HAL LCA as Fourth Generation Aircraft

Unread postPosted: 10 Jan 2006, 01:55
by IndianAirForce
http://english.people.com.cn/200601/09/ ... 34043.html

This link to the people daily online article which states that the HAL Tejas is a "Fourth Generation Aircraft"

It also stated that the IAF is only ordering 20 some aircraft.

I was wondering if the HAL tejas is really a fourth generation aircraft. It was designed around the 80s along with many delays. I wouldn't exactly call it a fourth generation aircraft. It does not have as advances technology as the gripen, Raptor, or any other fourth generation aircraft.

It also said that the IAF is only buying some 20 aircraft. I have read previously that they were planning to buy at least 70 aircraft buy 2011.

There would be no point to buy only 20 aircraft.

RE: HAL LCA as Fourth Generation Aircraft

Unread postPosted: 14 Jan 2006, 21:26
by Raven11
looking at the spec. it really looks like its on par with the F-16 10- 30's or maybe.. the J-10 i mean it was built to just replace the mig-21 untill i get into the cockpit or see an airshow it really looks like a third gen.

to me you are right there is no point to buy only 20 of the aircraft, i'm all for making indiginous aircraft from your own country (adlest you won't get embargoed) but 20 dosen't even break even on development cost even with F-16 you don't order 20 of anything expecialy if you have a lot of sky to defend i really hope the order is increaced or at least they must have capibilitys the plublic isn't aware of

RE: HAL LCA as Fourth Generation Aircraft

Unread postPosted: 22 Jan 2006, 13:32
by Yugandhar
The LCA Tejas is a 4th generation jet due to some salient features:

1] Quadruplex fly-by-wire.
2] All weather, multi-role capability.
3] Multi-mode radar of range 100 kms.
4] Cockpit of international standards with HOTAS, multiple MFDs, and advanced HUD.
(Photo of cockpit: http://www.aerospaceweb.org/aircraft/cockpits/)
5] Capability to carry BVR weapons, and laser-guided bombs. Has laser pod, and FLIR.

Link:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... ia/lca.htm

It can easily compare to any 4th generation fighter jet of today like the JAS-49 Grippen, J-10, or even the F-16.

RE: HAL LCA as Fourth Generation Aircraft

Unread postPosted: 11 May 2006, 07:07
by Aks_20
Dude 20 a/c is just the initial tranche for the IAF to evaluate it and lend support to the program!

Overall prod numbers are to be in the 150-200 range.

RE: HAL LCA as Fourth Generation Aircraft

Unread postPosted: 11 May 2006, 09:02
by snypa777
Any data-link capability onboard the LCA?

It is a 4th gen` fighter....According to the Russian classification system.

Generally, a fourth gen` fighter was designed between 1970 and 1990. A 4.5 gen` 1990 to 2000. It is really a Russian classification for fighter classes. Outside of Russia, does anybody use the system officially? Is it even official in Russia?

I would suppose that the difference between a 4 and 4.5 would be limited stealth application and enhanced electronics. I don`t know if the LCA uses any stealthy features, like "S" shaped engine inlets and signature reduction from frontal aspect.

It is pretty subjective. A fighter designed in the 1980s as a 4th gen` fighter can be upgraded. Stealthy features being added. RAM coatings/ advanced electronics and radar/ TVC/ improved missiles.....would it then become 4.5 gen`?

I wouldn`t get hung up on that kind of classification. A better barometer would to compare like for like. The LCA versus XYZ in it`s peer group, in terms of the whole package... rather than when it was designed.

Unread postPosted: 12 May 2006, 02:39
by Aks_20
Original LCA datalink was A2A and A2G with datarate = russian types, ie kbps
Now IAF is getting a new class of datalinks in preparation for the Phalcon, mostly Israelui hardware and Indian software and integration. So that will go on the LCA as well.
LCA has significant signature reduction, its RCS is claimed to be a 3rd of standard fighter aircraft.

Unread postPosted: 12 May 2006, 06:42
by snypa777
AKs 20, thanks for the info.

