadron 87 - Golden Warriors - F/A-18E Super Hornet
VFA-213 Strike Fighter Squadron 213 - Black Lions - F/A-18F Super Hornet
VFA-37 Strike Fighter Squadron 37 - Bulls - F/A-18C Hornet
VAW-124 Carrier Airborne Early Warning Squadron 124 - Bear Aces - E-2C Hawkeye

In March 2017, various media outlets reported that conventional forces from the 11th MEU (Marines) and the 75th Ranger Regiment (Army) deployed to Syria to support US-backed forces in liberating Raqqa from ISIS occupation.
:)

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2017, 18:39
by geforcerfx
Hmm that sounds like Russia is trying to enforce a no fly zone, guess we will see if they have the sand to actually enforce it.

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2017, 18:46
by PhillyGuy
Interesting over reaction from someone who instigated the bluff we called by shooting down their Syrian lackey provocateur.

Euphraties boundary is way too far east/constricting for the US to limit itself to or comply with Russia's dictate.

Interesting that they're highlighting the SAMs and do not mention their fighters in Syria. Sounds to me they are building themselves a way out. And it's doubtful their coastal missile batteries can cover or engage everything west of the Euphraties unless they move their SAMs further east.

In any case, they can't target what they can't see or engage. And besides, that attitude goes both ways, we can also treat any fire control lock on originating from a Russian emitter as an imminent threat as well. Two can play this game.

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2017, 18:56
by SpudmanWP
Well... The F-35Bs in Japan are headed out on the Wasp soon... :roll:

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2017, 19:29
by neptune
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/06/19 ... hreat.html


US responds to Russian threat after shoot-down of Syrian jet


Published June 19, 2017


Capt. Jeff Davis speaks to reporters. U.S. pilots operating over Syria won't hesitate to defend themselves from Russian threats, a Pentagon spokesperson said Monday in the latest escalation between the two superpowers since a U.S. jet shot down a Syrian aircraft on Sunday. "We do not seek conflict with any party in Syria other than ISIS, but we will not hesitate to defend ourselves or our partners if threatened," Capt. Jeff Davis told Fox News.

Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Gen. Joseph Dunford doubled down on that rhetoric during a Monday speech at the National Press Club. "I'm confident that we are still communicating between our operations center and the Russia federation operations center -- and I'm also confident that our forces have the capability to take care of themselves," Dunford said.

Department of Defense spokesperson Maj. Adrian J.T. Rankine-Galloway said coalition aircraft would continue conducting "operations throughout Syria, targeting ISIS forces and providing air support for Coalition partner forces on the ground." "As a result of recent encounters involving pro-Syrian Regime and Russian forces, we have taken prudent measures to re-position aircraft over Syria so as to continue targeting ISIS forces while ensuring the safety of our aircrew given known threats in the battlespace," Rankine-Galloway said in a statement. Earlier Monday, Russian officials threatened to treat U.S.-led coalition planes flying in Syria, west of the Euphrates River, would be considered targets. The news came one day after the first time in history a U.S. jet shot down a Syrian plane – and the first time in nearly 20 years the U.S. has shot down any warplane in air-to-air combat. The last time a U.S. jet had shot down another country’s aircraft came over Kosovo in 1999 when a U.S. Air Force F-15 Eagle shot down a Serbian MiG-29. On Sunday, it was a U.S. F-18 Super Hornet that shot down a Syrian SU-22 after that jet dropped bombs near U.S. partner forces taking on ISIS.

Russia's defense ministry also said Monday it was suspending coordination with the U.S. in Syria over so-called "de-confliction zones" after the downing of the Syrian jet. The United States and Russia, which has been providing air cover for Syria's President Bashar Assad since 2015 in his offensive against ISIS, have a standing agreement that should prevent in-the-air incidents involving U.S. and Russian jets engaged in operations over Syria. The Russian defense ministry said it viewed the incident as Washington's “deliberate failure to make good on its commitments” under the de-confliction deal.' Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov, in comments to Russian news agencies, compared the downing to “helping the terrorists that the U.S. is fighting against.” “What is this, if not an act of aggression,” he asked.

Meanwhile, the U.S.-backed opposition fighters said Assad's forces have been attacking their positions in the northern province of Raqqa and warned that if such attacks continue, the fighters will take action. "Would just tell you that we'll work diplomatically and militarily in the coming hours to establish deconfliction," Dunford said.
:)

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2017, 21:23
by MD
PhillyGuy wrote:
In any case, they can't target what they can't see or engage. And besides, that attitude goes both ways, we can also treat any fire control lock on originating from a Russian emitter as an imminent threat as well. Two can play this game.



“Any aircraft, including planes and drones of the international coalition, detected in the operation areas west of the Euphrates River by the Russian air forces will be followed by Russian ground-based air defense and air defense aircraft as air targets,” according to a Russian Defense Ministry statement.

I'm sure the statement is deliberately vague for a reason. Notice it doesn't say "....will be shot down", only "...will be followed". I'm thinking that they have no desire to escalate anymore than the US has any desire to.

But this shootdown does raise the question of what is the US endgame in Syria? By shooting down a Syrian government aircraft or attacking their positions (unless they are attacking us), are we not doing ISISs job for them, as an ad hoc ISIS air force....essentially part-time ISIS allies? While Iran makes missile attacks on ISIS targets in Syria?

Fred Thompson's famous line from The Hunt for Red October comes to mind...

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2017, 22:20
by durahawk
SpudmanWP wrote:Well... The F-35Bs in Japan are headed out on the Wasp soon... :roll:

Such a senseless provocation by the American imperialist pigs should not good un-matched!
Send the Admiral Kuznetsov back to the med!
Image

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2017, 22:26
by juretrn
durahawk wrote:Send the Admiral Kuznetsov back to the med!

Russians reverted to using smoke signals?

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2017, 22:31
by sprstdlyscottsmn
MD wrote:Fred Thompson's famous line from The Hunt for Red October comes to mind...

The one about Ruskies and plans?

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2017, 23:53
by MD
sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:
MD wrote:Fred Thompson's famous line from The Hunt for Red October comes to mind...

The one about Ruskies and plans?


"This business will get out of control......"

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2017, 00:35
by botsing
MD wrote:But this shootdown does raise the question of what is the US endgame in Syria? By shooting down a Syrian government aircraft or attacking their positions (unless they are attacking us), are we not doing ISISs job for them, as an ad hoc ISIS air force....essentially part-time ISIS allies? While Iran makes missile attacks on ISIS targets in Syria?

ISIS is only one of the parties in the Syrian cluster-f... and in that regard ISIS is also fighting the parties that are fighting the Syrian government. Combine that with ISIS supplying oil to the Syrian regime* and you might understand why the US has little issue with shooting down a Syrian government aircraft, especially if they are bombing US backed troops.

* https://www.wsj.com/articles/islamic-st ... 1484835563

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2017, 00:53
by popcorn
deleted

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2017, 00:55
by popcorn

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2017, 03:49
by MD
botsing wrote:ISIS is only one of the parties in the Syrian cluster-f... and in that regard ISIS is also fighting the parties that are fighting the Syrian government. Combine that with ISIS supplying oil to the Syrian regime* and you might understand why the US has little issue with shooting down a Syrian government aircraft, especially if they are bombing US backed troops.

* https://www.wsj.com/articles/islamic-st ... 1484835563


Clusterf.... is definitely what this pile of quiksand over there is indeed.

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2017, 06:31
by huggy
So a 4.5 generation fighter shoots down a highly maneuverable, stealthy, 37 year old Fitter. Must have been an epic fight.

I suppose the pilot already has orders to TOP GUN. Time to buy a super bike and brush up on volleyball skills.

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2017, 07:16
by zaltys
Well, kill is a kill!

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2017, 08:30
by geforcerfx
huggy wrote:So a 4.5 generation fighter shoots down a highly maneuverable, stealthy, 37 year old Fitter. Must have been an epic fight.

I suppose the pilot already has orders to TOP GUN. Time to buy a super bike and brush up on volleyball skills.


Well what do you want us to do sell everyone more advance aircraft so there is more sport to it? Not our fault everyone else isn't lining up to buy the new super amazing Russian and Chinese jets.

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2017, 14:53
by mixelflick
durahawk wrote:
SpudmanWP wrote:Well... The F-35Bs in Japan are headed out on the Wasp soon... :roll:

Such a senseless provocation by the American imperialist pigs should not good un-matched!
Send the Admiral Kuznetsov back to the med!
Image


Look at it this way: They can't do any worse than their last Syrian cruise, can they?

Lightly loaded Flankers and Mig-29's (and a small number at that) vs. 3 squadrons of Super Hornets and all their supporting aircraft. Don't forget the F-15C's and especially F-22's in the area. Seems to me to be an ideal environment for the F-35: SAM rich, plus enemy fighters to avoid/slip by.

Of course, they probably won't risk it. But wouldn't it be nice to see an F-15 finally wax a Flanker, as in an SU-30SM or SU-35 at that? We know the F-22 is certainly capable of it. I do NOT see the Russians backing down, only escalating as time goes by. I suppose they're really going to find out if their Super Duper Flanker is all they claim..

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2017, 15:26
by sferrin
mixelflick wrote: I do NOT see the Russians backing down, only escalating as time goes by.


That wasn't even a Russian plane that got shot down. When Turkey shot down a RUSSIAN Su-24 people thought Armageddon was upon us. And now Russia is trying to sell Turkey S-400s.

