Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Military aircraft - Post cold war aircraft, including for example B-2, Gripen, F-18E/F Super Hornet, Rafale, and Typhoon.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post15 Apr 2019, 09:56

While, Japan has the skills to eventually develop the technology for a future fighter. It would take decades to develop and billions if not trillions to do so. While, the current Defense Budget is already pushed to the limit.....
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hornetfinn

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Unread post15 Apr 2019, 11:22

knowan wrote:Probably IFF antenna again, not radar.


Probably. This is how it's done in F-35 and seems like Su-57 will do also. People often assume that AESA antenna automatically means radar but it can be pretty much any RF system. Such an antenna could also be used for low frequency ESM or even for long range communications.
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zero-one

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Unread post15 Apr 2019, 11:40

Times have changed,
India and Korea have developed successful lightweight fighters despite having less money and experience producing fighters,

At least the Japanese had experience developing a successful Maritime Strike fighter. 1st in the world with AESA and armed with AESA equiped AAM-4B
You could argue that for some time it had capabilities that surpassed everyone else's, perhaps the best Strike Fighter of the 90s.

We have no problems believing the UK can build their Tempest, despite not being able to build their own supersonic fighter outside of joint ventures since the BAE Lighting in the 50s. Japan has the same experience with the F-2 and a bigger economy than the UK. and unlike the tempest, the ATD-X actually flew, So why all this doubt if they can.
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marsavian

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Unread post15 Apr 2019, 11:48

Typhoon was a direct evolution of the BAE EAP prototype which flew.
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hornetfinn

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Unread post15 Apr 2019, 11:55

I don't think anybody is really doubting if Japan can do it when it comes to technology or skills. What I'm doubting is if their budget will allow developing such a fighter without affecting other areas too much. I also doubt if they should do it beyond a technology demonstrator and research item. I also have my doubts about developing Tempest, but we will see.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post16 Apr 2019, 01:30

zero-one wrote:Times have changed,
India and Korea have developed successful lightweight fighters despite having less money and experience producing fighters,

At least the Japanese had experience developing a successful Maritime Strike fighter. 1st in the world with AESA and armed with AESA equiped AAM-4B
You could argue that for some time it had capabilities that surpassed everyone else's, perhaps the best Strike Fighter of the 90s.

We have no problems believing the UK can build their Tempest, despite not being able to build their own supersonic fighter outside of joint ventures since the BAE Lighting in the 50s. Japan has the same experience with the F-2 and a bigger economy than the UK. and unlike the tempest, the ATD-X actually flew, So why all this doubt if they can.


Your missing the point. If, Japan wanted to spend a Trillion Dollars and take a couple of decades to solo develop a fighter. It is capable of doing so........Yet, from all available information it is not.

Which, is why it will join with a partner or partners to do so.
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weasel1962

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Unread post16 Apr 2019, 03:29

F-35 R&DTE cost is ~$60b. F-22 was $35b. Typhoon was ~Euro 20b. Gripen ~$13b. KF-X $8b.

R&D costs are also amortised over a decade. That means roughly $1b to $3b a year for a decent program. Well within Japan's affordability. However, decisions normally take into account aerospace industry revenue generation (see link provided earlier), that's a big ratio for Japan.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post16 Apr 2019, 04:21

weasel1962 wrote:F-35 R&DTE cost is ~$60b. F-22 was $35b. Typhoon was ~Euro 20b. Gripen ~$13b. KF-X $8b.

R&D costs are also amortised over a decade. That means roughly $1b to $3b a year for a decent program. Well within Japan's affordability. However, decisions normally take into account aerospace industry revenue generation (see link provided earlier), that's a big ratio for Japan.



I should have said tens of "Billions" not Trillions. Nonetheless, my point was clearly an exorbitant amount... :roll:
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zero-one

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Unread post16 Apr 2019, 07:44

Corsair1963 wrote:Your missing the point. If, Japan wanted to spend a Trillion Dollars and take a couple of decades to solo develop a fighter. It is capable of doing so........Yet, from all available information it is not.

Which, is why it will join with a partner or partners to do so.


Why do you keep insisting that. It is the exact opposite of what they are saying
https://thediplomat.com/2019/02/japan-t ... r-project/

The source said that the development and production of Japan’s new F-3 stealth fighter jet will be led by the country’s military aircraft industry with the possibility of collaboration with external partners


They have the money and they want to spend it along with years of development to Solo develop a fighter.
In fact collaboration is just a possibility for them not the priority and joining others is not even on the table.

You can join them, but they won't join you. Thats what all available information tells us, not the other way around
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mair

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Unread post05 May 2019, 09:14

zero-one wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:Your missing the point. If, Japan wanted to spend a Trillion Dollars and take a couple of decades to solo develop a fighter. It is capable of doing so........Yet, from all available information it is not.

Which, is why it will join with a partner or partners to do so.


Why do you keep insisting that. It is the exact opposite of what they are saying
https://thediplomat.com/2019/02/japan-t ... r-project/

The source said that the development and production of Japan’s new F-3 stealth fighter jet will be led by the country’s military aircraft industry with the possibility of collaboration with external partners


They have the money and they want to spend it along with years of development to Solo develop a fighter.
In fact collaboration is just a possibility for them not the priority and joining others is not even on the table.