I have done some reading, what I gather is that the LCA has no inherent stealth characteristics. It presents a smaller radar signature by virtue of it`s small size. It is actually a smaller aircraft than the JAS39 Gripen, a metre shorter. The LCA is the worlds smallest combat fighter. I don`t include trainer aircraft which can be used as emergency combat aircraft like the Korean Golden Eagle.

I think it is very impressive that India has developed this aircraft from scratch. A lot of the systems had new industries created to build them.
I don`t think any modern fighter of 4th or even 5th gen` is ever created totally indigenously. Even the F-22 has foreign components.

The LCA was built with help/input from Lockheed Martin, until sanctions put an end to it`s involvement. SNECMA, BAE Systems, Martin Baker, GE and MIG (engine testing) have had input into the design. The two most difficult areas seemed to be FBW (Fly by wire) and the "Kaveri" engine. The FBW, FCS problems were solved. The flight control laws were proven onboard F-16 VISTA simulators and aircraft I believe. That was impressive as no country used to export FBW know how which was classified AFAIK.

The biggest problem is certainly the local "Kaveri" engine. It must be very tough to build a modern combat jet engine from scratch. A variable cycle type no less. Even a local FADEC. GE flew in some retired engine experts at the request of the Indian government to help solve the problems. No one is saying what those difficulties were though. Everything else seems top notch. India is doing some things with composites that NO-ONE else is doing. I hope India solves the "Kaveri" problems soon.

The GE-F-404 will be used in the LCA for the first few squadrons. I think it would be wise to stick with the `404 in terms of export potential. Customers know what they are getting with that engine. Especially in terms of support, spares, upgrades.

Apparently IAF pilots would prefer the F-404 unit, it is a proven engine.

Overall though, good show from India which was brave enough to go it alone and produce the thing. 8)

Unread postPosted: 12 May 2006, 07:15
by toan
The RCS of standard fighter, in western opinion, is 5m2 (MIG-29) class.

In Russian opinion, it is 3m2 (MIG-21) class.

Unread postPosted: 12 May 2006, 08:08
by snypa777
Toan, do you know the RCS of the LCA Tejas? I don`t think it will be published though.

Unread postPosted: 15 May 2006, 01:28
by GhostOfRazgriz
Not the prettiest fighter.

Unread postPosted: 15 May 2006, 07:00
by Angels225
Looks like the illigit love child of the Rafale and M2K

Unread postPosted: 05 Jun 2006, 18:20
by Vinay

Unread postPosted: 05 Jun 2006, 19:31
by RoAF
It doesn't need to be pretty, as long as it gets the job done. The A-10 is really ugly but VERY useful and loved by the ground troops...

Unread postPosted: 09 Jun 2006, 11:27
by Angels225
somehow i think the IAf was better of gettin more Su-30's or Migs than this thing

Unread postPosted: 09 Jun 2006, 11:41
by RoAF
somehow i think the IAf was better of gettin more Su-30's or Migs than this thing

You can't buy a new Su or MiG at 15-20 mil. a piece

Unread postPosted: 09 Jul 2006, 22:58
by Aks_20
snypa777 wrote:AKs 20, thanks for the info.

I have done some reading, what I gather is that the LCA has no inherent stealth characteristics. It presents a smaller radar signature by virtue of it`s small size. It is actually a smaller aircraft than the JAS39 Gripen, a metre shorter. The LCA is the worlds smallest combat fighter. I don`t include trainer aircraft which can be used as emergency combat aircraft like the Korean Golden Eagle.


Hi Snypa,
The LCA's was designed to be low RCS, hence they chose composites ...it has one of the highest proportion of composites in any modern fighter today, if not the greatest. Basically, the small size and choice of materials has enabled it to reduce its signature. Of course, with underslung weaponry, that advantage is slightly negated.

I think it is very impressive that India has developed this aircraft from scratch. A lot of the systems had new industries created to build them.
I don`t think any modern fighter of 4th or even 5th gen` is ever created totally indigenously. Even the F-22 has foreign components.