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2017, 15:42
by gc
More air to air practice for US military. Seems like the syria conflict is evolving from a CAS/ISR operation to a full spectrum air warfare with air to air engagements, enemy double digit SAMs, interdiction strikes, CAS and CSAR standby. A real world Red Flag. Good to see air to air kill chains being executed in real ops.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/06/20 ... syria.html

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2017, 17:04
by durahawk
sferrin wrote:
mixelflick wrote: I do NOT see the Russians backing down, only escalating as time goes by.


That wasn't even a Russian plane that got shot down. When Turkey shot down a RUSSIAN Su-24 people thought Armageddon was upon us. And now Russia is trying to sell Turkey S-400s.


There was a lot of mud slinging after the cruise missile strike on the Syrian airfield as well. They bluster because that's all they really have.

They know an actual air war over Syria would end quickly, and not in their favor.

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2017, 17:50
by juretrn
You know what they say -
a barking dog doesn't bite.
And it seems the Russians plan to bark themselves to death.

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2017, 22:54
by zero-one
Not sure how Credible the information here is:
https://theaviationgeekclub.com/breakin ... nd-answer/
In fact it seems that the Su-22 kill was scored by an F/A-18E Super Hornet from VFA-87 Golden Warriors that apparently fired two missiles: one AIM-9X Sidewinder from a range of just 0.6 miles which missed the Sukhoi; and then an AIM-120 AMRAAM which shot down the Su-22.


If this is true then theres a bit of stuff here.
1. It was a phonebooth fight
2. The 9X actually missed
3. The AMRAAM can dogfight

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 21 Jun 2017, 00:07
by neurotech
zero-one wrote:Not sure how Credible the information here is:
https://theaviationgeekclub.com/breakin ... nd-answer/
In fact it seems that the Su-22 kill was scored by an F/A-18E Super Hornet from VFA-87 Golden Warriors that apparently fired two missiles: one AIM-9X Sidewinder from a range of just 0.6 miles which missed the Sukhoi; and then an AIM-120 AMRAAM which shot down the Su-22.


If this is true then theres a bit of stuff here.
1. It was a phonebooth fight
2. The 9X actually missed
3. The AMRAAM can dogfight

The Pk for an AIM-9X depends on several factors, including the relative position of the two jets. If it was a head-on shot, the Su-22 might have been able to see and and avoid the missile, maybe countering with flares. Another possibility is that the Su-22 bled off significant energy while avoiding the 9X, and then got hit by the AMRAAM, even at longer range than 0.6 miles.

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 21 Jun 2017, 00:17
by arian
MD wrote:ut this shootdown does raise the question of what is the US endgame in Syria? By shooting down a Syrian government aircraft or attacking their positions (unless they are attacking us), are we not doing ISISs job for them, as an ad hoc ISIS air force....essentially part-time ISIS allies? While Iran makes missile attacks on ISIS targets in Syria?


Just stop. Stop.

Assad is attacking SDF forces, who are fighting against ISIS. In the same place where there are plenty of US special forces and regular forces. And you say we are "doing ISIS's work"? WTF is Assad doing attacking SDF while they are encircling ISIS in Raqqa? Who's job is he doing?

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 21 Jun 2017, 00:21
by arian
neurotech wrote:
zero-one wrote:Not sure how Credible the information here is:
https://theaviationgeekclub.com/breakin ... nd-answer/
In fact it seems that the Su-22 kill was scored by an F/A-18E Super Hornet from VFA-87 Golden Warriors that apparently fired two missiles: one AIM-9X Sidewinder from a range of just 0.6 miles which missed the Sukhoi; and then an AIM-120 AMRAAM which shot down the Su-22.


If this is true then theres a bit of stuff here.
1. It was a phonebooth fight
2. The 9X actually missed
3. The AMRAAM can dogfight

The Pk for an AIM-9X depends on several factors, including the relative position of the two jets. If it was a head-on shot, the Su-22 might have been able to see and and avoid the missile, maybe countering with flares. Another possibility is that the Su-22 bled off significant energy while avoiding the 9X, and then got hit by the AMRAAM, even at longer range than 0.6 miles.


The information comes from a CBS reporter. There's no other confirmation from other sources as far as I know. So take that for what it's worth. Then it gets repeated as truth on the internet.

Just because the planes were within 1 mile of each other it doesn't mean there was a "dogfight". The SH approached it head on first to warn it, and probably (or certainly as within the ROE) also contacted the pilot to warn him and tailed him until the release of weapons from the Su-22. Doesn't mean there was any dogfight or evading on the part of the Su-22 or maneuvering on the part of the SH. We don't know any of that.

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 21 Jun 2017, 00:37
by popcorn
Oz is being cautious, for now, until things settle down.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/06/a ... 09807.html

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 21 Jun 2017, 00:44
by arian
PhillyGuy wrote:Euphraties boundary is way too far east/constricting for the US to limit itself to or comply with Russia's dictate.

Interesting that they're highlighting the SAMs and do not mention their fighters in Syria. Sounds to me they are building themselves a way out. And it's doubtful their coastal missile batteries can cover or engage everything west of the Euphraties unless they move their SAMs further east.


When they say west of Euphrates they're probably talking about the Aleppo area, where US planes strike AQ positions. So, I guess Russia is now acting as Al Qaeda's air force 8)

Their SAMs certainly can't see very far into Syria from their positions given the mountain range blocking their view. Although they do claim to have moved an S-300 battery somewhere east of Aleppo. But there's no confirmation of that, and they have claimed to have moved that poor S-300 battery about 3 different places so far in Syria. So it may not be there at all.

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 21 Jun 2017, 00:56
by popcorn
It's in the Baltic but Russians are pissed.
http://edition.cnn.com/2017/06/20/polit ... index.html

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 21 Jun 2017, 01:25
by MD
arian wrote:
MD wrote:
Just stop. Stop.

Assad is attacking SDF forces, who are fighting against ISIS. In the same place where there are plenty of US special forces and regular forces. And you say we are "doing ISIS's work"? WTF is Assad doing attacking SDF while they are encircling ISIS in Raqqa? Who's job is he doing?


You're confusing perceptions vs reality.

The whole thing is a cluster over there, with a number of groups fighting one another, that we are only going to get further bogged down in if we aren't careful. Go over and see for yourself if you like. Things aren't as easy and clear as you would like to think they are, and getting mired in one's civil war is not something that often goes well.

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 21 Jun 2017, 01:45
by arian
MD wrote:
arian wrote:Things aren't as easy and clear as you would like to think they are, and getting mired in one's civil war is not something that often goes well.


Too late for that, and that's a different issue then what you said originally. What you said originally is outright false.

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 21 Jun 2017, 01:50
by MD
arian wrote:
MD wrote:
arian wrote:Things aren't as easy and clear as you would like to think they are, and getting mired in one's civil war is not something that often goes well.


Too late for that, and that's a different issue then what you said originally. What you said originally is outright false.


You missed "perception vs reality", so no, the perception isnt false depending on who wants to play it, since both Assad and the SDF are fighting ISIS.......for now. When ISIS get cleaned out, wait for the new mess to begin.

Its not too late to avoid that.



,

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 21 Jun 2017, 01:59
by arian
MD wrote:You missed "perception vs reality", so no, the perception isnt false


So in other words, my made-up reality is the right one because I chose to believe it. Ok, have a good day sir.

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 21 Jun 2017, 02:09
by MD
arian wrote:
MD wrote:You missed "perception vs reality", so no, the perception isnt false


So in other words, my made-up reality is the right one because I chose to believe it. Ok, have a good day sir.


Made up how? A perception of what others choose to believe or not doesnt make it correct or incorrect.

And who knows, Assad, bastard though he may be, may just become an ally again for all we know. Like in Desert Storm, when the Syrian forces were rolling past us to liberate Kuwait City, as Syria was an ally of ours. And that was just 8 years after we'd been bombing Syrian positions in Lebanon and they shot down 2 of our jets, with one pilot KIA and the NFO as a POW.

History can be an interesting beast. Especially with many competing interests in play.

Good day to you too.

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 21 Jun 2017, 05:13
by arian
I said good day, sir!

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 21 Jun 2017, 05:41
by MD
arian wrote:I said good day, sir!


Great movie! :)


Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 21 Jun 2017, 13:55
by zero-one
arian wrote:Just because the planes were within 1 mile of each other it doesn't mean there was a "dogfight".

True, but on the Flip side, this also doesn't mean that there was no dogfight. 2 shots were fired with 1 missing. the question rises why did one mis? If the 9X can't hit a close range non maneuvering target then thats a very serious problem.

arian wrote:Doesn't mean there was any dogfight or evading on the part of the Su-22 or maneuvering on the part of the SH..

We have absolutely no way of dismissing the possibility of a dogfight.

If this story is true and if you're correct that no maneuvering was involved then that means the 9X can't hit a very close range target despite the fact that no maneuvering was done.

Or maybe the new multi-spectral flares or other IR contermeasures in use by the Syrian Airforce is extremely effective against the 9X.

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 21 Jun 2017, 14:02
by firebase99
We can speculate all day why the heater missed. Dud? Pilot nerves? Decoys? Id be willing to bet it was two out of those three options.

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 21 Jun 2017, 14:08
by botsing
zero-one wrote:We have absolutely no way of dismissing the possibility of a dogfight.

