Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 29 Jan 2016, 02:27
by edpop

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 29 Jan 2016, 19:01
by durahawk
This Thursday, Japan’s new Acquisition, Technology and Logistics Agency revealed the Mitsubishi Heavy Industries Advanced Technology Demonstrator – Experimental (ATD-X) fifth-generation fighter technology demonstrator, now dubbed X-2 and unofficially named ‘ShinShin,’ to the media at a heavily guarded hangar at a regional airport near the city of Komaki, in Aichi Prefecture. It has previously been showcased once already in May 2014.

The X-2 is the country’s first domestically produced full-scale test model—a technology demonstrator—of a new indigenous stealth fighter jet design, which has been under development at a Mitsubishi Heavy Industries plant in Toyoyama since 2009, with total program costs estimated at 39.4 billion yen (around $331 million).

The aircraft—an “advanced technology demonstration unit,” according to the Defense Technical Research and Development Institute –unveiled to the press will not be armed and is slated to be retired in three years, after having undergone extensive tests of advanced fifth-generation fighter technologies, for which Japan’s Defense Ministry has allocated 2.3 billion yen ($19.3 million) in the next fiscal year alone. It will be a testbed platform for multiple technologies including next generation electronically scanned array radar systems, multi-dimensional 3D thrust vectoring concepts, and fine-tune the aircraft’s stealth capabilities. (The X-2 features a special carbon-fiber composite material that absorbs radar waves.)

As I reported previously (See: “Japan’s 5th Generation Stealth Fighter to Make Maiden Flight in Early 2016”), the X-2 program’s goal is to eventually produce Japan’s first indigenously-designed fifth-generation air superiority fighter, designated F-3, with serial production slated to begin in 2027, although various delays in the development of the X-2 prototype including issues with the engine control software –scheduled to be fully developed by 2018– make a later date more likely.

The X-2 with a length of 14.2 meters and a wingspan of 9.1meters is scheduled to make its maiden flight in February 2016. I explained in my earlier piece:


Prior to its first test-flight, the aircraft will undergo extensive taxiing and ground trials at the Mitsubishi Heavy Industries testing center located in Aichi Prefecture on Japan’s main island of Honshu. From there the fighter prototype is expected to fly to Gifu Air Field, an airbase of the Japan Air Self-Defense Force, situated in the neighboring prefecture of Gifu sometime in February.

Lockheed-Martin is purported involved in the development of the X-2 prototype. The American aircraft maker was prohibited from selling its F-22 Raptor stealth air superiority fighter to Japan in the 2000s, causing Tokyo’s defense industry to kick-start development of the X-2.

The aircraft unveiled this Thursday is the only X-2 prototype constructed so far.
http://thediplomat.com/2016/01/japan-unveils-new-5th-generation-stealth-fighter-jet/


If Lockheed is really aiding Japan in developing the X-2, I can't imagine them willingly doing so if they thought it was a potential competitor...? Or is this part of the F-35 deal to work with Japan in developing an indigenous fighter?

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 29 Jan 2016, 20:28
by alex_f
IIRC, Japan is very strict on weapons sale abroad (I guess it has to do with their peaceful constitution?), so it shouldn't be much of a competition. It's more a technology demonstrator than a fighter plane anyway.

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 29 Jan 2016, 21:21
by durahawk
alex_f wrote:IIRC, Japan is very strict on weapons sale abroad (I guess it has to do with their peaceful constitution?), so it shouldn't be much of a competition. It's more a technology demonstrator than a fighter plane anyway.


I think they lifted the export ban last year:
Japan’s self-imposed arms export embargo began modestly in 1967, based on the “three principles” of not exporting arms to communist states, states subject to UN arms embargoes, and states involved in or likely to be involved in international conflicts. Eventually, the policy evolved into a full-scale arms export ban, with only a few exceptions for technology transfers to the U.S. until Prime Minister Shinzo Abe overturned the ban in April 2014.

Under the new policy, Japan will continue the restriction of exports to states subject to UN embargoes (specifically Iran and North Korea) or involved in conflicts, but will allow exports in cases that will contribute to global peace and serve Japan’s security interests. The Abe government will also seek to make the process of defense exports and technology cooperation more transparent and to restrict the process so weapons will not be sold to third parties. In Chief Cabinet Secretary Yoshihide Suga’s words, the new policy “will contribute to peace and international cooperation from the standpoint of proactive pacifism.”
http://thediplomat.com/2015/01/japans-first-steps-into-the-world-of-arms-exports/


It's a shame Japan and South Korea don't get along well, otherwise I would say ATD-X and KF-X have quite similar objectives and would benefit from collaboration. Though I suppose this would be a moot point if the real end goal here is to develop and score national pride points for their respective aerospace industries...

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 29 Jan 2016, 22:03
by popcorn
I don't see it as much of a threat in the export market. Something like the F-2 vs the F-16. It's a jobs-generator for Tokyo and affordability would be my big question ie. It's gonna be pricey. Who will they sell it to? By then, many potential buyers would have gone with the F-35. Countries who aren't in Washington's good graces will make do with Russian or Chinese jets.

If LM can make money, it will seize the opportunity.

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 29 Jan 2016, 22:42
by flighthawk128
It's a shame Japan and South Korea don't get along well, otherwise I would say ATD-X and KF-X have quite similar objectives and would benefit from collaboration. Though I suppose this would be a moot point if the real end goal here is to develop and score national pride points for their respective aerospace industries...


I think a collaboration would actually be highly beneficial to both; those are good points. However, they can still score national pride points having both of them design and build in a collaboration (provided one doesn't muscle the other out in terms of design or manufacturing). Heck, Lockheed is purported to be working with South Korea on the KF-X anyways, why not just do a threeway :wink: . Cost can be shared, more can be made, and it might create a better aircraft at the end of the day, and improves and strengthens political relationships. (yes yes, I'm naive and optimistic AF)

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 29 Jan 2016, 23:43
by thenonflyingdutchman
Maybe the Japanese can partner up with the Germans.






Uh, wait a minute..

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 30 Jan 2016, 00:24
by popcorn
I'm curious as to the Japanese state-of-the-art in terms of engine tech. Everyone aside from the Americans seem to struggle in this area.

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 30 Jan 2016, 01:28
by botsing
popcorn wrote:I'm curious as to the Japanese state-of-the-art in terms of engine tech. Everyone aside from the Americans seem to struggle in this area.

Europeans seem to be doing okay as well with the EJ200.

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 30 Jan 2016, 07:18
by charlielima223
Its great to see this coming out of Japan but I really do not see the point in it especially when they're getting the F-35. Also I wonder if "critics" like Don Bacon (I put critics in quotes because that individual is just a douche-F**k) would follow that program and talk self inflated smack about it?

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 30 Jan 2016, 09:25
by zero-one
I don't see the F-3 as being in direct competition to the F-35, as the requirement for the ATD-X is to develop a primarily air superiority platform as opposed to the JSF program that was to developed primarily for strike purposes.

In the end the F-3 will be very attractive to air forces who want the A-A capabilities of a 5th generation fighter but don't necessarily need the air to surface capabilities of the F-35.

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 31 Jan 2016, 05:22
by charlielima223
zero-one wrote:I don't see the F-3 as being in direct competition to the F-35, as the requirement for the ATD-X is to develop a primarily air superiority platform as opposed to the JSF program that was to developed primarily for strike purposes.

In the end the F-3 will be very attractive to air forces who want the A-A capabilities of a 5th generation fighter but don't necessarily need the air to surface capabilities of the F-35.


I thought Japan with their constitution doesn't allow Japan to sell military arms to other nations.

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 31 Jan 2016, 08:52
by zero-one
Please correct me if I'm wrong
If I remember correctly Japan's constitution doesn't allow them to sell arms to nations:
1. Who are under UN weapons import embargo
2. who are likely to go to war
3. And I forgot the 3rd one,

But it does allow them to export to nations who are trying to secure peace and stability in their region.

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 31 Jan 2016, 08:56
by zero-one
Judging the book by it's cover it looks like the X-2 is tailored specifically for the air-air scenario as what was mentioned by Japanese media as well.

At least with it's X-31 style Thrust Vectoring nozzles is it safe to assume that the X-2 is aiming to have better slow speed and supersonic maneuverability than the F-35.

If you are reading this Sprst.... what can you say about the X-2's aerodynamic layout? is it aiming to compete against the Raptor in Kinematics?

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 31 Jan 2016, 12:38
by charlielima223
zero-one wrote:At least with it's X-31 style Thrust Vectoring nozzles is it safe to assume that the X-2 is aiming to have better slow speed and supersonic maneuverability than the F-35.

If you are reading this Sprst.... what can you say about the X-2's aerodynamic layout? is it aiming to compete against the Raptor in Kinematics?


without a powerful enough engine I don't think the X-2 or future F-3 would be in the same league. It would still be good just not "Raptor level" good.

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 31 Jan 2016, 14:04
by zero-one
charlielima223 wrote:
without a powerful enough engine I don't think the X-2 or future F-3 would be in the same league. It would still be good just not "Raptor level" good.


Well it's a bit early to tell, yes they don't have the technical expertise of the US and certainly not the budget to match the ATF program. But they do have time on their side.

Technology has advanced since the 16 years that the 1st F-22 rolled out. And by the time the first F-3 is scheduled to roll out (2027) the first F-22 would have been 30 years old.

the F-3 will never achieve what the F-22 has achieved which was to be 30-40 years more advanced than anything flying, but on the other hand the F-3 of 2027 may be comparable to the F-22 of 1997.

Anyway from what we can see and what they claim, it looks like the Japanese are very keen on making a very high performance platform, perhaps to match or surpass the F-22, at least in the extreme slow speed regime.

Next Gen AESA is also being claimed.

Here is a good read on what is known from the ATD-X program so far
http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/everyt ... 1755710322


Today the world got to know the jet that’s critical to Japan’s indigenous fighter design future. Until now, photos have been far from detailed and only showed limited angles. With today’s official unveiling, the world has a clearer view of what to expect from the X-2.