Well said sir.


The LCA was built with help/input from Lockheed Martin, until sanctions put an end to it`s involvement. SNECMA, BAE Systems, Martin Baker, GE and MIG (engine testing) have had input into the design. The two most difficult areas seemed to be FBW (Fly by wire) and the "Kaveri" engine. The FBW, FCS problems were solved. The flight control laws were proven onboard F-16 VISTA simulators and aircraft I believe. That was impressive as no country used to export FBW know how which was classified AFAIK.


Very correct.

The biggest problem is certainly the local "Kaveri" engine. It must be very tough to build a modern combat jet engine from scratch. A variable cycle type no less. Even a local FADEC. GE flew in some retired engine experts at the request of the Indian government to help solve the problems. No one is saying what those difficulties were though. Everything else seems top notch. India is doing some things with composites that NO-ONE else is doing. I hope India solves the "Kaveri" problems soon.


The Kaveri is a typical example of the LCA approach, ie aim for the moon but spend Indian amounts and shoot for the stars...but it has been derailed because very limited experience exists in terms of building jet engines. The private sector in India could have hired top notch talent (purchased, from abroad) but Indian Govt procedures stuck as they are in legalistic bureaucracy forbid such "shortcuts".

The GE-F-404 will be used in the LCA for the first few squadrons. I think it would be wise to stick with the `404 in terms of export potential. Customers know what they are getting with that engine. Especially in terms of support, spares, upgrades.


I agree, but the sanctions issue and political issues crop up wrt the foreign engine. Plus the IAF and the Army in India are renowned for putting much more stringent conditions on locally produced equipment than that imported. So the Kaveri will continue to be important.

Apparently IAF pilots would prefer the F-404 unit, it is a proven engine.

Overall though, good show from India which was brave enough to go it alone and produce the thing. 8)


Thank you, its great someone gets the import of the program and its significance to Indias aeronautical industry.

Unread postPosted: 09 Jul 2006, 22:59
by Aks_20
Angels225 wrote:somehow i think the IAf was better of gettin more Su-30's or Migs than this thing


One day, one has to start making things, instead of always taking the easy way out via imports!

Re: HAL LCA as Fourth Generation Aircraft

Unread postPosted: 24 Jul 2011, 05:52
by akshaymehra
my dear friend as an authority i would like to tell you and everyone here that Tejas is really a 4.5 gen aircraft with its reduced radar signature which is due to the highest amount of use of composite material in the world. it has semi stealth capability which makes it 4.5 gen. although it started in 1980 but actual work began only in 1994 and with your stupid logic the americal F18 hornet which was developed in 170 would be very bad then as per ur stupid logic of which year development started ?
Also IAF has initially ordered 20 aircrafts to check and suggest further improvements and at same time IAF has ordered 220 Tejas to be delivered in phases already and navy has 50 requirements. so first improve your knowledge about facts then open your mouth. without any relevant knowledge you people just keep barking
even the foreign pilots who came to aeroshow and studied its flight were dumbstruck and full of praise.
Tejas with its semi stealthy nature , MMR radar , d variety of advanced weapon control systems which are similar to rafale is far far better than J10 or F-16 which pakistan has.






IndianAirForce wrote:http://english.people.com.cn/200601/09/eng20060109_234043.html

This link to the people daily online article which states that the HAL Tejas is a "Fourth Generation Aircraft"

It also stated that the IAF is only ordering 20 some aircraft.

I was wondering if the HAL tejas is really a fourth generation aircraft. It was designed around the 80s along with many delays. I wouldn't exactly call it a fourth generation aircraft. It does not have as advances technology as the gripen, Raptor, or any other fourth generation aircraft.

It also said that the IAF is only buying some 20 aircraft. I have read previously that they were planning to buy at least 70 aircraft buy 2011.

There would be no point to buy only 20 aircraft.

