EF Typhoon, Enhanced Maneuverability

Unread postPosted: 21 Jul 2015, 16:06
by zero-one
Not too much of a "new" news but interesting. It looks like there are options to increase the Tiffy's already incredible performance.

http://fightersweep.com/2708/eurofighte ... s-upgrade/

One of NATO’s best tactical aircraft has gotten a large boost in performance, thanks to a new Aerodynamic Modification Kit (AMK) from Airbus Defense and Space.
Related Posts


The modified Eurofighter Typhoon, a multi, or swing role aircraft already known for its excellent maneuverability all while carrying an impressive array of weapons, was flown from the company’s test facilities in Manching, Germany.

The enhancements involved the addition of leading edge root extensions, blending the area where the wing meets the fuselage, and enlarged strakes on the fuselage above the engine inlets.

While the modifications may not look like much, they resulted in a huge boost in the airplane’s aerodynamic performance and load-carrying capability.

The idea was to improve the Typhoon’s already stellar turn rate and radius, and the 36 sorties flown yielded impressive results, as Eurofighter Project Pilot Raffale Beltrame describes: “We saw angle of attack values around 45% greater than on the standard aircraft, and roll rates up to 100% higher, all leading to increased agility. The handling qualities appeared to be markedly improved, providing more maneuverability, agility and precision while performing tasks representative of in-service operations.”
A German Air Force Typhoon taxies in following a Red Flag-Alaska mission. The German Air Force is one of several nations which currently operate the Eurofighter solely in an air superiority role.

A German Air Force Typhoon taxies in following a Red Flag-Alaska mission. The German Air Force is one of several nations which currently operate the Eurofighter solely in an air superiority role.

Considering the already stunning performance of the aircraft, this upgrade unlocks even more of the Typhoon’s potential. And they’re not finished yet: the AMK is only one part of the Eurofighter Enhanced Maneuverability (EFEM) program, which is specifically designed to keep the Typhoon ahead of its competitors like Dassault’s Rafale.

The French offering has made huge strides recently after a long period of abysmal (meaning: none) export sales, with Egypt, Qatar, and India all placing orders for the twin-engine Rafale which features the same general configuration as Eurofighter’s Typhoon.

On the surface it seems like a little bit goes a long way in this instance, but since the price tag associated with the modifications has not been revealed, it’s tough to say whether or not the cost is worth the added capability that it offers. So far none of the countries that currently operate the Typhoon have taken the plunge and splurged on the agility upgrade for their current Eurofighter fleets.

Other upgrades in the works that may be even more beneficial as part of the EFEM include weapons systems and a new Captor E-Scan radar from BAE Systems. In addition to being a major upgrade for current operators, these upgrades will help position the Eurofighter in upcoming buys from countries like Finland, Belgium, and Bahrain, who are all looking to upgrade their fighter fleets in the coming years.
An RAF Typhoon ready to take the runway for a night mission during Red Flag

An RAF Typhoon ready to take the runway for a night mission during Red Flag

Just like all US-built aircraft, the Eurofighter will continue to be upgraded throughout its lifespan as a tactical aircraft.Both the Royal Air Force and German Air Force have brought their Typhoons over to the US for Red Flag exercises recently, as the swing-role fighter continues to mature as a deadly weapons system and integrates with various NATO and partner nations. With deliveries of the modern European fighter still continuing, the story of the Typhoon has many chapters yet to be written.


I'm quite surprised that the Europeans were heading a "EFEM" (Eurofighter enhamnced maneuverability) program. According to Bill Sweetman (took it with a grain of salt)
the American's, Europeans and Russians had varrying views on how air combat will play out.

The Russians think that it may involve a lot of WVR, slow speed, post stall, turning fights in a phone booth.
The Americans beleive that it will be a game of hide and seek, first look, first shot, first kill, similar to submarine warfare.
The Europeans are convinced it will involve a lot of BVR long range shots at stand off ranges.

Which is why i'm curious on why the EU guys are investing on enhanced maneuverability for an aircraft that is already incredibly maneuverable.

Also read somwhere that MBDA's research concluded that future air warfare may include a lot of BVR turning fights at high speed

Re: EF Typhoon, Enhanced Maneuverability

Unread postPosted: 21 Jul 2015, 17:02
by basher54321
zero-one wrote:The Russians think that it may involve a lot of WVR, slow speed, post stall, turning fights in a phone booth.
The Americans beleive that it will be a game of hide and seek, first look, first shot, first kill, similar to submarine warfare.
The Europeans are convinced it will involve a lot of BVR long range shots at stand off ranges.