The First Clear Pictures Of Japan's Stealth Fighter Emerge

Japan's Mitsubishi built ATD-X experimental stealth fighter has emerged! This technology…
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A production variant, or some design based off the information that will be garnered by testing the X-2, is the end goal for Japan. The idea is for this aircraft’s design, and the subsystems that will fly on it, to be melded into a new indigenous fighter that will take to the skies towards the end of 2020s.

You may notice it almost looks like a jet trainer version of the F-22 Raptor. That should come as no surprise. Beyond using existing designs for a stepping off point, Japan had a serious lust for F-22 and offered to buy them really under any circumstances. This was controversially denied and the F-22 was made unexportable by law. Fast forward almost a decade and Japan seems to be trying to build their own.

Everything We Know About The X-2, The Future Of Japanese Stealth Fighter Design

The Mitsubishi ATD-X, now dubbed the X-2, was actually unveiled a year and a half ago, albeit in a much less intimate manner than the media event that occurred today. But with today’s reveal came many more details about this very important design.

The most notable feature is the the X-2's elaborate thrust vectoring system. It uses a trio of “paddles” on each engine exhaust that allow for independent high-angle deflection of each jet’s exhaust. Similar multi-dimensional thrust vectoring concepts have been used in the past, most notably by the X-31, which still remains the most maneuverable fighter-sized jet ever created.

Here is the X-31 in action:

The paddle-style thrust vectoring setup was also used on NASA F/A-18 HARV (High-Alpha Research Vehicle) test aircraft. HARV was also super-maneuverable and able to maintain controlled flight in the post-stall environment, even at extreme angles of attack.

The inclusion of this same sort of the thrust vectoring system, one that is not really conducive to a stealthy design, means Japan is looking to explore the realm of super-maneuverability as much as stealth with the X-2. There seem to be some superficial edge alignment design elements present in the paddles themselves which may reduce their radar reflectivity from certain angles, but by and large they are a hindrance to the jet’s radar supposed low radar cross-section. These paddles could be replaced by nozzles after certain test points have been reached.

As far as low-observability to radar goes, the X-2 has many of the features seen on modern stealthy fighter designs optimized to elude X, C and Ku band radars. These features include saw-toothed edges on major access panels and on articulating doors used in flight, such as the gear doors. The nose section has a sharp chine-line like those found on all stealthy aircraft. Twin tails are canted outward, and the aircraft has a smooth skin with a contentiously changing radius. Its intake ducts also appear to be shaped to shield the highly reflective faces of the jet’s turbofan engines.

Everything We Know About The X-2, The Future Of Japanese Stealth Fighter Design

The aircraft appears to be in an evolutionary state somewhere shy of the F-35's progenitor, the X-35. The fact that it really is a testbed aircraft for multiple technologies, not a single integrated design, at least yet, makes its lack of sophistication understandable.

Some features needed for initial test flights, especially those concerning flight envelope expansion, negate the design’s attempts at a low radar signature, but retrofits and/or follow-on prototypes will most likely eliminate those features (flight-test nose instrumentation, antennas, paddle exhausts, etc.)

Beyond stealth and thrust vectoring, the aircraft, which has had the “Spirit Of The Heart” nickname informally attached to it, is said to also be a surrogate for testing a whole load of other technologies that are not really visible on the outside.

A next generation active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar will fly aboard the jet at some point. Japan was the first country in the world to fly an AESA radar aboard an operational aircraft, their F-2 fighter. The radar was plagued with problems, but the technology has come a long way since and is on the “must have list” of any modern fighter, old or new.

SAAB's Gripen NG Fighter Has An Awesome Way To Make Its Radar More Capable

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It is likely that this new radar will feature secondary modes for electronic attack, high-bandwidth communications and passive surveillance of the radio frequency spectrum. These are just some of the latent and shadowy capabilities of AESA radar systems that are now just being explored outside of a blanket of secrecy.

Everything We Know About The X-2, The Future Of Japanese Stealth Fighter Design

The X-2 will also test a fly-by-fiber-optic flight control system (FCS). This “intelligent” FCS is by its very nature highly redundant and resistant to electronic interference. It could also be able to compensate for battle damage and major aircraft malfunctions, especially when tied seamlessly to the jet’s three dimensional thrust vectoring system.

The X-2 will also eventually fly with Japan’s most advanced electronic surveillance and countermeasures systems. These systems may not only be refined and used on a future X-2 derived fighter design, but they could be retrofitted to older combat aircraft still in service with the JASDF.

Last but certainly not least, the X-2 will fly with advanced turbofan engines known as the IHI XF5-1. Not much is known about this new powerplant, but it is a smaller engine with a high output for its size and weight. It may give the diminutive X-2 enough dry thrust (without afterburner) to achieve sustained super-cruise (supersonic flight without afterburner). The engine will likely be developed further for a larger production variant of the X-2.

Japan also has the F-35As on order, and they will surely learn a great deal by operating and maintaining it, much of which will also likely be spiraled back into their future fighter design.

Japan will spend huge mountains of Yen to keep their indigenous defense industries propped up and producing relevant weaponry. The X-2 is a manifestation of this and has already accrued a bill of $332 million. But this time Japan may be aiming at exporting their future fighter design as well as fielding it for their own use. Considering they will already have the F-35s for years by the time a new design is operational, offsetting the costs of “remaking the wheel” by their own hand may be found on the world’s increasingly active fighter jet market.

Regardless of whether Japan ever realizes their indigenous fifth generation fighter dreams on any relevant scale, it will be very interesting to see the X-2's development and testing progress.

The aircraft is set to make its first flight by end of this quarter.

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 31 Jan 2016, 16:33
by count_to_10
Seems kind of like a national vanity project, with all due respect. Chances are, the F-35 will be more capable all around (not just a better value).
For some reason, this reminds me of the Japanese show "Gate" which has been running over there: pro-military and in the right direction, but a bit overboard and misinformed in a number of important ways (particularly with respect to the US).

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 31 Jan 2016, 17:53
by sferrin
I think the whole region is a bit panicked about China's behavior and this administration's abandonment of it's allies there. They want to make sure they have in-house capability if they need it. South Korea is doing the same thing.

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 01 Feb 2016, 00:18
by charlielima223
zero-one wrote:
Well it's a bit early to tell, yes they don't have the technical expertise of the US and certainly not the budget to match the ATF program. But they do have time on their side.

Technology has advanced since the 16 years that the 1st F-22 rolled out. And by the time the first F-3 is scheduled to roll out (2027) the first F-22 would have been 30 years old.

the F-3 will never achieve what the F-22 has achieved which was to be 30-40 years more advanced than anything flying, but on the other hand the F-3 of 2027 may be comparable to the F-22 of 1997.

Anyway from what we can see and what they claim, it looks like the Japanese are very keen on making a very high performance platform, perhaps to match or surpass the F-22, at least in the extreme slow speed regime.

Next Gen AESA is also being claimed.



fair enough. At any rate I look forward to seeing and reading more about the ATD-X-2 :beer: :beer:

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 01 Feb 2016, 08:30
by Corsair1963
NO NO NO.........Honestly, don't get why some people keep trying to make the ATD-X into something it's not. The ATD-X is a "Demonstrator" for future fighter technologies. It is not a Prototype of the often discussed F-3. (which does not exist)


QUOTE: The Mitsubishi X-2 Shinshin (fomerly the ATD-X ) is a Japanese experimental aircraft for testing advanced stealth fighter aircraft technologies. It is being developed by the Japanese Ministry of Defense Technical Research and Development Institute (TRDI) for research purposes. The main contractor of the project is Mitsubishi Heavy Industries.


ATD-X is an acronym meaning "Advanced Technology Demonstrator – X"

The technologies gained with the development of the ATD-X/X-2 will likely be used in a future "6th Generation Fighter". Likely with a partner (i.e. US) not as a 5th Generation Air Superiority Fighter for the JASDF.

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 01 Feb 2016, 08:54
by hornetfinn
zero-one wrote:Well it's a bit early to tell, yes they don't have the technical expertise of the US and certainly not the budget to match the ATF program. But they do have time on their side.

Technology has advanced since the 16 years that the 1st F-22 rolled out. And by the time the first F-3 is scheduled to roll out (2027) the first F-22 would have been 30 years old.

the F-3 will never achieve what the F-22 has achieved which was to be 30-40 years more advanced than anything flying, but on the other hand the F-3 of 2027 may be comparable to the F-22 of 1997.


Well, Saturn V rocket is now 50 years but it's still the only launch vehicle that has been capable of transporting humans beyond Low Earth Orbit. It seems like this will be true for some time to come as it's still very difficult task to do and requires enormous amounts of money and other resources. I think same is true with VLO fighters. Basic technology is well known, but to design and manufacture a real VLO fighter, it takes a lot of research and development (meaning a lot of money and resources) to do. I think it will take a long time before F-22 equivalent fighter really emerges outside USA. I don't see T-50 or J-20 being even close to it.

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 01 Feb 2016, 09:11
by Corsair1963
zero-one wrote:I don't see the F-3 as being in direct competition to the F-35, as the requirement for the ATD-X is to develop a primarily air superiority platform as opposed to the JSF program that was to developed primarily for strike purposes.

In the end the F-3 will be very attractive to air forces who want the A-A capabilities of a 5th generation fighter but don't necessarily need the air to surface capabilities of the F-35.



As I have said the F-3 doesn't currently exist! Nor, is it likely to do so in the foreseeable future (if ever)
.... :bang: :bang: :bang:


The F-35J will me the premier Japanese Stealth Fighter in the JASDF for decades to come..... :twisted:

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 01 Feb 2016, 18:14
by durahawk
Corsair1963 wrote:The technologies gained with the development of the ATD-X/X-2 will likely be used in a future "6th Generation Fighter". Likely with a partner (i.e. US) not as a 5th Generation Air Superiority Fighter for the JASDF.