RE: Re: HAL LCA as Fourth Generation Aircraft

Unread postPosted: 24 Jul 2011, 05:52
by akshaymehra
my dear friend as an authority i would like to tell you and everyone here that Tejas is really a 4.5 gen aircraft with its reduced radar signature which is due to the highest amount of use of composite material in the world. it has semi stealth capability which makes it 4.5 gen. although it started in 1980 but actual work began only in 1994 and with your stupid logic the americal F18 hornet which was developed in 170 would be very bad then as per ur stupid logic of which year development started ?
Also IAF has initially ordered 20 aircrafts to check and suggest further improvements and at same time IAF has ordered 220 Tejas to be delivered in phases already and navy has 50 requirements. so first improve your knowledge about facts then open your mouth. without any relevant knowledge you people just keep barking
even the foreign pilots who came to aeroshow and studied its flight were dumbstruck and full of praise.
Tejas with its semi stealthy nature , MMR radar , d variety of advanced weapon control systems which are similar to rafale is far far better than J10 or F-16 which pakistan has.

Unread postPosted: 25 Jul 2011, 22:53
by keithmoon
First of all, you should be a bit more respectful, Akshay. Your post lacks even the slightest bit of civility, even when considering the original poster was clearly mistaken about a few things.

Fighter generation classification is a hazy practice and mostly used for marketing purposes. But, I wouldn't consider Tejas Mk. 1 to be a 4.5Gen aircraft. It lacks an AESA radar and it's sensor fusion and man-machine interface is nowhere near it's western contemporaries. As a matter of fact, P.V. Naik has stated:

“Tejas is not yet a fourth generation aircraft. It can of course come up to that level given the technology, but it needs more work...Having checked and compared the endurance, performance, load carrying capacity, weapons delivering ability, accuracy, avionics and the radars, I think it is a MiG-21++.”

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/127 ... thers.html

I assume the Indian Air Chief is a better authority than you, Akshay. I have no doubts that Tejas Mk. 2 will be a more modern aircraft with better avionics and more refined aerodynamics. Perhaps, with enough work, it will be nearly as capable as the Gripen (it, after all, has a better engine). In my estimation, the only 4.5Gen Fighters are the soon-to-be-AESA-equipped Rafale, F-16_60, F-18E/F, Strike Eagle (and variants), and the Mitsubishi F-2 as they all are AESA-equipped and operational. Currently, Mig-35, Gripen NG, and CaptorE-equipped Eurofighter exist only on paper.

LCA uses an incredible amount of composites and this is respectable (especially in comparison to its 4th Gen contemporaries), but it doesn't mean that it has the most advanced airframe. Composites are useful in reducing RCS, but what about its thermal characteristics? The F-22, which costs over 6 times the LCA, uses huge amounts of Ti to control its thermal signature in addition to sporting a VLO airframe. It is hard to track by either radar OR IRST! But, it is obviously a 5th gen fighter.

The F-18 was indeed designed in the late 70's, but it will soon be replaced by the F-35, which is decades ahead of the Tejas. It is very likely that Tejas Mk. 2 and F-35 will be inducted at the same time. Furthermore, F-18E/F was designed in the late 80's/early 90's, and will likely be substantially more advanced than even Tejas Mk. 2. I don't think any country, or consortium of countries, can touch the Americans' electronics prowess quite yet.

Where did you find that India will buy 220 Tejas Mk. 2? Clearly, this is just speculation, as no one in the IAF has commented on how many Tejas Mk. 2 will be purchased. The Press speculates anywhere between 100-200 specimen will be inducted, but no firm order number has been established and no comment has been made anywhere by either the CCS or IAF.

Lastly, Pakistan's F-16_52 are substantially better aircraft than the LCA. LCA is not meant as a counter for these planes (Su-30MKI, Mig-29UPG, and MMRCA are). The LCA is a replacement for the Mig-21/BISON and its direct Pakistani competitor is the JF-17. The Tejas is more advanced than the JF-17, certainly. No one knows how advanced Chinese avionics technology is. How then can you be certain that Tejas is more advanced than J-10B? It might be, but it is not certain. The Radar and electronics suite for LCA Mk. 2 has neither been finalized nor announced, so it would be impossible to comment on the efficacy of Tejas Mk. 2 vs. any other fighter.

