Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Military aircraft - Post cold war aircraft, including for example B-2, Gripen, F-18E/F Super Hornet, Rafale, and Typhoon.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post06 Apr 2020, 08:11

weasel1962 wrote:
They have been developing their own engines for the past few years already. The testing of the demo engines are scheduled to have completed last month. Google XF-9 engine.

As to anyone who thinks Japan can't afford it... it has been budgeted.

https://asia.nikkei.com/Politics/Japan- ... on-new-jet



Japan’s Defense Budget and the 1% Limit

https://www.nippon.com/en/features/h001 ... limit.html


Now add the Coronavirus to that........
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weasel1962

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Unread post06 Apr 2020, 08:15

Japan is spending 0.924% of GDP for FY 20 (0.929% for FY 19). Real or self imposed limits, I'd leave it to others to determine.

Covid 19 impact on Japan
https://www.army-technology.com/comment ... ios-japan/

The F-3/F-X project will go ahead. That is a given.
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Unread post06 Apr 2020, 08:50

weasel1962 wrote:Japan is spending 0.924% of GDP for FY 20 (0.929% for FY 19). Real or self imposed limits, I'd leave it to others to determine.

Covid 19 impact on Japan
https://www.army-technology.com/comment ... ios-japan/

The F-3/F-X project will go ahead. That is a given.


Did you read your own source????

QUOTE:

The COVID-19 global pandemic threatens further contractions to Japan’s GDP, which was already on the downward slope prior to the crisis. Revised figures from the October-December quarter in 2019 shows an annualized 7.1% contraction after the unpopular sales tax hike and unexpected disasters.

The economy has not recovered and pressure from Covid-19 may cause further contractions which would be worsened by a prolonged epidemic. At present, there are high levels of uncertainty regarding defense spending forecast as Japan is still in the early stages of mitigating Covid-19. GlobalData presents three projections of possible defense budgets for Japan: Pre-Covid-19, GDP Percentage Status Quo and Austerity scenarios. These scenarios act as base trends, demonstrating the impact on spending as the Japanese government enacts policies to rejuvenate the economy.

In the midst of the pandemic on 27th March, the Diet approved a US$46.3 million defense budget planned for fiscal year (FY) 2020. Defense expenditure, along with other areas of expense, remains as planned. Japan stays committed to government spending as the economic downturn brings with it the possibility of recession. The impact of COVID-19 is largely dependent on the duration of its spread, particularly whether effects can be mitigated earlier or later. Long-term effects to the defense supply chain will inevitably delay production and government expenditure for 2021 may focus more on stimulating the economy to keep markets out of recession......................


For the imminent future, economic recovery in the wake of Covid-19 will be paramount. The Abe government’s strong commitment to raising defense spending in its term as incumbent government is most likely to continue in the wake of the pandemic, although the rate of increase may slow down. Major decreases will be unlikely in the current FY, as the Abe administration will continue to be at the helm of the government, where the next major election is due for October 2021. Despite the potential of huge disruptive impact of Covid-19, Japan is unlikely to drastically cut defense spending.
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Unread post06 Apr 2020, 08:52

Nonetheless, I believe the F-X will continue....Just not as a pure "solo" program. It will continue as a partner in a joint program.


That is just my personal opinion....guess we will just have to wait and see! :wink:
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weasel1962

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Unread post06 Apr 2020, 09:01

Yes, of course I read it. Objectively, it should be acknowledged that COVID 19 has an impact to budgets. I agree on that. Fact is fact.

Nevertheless, the thrust of the article remains at the end: "Despite the potential of huge disruptive impact of Covid-19, Japan is unlikely to drastically cut defense spending."

Japan has fully funded its F-X program from inception. There is no indication it will cut any spending for the program going forward. Any suggestion that they will do so, is not supported by official sources.
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Unread post06 Apr 2020, 09:35

:|
weasel1962 wrote:Yes, of course I read it. Objectively, it should be acknowledged that COVID 19 has an impact to budgets. I agree on that. Fact is fact.