Source?
The X-2 is a technology demonstrator and may not represent a prototype F-3 in ultimate form, but most articles seem to indicate Japan has a very specific objective in mind with building and flying this aircraft. From the article I posted earlier:
As I reported previously (See: “Japan’s 5th Generation Stealth Fighter to Make Maiden Flight in Early 2016”), the X-2 program’s goal is to eventually produce Japan’s first indigenously-designed fifth-generation air superiority fighter, designated F-3, with serial production slated to begin in 2027, although various delays in the development of the X-2 prototype including issues with the engine control software –scheduled to be fully developed by 2018– make a later date more likely.

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 01 Feb 2016, 20:09
by zero-one
hornetfinn wrote:
Well, Saturn V rocket is now 50 years but it's still the only launch vehicle that has been capable of transporting humans beyond Low Earth Orbit. It seems like this will be true for some time to come as it's still very difficult task to do and requires enormous amounts of money and other resources. I think same is true with VLO fighters. Basic technology is well known, but to design and manufacture a real VLO fighter, it takes a lot of research and development (meaning a lot of money and resources) to do. I think it will take a long time before F-22 equivalent fighter really emerges outside USA. I don't see T-50 or J-20 being even close to it.


Fair points, but then again, not a lot of countries really aimed to go to the moon, well there were the Soviets once who quickly abandoned the program after their N1 rocket failed time and again.

But this time they are trying to directly aim at matching or overmatching the F-22. And just like the N1, they may succeed in being superior to the Saturn V in some asspects (total thrust, payload to HEO).

But like you I don't see anyone being able to develop something that will outclass the F-22 anytime soon. However, my point was, because the F-22 is starting to become old. (Requiremnets were from the 80s, most of it's technology was developed in the 90s)

Other nations with smaller budgets and much less technical know how, may come relatively close, simply because what was extremely cutting edge then has become somewhat common now.

The F-22 will continue to be upgraded to keep it's edge however.

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 01 Feb 2016, 20:16
by zero-one
Corsair1963 wrote:

As I have said the F-3 doesn't currently exist! Nor, is it likely to do so in the foreseeable future (if ever)
.... :bang: :bang: :bang:


The F-35J will me the premier Japanese Stealth Fighter in the JASDF for decades to come..... :twisted:


Thank you for clarifying, so it looks like the X-2 is not a prototype for the F-3.

Looks like Japan's plans are to develop technologies on the X-2 to be applied to an F-3 prototype then to actually produce and F-3 fighter. Seems like 11 years is not much time to do that.

But if thats the case, then Japan may have a bigger budget commitment to the ATD-X project than I thought, given the fact that they developed a tech demo plane first. This could be interesting.

But like I said earlier, unlike the F-35 who's main requirement is A-G, the ATD-X program is aiming at a predominantly A-A platform.

We may see ATF like requirements such as super cruise and larger maneuvering envelopes that were not prioritized or absent on the JSF program

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 02 Feb 2016, 01:55
by charlielima223
Wait a second... I thought the ATD-X was a demonstrator for technologies not a direct prototype for a possible F-3 fighter aircraft for the JASDF. :?

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 02 Feb 2016, 03:06
by KamenRiderBlade
I think people need to get it through their head that the ATD-X is the equivalent to a US X-vehicle.

It's a Technology DEMONSTRATOR.

Whatever their final version manufacturing shall be is a WHOLE DIFFERENT issue.

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 02 Feb 2016, 06:19
by Corsair1963
The ATD-X is a Demonstrator. Which, is being built to develop future Advance Fighter Technologies. That will be incorporated into a Future 6th Generation Fighter. Likely with the US as a Partner...........IT IS NOT THE F-3 NOR WILL WE EVER SEE AN F-3. :roll:

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 02 Feb 2016, 07:50
by thepointblank
popcorn wrote:I'm curious as to the Japanese state-of-the-art in terms of engine tech. Everyone aside from the Americans seem to struggle in this area.

The Japanese do very well; IHI is a partner with GE in jet engines and gas turbines, and has the technical know how to design and build engines from scratch. Kawasaki is also involved in the joint international development and production of turbofan engines with Rolls Royce and Pratt & Whitney in aircraft engines and gas turbines as well.

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 02 Feb 2016, 09:16
by charlielima223
Corsair1963 wrote: NOR WILL WE EVER SEE AN F-3. :roll:


so why don't you believe Japan won't make an "F-3"?

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 02 Feb 2016, 11:00
by KamenRiderBlade
charlielima223 wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote: NOR WILL WE EVER SEE AN F-3. :roll:


so why don't you believe Japan won't make an "F-3"?

I don't think we'll see a "F-3" any time soon.

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 02 Feb 2016, 14:15
by durahawk
charlielima223 wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote: NOR WILL WE EVER SEE AN F-3. :roll:


so why don't you believe Japan won't make an "F-3"?


I asked him to provide information to support that assertion, still waiting on an answer. Many of the press reports seem to indicate otherwise. To be sure, the X-2 is not a prototype form of the F-3, but nothing that I have read so far to indicates that Japan has simply given up trying to bring the F-3 to fruition.
Bear in mind, however, that the X-2 is just a technology demonstrator, not a prototype of a new fighter jet. According to The Diplomat, it is 'a testbed platform for multiple technologies', including next-generation electronically scanned array radar, multi-dimensional thrust vectoring, an indigenous low-bypass turbofan engine and radar-absorbing composite materials. Production of an 'F-3' fighter will not begin until 2027, at the earliest. It is likely that this plane could turn out to be so expensive — a single F-3 could cost US$200 million or more — that Japan may never buy more than a handful.

http://www.lowyinterpreter.org/post/2016/02/02/Japans-last-chance-fighter-jet.aspx

Now, I suppose we can debate cynically whether or not the Japanese Aerospace industry has the salt to successfully pull off an indigenous 5th generation aircraft. Though since the F-2 cost 4x as much as a Block 50 F-16 per copy, excluding development costs, I don't doubt Japan has the gall to at least throw some serious cash at this in the name of nationalistic pride. Japan, after all, still owns the world's third largest economy.

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 12 Feb 2016, 20:20
by Fox1
It is a good thing that this aircraft is just a technology demonstrator, as it is far too small to be very useful as an air dominance fighter.

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 13 Feb 2016, 02:38
by zerion

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 14 Feb 2016, 10:04
by element1loop
Still trying to figure this thing out.

Looks like a trainer, but too big.

Can't see much room for internal weapons.

Huge tails with equally huge rudders ... with large flaps ... hmm

Massive elevator defections and thrust vector paddles but no nozzle to speak of.

But the main gear is the give away, semi-hefty trailing-link.

This appears to be a light twin for a carrier.

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 14 Feb 2016, 10:27
by gideonic
element1loop wrote:Still trying to figure this thing out.

Looks like a trainer, but too big.

Can't see much room for internal weapons.

Huge tails with equally huge rudders ... with large flaps ... hmm

Massive elevator defections and thrust vector paddles but no nozzle to speak of.

But the main gear is the give away, semi-hefty trailing-link.

This appears to be a light twin for a carrier.

You do realize it's a subscale (1/3) technology demonstrator? If the real F3 ever happens, it probably won't be all that similar.

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 14 Feb 2016, 10:40
by element1loop
It's an X plane. Nothing is final about it.

But I do see they're trying to disguise that it was built with a tail hook in mind.

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 15 Feb 2016, 06:24
by arian
If Lockheed is really aiding Japan in developing the X-2, I can't imagine them willingly doing so if they thought it was a potential competitor...?


Aren't most Japanese/Korean/Taiwanese projects developed with US help? Companies aren't always looking to sell their own products. Lockheed can also make money by getting a piece of KAI T-50, for example, especially if those planes and Lockheed's own planes aren't 100% competitors for the same markets. "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em" is a pretty common practice.

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 15 Feb 2016, 07:14
by Corsair1963
Japan is having a very hard time finding the resources to upgrade it's F-15J Fleet and buy some more F-35's. Let alone develop a 5th Generation Fighter on the scale of the F-22..... :doh:

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 23 Apr 2016, 20:58
by charlielima223
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ie-424499/

http://theaviationist.com/2016/04/22/ja ... st-flight/

Its like the F-22 had a baby...

Even if Japan doesn't make an F-3 or whatever; to simply show this level to tech and engineering should enable them to be larger partners in future military aircraft programs.

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 24 Apr 2016, 09:58
by thepointblank
charlielima223 wrote:Even if Japan doesn't make an F-3 or whatever; to simply show this level to tech and engineering should enable them to be larger partners in future military aircraft programs.

That's my gut feeling on the topic. The Japanese want to be a partner in developing future new fighters ever since the weapons export ban was lifted, and this is a demonstration to show that they do have the skills and know-how to put it all together. Even if the Japanese turn out to be the lead contractor, having more buyers would help drive down unit costs, and if the Japanese want more capability in their weapon systems while keeping costs reasonable, searching for international partners is the only solution.

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 24 Apr 2016, 15:01
by str
element1loop wrote:It's an X plane. Nothing is final about it.

But I do see they're trying to disguise that it was built with a tail hook in mind.


F-22A and F-35A, among many other land based aircraft that will never see a carrier, have tail hooks.

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 24 Apr 2016, 20:20
by sferrin
str wrote:
element1loop wrote:It's an X plane. Nothing is final about it.

But I do see they're trying to disguise that it was built with a tail hook in mind.


F-22A and F-35A, among many other land based aircraft that will never see a carrier, have tail hooks.


So do/did the F-105,F-106 F-111, F-5, F-15, F-16, and probably others.

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 25 Apr 2016, 09:09
by Corsair1963
durahawk wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:The technologies gained with the development of the ATD-X/X-2 will likely be used in a future "6th Generation Fighter". Likely with a partner (i.e. US) not as a 5th Generation Air Superiority Fighter for the JASDF.