In reality, Tejas Mk. 1 is a near-4th generation fighter and is an excellent replacement for India's low-end Mig-21. It is constructed with a high amount of composites with some novel fabrication processes and likely sports a very small RCS when equipped as an interceptor. It is an excellent attempt by India to create an affordable fighter and develop its indigenous industry. It does not compare with F-18E/F, Eurofighter, Rafale, Gripen NG, etc... as it was never meant to! With a better electronic suite, Tejas Mk. 2, per the estimation of P.V. Naik, will be a 4th generation aircraft. I estimate IAF will purchase between 60 - 150 LCA Mk. 2 and opt for an additional 3-4 squadrons of MMRCA after the first 6 squadrons are delivered.

Before you bash others, calling them stupid, unknowledgeable, and liken them to dogs, I suggest you further research this topic which you self-proclaim to be an authority in...because you seem to be mistaken about quite a number of things.

Unread postPosted: 25 Jul 2011, 23:54
by keithmoon
oops...double post.

Unread postPosted: 26 Jul 2011, 00:01
by 1st503rdsgt
It's a little small by modern standards, but I think it will serve its purpose. It could also be a serviceable, low-cost alternative to more advanced airframes should economics or politics interfere with other purchases.

Unread postPosted: 02 Aug 2011, 19:38
by mintsauce
keithmoon, it seems you are little misinformed about HAL tejas as well.

the ACM was talking about the Mk1 standard as it stood right then, at IOC level and FOC yet to be completed.
this is what he thinks about the whole generation business.

http://spsaviation.net/story_issue.asp?Article=736
SP’s: Could you give the latest update on the indigenous light combat aircraft (LCA) Tejas development/acquisition programme? ....

CAS: As of now, we have seven LCA aircraft and these are being put through their final paces, before induction into the IAF this year. We are expecting two more limited series production aircraft to join the fleet by the third quarter this year. The LCA, in its present form, is a fourth generation aircraft and we are working with HAL to enhance its capabilities. I am hopeful that the aircraft, in its final operational clearance configuration, will be a much more potent platform, to be a ‘fourth generation plus


so clearly, he thinks that Tejas Mk2 will be a 4.5 gen fighter.

I have no idea why you think a fighter with a 3 axis digital quad FBW, internal jammers, an open architecture avionics system that enables quick upgradation etc is near fourth gen.
avionics developed for the LCA project are in fact used to upgrade the su-30mki, IAF's premier fighter and will find its way into the PAKFA in the near future. what's more, the Mk2 version will also feature an AESA radar.
all in all, the only thing it would really lack is an IIR sensor, but then that's the case with many 4th gen aircraft.
it would surely not be able to match the range or payload performance of a F16 but I don't see how tech wise it is lagging behind.

as for numbers, unlike other air forces IAF does not order hundreds of aircraft in one go, the MRCA is an exception in that regard. current firm orders are 40 from IAF and a commitment from IAF chief of 140 or more. add to that the 50 naval version the navy wants, the total comes quite close to 220 doesn't it ?

Unread postPosted: 03 Aug 2011, 01:19
by geogen
I'd be interested to see the Tejas LCA-Naval variant fly with next-gen F414 EPE upgraded power. That could enable quite an interesting cost-effective capability, not necessarily limited to Naval based operation imho.

Unread postPosted: 09 Oct 2011, 20:10
by southernphantom
Naw, it ain't THAT ugly. The Typhoon and Rafale are far worse.

Re: HAL LCA as Fourth Generation Aircraft

Unread postPosted: 08 Jan 2019, 10:46
by element1loop
Couldn’t find a better thread to put this in so hope this one is sufficent.