You can join them, but they won't join you. Thats what all available information tells us, not the other way around


Dude the fact of the matter is that as a result of WW2 sanctions, Japan just doesn’t have anything like the experience developing modern fighters that it’s western allies do. 5th gen stealth fighters were the end result of a learning curve that ranged from the SR71 blackbird, the F-117 to the B-2 and took decades of R and D to hone and perfect.

No ones doubting Japan will get there eventually but the fact of the matter is that no nation other than the US has truly obtained a demonstrably ‘stealthy’ 5th gen fighter.
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madrat

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Unread post05 May 2019, 15:44

I have always looked at ATD-X being too similar to F-15 on a superficial level to believe Japan won't utilize what they know from building F-15J and F-2A to formulate a J-20 competitor. They already have experience with FCS development, composites, radar, and everything else they need to build something.

After they analyze F-35A there is some changes I bet will be made to ATD-X concept. My guesses:

1. The intakes will be more like F-35 on how the top extends forward at the lateral tips, creating a sort of inverse LERX.
2. The engines will remain close together, but they will have routing for airflow over outboard internal bays.
3. There will be side by side bays rather than a single large bay center-line.
4. The nose cross-section will be more pronounced laterally versus the current Pinocchio shape.
5. The vertical tails will get shorter.
6. The infrared homing missiles will be rail-mounted with articulating bays that allow the missiles to be internalized or on an externalized position that minimizes drag not unlike F-22A and J-20.
7. The engine exhausts get redesigned for minimal RCS and thermal signatures while nixing the paddles.
8. There's a retractable refueling receptacle.
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quicksilver

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Unread post05 May 2019, 18:12

madrat wrote:I have always looked at ATD-X being too similar to F-15 on a superficial level to believe Japan won't utilize what they know from building F-15J and F-2A to formulate a J-20 competitor. They already have experience with FCS development, composites, radar, and everything else they need to build something.

After they analyze F-35A there is some changes I bet will be made to ATD-X concept. My guesses:

1. The intakes will be more like F-35 on how the top extends forward at the lateral tips, creating a sort of inverse LERX.
2. The engines will remain close together, but they will have routing for airflow over outboard internal bays.
3. There will be side by side bays rather than a single large bay center-line.
4. The nose cross-section will be more pronounced laterally versus the current Pinocchio shape.
5. The vertical tails will get shorter.
6. The infrared homing missiles will be rail-mounted with articulating bays that allow the missiles to be internalized or on an externalized position that minimizes drag not unlike F-22A and J-20.
7. The engine exhausts get redesigned for minimal RCS and thermal signatures while nixing the paddles.
8. There's a retractable refueling receptacle.


It’s a technology demonstrator, not a prototype...
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zero-one

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Unread post05 May 2019, 18:25

mair wrote:Dude the fact of the matter is that as a result of WW2 sanctions, Japan just doesn’t have anything like the experience developing modern fighters that it’s western allies do. 5th gen stealth fighters were the end result of a learning curve that ranged from the SR71 blackbird, the F-117 to the B-2 and took decades of R and D to hone and perfect.


They don't, but China was able to do it. Why not Japan. My problem is this. very few seems to doubt that the UK can get the Tempest going but there is so much doubt on Japan getting the F-3 off the ground? Why?

What I'm saying is, lets wait and see what the news actually says. Right now, it says that Japan wants to spearhead the development of their own Air dominance fighter. So lets not chip in with all this, they can't do it, they'll just partner with someone else non sense. The articles being posted are saying the exact opposite of that
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Unread post06 May 2019, 13:33

zero-one wrote:
They don't, but China was able to do it. Why not Japan. My problem is this. very few seems to doubt that the UK can get the Tempest going but there is so much doubt on Japan getting the F-3 off the ground? Why?

What I'm saying is, lets wait and see what the news actually says. Right now, it says that Japan wants to spearhead the development of their own Air dominance fighter. So lets not chip in with all this, they can't do it, they'll just partner with someone else non sense. The articles being posted are saying the exact opposite of that


China does NOT, i repeat does not, have a demonstrably stealthy 5th gen fighter with a radar cross section anywhere near as small as comparable US fighters. The J 20 has many defects according to all reliable open source intel. If it didn’t , by now they would have tried something with Taiwan, which they won’t and you can guess why.

And again I’m not doubting that Japan can get there eventually, just that it would take considerable time unless they had outside help.
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Unread post06 May 2019, 16:00

Your measure of success is an F-22 or F-35. So yes, getting their own F-22 will cost them billions and decades just as you said.
But thats not what they're gunning for. What if they just want a faster more agile F-35 with less stealth, less networking capability and far far less A-G.

The F-35 is said to be 40% Air to air and 60% air to ground optimized, lets say they'll focus on just the 40%. Is that still way beyond their reach. they'll end up with an air frame that has a 0.005 square meter RCS, super cruise and super maneuverability, less powerful sensors, less networking range and bandwith, no EOTS, no 2k bomb capability the less multi ship sensor fusion.

Basically are you saying they can't match China and the UK?
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