Source?
The X-2 is a technology demonstrator and may not represent a prototype F-3 in ultimate form, but most articles seem to indicate Japan has a very specific objective in mind with building and flying this aircraft. From the article I posted earlier:
As I reported previously (See: “Japan’s 5th Generation Stealth Fighter to Make Maiden Flight in Early 2016”), the X-2 program’s goal is to eventually produce Japan’s first indigenously-designed fifth-generation air superiority fighter, designated F-3, with serial production slated to begin in 2027, although various delays in the development of the X-2 prototype including issues with the engine control software –scheduled to be fully developed by 2018– make a later date more likely.



Laughable the Japanese already have a Stealth Fighter. It's called the F-35A and they're setting up production for it as we speak.....In addition they hardly have the resources to build an adequate number of them for the JASDF. Let alone start a Fighter Program on the scale of the F-22! Which, by the way was so expensive the USAF capped production at just 187 examples. The Japanese well know they can't afford or even match something on the scale of the F-22 and/or F-35.

Hence the development of the ATD-X (X-2) as a Demonstrator. Which, they hope will bare some advances in fighter technology. That Japan can use it to join with a Future Multi-National Fighter Program. (likely with US)


The X-2 is not a full scale "Prototype" but a third scale "Demonstrator". :doh:



QUOTE:

Mitsubishi F-3
Advanced Technology Demonstrator – X (ATD-X)
Shinshin (“Spirit”)

On 22 April 2016 Japan became the fourth country to test-fly its own stealth jet. The X2 Advanced Technology Demonstrator, called, took off from Nagoya airport in Aichi Prefecture at 8:47 am Friday morning. , flew about 15 kilometers and touched down at the Air Self-Defense Force’s Gifu Air Field at 9:13 am. The demonstrator will undergo a further two years of testing before a decision is made on whether to develop a homegrown next-generation stealth fighter. The X2 engines are made by IHI Corp. and its fuselage is developed by Mitsubishi Heavy Industries. The demonstrator is also equipped with locally developed stealth technology.

The “Advanced Technology Demonstrator – X” (ATD-X) prototype under development by Mitsubishi Heavy Industries is not officially planned for production. The Japanese Ministry of Defence will used the ATD-X as a technology demonstrator and research prototype to determine whether domestic advanced technologies for a 5th generation fighter aircraft are viable.

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 25 Apr 2016, 09:38
by Corsair1963
BTW- It is estimated that to develop a 5th Generation Fighter along the lines of the F-3 would cost between $40-50 Billion. Yet, that likely is a low estimate considering the vast cost over runs of Japanese Fighter Programs in the recent past. As the F-2 alone cost ~$120 Million each making it the second most expensive fighter behind the USAF F-22!!!


Plus, remember Japan would have a far greater Mountain to climb than the US.


For example what engines would power the F-3???

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 11 May 2016, 22:05
by tmofarrvl
Corsair1963 wrote:For example what engines would power the F-3???


There is a separate, parallel effort underway to develop the engine:
http://m.aviationweek.com/awindefense/j ... ter-engine

If you have access to the article, and read through it, it appears that the Japanese are attempting to recreate the F119. Same stage count, similar OPR, similar thrust class.

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 12 May 2016, 10:10
by Corsair1963
tmofarrvl wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:For example what engines would power the F-3???


There is a separate, parallel effort underway to develop the engine:
http://m.aviationweek.com/awindefense/j ... ter-engine

If you have access to the article, and read through it, it appears that the Japanese are attempting to recreate the F119. Same stage count, similar OPR, similar thrust class.


Would take a good decade or two for Japan to develop such an engine. Plus, like the F-3 where would Japan get the massive funding for it....... :shock:

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 31 May 2016, 00:23
by Fox1
The best thing that could happen for Japan at this point would be for the F-22 to go back into production and for Congress to lift the ban on selling it abroad. That seems to be one angle Congress is looking at when they recently started the effort to look into the feasibility of restarting the F-22 line. By allowing countries like Japan, Australia, Israel and perhaps South Korea to purchase these aircraft (and contribute to the cost to restart production), it would make it much cheaper for the U.S. to purchase additional F-22s. It would also be a bargain for such foreign partners as well, as even sharing in the development costs would be far less expensive than trying to build a high end, indigenous 5th Generation design from scratch.

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 31 May 2016, 07:02
by Corsair1963
Fox1 wrote:The best thing that could happen for Japan at this point would be for the F-22 to go back into production and for Congress to lift the ban on selling it abroad. That seems to be one angle Congress is looking at when they recently started the effort to look into the feasibility of restarting the F-22 line. By allowing countries like Japan, Australia, Israel and perhaps South Korea to purchase these aircraft (and contribute to the cost to restart production), it would make it much cheaper for the U.S. to purchase additional F-22s. It would also be a bargain for such foreign partners as well, as even sharing in the development costs would be far less expensive than trying to build a high end, indigenous 5th Generation design from scratch.


You need to cut back on the Medication as it will be your undoing! First, there is no plan to put the F-22 back into production for nations like Japan, Australia, or whoever! To believe otherwise is pure Fantasy! Besides all of the aforementioned countries have all already committed to the F-35.

As for the best option for Japan. The current plan likely fits the bill.....Which, is to build F-35's under license and develop the ATD-X as a "Demonstrator". Then to take the technology gained from the latter and incorporate it into a future 6th Generation Fighter. Likely with a partner like the US.

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 31 May 2016, 08:37
by Fox1
Corsair1963 wrote:
Fox1 wrote:The best thing that could happen for Japan at this point would be for the F-22 to go back into production and for Congress to lift the ban on selling it abroad. That seems to be one angle Congress is looking at when they recently started the effort to look into the feasibility of restarting the F-22 line. By allowing countries like Japan, Australia, Israel and perhaps South Korea to purchase these aircraft (and contribute to the cost to restart production), it would make it much cheaper for the U.S. to purchase additional F-22s. It would also be a bargain for such foreign partners as well, as even sharing in the development costs would be far less expensive than trying to build a high end, indigenous 5th Generation design from scratch.


You need to cut back on the Medication as it will be your undoing! First, there is no plan to put the F-22 back into production for nations like Japan, Australia, or whoever! To believe otherwise is pure Fantasy! Besides all of the aforementioned countries have all already committed to the F-35.

As for the best option for Japan. The current plan likely fits the bill.....Which, is to build F-35's under license and develop the ATD-X as a "Demonstrator". Then to take the technology gained from the latter and incorporate it into a future 6th Generation Fighter. Likely with a partner like the US.


Why are you trying to insult me? I haven't done anything to you. Nor have I said anything that isn't being discussed openly at much higher levels.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/04/21/politics/f22-raptor-congress/

So there Mr. Smarty Pants. Go tell the House Armed Services Committee to up their medication. They are the ones directing the air force to study the feasibility of bringing the F-22 back into production, along with the possibility of foreign sales and investment. That isn't to say it is definitely going to happen. But influential people are certainly looking in that direction. Even outgoing Air Force Chief of Staff (General Mark Welsh) is saying restarting F-22 production is not a "wild idea" and that they are looking at it closely. A wild idea would be somewhat akin to fantasy, would it not?

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/usaf-warms-to-f-22-raptor-revival-proposal-425794/

There is too much smoke here for there not to be some fire. When you combine the talk coming from Congress and the Air Force leadership, it quickly becomes apparent this is a very real possibility. Add in the fact that the Air Force has been recently placing 6th Generation ambitions on the back burner and it only adds fuel to the flame. I think it is becoming apparent that we are just now only beginning to scratch the surface of 5th Generation technologies and capabilities. True 6th Generation technologies are decades away and totally out of reach. Those who think we can have a 6th Generation fighter program in development any time soon are the ones stuck in fantasy land. An upgraded F-22 will keep us well ahead of any potential enemies far into the future, by which time hopefully 6th Generation technology can be successfully developed. And no matter how expensive restarting the F-22 line might be, it will be only a small fraction of the cost of trying to develop 6th Generation vaporware from scratch when even 5th Gen technology hasn't become fully mature to date.

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 31 May 2016, 09:11
by mrigdon
The only people who are talking about this aren't actually doing anything about it.

General Welsh is on his way out the door. On July 1st, nothing he says counts for anything in the Air Force. Do you think they can ramp up F-22 production by June 30th?

If the House Armed Services Committee was really serious about foreign sales, they wouldn't talk to the Air Force. The Air Force can't do a d*** thing about it. Oh, you know who could? Members of the House Armed Services Committee who have never bothered to offer legislation up on the House floor to overturn the Obey Amendment.

As far as foreign sales go, the HASC might as well be asking the Air Force if they can fart rainbows.

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 28 Mar 2017, 16:56
by zerion
Japan and UK to Collaborate on Advanced Stealth Fighter Jet

Japan’s Acquisition, Technology, and Logistics Agency and the United Kingdom’s Ministry of Defense have concluded an agreement to explore options for co-developing an advanced fighter jet, according to a March 16 press release by the Japanese Ministry of Defense.

The agreement stipulates that both countries will exchange information about advanced aviation technology and also conduct a joint study on the feasibility of co-developing a new fighter aircraft in the coming years.

The press release further notes that Japan will continue to explore fighter jet co-development options with other countries. “Regarding the possibility of international joint development on fighter aircraft in the future, we will continue to exchange views with other countries,” the MoD statement reads...

http://thediplomat.com/2017/03/japan-an ... ghter-jet/

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 28 Mar 2017, 18:55
by uclass
zerion wrote:Japan and UK to Collaborate on Advanced Stealth Fighter Jet

Japan’s Acquisition, Technology, and Logistics Agency and the United Kingdom’s Ministry of Defense have concluded an agreement to explore options for co-developing an advanced fighter jet, according to a March 16 press release by the Japanese Ministry of Defense.

The agreement stipulates that both countries will exchange information about advanced aviation technology and also conduct a joint study on the feasibility of co-developing a new fighter aircraft in the coming years.