Which is why i'm curious on why the EU guys are investing on enhanced maneuverability for an aircraft that is already incredibly maneuverable.



Well do they really think it is like that? - you would expect them to have similar views - but also be bound by the capabilities they actually have.

How many orders are there for this new kit?

Re: EF Typhoon, Enhanced Maneuverability

Unread postPosted: 21 Jul 2015, 17:12
by popcorn
Let's see if anyone actually shells out the cash to acquire the enhanced performance. A nice brochure feature until that happens. Upgrades to the radar and weapons systems may actually be more beneficial as the article notes.

Re: EF Typhoon, Enhanced Maneuverability

Unread postPosted: 21 Jul 2015, 17:44
by bigjku
popcorn wrote:Let's see if anyone actually shells out the cash to acquire the enhanced performance. A nice brochure feature until that happens. Upgrades to the radar and weapons systems may actually be more benedicial as the article notes.



Agree 100%. To me this looks more like many of the various U.S. projects that added agility to the F-15 and F-16 at times. But none ever got bought. No one will shell out money for this when current production models don't even have an AESA radar in them yet. As far as I can tell there is a development contract but no broad agreement to deploy the thing yet. It still needs new weapons as well for air to ground. Honestly I would be half tempted as a national partner to tell them to knock this off and spend whatever cash they did on this getting those things right first.

Re: EF Typhoon, Enhanced Maneuverability

Unread postPosted: 21 Jul 2015, 17:54
by spazsinbad
"... huge boost in the airplane’s... load-carrying capability...." looks to be a good effect - apart from other aero effects?

Re: EF Typhoon, Enhanced Maneuverability

Unread postPosted: 21 Jul 2015, 18:11
by popcorn
Well, they had to come up with somèthing positive in light of Rafale's recent sales success. Maybe their PR ambition is to wrest the "best dogfighter" title from the Raptor? Or win "best in airshow"? :D

Re: EF Typhoon, Enhanced Maneuverability

Unread postPosted: 21 Jul 2015, 18:15
by lamoey
Here is the test aircraft with the new leading edge root extensions. I have put two different version of the old leading edge root, so there seem to be at least two other versions out there. One here seem to have a navigation light, or perhaps a spotlight for aircraft identification, while others I have seen looks like a antenna pod of some sort.

Re: EF Typhoon, Enhanced Maneuverability

Unread postPosted: 22 Jul 2015, 16:04
by XanderCrews
popcorn wrote:Well, they had to come up with somèthing positive in light of Rafale's recent sales success. Maybe their PR ambition is to wrest the "best dogfighter" title from the Raptor? Or win "best in airshow"? :D


Image

Yet another needed typhoon mod...

Re: EF Typhoon, Enhanced Maneuverability

Unread postPosted: 22 Jul 2015, 19:03
by wil59
zero-one wrote:Not too much of a "new" news but interesting. It looks like there are options to increase the Tiffy's already incredible performance.

http://fightersweep.com/2708/eurofighte ... s-upgrade/

One of NATO’s best tactical aircraft has gotten a large boost in performance, thanks to a new Aerodynamic Modification Kit (AMK) from Airbus Defense and Space.
Related Posts


The modified Eurofighter Typhoon, a multi, or swing role aircraft already known for its excellent maneuverability all while carrying an impressive array of weapons, was flown from the company’s test facilities in Manching, Germany.

The enhancements involved the addition of leading edge root extensions, blending the area where the wing meets the fuselage, and enlarged strakes on the fuselage above the engine inlets.

While the modifications may not look like much, they resulted in a huge boost in the airplane’s aerodynamic performance and load-carrying capability.

The idea was to improve the Typhoon’s already stellar turn rate and radius, and the 36 sorties flown yielded impressive results, as Eurofighter Project Pilot Raffale Beltrame describes: “We saw angle of attack values around 45% greater than on the standard aircraft, and roll rates up to 100% higher, all leading to increased agility. The handling qualities appeared to be markedly improved, providing more maneuverability, agility and precision while performing tasks representative of in-service operations.”
A German Air Force Typhoon taxies in following a Red Flag-Alaska mission. The German Air Force is one of several nations which currently operate the Eurofighter solely in an air superiority role.

A German Air Force Typhoon taxies in following a Red Flag-Alaska mission. The German Air Force is one of several nations which currently operate the Eurofighter solely in an air superiority role.