HAL gets nod to produce weaponised version of LCA Tejas

Updated: Jan 04, 2019, 05.57 PM IST

BENGALURU: The Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) has been given the nod to manufacture weaponised version of Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas for the Indian Air Force and the first such aircraft is expected to be out by the year-end, according to a company spokesperson. The Centre for Military Airworthiness and Certification (CEMILAC) has given the green signal to start manufacturing of Tejas Mk1 under Final Operational Clearance (FOC) configuration, he said. …

… "The IAF has ordered 40 LCA aircraft. Of this, 20 will be FOC-configured. Another 20 are IOC (Initial Operational Clearance)-configured," the HAL spokesperson said. Some 10 to 11 IOC-configured Tejas have been given to the IAF, which flies them to get acquainted with the LCA's competencies, he said. Asked when the first weaponised aircraft would be out, the spokesperson said, "Our objective is to deliver it with FOC configuration by year-end -- between October and December."


https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 379924.cms

Re: HAL LCA as Fourth Generation Aircraft

Unread postPosted: 08 Jan 2019, 11:52
by weasel1962
The title is a bit misleading. The IOC Tejas Mk1 is weaponised with a WVR missile that is the R-73E (originally R-60, its that old) w HMD. FOC was delayed due to the after-thought selection of Derby (non-ER) with Python 5 combo which will "eventually" be fitted into the IOC version. IOC also integrated Russian M-62 1000lb bombs.

The IAF actually ordered a bit more than 40 if one includes the 2 tech demos, 5 prototypes and 7 LSPs (LSP 1-8 minus 6 which was not built). The Indian Navy ordering another 2 prototypes. The 40 also includes 8 trainers which has not been IOC-ed, relying on 2 of the prototypes (PV4 and 5 which for training, the former later converted to PV6).

Janes recently reported the selection of EL/M-2052 AESA as the radar for the Mark 1A and a SPJ (EL/M-8222). The IOC and FOC version are equipped with the EL/M-2032 radar, compatible with the Derby/Python 5. The FOC version will have air refuel. The Tejas also had issues with the RWR and CMDS (counter measures dispensers).

The original production schedule of FOC Tejas was 3 years from 2017-2018 to 2019-2020 followed by Mk 2. 2017-2018 refers to April 2017 to Mar 2018 which is the Indian fiscal year. The now realistic schedule will likely be 2019-2020 start to 2021-2022 complete, followed by the Mk 1A with a completed delivery date of 2026/2027. This is consistent with first deliveries by Oct-Dec 2019. At 8 a year, FOC should complete by Dec 2021. CAG indicated the original intent was to acquire 11 squadrons, the first 2 being based at Sulur. 45 Squadron has started to operate from Sulur in Jul 2018.

Re: HAL LCA as Fourth Generation Aircraft

Unread postPosted: 08 Jan 2019, 12:25
by element1loop
Yeah, thanks for the detail, I expect to counter 28 x JF-17 BKIIIs bound for Pakistan by 2022 (to support the existing 62 x BKII JF-17s) which were themselves a response to India selecting 36 x Rafale. The dance continues.

Re: HAL LCA as Fourth Generation Aircraft

Unread postPosted: 08 Jan 2019, 15:05
by weasel1962
Hard to imagine Pakistan has been producing the JF-17 for a decade by mid-2019. Its a credit that despite having an engine that has been a plague on the Mig-29 and chinese avionics, they managed to build a plane that's a match for the Tejas and fairly reliable. 6 prototypes with 8 pre-production added to 50 block 1s + 50 block 2s by end 2017 + 50 more block 2 in the next 3 years is an achievement esp in the context of the Pakistani budget. Exports to Nigeria, Myanmar have opened up a whole string of 3rd world countries order potential that is even making China look pricey. India could have achieved the same 20 years ago but got sidetracked on "made in india" with things like the Kaveri engine.

JF-17 block 3 will be inducted at roughly the same time as the Tejas Mk 1A but the bonus is the likely retrofit of new capabilities into older blocks e.g. AESA radar that is keeping the Indian sub-continent militaries finely balanced. The original SD-10 has been improved to later marks. A whole suite of AGMs including GB-6, AKG400 cruise missiles is appealing matched with targeting pods and chinese EW. Its decent on paper and the biggest irritant to India is the new ZDK AEWs that neutralises in part the effectiveness of the much more capable Su-30MKIs.