The press release further notes that Japan will continue to explore fighter jet co-development options with other countries. “Regarding the possibility of international joint development on fighter aircraft in the future, we will continue to exchange views with other countries,” the MoD statement reads...

http://thediplomat.com/2017/03/japan-an ... ghter-jet/

Well that's bigger news than I expected. :mrgreen:


just me?

Image
Image

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 29 Mar 2017, 05:43
by Corsair1963
zerion wrote:Japan and UK to Collaborate on Advanced Stealth Fighter Jet

Japan’s Acquisition, Technology, and Logistics Agency and the United Kingdom’s Ministry of Defense have concluded an agreement to explore options for co-developing an advanced fighter jet, according to a March 16 press release by the Japanese Ministry of Defense.

The agreement stipulates that both countries will exchange information about advanced aviation technology and also conduct a joint study on the feasibility of co-developing a new fighter aircraft in the coming years.

The press release further notes that Japan will continue to explore fighter jet co-development options with other countries. “Regarding the possibility of international joint development on fighter aircraft in the future, we will continue to exchange views with other countries,” the MoD statement reads...

http://thediplomat.com/2017/03/japan-an ... ghter-jet/


Just talk nothing more nothing less..... :|

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 29 Mar 2017, 08:30
by gideonic
zerion wrote:Japan and UK to Collaborate on Advanced Stealth Fighter Jet

Japan’s Acquisition, Technology, and Logistics Agency and the United Kingdom’s Ministry of Defense have concluded an agreement to explore options for co-developing an advanced fighter jet, according to a March 16 press release by the Japanese Ministry of Defense.

The agreement stipulates that both countries will exchange information about advanced aviation technology and also conduct a joint study on the feasibility of co-developing a new fighter aircraft in the coming years.

The press release further notes that Japan will continue to explore fighter jet co-development options with other countries. “Regarding the possibility of international joint development on fighter aircraft in the future, we will continue to exchange views with other countries,” the MoD statement reads...

http://thediplomat.com/2017/03/japan-an ... ghter-jet/


Interesting, though yeah, so far it's just talk :? In the short term the JNAAM project also looks promising. Marrying an evolved AAM-4 AESA seeker with the METEOR body and fitting it all in the F-35 weapons bay seems good, if they get the costs under control. Especially for future arsenal-planes and such: https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/details ... an-emerge/

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 29 Mar 2017, 13:12
by uclass
gideonic wrote:
Interesting, though yeah, so far it's just talk :? In the short term the JNAAM project also looks promising. Marrying an evolved AAM-4 AESA seeker with the METEOR body and fitting it all in the F-35 weapons bay seems good, if they get the costs under control. Especially for future arsenal-planes and such: https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/details ... an-emerge/

Seems to be quite a defence relationship building up. The F-35 is all well and good but it'd be nice to build some indigenous stealth technology as well.

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 19 May 2017, 21:33
by maro.kyo
Apart from ATD-X/X-2 program, Japan was already conducting researches for their future fighter development since the 2012 regarding the next gen fighter, probably a top notch 5th gen aside f-35 if it really does realize. (Which I see a lot of doubts about it)

Important thing is, these R&D programs are all independent from X-2 and has different budgetary outline, timeline and plans. Ofc, X-2 along with P-1 or C-2 is an outstanding test-bed for the results which will show up when the next gen fighter tech R&D program ends in 2019.

Anyways, the R&D compartments are :

f-3 1..png


f-3 2..png

the engine and the TVC

which they aim to develop an operational product till 2030 with thrust of 15 tons, with a diameter of 1m.
Japan got tech transfers for F110-PW-129 in exchange for the composite integral wing and fighter AESA technology. They also claim that their XF5 developed by 1998 was already above the level of F110-GE-129 or F-100-PW-220.(u knw, they r quite old) It would be a great challenge but I don't find it to be impossible.

f-3 3..png

the radar

f-3 21.jpg


this thing will work -ofc- as a sensor and a ecm antenna, but also as an esm and communications antenna. Thus its going to be broadband, covering bandwidths from C band to Ku band

continued...

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 30 Nov 2017, 01:50
by zerion
Long article about X-2 testing best read there.

Japan Refines Design For Indigenous Future Fighter

http://aviationweek.com/defense/japan-r ... re-fighter

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 30 Nov 2017, 04:12
by Corsair1963
I wish some would get over the fact that the X-2 (formerly ATD-X) is not the F-3 and never will be..... :doh:


Honestly, don't understand what's so hard to understand. :bang: The X-2 is a "Demonstrator" and any technologies gained from the program. Maybe incorporated into a future 6th Generation Fighter. Which, likely will include a partner or partners!

Japan already has a 5th Generation Stealth Fighter. It's called the F-35A and it's being built by Mitsubishi Heavy Industries in Nagoya, Japan. :wink:

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 30 Nov 2017, 06:22
by neptune
Corsair1963 wrote:.... "Demonstrator" and any technologies gained from the program. Maybe incorporated into a future 6th Generation Fighter. .. :wink:


....and many other nations industries will wish to be included in the 6th Gen, as well (ala F-35). Perhaps the Japanese will develop a 500 lb. GE J-85 (A-37) "parody"!
:wink:

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 30 Nov 2017, 17:59
by mixelflick
Epic failure and waste of $ for the Japanes to be going this route.

As others have noted, Japan already has a 5th gen fighter (and they're producing licensed copies). Did the F-2 fiasco not teach them? Nothing they're doing isn't already being done/planned for the F-35 program. And good luck to our Japanese friends coming up with a design that sells for around $80 million!

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 30 Nov 2017, 18:22
by botsing
mixelflick wrote:Epic failure and waste of $ for the Japanes to be going this route.

As others have noted, Japan already has a 5th gen fighter (and they're producing licensed copies). Did the F-2 fiasco not teach them? Nothing they're doing isn't already being done/planned for the F-35 program. And good luck to our Japanese friends coming up with a design that sells for around $80 million!

Maybe they do not wish to develop a complete next generation airplane, but only technology that can be incorporated in future designs?

If they can sell any technology that comes out of this project to next generation airplane manufacturers and their customers it might actually be profitable.

It is even possible that the spinoff of this research alone will be profitable enough to keep it going. For example: in The Netherlands it was calculated that every euro invested in space technology paid itself back about 2.7 times, now did you ever hear of any Dutch space shuttles?

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 01 Dec 2017, 00:29
by nutshell
mixelflick wrote:Epic failure and waste of $ for the Japanes to be going this route.

As others have noted, Japan already has a 5th gen fighter (and they're producing licensed copies). Did the F-2 fiasco not teach them? Nothing they're doing isn't already being done/planned for the F-35 program. And good luck to our Japanese friends coming up with a design that sells for around $80 million!


It's all about acquiring knowledge and the japs are really good at it.

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 01 Dec 2017, 03:36
by white_lightning35
nutshell wrote:
mixelflick wrote:Epic failure and waste of $ for the Japanes to be going this route.

As others have noted, Japan already has a 5th gen fighter (and they're producing licensed copies). Did the F-2 fiasco not teach them? Nothing they're doing isn't already being done/planned for the F-35 program. And good luck to our Japanese friends coming up with a design that sells for around $80 million!


It's all about acquiring knowledge and the japs are really good at it.


Correct. The Japancakes aren't looking to build an equivalent to the f-35, because you can't. It just won't be possible to build a fighter of the f-35's capabilities, much less build one at a comparable price, without having 9 countries and three branches of the US military behind it.

I do wonder what the long game is, though. Surely not to make money off a new project? One would think that the f-35 would be bought by those who could. It could be to gain experience, but for what? To build a better next-gen design? The way I see it is that there are two reasons for making a new design. To sell, and to increase defense capabilities. I don't see how the Japancakes could make a profit, so what about the other option? If the f-35 isn't good enough for A-A work, perhaps they think that their new project will be a good substitution for the next US 6th gen?

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 01 Dec 2017, 07:57
by linkomart
botsing wrote:
It is even possible that the spinoff of this research alone will be profitable enough to keep it going. For example: in The Netherlands it was calculated that every euro invested in space technology paid itself back about 2.7 times, now did you ever hear of any Dutch space shuttles?


Well, Google gives this....
https://goo.gl/images/rHcKRj

Seriously though, I totally agree with your statement, the payback in technology is several times more than the investment. When Sweden inversted in the Gripen program, the spinoff from the radar development lead to a 10 year hype in mobile phone development, paying back all of the investment. The fact that the business vanished later on is another story. The radar development is still pretty good on the other hand.
Anyway, I guess it is the same for Japan. Even if they don't build a new fighter engine, the technology can be used in other projects, civil engines, stationary turbines, turbochargers etc. Stealth materials can be used in everything from mobile phone base stations to wind turbine blades etc.

I only wish they could throw some money this way...

my 5 cent

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 01 Dec 2017, 11:08
by neptune
https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2017/ ... iEoZolFycw

Japanese firms said behind schedule in joining F-35A production

JIJI
Sep 14, 2017

Japanese production of the F-35A stealth fighter remains stuck on the tarmac, a recent survey by Japan’s Board of Audit shows. The Air Self-Defense Force plans to adopt the cutting-edge fighter jet, but nothing is happening due to several delays in the process, leading the audit board to conclude that the effects of Japanese corporate participation in F-35A production in maintaining and strengthening the country’s defense production and technology base have yet to be fully seen, according to the survey, released Wednesday. The F-35 stealth fighter was developed jointly by nine countries, including the United States and Britain, while Lockheed Martin of the U.S. is in charge of designing and production.

The Defense Ministry decided to procure the F-35 under the U.S. government’s Foreign Military Sales program on condition that Japanese companies are allowed to join in production and repairs;

- Mitsubishi Heavy Industries Ltd. was picked for final assembly and checkups
- IHI Corp. for engine parts production
- Mitsubishi Electric Corp. for radar parts production

The three were set to conclude subcontracts with foreign firms partnered with the U.S. government. In the initial plan, the three companies were supposed to join production of F-35s to be delivered to Japan in fiscal 2017 under the fiscal 2013 contract.

