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Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 02 Feb 2016, 11:00
by KamenRiderBlade
charlielima223 wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote: NOR WILL WE EVER SEE AN F-3. :roll:


so why don't you believe Japan won't make an "F-3"?

I don't think we'll see a "F-3" any time soon.

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 02 Feb 2016, 14:15
by durahawk
charlielima223 wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote: NOR WILL WE EVER SEE AN F-3. :roll:


so why don't you believe Japan won't make an "F-3"?


I asked him to provide information to support that assertion, still waiting on an answer. Many of the press reports seem to indicate otherwise. To be sure, the X-2 is not a prototype form of the F-3, but nothing that I have read so far to indicates that Japan has simply given up trying to bring the F-3 to fruition.
Bear in mind, however, that the X-2 is just a technology demonstrator, not a prototype of a new fighter jet. According to The Diplomat, it is 'a testbed platform for multiple technologies', including next-generation electronically scanned array radar, multi-dimensional thrust vectoring, an indigenous low-bypass turbofan engine and radar-absorbing composite materials. Production of an 'F-3' fighter will not begin until 2027, at the earliest. It is likely that this plane could turn out to be so expensive — a single F-3 could cost US$200 million or more — that Japan may never buy more than a handful.

http://www.lowyinterpreter.org/post/2016/02/02/Japans-last-chance-fighter-jet.aspx

Now, I suppose we can debate cynically whether or not the Japanese Aerospace industry has the salt to successfully pull off an indigenous 5th generation aircraft. Though since the F-2 cost 4x as much as a Block 50 F-16 per copy, excluding development costs, I don't doubt Japan has the gall to at least throw some serious cash at this in the name of nationalistic pride. Japan, after all, still owns the world's third largest economy.

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 12 Feb 2016, 20:20
by Fox1
It is a good thing that this aircraft is just a technology demonstrator, as it is far too small to be very useful as an air dominance fighter.

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 13 Feb 2016, 02:38
by zerion

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 14 Feb 2016, 10:04
by element1loop
Still trying to figure this thing out.

Looks like a trainer, but too big.

Can't see much room for internal weapons.

Huge tails with equally huge rudders ... with large flaps ... hmm

Massive elevator defections and thrust vector paddles but no nozzle to speak of.

But the main gear is the give away, semi-hefty trailing-link.

This appears to be a light twin for a carrier.

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 14 Feb 2016, 10:27
by gideonic
element1loop wrote:Still trying to figure this thing out.

Looks like a trainer, but too big.

Can't see much room for internal weapons.

Huge tails with equally huge rudders ... with large flaps ... hmm

Massive elevator defections and thrust vector paddles but no nozzle to speak of.

But the main gear is the give away, semi-hefty trailing-link.

This appears to be a light twin for a carrier.

You do realize it's a subscale (1/3) technology demonstrator? If the real F3 ever happens, it probably won't be all that similar.

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 14 Feb 2016, 10:40
by element1loop
It's an X plane. Nothing is final about it.

But I do see they're trying to disguise that it was built with a tail hook in mind.

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 15 Feb 2016, 06:24
by arian
If Lockheed is really aiding Japan in developing the X-2, I can't imagine them willingly doing so if they thought it was a potential competitor...?


Aren't most Japanese/Korean/Taiwanese projects developed with US help? Companies aren't always looking to sell their own products. Lockheed can also make money by getting a piece of KAI T-50, for example, especially if those planes and Lockheed's own planes aren't 100% competitors for the same markets. "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em" is a pretty common practice.

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 15 Feb 2016, 07:14
by Corsair1963
Japan is having a very hard time finding the resources to upgrade it's F-15J Fleet and buy some more F-35's. Let alone develop a 5th Generation Fighter on the scale of the F-22..... :doh:

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 23 Apr 2016, 20:58
by charlielima223
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ie-424499/

http://theaviationist.com/2016/04/22/ja ... st-flight/

Its like the F-22 had a baby...

Even if Japan doesn't make an F-3 or whatever; to simply show this level to tech and engineering should enable them to be larger partners in future military aircraft programs.

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 24 Apr 2016, 09:58
by thepointblank
charlielima223 wrote:Even if Japan doesn't make an F-3 or whatever; to simply show this level to tech and engineering should enable them to be larger partners in future military aircraft programs.