If this story is true and if you're correct that no maneuvering was involved then that means the 9X can't hit a very close range target despite the fact that no maneuvering was done.

Or maybe the new multi-spectral flares or other IR contermeasures in use by the Syrian Airforce is extremely effective against the 9X.

As long as there is no confirmation from other (reliable) sources it makes little sense to speculate about any AIM-9X failure or even any AIM-9X use at all.

Lets wait until we know more before we dive into deep speculations that are bound to cause confusion in the future.

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 22 Jun 2017, 00:40
by arian
zero-one wrote:
arian wrote:Just because the planes were within 1 mile of each other it doesn't mean there was a "dogfight".

True, but on the Flip side, this also doesn't mean that there was no dogfight. 2 shots were fired with 1 missing. the question rises why did one mis? If the 9X can't hit a close range non maneuvering target then thats a very serious problem.

arian wrote:Doesn't mean there was any dogfight or evading on the part of the Su-22 or maneuvering on the part of the SH..

We have absolutely no way of dismissing the possibility of a dogfight.

If this story is true and if you're correct that no maneuvering was involved then that means the 9X can't hit a very close range target despite the fact that no maneuvering was done.

Or maybe the new multi-spectral flares or other IR contermeasures in use by the Syrian Airforce is extremely effective against the 9X.


They were within half a mile distance. We don't really know the actual distances or speeds of course, so it's all conjecture.

But it's not unreasonable to assume AIM-9X minimum range may be a factor. It's probably between 300-500m, and depending on speed and other factors involved, it may simply have been on the edge of the engagement envelope.

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 22 Jun 2017, 04:05
by smsgtmac
Can we please wait to find out what actually happened from a credible source? I'd have to suffer from Gell Man Amnesia effect to take anything from that website without independent corroboration. And good grief, even if the Sidewinder-then AMRAAM story is true, there are probably just as many reasons why it could have been by design than there are for it being unintentional/indication of something went wrong. And then even if something went wrong, it would still only be a data point.

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 22 Jun 2017, 08:29
by loke
According to CNN it was not an AIM-9X but 9M; and it missed because the Su-22 fired off some flares. Distance was "half a mile":

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/06/21/polit ... index.html

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 22 Jun 2017, 09:47
by popcorn
Looks like a -9X to me...

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 22 Jun 2017, 09:48
by hornetfinn
loke wrote:According to CNN it was not an AIM-9X but 9M; and it missed because the Su-22 fired off some flares. Distance was "half a mile":


That would make sense as AIM-9M like all other non-imaging missiles are much more susceptible to flares than imaging missiles like AIM-9X. Of course it seems like AIM-120 is perfectly capable of very short range shots in real world conditions, just like advertised.

Generally we can't make any conclusions about certain missile effectiveness or capabilities based on one isolated incident. There are myriad of reasons why missiles miss. There can be malfunction in seeker or guidance unit or control surfaces. IR missiles can be decoyed by flares or sun or some other form of heat in right direction. Even sunlight reflecting from water or clouds can do that in right conditions. Then the fuze can fail or the warhead can fail to detonate because of malfunction or some mistake made during manufacturing or maintenance. Even pilot can make a mistake during the engagement.

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 22 Jun 2017, 11:07
by hornetfinn
popcorn wrote:Looks like a -9X to me...


That looks like AIM-9X, but so what?

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 22 Jun 2017, 11:16
by popcorn
hornetfinn wrote:
popcorn wrote:Looks like a -9X to me...


That looks like AIM-9X, but so what?

I thought it more likely it was a -9X that was fired. Where is the reference to a -9M in the news report?
PS.. assuming that video is not just stock footage.

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 22 Jun 2017, 11:30
by loke
popcorn wrote:
hornetfinn wrote:
popcorn wrote:Looks like a -9X to me...


That looks like AIM-9X, but so what?

I thought it more likely it was a -9X that was fired. Where is the reference to a -9M in the news report?
PS.. assuming that video is not just stock footage.


Strange -- I am quite sure it said "AIM-9M", however now it just says "AIM-9". Did I misread? Or did they update the text?

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 22 Jun 2017, 11:53
by hornetfinn
popcorn wrote:
hornetfinn wrote:
popcorn wrote:Looks like a -9X to me...


That looks like AIM-9X, but so what?

I thought it more likely it was a -9X that was fired. Where is the reference to a -9M in the news report?
PS.. assuming that video is not just stock footage.


I think it's very likely that the video is stock footage. All reports (including US Navy website) say that the shooter was E-model, but the one in video and picture is clearly F-model.

I definitely agree that AIM-9X was possibly used, but also AIM-9M is still in service AFAIK and might well be carried instead or with AIM-9X. Maybe they carry AIM-9M for lesser targets and AIM-120 against more capable ones? I can see why -9M would be carried instead of -9X. It's at the end of life cycle and there are likely a lot of them around to carry routinely.

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 22 Jun 2017, 13:35
by MD
loke wrote:
Strange -- I am quite sure it said "AIM-9M", however now it just says "AIM-9". Did I misread? Or did they update the text?


They updated their fake news. :D

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 23 Jun 2017, 00:26
by arian
Keep in mind that the missile with the best kill record in the world, AIM-120, only has about a 50% kill ratio (or a little higher). So missiles miss quite often even in the best of circumstances.

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 23 Jun 2017, 00:28
by popcorn
They're missiles, after all. :D

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 23 Jun 2017, 00:37
by arian
Reportedly, this is the actual airplane involved. Photo is about 2 years old, however.
Image

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File ... 4150315135).jpg

VFA-87. This squadron has had AIM-9X since at least 2006, but as the photo above shows not all of them carry AIM-9X all the time. The photo above may be from a training mission (it's taken at their home base in Virginia, so maybe they don't carry AIM-9X in training flights).

Another interesting thing is that in almost all the photos of SHs operating in the ME, I only see 1 AIM-9 missile carried. No AIM-120s carried either. Maybe they have changed that in recent times, but can anyone find a picture of an SH in the recent Iraq/Syria conflict that carries more than 1 AIM-9?

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 23 Jun 2017, 00:45
by popcorn
VFA-87 Golden Warriors.

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 23 Jun 2017, 00:51
by arian
This seems to be the typical load-out of almost every SH I've ever seen pictures of in Syria: 1 AIM-9X and that's it for air-to-air.
Image

PS: I stand corrected. Here is 304 in Syria with 2 AIM-9X
Image

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 23 Jun 2017, 02:04
by smsgtmac
:bang: THIS is why I hate idle speculation with insufficient facts:
http://www.news.com.au/technology/syria ... d20aeb5085
You KNOW the POS bottom-feeder who wrote this clickbait didn't think about this all on his own.

IF CNN got the story and quote right (and that's a mighty big IF) there's still no info on what version of the AIM 9 it was, no info on did the pilot have tone or no-tone, no info on was the shot taken to scare the target (for at least three possible good reasons off the top of my head) as a continued escalation 'reported' to have happened before the F-18 put an AMRAAM in him, no info on.....any effin' thing as to what to make of what was reported.

And now we have a 'journalist' making stories up about a singular F-18 FCS/unknown missile combination performance event as somehow being relevant to the entire future F-35/AIM-9X (or h*ll, an ASRAAM) combination.
Standby for the F-35 H8ers to start mirroring or echoing this pap in 3...2...1...

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 23 Jun 2017, 02:19
by popcorn

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 23 Jun 2017, 02:41
by huggy
I got to watch the videos today. Pretty interesting.

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 23 Jun 2017, 04:14
by arian
smsgtmac wrote::bang: THIS is why I hate idle speculation with insufficient facts:
http://www.news.com.au/technology/syria ... d20aeb5085
You KNOW the POS bottom-feeder who wrote this clickbait didn't think about this all on his own.

IF CNN got the story and quote right (and that's a mighty big IF) there's still no info on what version of the AIM 9 it was, no info on did the pilot have tone or no-tone, no info on was the shot taken to scare the target (for at least three possible good reasons off the top of my head) as a continued escalation 'reported' to have happened before the F-18 put an AMRAAM in him, no info on.....any effin' thing as to what to make of what was reported.

And now we have a 'journalist' making stories up about a singular F-18 FCS/unknown missile combination performance event as somehow being relevant to the entire future F-35/AIM-9X (or h*ll, an ASRAAM) combination.
Standby for the F-35 H8ers to start mirroring or echoing this pap in 3...2...1...


Don't worry so much about it. No reason to get upset at an article that 3 people in total will read.

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 23 Jun 2017, 13:50
by zero-one
It will be a very long time before we get any specifics on what happened and even then the "official story" may have a few twist in it already.

For now, we can agree that all publications about this story have a few common factors.
A Rhino engaged a Su-22 Fitter within 1 mile. 2 missiles were used, an Aim-9 and an Aim-120, the Aim-9 missed the Aim-120 didn't.

The Way I see it, we can keep making baseless excuses for why the Aim-9 missed (faulty hardware, it was just a warning shot, maybe it was an older M model, he had no tone, missile was not armed, etc etc.)

or

we can see that every single pilot is trained to deal with such a circumstance.

In today's network centric battlefield chances of getting to a Merge are slim, and even if you do get to a merge, the existence of advanced HOBS capable missiles will make dog fighting suicidal.
BUT
even if you do get to a merge, even if the wiz bang "game changing missiles" fail, these pilots still know exactly what to do to get the job done.