MHI moved ahead based on the schedule, but IHI and Mitsubishi Electric had not signed parts production subcontracts as of the end of fiscal 2016. IHI fell behind due to a delay in the supply of materials from Pratt & Whitney of the U.S., an original contractor. In addition, after the U.S. government raised information security requirements, IHI took time overhauling its production system. Mitsubishi Electric failed to meet the schedule partly because of a delay in Lockheed’s orders to Northrop Grumman, another original contractor.

Two F-35s contracted in fiscal 2013 do not have parts from IHI and Mitsubishi Electric. Their parts also may not be used for four F-35 aircraft contracted in fiscal 2014 for delivery in fiscal 2018, sources said. The board of audit said that checks by the Defense Ministry’s Acquisition, Technology and Logistics Agency on the Japanese subcontractors’ manufacturing processes are insufficient, urging the agency to coordinate with the U.S. government to ensure that items required for F-35 production under the FMS program will be supplied quickly. An official of the ministry said, “We sincerely take the board’s advice and will continue efforts to ensure appropriate procurement.”
:)

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 13 Apr 2019, 12:50
by zero-one
News dated February 2019
https://thediplomat.com/2019/02/japan-t ... r-project/

The Japanese Ministry of Defense (MoD) confirmed that it has ruled out the development or local production of existing foreign-designed fighter jets to replace its fleet of F-2 multirole fighter aircraft, a Mitsubishi license-produced variant of Lockheed Martin’s F-16, by the 2030s, according to a MoD source.

The source said that the development and production of Japan’s new F-3 stealth fighter jet will be led by the country’s military aircraft industry with the possibility of collaboration with external partners including BAE Systems, Lockheed Martin, Boeing, and Northrop Grumman, Jane’s reports on February 4.


So the F-35 which is an existing foreign designed fighter will not be a candidate to replace the F-2. Instead they will focus on the ATD-X program which still looks like its still in the works.

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 13 Apr 2019, 14:34
by mixelflick
Given what they're going to sink into this, they'd be much wiser in using that $ to acquire more F-35's. Have they not learned their lesson on the F-2? They wound up with a marginally more capable F-16, for what... over $100 million an airframe?

Sometimes, you just need to swallow your national pride and buy what makes sense. To my mind, buying upgraded F-35's (with perhaps new, more powerful engine etc.) is going to be the best bang for the buck.

If they're really adamant about doing something themselves, do what the Israeli's do: Build superior avionics/sensors/weapons systems for use on the F-35. This not only would be cheaper, but after modifying their own jets they'd have a worldwide market to sell upgrades to what, 9 different countries and counting?

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 13 Apr 2019, 14:50
by madrat
ATD-X is on a superficial level similar in shape to an F-15. Maybe Boeing should work with them to formulate a design that could be leveraged for an F-15SE option. Two F100's clearly puts them into a weight-class well above F-35. The Boeing option could even leverage F119 or ADVENT-level technology if they build engine-bay evolution into it.

F-2A is not marginally better than F-16, it's what Block 40+ should have been. The airframe can carry significantly better warloads and is capable of heavier fuel tanks due to stronger attachment points and clearance.

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 13 Apr 2019, 15:21
by mair
No one, as of yet, other than US based weapons manufacturers, have been able to reliably produce stealth planes which are virtually invisible to radar and thermal detection. Not the Chinese with their J-31(details are sketchy but open source intel indicates several flaws), while the Russians have basically admitted that they have a ways to go to perfect the Su-57 pak fa stealth fighter. According to a newsreel I saw a while back(don’t remember the link) the Japaneese government is considering bringing in ‘ foreign experts’ to assist in certain vital components of the X-2 . Not surprising, the aircraft skin coating alone of a stealth plane is made of a special, very expensive paint that shields it from most radar and AWACS systems .That technology is highly classified, but about a decade ago there were reports that the F-35 had problems ‘working ‘ in the rain, implying that said paint was a vital component of the plane.

The smart option for the Japanese is to reasonably counter any realistic threat, aka China and for that the F-35 with strong AWACS and ground air defences are sufficient, for now.

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 13 Apr 2019, 17:10
by zero-one
mixelflick wrote:If they're really adamant about doing something themselves, do what the Israeli's do: Build superior avionics/sensors/weapons systems for use on the F-35. This not only would be cheaper, but after modifying their own jets they'd have a worldwide market to sell upgrades to what, 9 different countries and counting?


Going the Israeli way would be in similar nature to what they did with the F-2. And of course they would also need the US to approve the modifications. Japan wants to be recognized as a country in the same class as China but right now they're more on par with Korea. Personally I consider S.Korea as a top tier country, so no offense to Koreans here, point is, they want to fly something that they designed and developed.

Also we can't simply buy more F-35s to do everything. It is a strike fighter with a very robust air to air capability. its emphasis is on strike. IIRC it is 60% a Strike aircraft and 40% a Fighter aircraft. So assigning it to a pure Air defense role as a replacement for your F-15Js which are dedicated air to air squadrons means you are paying for a 60% capability that you will not use.

Look at it this way, the F-22 is said to be the 2nd best strike aircraft behind the F-35. What if they just kept buying F-22s and assigning them to dedicated Strike squadrons and Wild Weasel Squadrons when the F-35 was in danger of being axed.
Imagine F-22s that are used purely as strike aircraft with air crews training for nothing else except doping bombs. Thats what putting an F-35 to a purely A-A squadron will look like.

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 13 Apr 2019, 19:17
by marsavian
Your percentages are arbitrary and don't really equate to effectiveness. The F-35A can do everything a F-22A can do in an air-air role except supercruise. So F-35 maneuverability and post stall capability might be a little less but it's not tens of per cent less plus it has thorough all aspect IR sensors (DAS) which are enhanced at the front (EOTS). To really go beyond what the F-35A is capable of really means range but the Israelis are working on F-35 CFT/EFT carriage to effect that and no doubt PCA is the final answer to more stealth range.

So that only leaves indigenous modern fighter capability for the main raison d'etre of this new proposed Japanese fighter which will ultimately mean whatever technology they can cobble together at the price they want to spend. Don't expect anything earth shattering from the efforts as they will still rely on the US for their main topline fighters going forward. However as a performance guide this fighter will need to ultimately replace the later F-15MJ whose history and specification is outlined here ...

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/ ... jets-52167

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 13 Apr 2019, 21:15
by white_lightning35
mixelflick wrote:Given what they're going to sink into this, they'd be much wiser in using that $ to acquire more F-35's. Have they not learned their lesson on the F-2? They wound up with a marginally more capable F-16, for what... over $100 million an airframe?

Sometimes, you just need to swallow your national pride and buy what makes sense. To my mind, buying upgraded F-35's (with perhaps new, more powerful engine etc.) is going to be the best bang for the buck.

If they're really adamant about doing something themselves, do what the Israeli's do: Build superior avionics/sensors/weapons systems for use on the F-35. This not only would be cheaper, but after modifying their own jets they'd have a worldwide market to sell upgrades to what, 9 different countries and counting?


I think for some reason people on here are still not getting the concept of indigenous know-how and jobs programs. It doesn't matter if it costs more than the f-35 and is less capable. That is not the primary concern. In Japan's case this has nothing to do with "national pride", but instead, in their eyes, industrial long-term pragmatism.

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 13 Apr 2019, 23:02
by mair
white_lightning35 wrote:That is not the primary concern. In Japan's case this has nothing to do with "national pride", but instead, in their eyes, industrial long-term pragmatism.


No. This isn’t about building a business jet and promoting self sufficiency in local japanese industry, this is about national security. The objective is about meeting security and defense needs, economic considerations such as job creation are a secondary priority.

If the Chinese J 31 were able to outperform and overpower the Japanese X2 and X3, for instance than the demands of local Japanese industry be damned, they NEED a fighter that has capability first and foremost. Ofc they will continue to engage in vigorous R and D to enhance their own fighter’s abilities, but mass production would not make sense until strategic capability has been achieved to at least be on par with their rivals.

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 14 Apr 2019, 10:18
by zero-one
marsavian wrote:Your percentages are arbitrary and don't really equate to effectiveness.


I understand that, what I'm saying is you're buying a burger with a side of fries and you're just eating the fries. Yes, I know they are extra large fries and are more than enough for what you need. But what if you can just buy fries. The Japanese think they can make their own extra large side of fries. Hey it might cost more and might not be as good but its theirs

marsavian wrote:The F-35A can do everything a F-22A can do in an air-air role except supercruise.


The F-35 is the most capable air dominance fighter ever behind the F-22. But having said that, there are things the F-22 can do that Japan or other countries may want as well.

1. Super Cruising at 60,000 feet with 6 BVR missiles makes you almost invulnerable specially if you're a stealth fighter.
2. Carrying 9x in internal bays
3. Supersonic maneuverability which is also useful in a BVR fight. This was a primary requirement for the ATF program.

There are certain luxuries the F-22 offers in A-A that the F-35 just can't do because it was made primarily for strike.
The fighter pilot podcast said it perfectly.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITCerewkIQE

We were designed for a different mission set like SEAD/DEAD. Where the Raptor was designed solely for air dominance we were designed for a more multi role platform.


If you were given a choice for what to bring in an A-A mission, which one would you choose between the F-22 and F-35. I think most people would choose the F-22. But since it's no longer in production and is banned for export, you have to go with the F-35. I'm not saying its a bad choice but if you had a choice, you'd go with the Raptor on that fight.

Well, the Japanese feel like they have a choice. They can make their own Raptor, maybe even a little better since it will be developed nearly 15 years after the 1st F-22 became operational.

Japan's XF-9 engine has max rated thrust of 33,000 lbs in full AB and TVC nozles that deflect 20 degrees in the entire circumference. Slap 2 of those in a 40,000 pound air-frame and you got your own pseudo Raptor.

Will it be expensive? Sure....but this is Japan, richer than any European country in case we forgot.
The UK, France, Russia and even Turkey are developing their own fighters, why not them.