Considering the already stunning performance of the aircraft, this upgrade unlocks even more of the Typhoon’s potential. And they’re not finished yet: the AMK is only one part of the Eurofighter Enhanced Maneuverability (EFEM) program, which is specifically designed to keep the Typhoon ahead of its competitors like Dassault’s Rafale.

The French offering has made huge strides recently after a long period of abysmal (meaning: none) export sales, with Egypt, Qatar, and India all placing orders for the twin-engine Rafale which features the same general configuration as Eurofighter’s Typhoon.

On the surface it seems like a little bit goes a long way in this instance, but since the price tag associated with the modifications has not been revealed, it’s tough to say whether or not the cost is worth the added capability that it offers. So far none of the countries that currently operate the Typhoon have taken the plunge and splurged on the agility upgrade for their current Eurofighter fleets.

Other upgrades in the works that may be even more beneficial as part of the EFEM include weapons systems and a new Captor E-Scan radar from BAE Systems. In addition to being a major upgrade for current operators, these upgrades will help position the Eurofighter in upcoming buys from countries like Finland, Belgium, and Bahrain, who are all looking to upgrade their fighter fleets in the coming years.
An RAF Typhoon ready to take the runway for a night mission during Red Flag

An RAF Typhoon ready to take the runway for a night mission during Red Flag

Just like all US-built aircraft, the Eurofighter will continue to be upgraded throughout its lifespan as a tactical aircraft.Both the Royal Air Force and German Air Force have brought their Typhoons over to the US for Red Flag exercises recently, as the swing-role fighter continues to mature as a deadly weapons system and integrates with various NATO and partner nations. With deliveries of the modern European fighter still continuing, the story of the Typhoon has many chapters yet to be written.


I'm quite surprised that the Europeans were heading a "EFEM" (Eurofighter enhamnced maneuverability) program. According to Bill Sweetman (took it with a grain of salt)
the American's, Europeans and Russians had varrying views on how air combat will play out.

The Russians think that it may involve a lot of WVR, slow speed, post stall, turning fights in a phone booth.
The Americans beleive that it will be a game of hide and seek, first look, first shot, first kill, similar to submarine warfare.
The Europeans are convinced it will involve a lot of BVR long range shots at stand off ranges.

Which is why i'm curious on why the EU guys are investing on enhanced maneuverability for an aircraft that is already incredibly maneuverable.

Also read somwhere that MBDA's research concluded that future air warfare may include a lot of BVR turning fights at high speed
Considering the already stunning performance of the aircraft, this upgrade unlocks even more of the Typhoon’s potential. And they’re not finished yet: the AMK is only one part of the Eurofighter Enhanced Maneuverability (EFEM) program, which is specifically designed to keep the Typhoon ahead of its competitors like Dassault’s Rafale.

Re: EF Typhoon, Enhanced Maneuverability

Unread postPosted: 22 Jul 2015, 19:05
by wil59
wil59 wrote:
zero-one wrote:Not too much of a "new" news but interesting. It looks like there are options to increase the Tiffy's already incredible performance.

http://fightersweep.com/2708/eurofighte ... s-upgrade/

One of NATO’s best tactical aircraft has gotten a large boost in performance, thanks to a new Aerodynamic Modification Kit (AMK) from Airbus Defense and Space.
Related Posts


The modified Eurofighter Typhoon, a multi, or swing role aircraft already known for its excellent maneuverability all while carrying an impressive array of weapons, was flown from the company’s test facilities in Manching, Germany.

The enhancements involved the addition of leading edge root extensions, blending the area where the wing meets the fuselage, and enlarged strakes on the fuselage above the engine inlets.

While the modifications may not look like much, they resulted in a huge boost in the airplane’s aerodynamic performance and load-carrying capability.

The idea was to improve the Typhoon’s already stellar turn rate and radius, and the 36 sorties flown yielded impressive results, as Eurofighter Project Pilot Raffale Beltrame describes: “We saw angle of attack values around 45% greater than on the standard aircraft, and roll rates up to 100% higher, all leading to increased agility. The handling qualities appeared to be markedly improved, providing more maneuverability, agility and precision while performing tasks representative of in-service operations.”
A German Air Force Typhoon taxies in following a Red Flag-Alaska mission. The German Air Force is one of several nations which currently operate the Eurofighter solely in an air superiority role.

A German Air Force Typhoon taxies in following a Red Flag-Alaska mission. The German Air Force is one of several nations which currently operate the Eurofighter solely in an air superiority role.

Considering the already stunning performance of the aircraft, this upgrade unlocks even more of the Typhoon’s potential. And they’re not finished yet: the AMK is only one part of the Eurofighter Enhanced Maneuverability (EFEM) program, which is specifically designed to keep the Typhoon ahead of its competitors like Dassault’s Rafale.