The Tejas matches the capabilities on paper but the Pakistanis have been training on their JF-17s for far longer. The Rafale is also a capable plane but the IAF doctrine is too diverse to give assurance on operational effectiveness. Individual performance is normally high for Indian pilots but the network effectiveness of the IAF is suspect.

Re: HAL LCA as Fourth Generation Aircraft

Unread postPosted: 08 Jan 2019, 15:35
by tphuang
Considering that CAC did all the development work here, it's easy for Pakistan to "build" a fighter bettter than what India managed to. The one thing CAC did right is to just freeze the design originally and told PAF to take what they built. And now that they are up to the third block, it looks to be the right pragmatic way of doing things. And the cost is cheap enough that even Pakistan can afford it in large numbers. In the mean time, IAF takes forever to evaluate and make decision on everything so they can get exactly what they think they need. By the end of it, projects like MRCA have huge inflated costs and are delivered years behind original goal and at fewer numbers.

Re: HAL LCA as Fourth Generation Aircraft

Unread postPosted: 09 Jan 2019, 00:57
by weasel1962
There are inherent advantages that the Chinese provide e.g. Beidou access and cheap UAVs. Its easy to talk about indigenous development but India has shown what the reality really is. Despite all the talk about local development, its still foreign engine, radar, avionics, nose cone, munitions for the Tejas.

That's why India has limited JDAM-like capability whereas Pakistan has gone all in.

Re: HAL LCA as Fourth Generation Aircraft

Unread postPosted: 09 Jan 2019, 08:53
by weasel1962
Malaysia looking at Tejas.

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2019/01/ ... stani.html

Weasel's note.
Malaysia which has a limited military budget is reportedly looking at the Tejas. Cooperation with India is significant in terms of Sukhoi maintenance and training support. However, it is too early to rule out JF-17, particularly as the Tejas uses a lot of Israeli tech that is "haram" to Malaysia. Hence they might do what they did with the Su-30mkm which is to integrate western avionics.

The use of Chinese tech is not unacceptable to Malaysia since they have procured littoral combat vessel from China (and made in China). Malaysia has also bought Pakistani ATGMs under the current PM. The current PM is also a maverick, known for pushing Malaysia's military procurement from a purely western arm to integrate the Mig-29 (which allowed the follow on buy of the Su-30mkm.The RD-33 engine is similar to the Mig-29s used by the RMAF. Similarly the F404 equips the legacy hornets operated by the same.

Also although Malaysia's 2018 military budget has seen a drop from 2017, the procurement of combat aircraft is a well known and long term plan whose need is recognised and shared by all political parties in Malaysia. A $25-30+m buy along the JF-17 range is likely appealing from a budget standpoint which is similar to a Mk 1 cost although a Tejas mk 1A appears to be significantly higher cost.

Re: HAL LCA as Fourth Generation Aircraft

Unread postPosted: 09 Jan 2019, 09:17
by element1loop
weasel1962 wrote:Malaysia looking at Tejas.

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2019/01/ ... stani.html


Interesting, didn't see that one coming, but it makes sense as well for low cost of operation.

Re: HAL LCA as Fourth Generation Aircraft

Unread postPosted: 10 Jan 2019, 02:56
by Corsair1963
HAL is only producing a handful of LCA (Tejas) per year. So, considering the chronic shortfall in Fighter strength in the Indian Air Force. How could they spare any for export.... :?

Re: HAL LCA as Fourth Generation Aircraft

Unread postPosted: 10 Jan 2019, 17:16
by mixelflick
Whether Tejas is near 4th gen, 4.5 gen or something else the big question is, is it affordable?

The way I understand it, India has a requirement for a LOT more combat aircraft. If Tejas is affordable, they ought to buy it and buy a lot of it - because it's the only aircraft that'll be able to be produced in numbers. The Rafale is a wonderfully capable aircraft, but no way they're going to ever be able to afford enough of them to fill out their fighter wings.

