EF Typhoon, Enhanced Maneuverability

Military aircraft - Post cold war aircraft, including for example B-2, Gripen, F-18E/F Super Hornet, Rafale, and Typhoon.
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marsavian

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Unread post13 Nov 2018, 15:57

It has been mentioned in the Airbus Germany Tornado replacement context. I suspect any new German orders over the original tranche orders will have it along with an AESA as it is basically a German development modification. Once it's put on a production aircraft future export orders may contain it too.
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irt

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Unread post14 Nov 2018, 10:27

marsavian wrote:It has been mentioned in the Airbus Germany Tornado replacement context. I suspect any new German orders over the original tranche orders will have it along with an AESA as it is basically a German development modification. Once it's put on a production aircraft future export orders may contain it too.


Seems like the Germans ar ordering new build Typhoons to replace older tr1 planes. Will be interesting to se the specs of the new build ones.

https://twitter.com/WachterBDI/status/1 ... 9580304385
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mixelflick

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Unread post14 Nov 2018, 14:42

Dumb question...

With the stats clearly showing many more BVR engagements over the past 20 years, why would anyone choose instead to focus on enhanced maneuverability? Or has the Typhoon/Meteor reached the apex of its capabilities, and therefore "enhanced maneuverability" is the new selling point?

I would have thought ASRAAM plus what the Typhoon is already capable of as good enough WVR. At the very least, get an AESA in every bird. It's only going to extend Meteor's punch..
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Unread post14 Nov 2018, 15:12

The upgrade is very simple and has almost no drawbacks other than a few extra pounds. A LERX here, and small vane there, double digit improvement to lift and turn capability and triple digit improvement to loaded roll rate.
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marsavian

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Unread post14 Nov 2018, 17:17

One of the articles at the time did say that sustained transonic/supersonic turn energy retention took a slight hit. On the other hand subsonic turn rate increases by 15%, wing lift by 25% which helps asymmetric load handling, 50% AoA increase and a 100% roll increase at the higher AoA. Basically it closes any slow speed maneuverability gaps to its two close-coupled canard competitors, Rafale and Gripen, without moving the canard while retaining the very low transonic/supersonic drag of the long coupled canard. The Germans seem particularly keen at adopting it for new buys and mentioned it as well as a 15% thrust increase for the Tornado replacement bid. Such an aircraft would obviously be in with a good shout of being the best overall dogfighter in the world for clients that care about such matters, probably the ME countries would buy some more too with that new specification.
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mixelflick

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Unread post17 Nov 2018, 17:23

marsavian wrote:One of the articles at the time did say that sustained transonic/supersonic turn energy retention took a slight hit. On the other hand subsonic turn rate increases by 15%, wing lift by 25% which helps asymmetric load handling, 50% AoA increase and a 100% roll increase at the higher AoA. Basically it closes any slow speed maneuverability gaps to its two close-coupled canard competitors, Rafale and Gripen, without moving the canard while retaining the very low transonic/supersonic drag of the long coupled canard. The Germans seem particularly keen at adopting it for new buys and mentioned it as well as a 15% thrust increase for the Tornado replacement bid. Such an aircraft would obviously be in with a good shout of being the best overall dogfighter in the world for clients that care about such matters, probably the ME countries would buy some more too with that new specification.


That makes a lot of sense. Makes me wonder how Israel is going to deal with that. For so long, they had the maneuverability edge with the F-15 and 16. And sure, the F-35 is there now but it's not built specifically to dogfight, like Typhoon. They're just so enamored with the gun kill. I suppose the F-35 would just clean up BVR vs. any Typhoons, but again it seems so foreign the Israeli's no longer have the most maneuverable jets.

And yes, I know their pilots are head and shoulders better. Just wondering if they're considering a new super-rate machine. Their choices are limited though. Thrust vectoring F-15/16? These things don't exist. They can't get the F-22. They gave away the Lavi which became the J-10. I know buying Typhoons themselves would be out of the question. It's the dawn of a new day for them. The F-35 will have to wipe the skies clean of its adversaries. Speaks volumes they're buying more, they must be awful confident in its BVR prowess...
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marsavian

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Unread post17 Nov 2018, 20:44

Any ME countries that future Typhoons are sold to will be ones friendly to Israel like now such as Saudi Arabia and the other Gulf countries. It's not going to be sold to Iran or Syria which are their only real enemies now. Even with this AMK update F-35 will still have better AoA limits and handling. F-35s and F-15s is the steady future diet for Israel as they need stealth, payload and range to successfully defend themselves going forward not turn rate capability. Remember traditional enemies like Egypt now have F-16 and Rafale and it's all peaceful on their border.
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Unread post18 Nov 2018, 08:35

mixelflick wrote: And sure, the F-35 is there now but it's not built specifically to dogfight, like Typhoon. They're just so enamored with the gun kill. I suppose the F-35 would just clean up BVR vs. any Typhoons, but again it seems so foreign the Israeli's no longer have the most maneuverable jets.