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 23 Jun 2017, 13:56
by zero-one
Official statement by the Russians:
https://theaviationist.com/tag/su-22-fitter/
Statement of the Russian Defence Ministry concerning downing of the Syrian Su-22 near the town of Resafa

On June 18, 2017 the American fighter F-18A belonging to the international coalition shot down the Su-22 aircraft of the Syrian Air Force, which was performing a combat mission supporting the government troops, which were conducting the offensive against the ISIS terrorists near the town of Resafa (40 km to the south-west of the city of Raqqa).

As a result of the attack, the Syrian aircraft was destroyed. The pilot baled out over an ISIS-controlled area, his status is unknown.

The destruction of the aircraft of the Syrian Air Force by the American aviation in the air space of Syria – is a cynical violation of the sovereignty of the Syrian Arab Republic.

Numerous combat activities of the US aviation carried out under the cover of “fight against terrorism” aimed against the legitimate Armed Forces of a UN-member is a blatant breach of the international law and is in fact an act of military aggression against the Syrian Arab Republic.

Moreover, at that time the aircraft of the Russian Aerospace Forces were also performing combat missions in the air space of Syria. However, the Command of the coalition forces did not use the existing channels of communication between the Command of the Al Udeid Air Base (Qatar) and the Hmeymim Air Base Command to prevent air incidents in the air space of Syria.

The Russian party considers those actions of the US Command as an intentional failure to fulfill its obligations within the Memorandum on prevention of incidents and providing of flight security during the operations in Syria dated October 20, 2015.

Since June 19, 2017, the Russian Defence Ministry has stopped the cooperation with the American party within the Memorandum on prevention of incidents and providing of flight security during the operations in Syria and demands a thorough investigation of the incident by the US Command with further providing of information on its results and the taken measures.

In the combat mission zones of the Russian aviation in the air space of Syria, all kinds of airborne vehicles, including aircraft and UAVs of the international coalition detected to the west of the Euphrates River will be tracked by the Russian SAM systems as air targets.


funny how the USN still uses F-18A models :bang: :bang: :bang:

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 23 Jun 2017, 16:58
by smsgtmac
arian wrote:Don't worry so much about it. No reason to get upset at an article that 3 people in total will read.


I know how this works. Today's clickbait is tomorrow's disinformation cascade. Checked for "F-35 news" earlier today and the,story was a Top 10 due to the wonders of 'Googlebias' it would have been Top 5 except for the other fake news. Skightky more tha three people will glom onto this.
Pretty bad when CNN has the most accurate, least fake headline.
2 outta 3 fake news headlines.jpg

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 23 Jun 2017, 17:21
by juretrn
Mac, no need to get upset...
Anyone with a quarter of a functioning brain knows the sample size of 1 missile shot is completely irrelevant to extrapolating hit rates.

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 23 Jun 2017, 20:24
by smsgtmac
juretrn wrote:Mac, no need to get upset...
Anyone with a quarter of a functioning brain knows the sample size of 1 missile shot is completely irrelevant to extrapolating hit rates.

True about tge functioning brain, unfortunately there is a legion of losers out there making lifr irritating for everyone else in every area. I'm hardly 'upset'. I am however extremely tired of the negative narrative, knowing how it feeds the villanous faux militaty reform operators. And those guys are just the subset of the libtardian fringe who feel their moment in history is slipping away. :D

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 24 Jun 2017, 08:57
by PhillyGuy
How are aircraft from the Bush getting into Syria and so far inland all the way to Raqqa. The most likely flight path would be over Israel and Jordan for a number of reasons, least of which is the Russian presence in Western Syria. Can anyone confirm or add to this? Very impressive that Hornets and Super Hornets have the combat range to fly 350+ miles inland, remain on station/bomb/patrol, and then return back to the carrier. Yes I understand there is tanker support, but still the combat duration/endurance of both aircraft and pilots is impressive, as is the planning and execution. I worry though if there is not a Kilo-class boat shadowing the Bush in the Eastern MED, just in case the US and Russia get into a shooting situation. Submarines really do remain the number 1 threat to carriers, despite all that they bring to bear.

The air ops in Syria really highlight the incredible capability that will come to the carrier fleet with the fielding of LO aircraft like the F-35B and C, and eventually the drone tankers. Unless you're right on top of it, in the future, once the air-wing is airborne off the deck, it is essentially invisible and with very long legs. The enemy will not know where and when it will be hit.

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 24 Jun 2017, 09:20
by neptune
PhillyGuy wrote:.... Kilo-class boat shadowing the Bush in the Eastern MED, just in case the US and Russia get into a shooting situation. Submarines really do remain the number 1 threat to carriers, despite all that they bring to bear.....


...first off, I'm not "picking on you!", my time of the "night".....

.....and "if" a Kilo "got stupid" do you think their "Virgin" shadow would let them get further than opening their "doors"???,...before they become "lost" to operational issues????....
:)

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 24 Jun 2017, 13:30
by snypa777
zero-one wrote:It will be a very long time before we get any specifics on what happened and even then the "official story" may have a few twist in it already.

For now, we can agree that all publications about this story have a few common factors.
A Rhino engaged a Su-22 Fitter within 1 mile. 2 missiles were used, an Aim-9 and an Aim-120, the Aim-9 missed the Aim-120 didn't.

The Way I see it, we can keep making baseless excuses for why the Aim-9 missed (faulty hardware, it was just a warning shot, maybe it was an older M model, he had no tone, missile was not armed, etc etc.)

or

we can see that every single pilot is trained to deal with such a circumstance.

In today's network centric battlefield chances of getting to a Merge are slim, and even if you do get to a merge, the existence of advanced HOBS capable missiles will make dog fighting suicidal.
BUT
even if you do get to a merge, even if the wiz bang "game changing missiles" fail, these pilots still know exactly what to do to get the job done.


Cant help thinking, does this mean there`s a wrecked 9 X carcass sitting in a field in Syria for the Russians to pick the bones from?
Another article I saw today suggested the Fitter deployed flares, also, the 9P sidewinder could reject American flares but liked Russian flares according to some.

Lastly, apparently yet another SU-22 tried another bombing run on Tuesday in close proximity to US friendly forces but thought better of it after Hornets nearby persuaded him to go home.

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 24 Jun 2017, 13:57
by snypa777
"A US official told CNN that another Syrian Su-22 fighter made an approach in what the military assessed as a possible bombing run on US backed-Syrian Democratic Forces near Tabqa, Syria, on Tuesday. The official said that coalition aircraft made a show of force and conducted a warning maneuver, and the Syrian fighter jet then aborted its trajectory and left the area".

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/06/21/polit ... index.html

I guess making good on defensive promises sometimes works.

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 24 Jun 2017, 16:06
by hythelday
How about we stop perpetrating that "AIM-9X was shot at Su-22 and missed"?

We don't know IF it was shot. We don't know IF it was -9X that was shot. We don't know IF it was intended to hit Su-22. We don't kniw IF it missed.

Until there's at least a second source to that claim, all we know that a Fitter was brought down. Even the reports regarding pilots fate are conflicting.

When the second/official source emerges, we'll know that IIR and HOBS tech is not, indeed, invincible.

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 24 Jun 2017, 22:05
by arian
hythelday wrote:Until there's at least a second source to that claim.


What do you mean a second source? There are hundreds of sources. One CBS reporter tweeted it, then another reporter cited that, and another cited that and so forth. Sounds like lots of sources to me.

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 24 Jun 2017, 22:13
by botsing
arian wrote:
hythelday wrote:Until there's at least a second source to that claim.


What do you mean a second source? There are hundreds of sources. One CBS reporter tweeted it, then another reporter cited that, and another cited that and so forth. Sounds like lots of sources to me.

It's exactly that reason why I added the word (reliable) to my post. It is scary how fast mere speculation can end up as "factual news" on so many sites.

smsgtmac sentiment in this is fully understandable and supported by me.

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 24 Jun 2017, 23:05
by juretrn
That's often the case with lazy reporters; don't bother fact-checking, just hit the magic retweet button. Boom, report done.
Kind of reminds me how Solomon (yes, he again) reposted a "story" from Fars that Israelis sent a squadron of fightersm a couple of EW planes and a couple of tankers to Saudi Arabia or some sh*t. Fact check much?
Speaking of the devil, just went to check what he posted on this, and yep. He jumped the "-9X is sh*t " train as well.

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 25 Jun 2017, 17:17
by XanderCrews
juretrn wrote:That's often the case with lazy reporters; don't bother fact-checking, just hit the magic retweet button. Boom, report done.
Kind of reminds me how Solomon (yes, he again) reposted a "story" from Fars that Israelis sent a squadron of fightersm a couple of EW planes and a couple of tankers to Saudi Arabia or some sh*t. Fact check much?
Speaking of the devil, just went to check what he posted on this, and yep. He jumped the "-9X is sh*t " train as well.



That's funny since the F-35 is terrible since it doesn't have 9X internal

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 26 Jun 2017, 04:57
by zero-one
More details on the event.

The new details they gathered were quite good but note the conclusion made by the Writer was nothing short of a disaster.

THE shooting down of a Syrian fighter jet may have exposed a fatal flaw with Australia’s next generation aircraft, the F-35 Lightning II stealth fighter.
Details have begun to emerge about Sunday’s incident, which saw two US Navy F/A-18E Super Hornets engage a Syrian Su-22 fighter in the skies near the Islamic State capital of Raqqa.
It was the first time a US combat jet has shot down a manned aircraft since 1999.
But things did not go to plan.