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 14 Apr 2019, 11:48
by milosh
mixelflick wrote:Given what they're going to sink into this, they'd be much wiser in using that $ to acquire more F-35's. Have they not learned their lesson on the F-2? They wound up with a marginally more capable F-16, for what... over $100 million an airframe?


Yeap but nice part of 100 million stayed in Japan, which is point of domestic fighter production. As things look now chance of war with Russia or China is much smaller then in 1980s when Japan start F-2 program. So domestic fighter today is even more logical, you invest money in your industry and in future you can export it, I am pretty sure Japan fighter would be interesting for foreigners.

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 14 Apr 2019, 12:03
by marsavian
zero-one wrote:Super Cruising at 60,000 feet with 6 BVR missiles makes you almost invulnerable specially if you're a stealth fighter.


Super cruising at high altitude will give you a noticeable IR profile something IRSTs will spot in the cloudless cold so you may have kinematic advantages up so high and fast but you will trade in some IR stealth for the privilege.

zero-one wrote:If you were given a choice for what to bring in an A-A mission, which one would you choose between the F-22 and F-35 ? I think most people would choose the F-22. But since it's no longer in production and is banned for export, you have to go with the F-35. I'm not saying its a bad choice but if you had a choice, you'd go with the Raptor on that fight.


For fighting each other I would pick the F-35 because of its IR sensors and laser because if their Stealth/EW cancels each other out that could be the difference between getting an AAM targeting solution or not. However for the pure interceptor role which is the main requirement here I agree F-22 is best suited.

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 14 Apr 2019, 13:29
by madrat
Production will never be large enough to get it down anywhere close to $100 million unless it's the size of an F-5. I don't think they would be looking at any less than $350 million a unit for a domestic F-35 class fighter. They could maybe get it closer to $200 million if they start off with what they know from F-15J production and forget all aspect stealth. They could even find a partner with a US partner to speed up airframe development, but skinning and engines will require domestic development. More or less aiming for an F-22 equality could even be as high as $500 million apiece.

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 14 Apr 2019, 15:39
by zero-one
marsavian wrote:Super cruising at high altitude will give you a noticeable IR profile something IRSTs will spot in the cloudless cold so you may have kinematic advantages up so high and fast but you will trade in some IR stealth for the privilege.


We don't know how effective that counter tactic would be. This is one of the things Raptor pilots brag about. And Typhoon pilots say they are the only ones who can hang with the Raptor High and fast. If it was easy to counter using IRST, then super cruise wouldn't be a capability sought after by everyone.

zero-one wrote:For fighting each other I would pick the F-35


I'd still go with the Raptor. Remember VLO doesn't just make it difficult for Radar but also for IRST and Passive EWS. And in Stealth vs Stealth, detection and engagement ranges will be reduced for sure. And we have F-22 and F-35 pilots saying flat out the Raptor is better for close range engagements. DAS or No.

I'm gona look like an F-35 hater here, but I love that plane. I just don't think its better than the Raptor, specifically for A-A. Its better for everything else. Japan is used to having the best A-A in the world. They operated F-15Js when the Eagle was still king of the sky. Now they're relegated to the F-35, as good as it is, it's not king of the sky and everybody has em. They want to have the best.

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 14 Apr 2019, 15:48
by milosh
Those were proposals:
http://images.china.cn/attachement/jpg/ ... 991d0d.jpg

http://tokyoexpress.info/wp-content/upl ... wamoto.jpg

http://livedoor.blogimg.jp/zap2/imgs/6/4/64fa2e57.jpg

Last one look like was selected. First one is typical LM, second one is combination of Su-57 and YF-23, and last one is LM design but with some mods primarily horizontals and side missile pod instead side bay.

http://livedoor.blogimg.jp/corez18c24-m ... f2ffbc.jpg

Wing AESA probable L-band.

So Japs took ideas from others, airframe similar to F-22 (proven design), sensors from F-35 and Su-57.

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 14 Apr 2019, 16:31
by fidgetspinner
milosh wrote:Those were proposals:
http://images.china.cn/attachement/jpg/ ... 991d0d.jpg

http://tokyoexpress.info/wp-content/upl ... wamoto.jpg

http://livedoor.blogimg.jp/zap2/imgs/6/4/64fa2e57.jpg

Last one look like was selected. First one is typical LM, second one is combination of Su-57 and YF-23, and last one is LM design but with some mods primarily horizontals and side missile pod instead side bay.

http://livedoor.blogimg.jp/corez18c24-m ... f2ffbc.jpg

Wing AESA probable L-band.

So Japs took ideas from others, airframe similar to F-22 (proven design), sensors from F-35 and Su-57.




Do you happen to have by any chance more images of Japans radar layout for the aircraft like the probable L-band example?

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 14 Apr 2019, 21:26
by knowan
Probably IFF antenna again, not radar.

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 15 Apr 2019, 01:23
by Corsair1963
milosh wrote:
mixelflick wrote:Given what they're going to sink into this, they'd be much wiser in using that $ to acquire more F-35's. Have they not learned their lesson on the F-2? They wound up with a marginally more capable F-16, for what... over $100 million an airframe?


Yeap but nice part of 100 million stayed in Japan, which is point of domestic fighter production. As things look now chance of war with Russia or China is much smaller then in 1980s when Japan start F-2 program. So domestic fighter today is even more logical, you invest money in your industry and in future you can export it, I am pretty sure Japan fighter would be interesting for foreigners.


Honestly, this is getting old. As Japan isn't going to design and develop a Domestic Fighter Program. What it will do is join with a Partner or Partners to jointly develop a 6th Generation Fighter sometime in the next decade. Which, is not to say the final design couldn't be built in Japan. Yet, it won't be an indigenous program...

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 15 Apr 2019, 07:15
by zero-one
Corsair1963 wrote:Honestly, this is getting old. As Japan isn't going to design and develop a Domestic Fighter Program.


Read back a little bit friend

zero-one wrote:News dated February 2019
https://thediplomat.com/2019/02/japan-t ... r-project/

The Japanese Ministry of Defense (MoD) confirmed that it has ruled out the development or local production of existing foreign-designed fighter jets to replace its fleet of F-2 multirole fighter aircraft, a Mitsubishi license-produced variant of Lockheed Martin’s F-16, by the 2030s, according to a MoD source.

The source said that the development and production of Japan’s new F-3 stealth fighter jet will be led by the country’s military aircraft industry with the possibility of collaboration with external partners including BAE Systems, Lockheed Martin, Boeing, and Northrop Grumman, Jane’s reports on February 4.


So the F-35 which is an existing foreign designed fighter will not be a candidate to replace the F-2. Instead they will focus on the ATD-X program which still looks like its still in the works.


Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 15 Apr 2019, 08:12
by Corsair1963
zero-one wrote:
So the F-35 which is an existing foreign designed fighter will not be a candidate to replace the F-2. Instead they will focus on the ATD-X program which still looks like its still in the works.




I never said the F-35 would be a candidate to replace the F-2. I said Japan would develop a future 6th Generation Fighter with a partner or partners.

Honestly, don't know why some have such a hard time understanding that??? :?

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 15 Apr 2019, 08:20
by zero-one
What you said was Japan "Will not develop a domestic fighter" and will simply join with partners to collaborate on a 6th gen platform.

Japan's statement is different. They want to develop a domestic fighter with just a possibility of inviting partners to join them.

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 15 Apr 2019, 08:27
by Corsair1963
zero-one wrote:What you said was Japan "Will not develop a domestic fighter" and will simply join with partners to collaborate on a 6th gen platform.

Japan's statement is different. They want to develop a domestic fighter with just a possibility of inviting partners to join them.




Japan won't lead such a program. That is why I stated it "will not develop a domestic fighter program". Which, doesn't mean it won't continue with the ATD-X. As a matter of fact it needs to do the later. Otherwise, it would have nothing to bring to the table. (technology wise)

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 15 Apr 2019, 08:46
by zero-one
I doubt that, Japan is low key, partly because they could not export weapons and have 0 combat experience since WW2.

But they achieved some pretty remarkable things.
-J/FPS-3 1st Ground bassed AESA
-J/APG-1 was the First AESA on a fighter,
-AAM-4B First AESA on an operational missile which no body else has by the way.
-Their XF-9 engine which has a rated max thrust of 33,000 lbs will be one of the most powerful fighter engines ever when they finish it.

Personally I put their military aerospace tech on par with the UK's if not a little higher since they are richer than the UK on GDP terms

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 15 Apr 2019, 09:14
by Corsair1963
zero-one wrote:I doubt that, Japan is low key, partly because they could not export weapons and have 0 combat experience since WW2.

But they achieved some pretty remarkable things.
-J/FPS-3 1st Ground bassed AESA
-J/APG-1 was the First AESA on a fighter,
-AAM-4B First AESA on an operational missile which no body else has by the way.
-Their XF-9 engine which has a rated max thrust of 33,000 lbs will be one of the most powerful fighter engines ever when they finish it.

Personally I put their military aerospace tech on par with the UK's if not a little higher since they are richer than the UK on GDP terms



Japan has a capable aerospace industry. Yet, most on the civilian not the military side. Only fighter that it has built in the last 70 years was the F-2. Which, was heavily based on the US F-16. Even then they had considerable assistance! (from Lockheed Martin) Plus, it almost "broke the bank" in the process!

As a matter of fact one of the reasons why the ATD-X / X-2 was developed as a "Demonstrator". Was because Japan learned it didn't have much of the technology needed to develop the proposed F-3 alone. In addition to attempt to do so would have been prohibitively expensive!

Now fast forward to today and nothing has change......

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 15 Apr 2019, 09:29
by weasel1962
zero-one wrote:Personally I put their military aerospace tech on par with the UK's if not a little higher since they are richer than the UK on GDP terms


I thought the below report by the Society of Japanese aerospace companies is quite useful to understand their capabilities.
http://www.sjac.or.jp/common/pdf/sjac_g ... -2019E.pdf

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 15 Apr 2019, 09:56
by Corsair1963
While, Japan has the skills to eventually develop the technology for a future fighter. It would take decades to develop and billions if not trillions to do so. While, the current Defense Budget is already pushed to the limit.....