That's my gut feeling on the topic. The Japanese want to be a partner in developing future new fighters ever since the weapons export ban was lifted, and this is a demonstration to show that they do have the skills and know-how to put it all together. Even if the Japanese turn out to be the lead contractor, having more buyers would help drive down unit costs, and if the Japanese want more capability in their weapon systems while keeping costs reasonable, searching for international partners is the only solution.

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 24 Apr 2016, 15:01
by str
element1loop wrote:It's an X plane. Nothing is final about it.

But I do see they're trying to disguise that it was built with a tail hook in mind.


F-22A and F-35A, among many other land based aircraft that will never see a carrier, have tail hooks.

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 24 Apr 2016, 20:20
by sferrin
str wrote:
element1loop wrote:It's an X plane. Nothing is final about it.

But I do see they're trying to disguise that it was built with a tail hook in mind.


F-22A and F-35A, among many other land based aircraft that will never see a carrier, have tail hooks.


So do/did the F-105,F-106 F-111, F-5, F-15, F-16, and probably others.

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 25 Apr 2016, 09:09
by Corsair1963
durahawk wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:The technologies gained with the development of the ATD-X/X-2 will likely be used in a future "6th Generation Fighter". Likely with a partner (i.e. US) not as a 5th Generation Air Superiority Fighter for the JASDF.


Source?
The X-2 is a technology demonstrator and may not represent a prototype F-3 in ultimate form, but most articles seem to indicate Japan has a very specific objective in mind with building and flying this aircraft. From the article I posted earlier:
As I reported previously (See: “Japan’s 5th Generation Stealth Fighter to Make Maiden Flight in Early 2016”), the X-2 program’s goal is to eventually produce Japan’s first indigenously-designed fifth-generation air superiority fighter, designated F-3, with serial production slated to begin in 2027, although various delays in the development of the X-2 prototype including issues with the engine control software –scheduled to be fully developed by 2018– make a later date more likely.



Laughable the Japanese already have a Stealth Fighter. It's called the F-35A and they're setting up production for it as we speak.....In addition they hardly have the resources to build an adequate number of them for the JASDF. Let alone start a Fighter Program on the scale of the F-22! Which, by the way was so expensive the USAF capped production at just 187 examples. The Japanese well know they can't afford or even match something on the scale of the F-22 and/or F-35.

Hence the development of the ATD-X (X-2) as a Demonstrator. Which, they hope will bare some advances in fighter technology. That Japan can use it to join with a Future Multi-National Fighter Program. (likely with US)


The X-2 is not a full scale "Prototype" but a third scale "Demonstrator". :doh:



QUOTE:

Mitsubishi F-3
Advanced Technology Demonstrator – X (ATD-X)
Shinshin (“Spirit”)

On 22 April 2016 Japan became the fourth country to test-fly its own stealth jet. The X2 Advanced Technology Demonstrator, called, took off from Nagoya airport in Aichi Prefecture at 8:47 am Friday morning. , flew about 15 kilometers and touched down at the Air Self-Defense Force’s Gifu Air Field at 9:13 am. The demonstrator will undergo a further two years of testing before a decision is made on whether to develop a homegrown next-generation stealth fighter. The X2 engines are made by IHI Corp. and its fuselage is developed by Mitsubishi Heavy Industries. The demonstrator is also equipped with locally developed stealth technology.

The “Advanced Technology Demonstrator – X” (ATD-X) prototype under development by Mitsubishi Heavy Industries is not officially planned for production. The Japanese Ministry of Defence will used the ATD-X as a technology demonstrator and research prototype to determine whether domestic advanced technologies for a 5th generation fighter aircraft are viable.

Re: Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Unread postPosted: 25 Apr 2016, 09:38
by Corsair1963
BTW- It is estimated that to develop a 5th Generation Fighter along the lines of the F-3 would cost between $40-50 Billion. Yet, that likely is a low estimate considering the vast cost over runs of Japanese Fighter Programs in the recent past. As the F-2 alone cost ~$120 Million each making it the second most expensive fighter behind the USAF F-22!!!


Plus, remember Japan would have a far greater Mountain to climb than the US.


For example what engines would power the F-3???