The F-35 Strike Fighter: Flight or fail?
According to the marketing and lobbying of manufacturers, modern US air-to-air missiles have a claimed ‘kill’ ratio of almost 100 per cent.
But one of the missiles fired at the Cold War veteran missed.
An F/A-18E Super Hornet launching from the flight deck of an aircraft carrier. Two US Navy aircraft shot down a Syrian regime plane on June 18, 2017, after it dropped bombs on US-backed forces fighting the Islamic State. Picture: US Navy
An F/A-18E Super Hornet launching from the flight deck of an aircraft carrier. Two US Navy aircraft shot down a Syrian regime plane on June 18, 2017, after it dropped bombs on US-backed forces fighting the Islamic State.

FALLING ARROWS
The shoot-down followed attacks on US-backed Syrian Democratic Forces by Syrian Government troops using tanks and artillery.
Syrian regime forces began to advance after its jets bombed US-backed forces which were themselves moving on Islamic State positions near Tabqa, a town south of the Islamic State stronghold of Raqqa..

This engagement prompted Coalition commanders to activate a ‘hotline’ with Russian forces in Syria, established to avoid just such incidents.

But the forces loyal to Russian-backed President Assad continued to advance.
So US commanders ordered Coalition aircraft to fire warning shots near the Syrian Government forces.
This halted the Syrian regime ground vehicles. But not its aircraft.
“They saw the Su-22 approaching,” Pentagon spokesman Captain Jeff Davis told reporters.
“It again had dirty wings; it was carrying ordnance. They did everything they could to try to warn it away. They did a headbutt manoeuvre, they launched flares ….”

This reveals the US aircraft went to great pains to warn the armed Syrian aircraft away, flying just ahead of it to buffet it in the turbulence of their own wakes and firing flares to highlight the gravity of the situation.
“But ultimately the Su-22 went into a dive and it was observed dropping munitions and was subsequently shot down,” the spokesman said.

But it wasn’t quite that simple.
The US F/A-18E fired a heat-seeking AIM-9 Sidewinder missile at the Su-22. But the 40-year-old Syrian jet was able to dodge, dropping flares and jinking out of its flight path.
The US fighter then had to fall back some 2km before firing a medium range, radar-guided AIM-120 missile. This successfully struck the target, and the Syrian pilot ejected over Islamic State held territory.

Australia's first F-35s made their public debut at the Avalon Air Show. The two Joint Strike Fighters are currently based at Luke Air Force Base in the United States, but were flown to Australia for the first time by Royal Australian Air Force.

LIGHTNING WITHOUT THUNDER
The F-35A Strike Fighter carries no more than four air-to-air missiles in its internal bays. Less if it has to add air-to-ground weapons to that mix.
While the Lightning II can carry a much more extensive payload — including air-to-air missiles — under its wings, it does so at a significant cost.
It loses its stealth ability.
Without that ability to hide in the skies, its relatively poorer manoeuvrability, acceleration and speed puts it at a disadvantage to most modern Russian and Chinese fighter aircraft designs.
Which is why the F-35’s concept relies upon all air-to-air combat being conducted ‘beyond visual range’, where it is not required to manoeuvre. But long-range missile attacks are generally regarded as having less chance of success than those at close range.

And the F-35’s less than outstanding manoeuvrability also means it has less ability to ‘dodge’ in the final moments of an attacking missile’s approach.
A 2008 study by the RAND Corporation showed that, even assuming a 50 per cent offensive missile success rate and a 100 per cent successful defensive missile evasion rate, F-35 Strike Fighters would run out of missiles long before they ran out of targets.
F-35 proponents argued this warning was not relevant, as missile success rates were close to 100 per cent. Given Sunday’s performance, perhaps they were being optimistic.


This is the reason why I hated the response of most F-35 supporters when it was allegedly defeated by an F-16. Now the F-35 still suffers from the "can't turn, can't climb, can't run" narrative. It'll be years before that dies.

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 26 Jun 2017, 06:26
by arian
BS article from the get go. Nobody claimed a 100% kill ratio for any missile. Certainly no one ever claimed so for AIM-9.

And if F-35 is in trouble because its AIM-120 missile has only an over 50% kill ratio in actual combat, I can only imagine how screwed Russian planes are with their 4% kill ratio R-27s in actual combat.

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 26 Jun 2017, 12:25
by botsing
arian wrote:BS article from the get go. Nobody claimed a 100% kill ratio for any missile. Certainly no one ever claimed so for AIM-9.

And if F-35 is in trouble because its AIM-120 missile has only an over 50% kill ratio in actual combat, I can only imagine how screwed Russian planes are with their 4% kill ratio R-27s in actual combat.

Very interesting!

Do you have a source (or sources) where I can lookup those pK stats?

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 26 Jun 2017, 15:04
by pron
botsing wrote:
arian wrote:BS article from the get go. Nobody claimed a 100% kill ratio for any missile. Certainly no one ever claimed so for AIM-9.

And if F-35 is in trouble because its AIM-120 missile has only an over 50% kill ratio in actual combat, I can only imagine how screwed Russian planes are with their 4% kill ratio R-27s in actual combat.

Very interesting!

Do you have a source (or sources) where I can lookup those pK stats?

The R-27 stats are from the wiki page I guess.
In the 1999 Eritrean-Ethiopian War, Eritrean MiG-29s fought Ethiopian Su-27s both piloted by Russian mercenaries.
There were possibly as many as 24 R-27s fired by both sides.
Only one R-27 fired by an Ethiopian Su-27 at an Eritrean MiG-29 proximity-fuzed near enough
the MiG that the damaged aircraft eventually crashed on landing, giving the R-27 a hit ratio of only 4%.

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 26 Jun 2017, 15:56
by hythelday
pron wrote:
botsing wrote:
arian wrote:BS article from the get go. Nobody claimed a 100% kill ratio for any missile. Certainly no one ever claimed so for AIM-9.

And if F-35 is in trouble because its AIM-120 missile has only an over 50% kill ratio in actual combat, I can only imagine how screwed Russian planes are with their 4% kill ratio R-27s in actual combat.

Very interesting!

Do you have a source (or sources) where I can lookup those pK stats?

The R-27 stats are from the wiki page I guess.
In the 1999 Eritrean-Ethiopian War, Eritrean MiG-29s fought Ethiopian Su-27s both piloted by Russian mercenaries.
There were possibly as many as 24 R-27s fired by both sides.
Only one R-27 fired by an Ethiopian Su-27 at an Eritrean MiG-29 proximity-fuzed near enough
the MiG that the damaged aircraft eventually crashed on landing, giving the R-27 a hit ratio of only 4%.


There's a ton of articles on the Internet (including russian sources) that contradict each other, regarding how many missiles were fired, the nationalities of pilots on both sides (including the staple russian-ukranian mutual accusations), number of aircraft, origin of the aircraft etc.. virtually every aspect of the story can be debated, and conveniently none offer sources (save for one russian book regarding weapons exports).

Only these things are certain:
Eritrea AF operated Fulcrums, allegedly 4x MiG-29 and 2x MiG-29UB (which makes sense since most sources agree they bought straight from MiG)
Ethiopia AF operated Su-27, allegedly 6x Su-27SK and 2x Su-27UB (which does not make sense, since most sources say Ethiopians bought from unused Russian stock, however SK version is export modification, why would a plane intended for VVS be downgraded export version is beyond me).
R-27 were fired by both sides (models uncertain, I've seen R/T/ER mentioned), none apparently found their target.
One Fulcrum was confirmed to be shot down, either by R-73 or gun.

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 26 Jun 2017, 17:58
by citanon
Surely this is evidencve that the Russian EW tech was just too good. /Sarcasm

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 26 Jun 2017, 22:02
by arian
citanon wrote:Surely this is evidencve that the Russian EW tech was just too good. /Sarcasm


LOL. Excellent point, comrade.

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 26 Jun 2017, 22:30
by basher54321
1998 - Ethiopia signed a USD150 million contract with Rosovoorouzhenie for 6 x single seat Su-27 & 2 x Su-27UB with 100 x R-27R and R-27T + smaller numbers of R-73 & R-60 from Russian AF stocks.

http://www.harpia-publishing.com/?q=nod ... iew=detail

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 27 Jun 2017, 12:01
by boilermaker
XanderCrews wrote:
juretrn wrote:That's often the case with lazy reporters; don't bother fact-checking, just hit the magic retweet button. Boom, report done.
Kind of reminds me how Solomon (yes, he again) reposted a "story" from Fars that Israelis sent a squadron of fightersm a couple of EW planes and a couple of tankers to Saudi Arabia or some sh*t. Fact check much?
Speaking of the devil, just went to check what he posted on this, and yep. He jumped the "-9X is sh*t " train as well.



That's funny since the F-35 is terrible since it doesn't have 9X internal


I thought the F35 was the only one with full 9X cueing capability internal or external. Block II has lock on after launch capability.

Does the Super Hornet really carry the 9X? The F22 just barely got wired to carry it but not yet cueing capable. In any case it cannot use its full cueing capabilities. Again, talking about BlockII, which is quite different than Block I in terms of aiming.