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 15 Apr 2019, 11:22
by hornetfinn
knowan wrote:Probably IFF antenna again, not radar.


Probably. This is how it's done in F-35 and seems like Su-57 will do also. People often assume that AESA antenna automatically means radar but it can be pretty much any RF system. Such an antenna could also be used for low frequency ESM or even for long range communications.

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 15 Apr 2019, 11:40
by zero-one
Times have changed,
India and Korea have developed successful lightweight fighters despite having less money and experience producing fighters,

At least the Japanese had experience developing a successful Maritime Strike fighter. 1st in the world with AESA and armed with AESA equiped AAM-4B
You could argue that for some time it had capabilities that surpassed everyone else's, perhaps the best Strike Fighter of the 90s.

We have no problems believing the UK can build their Tempest, despite not being able to build their own supersonic fighter outside of joint ventures since the BAE Lighting in the 50s. Japan has the same experience with the F-2 and a bigger economy than the UK. and unlike the tempest, the ATD-X actually flew, So why all this doubt if they can.

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 15 Apr 2019, 11:48
by marsavian
Typhoon was a direct evolution of the BAE EAP prototype which flew.

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 15 Apr 2019, 11:55
by hornetfinn
I don't think anybody is really doubting if Japan can do it when it comes to technology or skills. What I'm doubting is if their budget will allow developing such a fighter without affecting other areas too much. I also doubt if they should do it beyond a technology demonstrator and research item. I also have my doubts about developing Tempest, but we will see.

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 16 Apr 2019, 01:30
by Corsair1963
zero-one wrote:Times have changed,
India and Korea have developed successful lightweight fighters despite having less money and experience producing fighters,

At least the Japanese had experience developing a successful Maritime Strike fighter. 1st in the world with AESA and armed with AESA equiped AAM-4B
You could argue that for some time it had capabilities that surpassed everyone else's, perhaps the best Strike Fighter of the 90s.

We have no problems believing the UK can build their Tempest, despite not being able to build their own supersonic fighter outside of joint ventures since the BAE Lighting in the 50s. Japan has the same experience with the F-2 and a bigger economy than the UK. and unlike the tempest, the ATD-X actually flew, So why all this doubt if they can.


Your missing the point. If, Japan wanted to spend a Trillion Dollars and take a couple of decades to solo develop a fighter. It is capable of doing so........Yet, from all available information it is not.

Which, is why it will join with a partner or partners to do so.

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 16 Apr 2019, 03:29
by weasel1962
F-35 R&DTE cost is ~$60b. F-22 was $35b. Typhoon was ~Euro 20b. Gripen ~$13b. KF-X $8b.

R&D costs are also amortised over a decade. That means roughly $1b to $3b a year for a decent program. Well within Japan's affordability. However, decisions normally take into account aerospace industry revenue generation (see link provided earlier), that's a big ratio for Japan.

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 16 Apr 2019, 04:21
by Corsair1963
weasel1962 wrote:F-35 R&DTE cost is ~$60b. F-22 was $35b. Typhoon was ~Euro 20b. Gripen ~$13b. KF-X $8b.

R&D costs are also amortised over a decade. That means roughly $1b to $3b a year for a decent program. Well within Japan's affordability. However, decisions normally take into account aerospace industry revenue generation (see link provided earlier), that's a big ratio for Japan.



I should have said tens of "Billions" not Trillions. Nonetheless, my point was clearly an exorbitant amount... :roll:

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 16 Apr 2019, 07:44
by zero-one
Corsair1963 wrote:Your missing the point. If, Japan wanted to spend a Trillion Dollars and take a couple of decades to solo develop a fighter. It is capable of doing so........Yet, from all available information it is not.

Which, is why it will join with a partner or partners to do so.


Why do you keep insisting that. It is the exact opposite of what they are saying
https://thediplomat.com/2019/02/japan-t ... r-project/

The source said that the development and production of Japan’s new F-3 stealth fighter jet will be led by the country’s military aircraft industry with the possibility of collaboration with external partners


They have the money and they want to spend it along with years of development to Solo develop a fighter.
In fact collaboration is just a possibility for them not the priority and joining others is not even on the table.

You can join them, but they won't join you. Thats what all available information tells us, not the other way around

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 05 May 2019, 09:14
by mair
zero-one wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:Your missing the point. If, Japan wanted to spend a Trillion Dollars and take a couple of decades to solo develop a fighter. It is capable of doing so........Yet, from all available information it is not.

Which, is why it will join with a partner or partners to do so.


Why do you keep insisting that. It is the exact opposite of what they are saying
https://thediplomat.com/2019/02/japan-t ... r-project/

The source said that the development and production of Japan’s new F-3 stealth fighter jet will be led by the country’s military aircraft industry with the possibility of collaboration with external partners


They have the money and they want to spend it along with years of development to Solo develop a fighter.
In fact collaboration is just a possibility for them not the priority and joining others is not even on the table.

You can join them, but they won't join you. Thats what all available information tells us, not the other way around


Dude the fact of the matter is that as a result of WW2 sanctions, Japan just doesn’t have anything like the experience developing modern fighters that it’s western allies do. 5th gen stealth fighters were the end result of a learning curve that ranged from the SR71 blackbird, the F-117 to the B-2 and took decades of R and D to hone and perfect.

No ones doubting Japan will get there eventually but the fact of the matter is that no nation other than the US has truly obtained a demonstrably ‘stealthy’ 5th gen fighter.

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 05 May 2019, 15:44
by madrat
I have always looked at ATD-X being too similar to F-15 on a superficial level to believe Japan won't utilize what they know from building F-15J and F-2A to formulate a J-20 competitor. They already have experience with FCS development, composites, radar, and everything else they need to build something.

After they analyze F-35A there is some changes I bet will be made to ATD-X concept. My guesses:

1. The intakes will be more like F-35 on how the top extends forward at the lateral tips, creating a sort of inverse LERX.
2. The engines will remain close together, but they will have routing for airflow over outboard internal bays.
3. There will be side by side bays rather than a single large bay center-line.
4. The nose cross-section will be more pronounced laterally versus the current Pinocchio shape.
5. The vertical tails will get shorter.
6. The infrared homing missiles will be rail-mounted with articulating bays that allow the missiles to be internalized or on an externalized position that minimizes drag not unlike F-22A and J-20.
7. The engine exhausts get redesigned for minimal RCS and thermal signatures while nixing the paddles.
8. There's a retractable refueling receptacle.

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 05 May 2019, 18:12
by quicksilver
madrat wrote:I have always looked at ATD-X being too similar to F-15 on a superficial level to believe Japan won't utilize what they know from building F-15J and F-2A to formulate a J-20 competitor. They already have experience with FCS development, composites, radar, and everything else they need to build something.

After they analyze F-35A there is some changes I bet will be made to ATD-X concept. My guesses:

1. The intakes will be more like F-35 on how the top extends forward at the lateral tips, creating a sort of inverse LERX.
2. The engines will remain close together, but they will have routing for airflow over outboard internal bays.
3. There will be side by side bays rather than a single large bay center-line.
4. The nose cross-section will be more pronounced laterally versus the current Pinocchio shape.
5. The vertical tails will get shorter.
6. The infrared homing missiles will be rail-mounted with articulating bays that allow the missiles to be internalized or on an externalized position that minimizes drag not unlike F-22A and J-20.
7. The engine exhausts get redesigned for minimal RCS and thermal signatures while nixing the paddles.
8. There's a retractable refueling receptacle.


It’s a technology demonstrator, not a prototype...

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 05 May 2019, 18:25
by zero-one
mair wrote:Dude the fact of the matter is that as a result of WW2 sanctions, Japan just doesn’t have anything like the experience developing modern fighters that it’s western allies do. 5th gen stealth fighters were the end result of a learning curve that ranged from the SR71 blackbird, the F-117 to the B-2 and took decades of R and D to hone and perfect.


They don't, but China was able to do it. Why not Japan. My problem is this. very few seems to doubt that the UK can get the Tempest going but there is so much doubt on Japan getting the F-3 off the ground? Why?

What I'm saying is, lets wait and see what the news actually says. Right now, it says that Japan wants to spearhead the development of their own Air dominance fighter. So lets not chip in with all this, they can't do it, they'll just partner with someone else non sense. The articles being posted are saying the exact opposite of that

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 06 May 2019, 13:33
by mair
zero-one wrote:
They don't, but China was able to do it. Why not Japan. My problem is this. very few seems to doubt that the UK can get the Tempest going but there is so much doubt on Japan getting the F-3 off the ground? Why?

What I'm saying is, lets wait and see what the news actually says. Right now, it says that Japan wants to spearhead the development of their own Air dominance fighter. So lets not chip in with all this, they can't do it, they'll just partner with someone else non sense. The articles being posted are saying the exact opposite of that


China does NOT, i repeat does not, have a demonstrably stealthy 5th gen fighter with a radar cross section anywhere near as small as comparable US fighters. The J 20 has many defects according to all reliable open source intel. If it didn’t , by now they would have tried something with Taiwan, which they won’t and you can guess why.

And again I’m not doubting that Japan can get there eventually, just that it would take considerable time unless they had outside help.

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 06 May 2019, 16:00
by zero-one
Your measure of success is an F-22 or F-35. So yes, getting their own F-22 will cost them billions and decades just as you said.
But thats not what they're gunning for. What if they just want a faster more agile F-35 with less stealth, less networking capability and far far less A-G.

The F-35 is said to be 40% Air to air and 60% air to ground optimized, lets say they'll focus on just the 40%. Is that still way beyond their reach. they'll end up with an air frame that has a 0.005 square meter RCS, super cruise and super maneuverability, less powerful sensors, less networking range and bandwith, no EOTS, no 2k bomb capability the less multi ship sensor fusion.

Basically are you saying they can't match China and the UK?