I'm not sure what you mean by this? The last aircraft that was built "specifically just to dogfight" was the F-16A. During the 80s, aerodynamic sciences came to a point where you did not need to compromise between WVR and BVR combat emphasis.

You can design an aircraft that was good at both roles equally. Case and point, the F-22. It is hands down the best BVR and WVR platform ever built. No compromises.

If what you mean is that the JSF program did not pour most of their resources into WVR combat emphasis then I agree, however the required performance parameter for WVR combat prowess was still very steep. F-16 like E combined with F/A-18 like AoA.

There are only a handful aircraft types that can combine both those abilities
*F-22
*Flankers
*Su-57
*F-35

All other fighters have to pick one characteristic.

Its like they poured only 15% of their resources into the flight performance while other programs poured in 40 - 50 % into that. But because there were so much resources available for the JSF program, that 15% is still bigger than the 50% on other projects.
Last edited by zero-one on 19 Nov 2018, 07:35, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread post18 Nov 2018, 21:15

mixelflick wrote:
marsavian wrote:One of the articles at the time did say that sustained transonic/supersonic turn energy retention took a slight hit. On the other hand subsonic turn rate increases by 15%, wing lift by 25% which helps asymmetric load handling, 50% AoA increase and a 100% roll increase at the higher AoA. Basically it closes any slow speed maneuverability gaps to its two close-coupled canard competitors, Rafale and Gripen, without moving the canard while retaining the very low transonic/supersonic drag of the long coupled canard. The Germans seem particularly keen at adopting it for new buys and mentioned it as well as a 15% thrust increase for the Tornado replacement bid. Such an aircraft would obviously be in with a good shout of being the best overall dogfighter in the world for clients that care about such matters, probably the ME countries would buy some more too with that new specification.


That makes a lot of sense. Makes me wonder how Israel is going to deal with that. For so long, they had the maneuverability edge with the F-15 and 16. And sure, the F-35 is there now but it's not built specifically to dogfight, like Typhoon. They're just so enamored with the gun kill. I suppose the F-35 would just clean up BVR vs. any Typhoons, but again it seems so foreign the Israeli's no longer have the most maneuverable jets.

And yes, I know their pilots are head and shoulders better. Just wondering if they're considering a new super-rate machine. Their choices are limited though. Thrust vectoring F-15/16? These things don't exist. They can't get the F-22. They gave away the Lavi which became the J-10. I know buying Typhoons themselves would be out of the question. It's the dawn of a new day for them. The F-35 will have to wipe the skies clean of its adversaries. Speaks volumes they're buying more, they must be awful confident in its BVR prowess...


The Israelis aren't giving up anything in maneuverability, with the F-35. They weren't built to not dogfight. They were built to not have to dogfight. Huge distinction there.
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mixelflick

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Unread post19 Nov 2018, 15:32

OK, understand. Fair points all around...

I'll just be real happy once it's demonstrated that the F-35 doesn't have to dogfight or, failing that... it gets into a dogfight (say, with a Flanker) and wins. It would be a nice pie in the face to these people who feel the need to trash talk it all the time. And there's plenty of them.

Tell you what though... If I was Russia I'd be REAL upset right now. They lack the ability to mass produce stealth, so are left with a mix of various Flankers to defend themselves/deploy to various theaters. The US on the other hand will have thousands of F-35's that are basically invisible assassins flying around. Someone dropped the ball big time over there. In the old days, they'd be sent to Siberia (or worse).

The Soviet Union wouldn't have tolerated it. Russia has to. In all fairness though, who in Russia could develop and mass produce a stealth fighter? Sukhoi (presumably the best Russia has) tried, and largely failed. A few dozen (maybe) SU-57's will be fielded.

BTW, has NATO assigned a code name yet?
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zero-one

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Unread post19 Nov 2018, 16:22

Well I don't think it will require that. Of course that will surely shut up the naysayers. But there are a lot of fighters out there that don't have kills left and right but are highly respected in aviation circles. F-22, Su-27, Typhoon, heck even the Mig-29 is highly regarded in a dogfight even if it lost ALL OF THEM.

I think once the F-35 racks up kills, specifically WVR kills in DACT, has more air show exposure with more high AoA routines, all this "it can't dogfight" notion will fly out the window.