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 27 Jun 2017, 12:52
by hornetfinn
boilermaker wrote:
XanderCrews wrote:
juretrn wrote:That's often the case with lazy reporters; don't bother fact-checking, just hit the magic retweet button. Boom, report done.
Kind of reminds me how Solomon (yes, he again) reposted a "story" from Fars that Israelis sent a squadron of fightersm a couple of EW planes and a couple of tankers to Saudi Arabia or some sh*t. Fact check much?
Speaking of the devil, just went to check what he posted on this, and yep. He jumped the "-9X is sh*t " train as well.



That's funny since the F-35 is terrible since it doesn't have 9X internal


I thought the F35 was the only one with full 9X cueing capability internal or external. Block II has lock on after launch capability.

Does the Super Hornet really carry the 9X? The F22 just barely got wired to carry it but not yet cueing capable. In any case it cannot use its full cueing capabilities. Again, talking about BlockII, which is quite different than Block I in terms of aiming.


F-35 will not get internal AIM-9X or ASRAAM but will carry these externally (at least for now). It seems like the disadvantages of carrying them externally are not very big compared to costs and time needed for developing them for internal carriage.

F-22 got AIM-9X capability later than other jets as it was mighty effective even without them and other platforms needed it more urgently. Super Hornets and even classic Hornets have carried -9X for years now.

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 27 Jun 2017, 23:29
by arian
SHs have carried AIM-9X for about 10 years now, at least.

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 28 Jun 2017, 02:28
by edpop

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 28 Jun 2017, 03:33
by hythelday
Always nice to read an article that doesn't have an author listed, let alone sources.

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 28 Jun 2017, 04:10
by citanon
hythelday wrote:Always nice to read an article that doesn't have an author listed, let alone sources.


I love how the internet has sped up news cycle speed so much reporting has now evolved into guessing and outright making sh*t up.

These guys have no idea is an AIM-9 of some sort was used, if used whether that's a 9X, if the 9X under what circumstances the pilot shot the 9X and why. Yet, here are all and sundry rushing to make pronouncements, this one quoting the "great Bill Sweetman". REALLY???

Let's say it was an AIM-9X. For all we know the pilot could have shot it way outside optimal parameters to scare the Su-22 off its attack run. Or the missile had a fault. Or someone forgot to set the right setting, or... a bazillion different things. :bang:

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 28 Jun 2017, 06:08
by tincansailor
mixelflick wrote:Would love to know if it was an AMRAAM, 9x etc? Also would love to know if this bird was configured for air to ground or was flying a CAP/otherwise configured for air to air..


I read one news account that stated they fired a Sidewinder which missed. The SH dropped back about 2 K and fired an AMRAAM which hit the target.

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 28 Jun 2017, 06:31
by tincansailor
MD wrote:
PhillyGuy wrote:
In any case, they can't target what they can't see or engage. And besides, that attitude goes both ways, we can also treat any fire control lock on originating from a Russian emitter as an imminent threat as well. Two can play this game.



Any aircraft, including planes and drones of the international coalition, detected in the operation areas west of the Euphrates River by the Russian air forces will be followed by Russian ground-based air defense and air defense aircraft as air targets,” according to a Russian Defense Ministry statement.

I'm sure the statement is deliberately vague for a reason. Notice it doesn't say "....will be shot down", only "...will be followed". I'm thinking that they have no desire to escalate anymore than the US has any desire to.

But this shootdown does raise the question of what is the US endgame in Syria? By shooting down a Syrian government aircraft or attacking their positions (unless they are attacking us), are we not doing ISISs job for them, as an ad hoc ISIS air force....essentially part-time ISIS allies? While Iran makes missile attacks on ISIS targets in Syria?

Fred Thompson's famous line from The Hunt for Red October comes to mind...



I don't think you are understanding the real situation. The Syrian government forces are not making a major effort against ISIS, they were bombing the U.S. allied troops who are fighting ISIS. The regime is hoping they can pick up the pieces when ISIS loses it's capital. The regime calls all the groups fighting them terrorists. In effect it's the Syrian AF that is acting as ISIS AF. They want the ISIS war to continue, because when ISIS is defeated all factions will join the fight against Assad.

Even with Russian, and Iranian help Assad is running out of men. He needs to make a deal very soon to partition the country. Russia is too economically weak to sustain this war indefinitely, and Iran's war effort is very unpopular at home, and Hezbollah's isn't popular in Lebanon. Syrian desperately needs peace. The U.S. needs a coherent policy to bring this awful war to an end.

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 30 Jun 2017, 22:10
by MD
tincansailor wrote:
I don't think you are understanding the real situation. The Syrian government forces are not making a major effort against ISIS, they were bombing the U.S. allied troops who are fighting ISIS. The regime is hoping they can pick up the pieces when ISIS loses it's capital. The regime calls all the groups fighting them terrorists. In effect it's the Syrian AF that is acting as ISIS AF. They want the ISIS war to continue, because when ISIS is defeated all factions will join the fight against Assad.

Even with Russian, and Iranian help Assad is running out of men. He needs to make a deal very soon to partition the country. Russia is too economically weak to sustain this war indefinitely, and Iran's war effort is very unpopular at home, and Hezbollah's isn't popular in Lebanon. Syrian desperately needs peace. The U.S. needs a coherent policy to bring this awful war to an end.


I'm understanding the situation fine, in that, it's a complete mess over there, what with competing interests of many different players at stake, as well as competing problems. Assad is indeed doing whatever he needs to in order to maintain his power, and if it takes piecemeal attacks against ISIS or against other factions to do so, it would make sense that he is. Desperate measures for him and all. And it likely is just a matter of time for him. Iran, while the situation may lack some domestic popularity, they do realize they need to keep someone they know as one of the very few allies west of the Gulf that they have. How much Russia will continue to be able to sustain that, will be anyone's guess. Time will tell what the jumbles mess of this moves to, but its too early yet to tell any end state. Indeed the US needs some kind of policy, the question is what will we come up with.

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 31 Jul 2017, 22:00
by loke
Asked if it was a straight Sidewinder shoot down, Tremel admitted it took 2 missiles. The infrared guided AIM-9X Sidewinder short range air-to-air missile missed, apparently lured away by decoy flares from the SU-22.


Read more: http://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/up-clos ... perations/

So it seems it was a 9X after all?

Of course a sample size of 1 makes it impossible to draw any conclusions -- however if the next 9 AIM-9X missiles all score hits then the Pk will be 90%... if not, it will be less.

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 01 Aug 2017, 00:59
by trpilot6
loke wrote:
Asked if it was a straight Sidewinder shoot down, Tremel admitted it took 2 missiles. The infrared guided AIM-9X Sidewinder short range air-to-air missile missed, apparently lured away by decoy flares from the SU-22.


Read more: http://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/up-clos ... perations/

So it seems it was a 9X after all?

Of course a sample size of 1 makes it impossible to draw any conclusions -- however if the next 9 AIM-9X missiles all score hits then the Pk will be 90%... if not, it will be less.



What were the missiles the Turkish F-16's used to down the Russian SU-24 in 2015 and the Syrian Mig-23 in 2014?? I could have swore I heard they were both downed by the AIM-9X. I'm sure in both cases the pilots deployed flares, yet the missiles still hit. If that's the case then the AIM-9X could be batting over 66%.

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 01 Aug 2017, 02:58
by smsgtmac
loke wrote:
Asked if it was a straight Sidewinder shoot down, Tremel admitted it took 2 missiles. The infrared guided AIM-9X Sidewinder short range air-to-air missile missed, apparently lured away by decoy flares from the SU-22.


Read more: http://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/up-clos ... perations/

So it seems it was a 9X after all?

Of course a sample size of 1 makes it impossible to draw any conclusions -- however if the next 9 AIM-9X missiles all score hits then the Pk will be 90%... if not, it will be less.

Given what was written, everyone should be careful NOT to leap to conclusions, and smack down such leaping wherever it will happen lest we continue the disinformation cascade that has followed this 'shootdown'. There's quite a bit of info yet to be divulged from authoritative sources, and there's nothing in the article about the LTCDR stating it was an AIM-9X. Personally, I think it most likely (statistically) was, but that is still just my opinion at this time. To recap, this 'civilian'-run advocacy web page did not say the LTCDR said it was a -9X. The web page intimated the LTCDR told them it was an all-Sidewinder affair, and given -9Ms are still in the inventory and forward deployed, without explicit statements otherwise, I see the version as still being 'undefined' (and just not that important in the scheme of things).

But let's do what should be the unnecessary work from that point forward...
1. Whatever version it was, was the first missile launched inside it's optimum envelope or was it launched outside?
2. Was there a solid lock-on at time of launch?
3. Whether or not it was launched inside or outside the envelope, was the objective of the controllers (since the pilot was possibly/apparently not in the discussions on the AWACS etc.--depending upon credibility of reporting) more about getting the SU-22 to break off the attack by presenting it with a threat than they were about shooting it down? This is kind of a side issue, but one that could have influenced the initial set-up for the launch.
4. Was there a malfunction of the missile? Seems there's been a headlong rush to explain what is possibly the inexplicable by simply assuming the Su-22 countermeasures were all that effective.
5. And if the Su-22's CM was so effective on the first go, why not against the second missile? It could have been it was out of flares, but we the public don't really know.