Nevertheless, the thrust of the article remains at the end: "Despite the potential of huge disruptive impact of Covid-19, Japan is unlikely to drastically cut defense spending."

Japan has fully funded its F-X program from inception. There is no indication it will cut any spending for the program going forward. Any suggestion that they will do so, is not supported by official sources.


The jury is still very much out on the impact of Covid-19. While, it doesn't sound like it's going to be over anytime soon.

As I said before I do believe the F-X Program will move forward. It's just my "personal" opinion. That it won't be a Japanese lead program. That Japan instead will be a member of a larger Joint Program. Likely lead by the US...

Only time will tell.... :|
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Unread post06 Apr 2020, 09:37

Oh, let's not forget the last Japanese Fighter Program. The F-2 that was heavily based on the US F-16....Which, was extremely "expensive"....


I doubt many in Japan forgot about that....
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Unread post06 Apr 2020, 13:37

Like the Tempest, I don't see this happening...

The amount of $ and expertise required is enormous, and countries such as Japan are much better off just buying up-rated F-35's from the US. Look... they had to stop making F-35's in Japan as it is. And that's more or less giving them all the tools to do it! That, and its a good bet defense budgets will be shrinking vs. growing in the next 10 years.

As well, Japan's needs in a fighter are strikingly different vs. say, what the US has planned for PCA. The don't need something with absurd range. They're not planning on flying over mainland China, just defending themselves against China/North Korea. Yes, they'll need good radars, long range weapons and sensors but the F-35 already has them covered.

Their "stealth fighter" will be to the F-35 what their F-2 was to the F-16: Likely a marginal improvement but at astronomical cost. I'm all for indigenous know how, etc. but sometimes you just have to look in the mirror and admit other nations do this better.
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Unread post07 Apr 2020, 00:30

mixelflick wrote:Like the Tempest, I don't see this happening...

The amount of $ and expertise required is enormous, and countries such as Japan are much better off just buying up-rated F-35's from the US. Look... they had to stop making F-35's in Japan as it is. And that's more or less giving them all the tools to do it! That, and its a good bet defense budgets will be shrinking vs. growing in the next 10 years.

As well, Japan's needs in a fighter are strikingly different vs. say, what the US has planned for PCA. The don't need something with absurd range. They're not planning on flying over mainland China, just defending themselves against China/North Korea. Yes, they'll need good radars, long range weapons and sensors but the F-35 already has them covered.

Their "stealth fighter" will be to the F-35 what their F-2 was to the F-16: Likely a marginal improvement but at astronomical cost. I'm all for indigenous know how, etc. but sometimes you just have to look in the mirror and admit other nations do this better.


Japan reversed course and will now continue to build F-35A's. As for a future 6th Generation Fighter. Many benefits of a joint project like the F-35. In technology, work share, maintenance, etc. etc.

With far less risk and cost...
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Unread post07 Apr 2020, 00:35

The Japanese know full well what US industry would like. The price of some independence will always be high.
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Unread post07 Apr 2020, 02:02

weasel1962 wrote:The Japanese know full well what US industry would like. The price of some independence will always be high.


Clearly, Japan is willing to pay more. In order to get a share of the work and maybe access to certain "technology". Yet, not at any price...
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Unread post07 Apr 2020, 12:28

Corsair1963 wrote:
mixelflick wrote:Like the Tempest, I don't see this happening...

The amount of $ and expertise required is enormous, and countries such as Japan are much better off just buying up-rated F-35's from the US. Look... they had to stop making F-35's in Japan as it is. And that's more or less giving them all the tools to do it! That, and its a good bet defense budgets will be shrinking vs. growing in the next 10 years.

As well, Japan's needs in a fighter are strikingly different vs. say, what the US has planned for PCA. The don't need something with absurd range. They're not planning on flying over mainland China, just defending themselves against China/North Korea. Yes, they'll need good radars, long range weapons and sensors but the F-35 already has them covered.

Their "stealth fighter" will be to the F-35 what their F-2 was to the F-16: Likely a marginal improvement but at astronomical cost. I'm all for indigenous know how, etc. but sometimes you just have to look in the mirror and admit other nations do this better.