In fact its already dying down. Even in social media, when someone says the F-35 can't fight up close I'm surprised at the number of educated responses to counter.
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wrightwing

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Unread post19 Nov 2018, 19:23

zero-one wrote:Well I don't think it will require that. Of course that will surely shut up the naysayers. But there are a lot of fighters out there that don't have kills left and right but are highly respected in aviation circles. F-22, Su-27, Typhoon, heck even the Mig-29 is highly regarded in a dogfight even if it lost ALL OF THEM.

I think once the F-35 racks up kills, specifically WVR kills in DACT, has more air show exposure with more high AoA routines, all this "it can't dogfight" notion will fly out the window.

In fact its already dying down. Even in social media, when someone says the F-35 can't fight up close I'm surprised at the number of educated responses to counter.


A lot of F-35 kills in Red Flag, etc... are WVR kills. How many times do we need to read anecdotes from Dolby Hanche, about F-16s being unable to get away from F-35s, in WVR, or 4th gen jets having to fly clean, while F-35s carrying a GBU-12 are still beating them in WVR? The data shows the F-35 to be a lethal WVR aircraft. It's as if many posters here either failed to read the "Favorite F-35 Quotes" thread, or simply ignored it.
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Unread post26 Nov 2018, 21:38

I'm surprised no one has mentioned this but from what I've read everyone seems to think that the sole and primary purpose of the AMK was to increase maneuverability at lower speeds. I believe this assumption is wrong. From what I've read and understood the main purpose was to increase lift efficiency and maneuverability during carriage of heavy weapons like Storm Shadow. The capability should be delivered as part of the Phase 2 Enhancements. Once that has happened perhaps the AMK will get a closer look.
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charlielima223

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Unread post27 Nov 2018, 05:50

tempest2003 wrote:I'm surprised no one has mentioned this but from what I've read everyone seems to think that the sole and primary purpose of the AMK was to increase maneuverability at lower speeds. I believe this assumption is wrong. From what I've read and understood the main purpose was to increase lift efficiency and maneuverability during carriage of heavy weapons like Storm Shadow. The capability should be delivered as part of the Phase 2 Enhancements. Once that has happened perhaps the AMK will get a closer look.


Welcome to F-16.net!! Hope you're finding some good info here. I know I have!

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ng-414684/

Designed under the Eurofighter Enhanced Manoeuvrability programme, the Aerodynamic Modification Kit (AMK) includes additional fuselage strakes and root extensions, which increase the maximum lift created by the Typhoon’s wing by some 25%, Airbus says.

The increased lift produces “critical fighter capabilities” such as an increased turn rate, tighter turning radius and improved nose-pointing when flying at low speeds. AMK is designed to provide easier integration of air-to-surface weapons.
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“We saw angle-of-attack values around 45% greater than on the standard aircraft, and roll rates up to 100% higher, all leading to increased agility,” says Eurofighter project pilot Raffaele Beltrame. “The handling qualities appeared to be markedly improved, providing more manoeuvrability, agility and precision while performing tasks representative of in-service operations.

“And it is extremely interesting to consider the potential benefits in the air-to-surface configuration thanks to the increased variety and flexibility of stores that can be carried.”


https://sldinfo.com/2015/07/upgrading-a ... -upgrades/

So far no one currently operating the Typhoon has had this modification added to their fleet of Typhoons
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Unread post27 Nov 2018, 15:49

wrightwing wrote:A lot of F-35 kills in Red Flag, etc... are WVR kills.


This is news to me, do we have a link for this. the F-35 is so good at BVR that It would be odd for them not kill most of their opponents from BVR and WVR will be minimal, mop up jobs or cleaning up the surviving stranglers.

wrightwing wrote:How many times do we need to read anecdotes from Dolby Hanche,


I have read all that, I even have pages upon pages of copy pastas to paste around forums and social media pages centered around Col. Hanche's statements.

The question was, why is the media at large seemingly unaware of this.

Even respectable sites like the infographics show firmly believe that the F-22 and F-35 were "not built to dogfight" and were bested by Typhoons and Rafales. The Su-35 is often labeled there as "the most maneuverable fighter ever built"

The notion that the F-35 is not a good dogfighter is still quite rampant speically outside of hard core enthusiast sites.
So what would it take to erase that.

Why do some planes like the Su-35, Mig-29, Typhoon and F-15 have reputations of being incredible dog fighters even if they were also not "specifically built to dogfight", just like the F-35.

That was my answer. A good airshow will do big to improve the F-35's WVR reputation.
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