NOW, we would get around to what SHOULD be the obvious, but to too many ...isn't.(not talking about anyone specific here)

IF we had all the answers to these question and more, AND we could definitely state that the first missile was a properly functioning weapon launched with solid lock-on inside its optimal launch envelope but the Su-22 CM worked well enough to break an AIM-9X lock and the second missile was also an AIM-9X, and it successfully engaged the Su-22, THEN we could say that under the given conditions of engagement on that day and that time, the AIM-9X had a SUCCESS RATE of 50%.

"Pk" is a statistical value given for a set of scenarios and is arrived at/derived through extensive test under quantifiable conditions and analysis of test data. As a side note, the set of scenarios are rarely experienced in the real world and more often than not because-- going back to the early days of guided missiles-- combat ops launch discipline (or lack thereof) works under the assumption that if one missile launch is good, two is better. Hopefully, with the age of the F-35 being able to snipe at targets out of nowhere and increased opportunities to take second shots out of nowhere as well, there will be changes in attitudes to go along with the changes in opportunities.

You are absolutely correct by stating:
Of course a sample size of 1 makes it impossible to draw any conclusions

And you could have stopped right there, letting it stand as a cliff for the innumerate to throw themselves off of. But even if the next '9 launches' were hits, or misses, it would still have zip to do with Pks, and the success rate of 'x in 10' missiles yesterday, today, tomorrow has no direct correlation to later success rates. Events may inform but not define the future. Assuming otherwise would be a definite form of "Gambler's Fallacy".

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 01 Aug 2017, 06:26
by arian
trpilot6 wrote:What were the missiles the Turkish F-16's used to down the Russian SU-24 in 2015 and the Syrian Mig-23 in 2014?? I could have swore I heard they were both downed by the AIM-9X. I'm sure in both cases the pilots deployed flares, yet the missiles still hit. If that's the case then the AIM-9X could be batting over 66%.


AIM-120, and it appears the Su-24 did not know it was being targeted

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 15 Sep 2017, 16:29
by hythelday
From Tailhook 2017:
https://livestream.com/wab/tailhook2017 ... /162478715

Pilots talk about said engagement, specifics about intercept @17:30. Confirms it was AIM-9X, says "I have no idea what happened to the missile" after it left the rail properly. Apparently video also exists, albeit not public.

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 16 Sep 2017, 21:51
by spazsinbad
Already posted on another thread and mentioned above the ORIGINAL Tailhook 2017 video however this video will become unavailable at some future point whilst these two videos (one only excerpt of shoot down) are 'originals' of that video. It seems to me that the Hornets released flares in front of the Su-22 as a warning several times - no flares from it though.

Su-22 Shoot Down 4 USN Pilots Explain TAILHOOK 2017 Excerpt (7 minutes0


Su-22 Shoot Down 4 USN Pilots Explain ALL at TAILHOOK 2017 (47 minutes)

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 17 Sep 2017, 02:31
by Dragon029
It would have been nice if during Q&A somebody asked if the Su-22 had been deploying flares - given that the Super Hornet had made multiple aggressive passes, I'm not sure if the Su-22 pilot would have known to deploy countermeasures at the time of the AIM-9X launch.

He might have initially in the climb (in the event that his targets had MANPADs, etc), but given the fact that he knew he was well outmatched in the air and still had the gall to drop those bombs, I figure that he thought the F/A-18E was only bluffing (maybe he didn't understand the severity of his situation / wasn't exactly told that there were US personnel on the ground [rather that there was just "friendly" / "allied" forces; or maybe "US forces" was misunderstood as US-backed forces, etc]). Or who knows, maybe the Su-22 pilot was under pressure to take out those targets and either was willing to eject, or thought he was enough of a hotshot to escape somehow.

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 17 Sep 2017, 05:36
by ruderamronbo
spazsinbad wrote:Already posted on another thread and mentioned above the ORIGINAL Tailhook 2017 video however this video will become unavailable at some future point whilst these two videos (one only excerpt of shoot down) are 'originals' of that video. It seems to me that the Hornets released flares in front of the Su-22 as a warning several times - no flares from it though.

Su-22 Shoot Down 4 USN Pilots Explain TAILHOOK 2017 Excerpt (7 minutes0


Su-22 Shoot Down 4 USN Pilots Explain ALL at TAILHOOK 2017 (47 minutes)


That video is a great view. For someone without some tactical, fighter, background though it's probably unintelligible because of the audience they were speaking to. The comment about returning with just 1 AIM-9X was interesting because almost every video I've seen of any Hornet launching during Inherent Resolve only had 1 loaded...

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 17 Sep 2017, 09:42
by spazsinbad
I agree the difficulty following the HOOK17 jargon used however if one watches at least the excerpt video again or twice you get the sense of what they are saying. Meanwhile I think it is clear that the multiple passes with flares was the Hornet and NOT the Su-22. I can see how someone listening to an earlier pilot story could have mistaken 'who fired the flares' or it is just more 'fake news/misinformation'. I'm not going to follow it up because I believe the pilot stories as I understand them anyway. They have video to back them up as well - reporters I read are really stoopid mostly or they have an agenda like the 'fake news' websites that promulgate bad fake news about US Military Aviation in particular - just their guesswork.

Much as I despise the ethics of Tidier RogerAway this account by him on his website seems to be an accurate rendition of the HOOK'17 pilot accounts: http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/14 ... themselves SOME more discussion here: viewtopic.php?f=22&t=53422&p=376440&hilit=rogoway#p376440

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 17 Sep 2017, 11:13
by Dragon029
Meanwhile I think it is clear that the multiple passes with flares was the Hornet and NOT the Su-22. I can see how someone listening to an earlier pilot story could have mistaken 'who fired the flares' or it is just more 'fake news/misinformation'.

I don't know if that was directed towards my previous comment, but if so, I know the Super Hornet pilots deployed flares to warn off the Syrian pilot, I'm just curious as to whether the Su-22 itself was deploying flares when Mob fired his AIM-9X at it, because if it didn't, that would increase the probability that the AIM-9X just had a random failure, not that it was 'defeated by special flare patterns', etc as suggested by some journalists.

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 17 Sep 2017, 11:24
by hythelday
Dragon029 wrote:
Meanwhile I think it is clear that the multiple passes with flares was the Hornet and NOT the Su-22. I can see how someone listening to an earlier pilot story could have mistaken 'who fired the flares' or it is just more 'fake news/misinformation'.

I don't know if that was directed towards my previous comment, but if so, I know the Super Hornet pilots deployed flares to warn off the Syrian pilot, I'm just curious as to whether the Su-22 itself was deploying flares when Mob fired his AIM-9X at it, because if it didn't, that would increase the probability that the AIM-9X just had a random failure, not that it was 'defeated by special flare patterns', etc as suggested by some journalists.



I too, wondered about that. Pilots described the engagement down to every detail, even mentioning which direction the wrecked plane pitched and what the parachute looked like, seems strange he would omit such important detail - unless - they were instructed not to expand on that. Nobody asked "why did it miss?" in the questions either, for the same reason I believe.

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 17 Sep 2017, 11:27
by spazsinbad
Dragon029 wrote:
Meanwhile I think it is clear that the multiple passes with flares was the Hornet and NOT the Su-22. I can see how someone listening to an earlier pilot story could have mistaken 'who fired the flares' or it is just more 'fake news/misinformation'.

I don't know if that was directed towards my previous comment, but if so, I know the Super Hornet pilots deployed flares to warn off the Syrian pilot, I'm just curious as to whether the Su-22 itself was deploying flares when Mob fired his AIM-9X at it, because if it didn't, that would increase the probability that the AIM-9X just had a random failure, not that it was 'defeated by special flare patterns', etc as suggested by some journalists.

My comment was general but I agree with you. My comment was about early stories naysaying AIMs F-35s the whole shebang is shite and stuff of that nature - I should have made that clear. Yes it seems the AIM-9X was a dud and we may never know what happened to that missile but luckily the pilot could try something different and the AIM-120 did the job.

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 17 Sep 2017, 11:29
by spazsinbad
hythelday wrote:
Dragon029 wrote:
Meanwhile I think it is clear that the multiple passes with flares was the Hornet and NOT the Su-22. I can see how someone listening to an earlier pilot story could have mistaken 'who fired the flares' or it is just more 'fake news/misinformation'.

I don't know if that was directed towards my previous comment, but if so, I know the Super Hornet pilots deployed flares to warn off the Syrian pilot, I'm just curious as to whether the Su-22 itself was deploying flares when Mob fired his AIM-9X at it, because if it didn't, that would increase the probability that the AIM-9X just had a random failure, not that it was 'defeated by special flare patterns', etc as suggested by some journalists.



I too, wondered about that. Pilots described the engagement down to every detail, even mentioning which direction the wrecked plane pitched and what the parachute looked like, seems strange he would omit such important detail - unless - they were instructed not to expand on that. Nobody asked "why did it miss?" in the questions either, for the same reason I believe.