Japan reversed course and will now continue to build F-35A's. As for a future 6th Generation Fighter. Many benefits of a joint project like the F-35. In technology, work share, maintenance, etc. etc.

With far less risk and cost...


Interesting.

Why did they reverse course?
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weasel1962

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Unread post07 Apr 2020, 13:45

The original intent to close the FACO was the production cost was too high vs Ft Worth. They managed to reduce the production costs for the FACO instead.

Japan was not happy with the FACO because they didn't get anything other than assembly. No tech transfer. The FACO workshare didn't compensate sufficiently for the cost of setting up the plant, hence the original intent to just import. The F-35Bs will be built at Ft Worth.
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Unread post15 Jun 2020, 00:22

mixelflick wrote:Like the Tempest, I don't see this happening...

The amount of $ and expertise required is enormous, and countries such as Japan are much better off just buying up-rated F-35's from the US. Look... they had to stop making F-35's in Japan as it is. And that's more or less giving them all the tools to do it! That, and its a good bet defense budgets will be shrinking vs. growing in the next 10 years.

As well, Japan's needs in a fighter are strikingly different vs. say, what the US has planned for PCA. The don't need something with absurd range. They're not planning on flying over mainland China, just defending themselves against China/North Korea. Yes, they'll need good radars, long range weapons and sensors but the F-35 already has them covered.

Their "stealth fighter" will be to the F-35 what their F-2 was to the F-16: Likely a marginal improvement but at astronomical cost. I'm all for indigenous know how, etc. but sometimes you just have to look in the mirror and admit other nations do this better.


It's just way too simplified measuring everything with performance only. I would agree, that in most of the cases, someone who could buy F-35 is better off just buying the F-35 than trying something else but Japan doesn't fit into those "most of the cases". Those guys in UK and Japan are not some half-as*ed idiots that they've somehow magically ignored all the benefits of buying the F-35. The human resources created by FS-X program are slowly retiring without any replacement, just like what happened in Taiwan after F-CK-1. And no, you can't maintain that level of expertise by making ten other experimental aircraft because its a whole different ballpark to an actual fighter jet.

Also, the F-3 would have superior flight characteristics to the F-35, something they really wanted from the F-22. You see, Japan always wanted to buy the Raptor regardless of whether they can get the F-35 or not and that's for a reason. Now that they are making a decent engine they could probably achieve what they want as well. On top of that, unlike what you think, they need a fighter with quite a long range as well considering their main focus nowadays is defending their western isles, Senkaku among others. You're talking about them only defending the homeland but Japan's role as a strategic deterrent against China entering the Pacific is only getting bigger. Else they wouldn't be building aircraft carriers and ballistic missiles.

Most importantly, as a replacement for F-2 they need a fighter that could be equipped with their own ASM. F-2's primary role was a ship hunter after all, and there were no foreign armament integrated into F-35 apart from very few exceptions. UK is the only tier-1 partner and JSM is developed with heavy ties to Lockheed. ASM-3 has quite some advanced navigation technique built into it that the Japanese are developing a new MC to be able to use its full potential. Even integrating AAM-4 to F-15J needed J/ARG-1 to be developed. As if that's going to work with F-35.

In the end, what you expect as "marginally better" is just you're expectation and I suspect otherwise. It's going to be a fighter with quite a different character compared to F-35. F-35's probably going to have better SA and network capabilities though the F-3 wouldn't be far off. It's kinematic capabilities on the other hand would enable something else. I mean, Japan is still buying almost 150 F-35s, its not like they're spending all that money instead on making their own jet.

They've already spent around $ 2 billion developing the basic technology needed for their future fighter and it may well be that they came too far politically to stop as well. Talking about F-2, its well known that working under heavy American influence left quite a bitter taste for the Japanese folks, regardless of if the original FS-X development plan was realistic at all or not. I don't think they're gonna do it twice.
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Unread post15 Jun 2020, 04:06

Odds are the Japanese will buy additional F-35's short-term. While, joining one of the future US 6th Generation Fighter Programs long-term.....


"IMHO"
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