Tejas (like every other combat aircraft) will benefit from upgrades along the way, probably turning into a useful "swing role" fighter. Until the Indians actually get going though on stamping them out, "made in India" is going to ring hollow. If nothing else, it'll give them the experience necessary to build (later), more competitive airframes.

I do think its wing is ugly as all hell, but hey - aircraft tend to grow on you..

Re: HAL LCA as Fourth Generation Aircraft

Unread postPosted: 10 Jan 2019, 18:55
by tphuang
I think LCA is turning out to be a lot more expensive than originally planned. For the same cost, pretty sure IAF would rather have more MKIs. But if India wants to be a respected power, they need to develop their local industry.

Re: HAL LCA as Fourth Generation Aircraft

Unread postPosted: 11 Jan 2019, 03:44
by weasel1962
There are a lot of numbers floating around about HAL cost so I went back to the government source. The below does not include development costs.

The 20 IOC contract was signed for 2701.8 crore in Mar 2006 or 135 crore per fighter which translates at then exchange rate of 44.3 to US$30.5m each. The contract was amended to 2812.91 in 2008. By 2011, HAL was asking for 1381.98 crore in additional funds.

The 20 FOC contract was signed for 5989.38 crore in Dec 2010 or 299.5 crore per fighter which translates at then exchange rate of 45.3 to US$66m each. Its US$42.7m at today's exchange rate but clearly it would not be 299.5 crore per fighter today.

The Mk 1A contract has not been agreed. It is important to note that most of the foreign items would be priced in US$ so in crore terms, it would be more costly if bought today vs 5 years ago. The biggest foreign items include engine, radar, radome and other avionics.

I think US$60+m per plane would be realistic and more likely why Malaysia is not likely to purchase it due to the availability of cheaper options.

Re: HAL LCA as Fourth Generation Aircraft

Unread postPosted: 25 Jan 2020, 20:45
by basher54321
Flying and fighting in the HAL Tejas

https://hushkit.net/2020/01/25/flying-f ... eev-joshi/

Re: HAL LCA as Fourth Generation Aircraft

Unread postPosted: 26 Jan 2020, 16:32
by mixelflick
basher54321 wrote:Flying and fighting in the HAL Tejas

https://hushkit.net/2020/01/25/flying-f ... eev-joshi/


This was a fantastic interview, and more people really need to read it...

Like many others, I thought Tejas was a joke of a plane. But the reality is different, at least when you consider what it is beyond skin deep. The problem is that its often compared to much bigger, heavier fighters in the Eagle/Flanker class. Like this pilot said, Tejas is what the requirements specified - a light strike fighter.

It'll never have the range/payload of a Strike Eagle or even the F-16I/F-21. But as a first stab in the light strike-fighter category, it's not bad at all. They've got a great engine in it, some low observable capability and it sounds like excellent avionics.

I would have NEVER guessed an aircraft like that could have operated from a carrier, not in a million years. But they pulled it off, and it speaks to the engineers/people working on the the program and their determination/expertise. So I have a different opinion of the program now, and I think before its all said and done other people will too...

Re: HAL LCA as Fourth Generation Aircraft

Unread postPosted: 26 Jan 2020, 18:09
by marsavian

Re: HAL LCA as Fourth Generation Aircraft

Unread postPosted: 26 Jan 2020, 19:41
by madrat
If Brazil planned to stay in the carrier business this might be a non-VSTOL option.

But... even the Indian Navy now wants to just go for twin engine so N-LCA will probably die soon.

Re: HAL LCA as Fourth Generation Aircraft

Unread postPosted: 27 Jan 2020, 03:05
by Corsair1963
madrat wrote:If Brazil planned to stay in the carrier business this might be a non-VSTOL option.

But... even the Indian Navy now wants to just go for twin engine so N-LCA will probably die soon.



The proposed twin engine Naval LCA is pure fiction. Along with the MWF/MK II..... :?