YEP and I guess camera fillum does lie also. Who knows - my suggestion is believe what you heard in the video. All the rest without corroboration is just guesswork and leave it at that. OMG the internet can be stupid sometimes - all the time. :mrgreen:

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 18 Sep 2017, 23:48
by Dragon029
Apparently the F/A-18E / Su-22 footage is unclassified (though maybe still not yet for official public release - anyone want to file a FOIA?) - footage showing the end of the engagement (of the AMRAAM impacting), as well as the F-15E's shootdown of Iran's drone has made its way to Twitter:

https://twitter.com/beverstine/status/9 ... 2597679105

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 19 Sep 2017, 23:03
by spazsinbad
Now on the YOU of much TUBE:


Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 21 Sep 2017, 06:22
by Dragon029
New footage of the Su-22 shootdown from multiple angles (it only appears to show the AIM-120 though):

Starts at 6:10:
https://youtu.be/LWtRjcLRQFk?t=371

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 23 Sep 2017, 23:47
by spazsinbad
Caça Su-22 da Síria sendo abatido por um F/A-18E Super Hornet dos EUA


Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 25 Mar 2018, 21:29
by spazsinbad
Well Well Well. This NAN Naval Aviation News 21 Mar 2018 report on the shoot down says...
Super Hornet Pilots Recall Downing of Syrian Aircraft
21 Mar 2018 Naval Aviation News Staff

"...The Syrian Jet
The aircraft was many miles away, but northbound and approaching. A Boeing E-3 Sentry airborne warning and control aircraft used its more advanced radar to identify the inbound aircraft as a Syrian, Soviet-era Su-22 Fitter. Tremel descended to execute a visual identification. He offset his jet’s position and maneuvered to join up with the Syrian jet, about half a mile away. As the Syrian jet proceeded north toward the SDF, Krueger coordinated with the JTAC to keep Tremel updated on how close the aircraft was to the SDF’s position.

“Within 10 nautical miles of there [overhead the SDF’s position], the Syrian aircraft executed a dive,” Tremel said. “At the bottom of his dive, he was about seven nautical miles from the position.” With the aircraft fast approaching engagement range, Krueger advised executing a “head butt,” a maneuver in which a fighter jet passes close overhead another aircraft and shoots out flares, warning its pilot. Tremel executed three, but the Syrian jet was undeterred.

The Sentry issued warning calls over the aircraft emergency frequency, urging the Su-22 to reverse course, but the Syrian jet did not respond. Meanwhile, Krueger updated the JTAC. “I’m talking to the JTAC to let him know we got this situation going on,” he said. “So the guys on the ground can get their heads down.” After its dive, the Syrian jet executed a climb, from Tremel’s perspective turning right and then left, positioning itself over the SDF’s position. When Tremel observed the jet release its ordnance, he knew what he had to do next.

Following behind the Syrian jet, Tremel armed an AIM-9 Sidewinder short-range air-to-air missile, and fired. The Syrian jet’s defensive flares diverted the missile. “It came off the rails quick,” Tremel said. “I lost the smoke trail and I had no idea what happened to the missile after that.”

Next, Tremel fired an AIM-120, an advanced medium-range air-to-air missile. It struck the back of the Syrian jet, sending it pitching right and down. A cloud of metal debris flew from the jet as the force of the explosion tore it apart. The whole incident lasted only about eight minutes—from the time he spotted the jet on his radar, to the moment the missile struck...."

Source: http://navalaviationnews.navylive.dodli ... ver-syria/

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 25 Mar 2018, 23:40
by hythelday
:shock:
Well it's confirmed then, IIR seeker can be spoofed; even though it was a M4 version, still, quite an embarassment for the Raytheon.

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 26 Mar 2018, 02:56
by spazsinbad
For my interest it is not clear what 'an M4 version' is. Is it an AIM-9M and how do you know the version of Sidewinder? TAH.

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 26 Mar 2018, 08:05
by hythelday
spazsinbad wrote:For my interest it is not clear what 'an M4 version' is. Is it an AIM-9M and how do you know the version of Sidewinder? TAH.


Su-22M4, one of a more recent updates of the venerable Fitter. IIRC it was confirmed by earlier reports AIM-9X was used.

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 26 Mar 2018, 08:51
by Dragon029
hythelday wrote::shock:
Well it's confirmed then, IIR seeker can be spoofed; even though it was a M4 version, still, quite an embarassment for the Raytheon.

I wouldn't say that; the statement that Spaz bolded isn't a quote from the pilot, and I'm not sure how anyone could be certain that it was the flares when the pilot himself said that he lost the smoke trail and had no idea what happened to the missile.

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 26 Mar 2018, 09:18
by hornetfinn
spazsinbad wrote:Well Well Well. This NAN Naval Aviation News 21 Mar 2018 report on the shoot down says...
Super Hornet Pilots Recall Downing of Syrian Aircraft
21 Mar 2018 Naval Aviation News Staff

Following behind the Syrian jet, Tremel armed an AIM-9 Sidewinder short-range air-to-air missile, and fired. The Syrian jet’s defensive flares diverted the missile. “It came off the rails quick,” Tremel said. “I lost the smoke trail and I had no idea what happened to the missile after that.”


This still sounds rather strange. If a target aircraft releases flares and missile is decoyed by them, the missile still flies very much towards the aircraft. The flares burn (and thus are able to decoy the missile) only for some seconds and the jet and the flares would not be that far apart no matter what. Of course with sidewinder the smoke trail would be present only for few seconds and the pilot would likely not see the missile itself. But I doubt there is any way of knowing whether the missile was diverted by flares or if there was some malfunction.

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 26 Mar 2018, 10:11
by spazsinbad
hythelday wrote:
spazsinbad wrote:For my interest it is not clear what 'an M4 version' is. Is it an AIM-9M and how do you know the version of Sidewinder? TAH.


Su-22M4, one of a more recent updates of the venerable Fitter. IIRC it was confirmed by earlier reports AIM-9X was used.

OK thanks. Now where is it stated an AIM-9X used? I could try to find that but where do you say that info may be found?

I'm with the DRAGON on this. The pilot explaining at TAILHOOK did not mention Su-22 flares; no one asked after them also. 'hornetfinn' has a good overview as well. These missiles disappear real quick - pilot will see flares and note them.

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 26 Mar 2018, 23:15
by wrightwing
In the live briefing, the pilot never mentioned flares. That appears to be added by the writer.

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 27 Mar 2018, 00:52
by optimist
What I found watchful during his video on the encounter, was the time lag from firing the aim-9 to switching and firing the aim120. He made comment on it.

I think the flairs being the cause wasn't said by the pilot and is possibly a jurno additive to spike the story. To paraphrase the pilot, the missile was a fizzer. AFAIK the modern aim9's are image targeted and flair resistant, like the asraam.

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 27 Mar 2018, 14:54
by botsing
wrightwing wrote:In the live briefing, the pilot never mentioned flares. That appears to be added by the writer.

This is indeed the impression I get too. Especially since the rest of the pilot comments are between quotes.

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 27 Mar 2018, 17:02
by zero-one
since not all missiles are the same, its possible to coin that on countermeasures as well, Some countermeasures do work better than other.

So when we say "flare resistant" the question becomes, "against which type?". And used in combination with other flares which offer a different signature can also confuse the missile further.

here is just one example of advanced IR countermeasures.
http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... flare.html
The flare is a specialized, multi-spectral, countermeasure device used in combination with other flares on vulnerable, low-, slow-flying aircraft, such as helicopters and fixed-wing transport/cargo aircraft. The M212 works by releasing an infrared signature that mimics the infrared signature of the aircraft, so if a specialized weapon is used, the flare will decoy the missile to it -- protecting the aircraft.

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 27 Mar 2018, 18:21
by marsavian
http://aviationweek.com/blog/we-didn-t- ... itches-did

The CIA gave us a flare dispenser from a Frogfoot [Su-25] that had been shot down in Afghanistan. We gave it to maintenance – it was just a thing with wires coming out of it. Four hours later they had it operational on a MiG-21."

That proved to be a very important test. "In 1987 we had the AIM-9P, which was designed to reject flares, and when we used US flares against it would ignore them and go straight for the target. We had the Soviet flares – they were dirty, and none of them looked the same – and the AIM-9P said 'I love that flare'.

"Why’d that happen? We had designed it to reject American flares. The Soviet flares had different burn time, intensity and separation. The same way, every time we tried to build a SAM simulator, when we got the real thing it wasn’t the same.

"I use the AIM-9P because it is out of the system and I can talk about it. The same thing happened to a lot of things that are still in the system and that I can’t talk about."

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 27 Mar 2018, 19:02
by juretrn
marsavian wrote:http://aviationweek.com/blog/we-didn-t-know-what-90-percent-switches-did

The CIA gave us a flare dispenser from a Frogfoot [Su-25] that had been shot down in Afghanistan. We gave it to maintenance – it was just a thing with wires coming out of it. Four hours later they had it operational on a MiG-21."

That proved to be a very important test. "In 1987 we had the AIM-9P, which was designed to reject flares, and when we used US flares against it would ignore them and go straight for the target. We had the Soviet flares – they were dirty, and none of them looked the same – and the AIM-9P said 'I love that flare'.

"Why’d that happen? We had designed it to reject American flares. The Soviet flares had different burn time, intensity and separation. The same way, every time we tried to build a SAM simulator, when we got the real thing it wasn’t the same.

"I use the AIM-9P because it is out of the system and I can talk about it. The same thing happened to a lot of things that are still in the system and that I can’t talk about."

What does a 40 year old -9P have to do with the -9X?

Re: F-18E Downes Syrian Warplane

Unread postPosted: 27 Mar 2018, 19:05
by SpudmanWP
What does a 40 year old -9P have to do with the -9X?


The last line

"I use the AIM-9P because it is out of the system and I can talk about it. The same thing happened to a lot of things that are still in the system and that I can’t talk about."