The French offering has made huge strides recently after a long period of abysmal (meaning: none) export sales, with Egypt, Qatar, and India all placing orders for the twin-engine Rafale which features the same general configuration as Eurofighter’s Typhoon.

On the surface it seems like a little bit goes a long way in this instance, but since the price tag associated with the modifications has not been revealed, it’s tough to say whether or not the cost is worth the added capability that it offers. So far none of the countries that currently operate the Typhoon have taken the plunge and splurged on the agility upgrade for their current Eurofighter fleets.

Other upgrades in the works that may be even more beneficial as part of the EFEM include weapons systems and a new Captor E-Scan radar from BAE Systems. In addition to being a major upgrade for current operators, these upgrades will help position the Eurofighter in upcoming buys from countries like Finland, Belgium, and Bahrain, who are all looking to upgrade their fighter fleets in the coming years.
An RAF Typhoon ready to take the runway for a night mission during Red Flag

An RAF Typhoon ready to take the runway for a night mission during Red Flag

Just like all US-built aircraft, the Eurofighter will continue to be upgraded throughout its lifespan as a tactical aircraft.Both the Royal Air Force and German Air Force have brought their Typhoons over to the US for Red Flag exercises recently, as the swing-role fighter continues to mature as a deadly weapons system and integrates with various NATO and partner nations. With deliveries of the modern European fighter still continuing, the story of the Typhoon has many chapters yet to be written.


I'm quite surprised that the Europeans were heading a "EFEM" (Eurofighter enhamnced maneuverability) program. According to Bill Sweetman (took it with a grain of salt)
the American's, Europeans and Russians had varrying views on how air combat will play out.

The Russians think that it may involve a lot of WVR, slow speed, post stall, turning fights in a phone booth.
The Americans beleive that it will be a game of hide and seek, first look, first shot, first kill, similar to submarine warfare.
The Europeans are convinced it will involve a lot of BVR long range shots at stand off ranges.

Which is why i'm curious on why the EU guys are investing on enhanced maneuverability for an aircraft that is already incredibly maneuverable.

Also read somwhere that MBDA's research concluded that future air warfare may include a lot of BVR turning fights at high speed
Considering the already stunning performance of the aircraft, this upgrade unlocks even more of the Typhoon’s potential. And they’re not finished yet: the AMK is only one part of the Eurofighter Enhanced Maneuverability (EFEM) program, which is specifically designed to keep the Typhoon ahead of its competitors like Dassault’s Rafale.
what! Burst proved he had nothing to envy in English eurofigther.Les drivers want more faced the RAFALE since the 2009 Strike Level!.• During Exercise Joint Warrior 2013-1, rumors say SPECTRA literally gave headaches to Captor-M radar for the Eurofighter, preventing it from hanging Rafale, yet visible and detectable.

Re: EF Typhoon, Enhanced Maneuverability

Unread postPosted: 23 Jul 2015, 12:58
by cola
zero-one wrote:I'm quite surprised that the Europeans were heading a "EFEM" (Eurofighter enhamnced maneuverability) program.

Today, EFs are (or about to) haul iron in some world shithole rather than fight Flankers, so AMk is here to deal with increased weight of large and frequent AG loads.

The Russians think that it may involve a lot of WVR, slow speed, post stall, turning fights in a phone booth.

Russians think much, most of it is garbage though...the thing is Russians can't compete in avionics and engines and they always try to bring fight close, where all bets are off.
They did it in WW2, they did it in ColdWar and they're doing it now, again.

Re: EF Typhoon, Enhanced Maneuverability

Unread postPosted: 23 Jul 2015, 14:51
by borg
Between the PakFa and other procurments, they also have 16 new weapons on various test stage.
Upgrading 120 Mig-31 to stay in service way past 2030. Upgrading AWACS, new ELINT platforms, new A-100..

When reading stuff like Cola here States. .
The slogan; -"stupid is, what stupid says" is fitting.

And the heads in VVS are only too happy with western speculating such..

Re: EF Typhoon, Enhanced Maneuverability

Unread postPosted: 23 Jul 2015, 17:27
by cola
borg wrote:When reading stuff like Cola here States. .
The slogan; -"stupid is, what stupid says" is fitting.

Oh, how nice and smart thing to say...you picked that kinderstube and wits on Krasnaya Ploshad? :D
On a serious note, have you ever been even close to actual Soviet/Russian equipment, or is the computer screen limit?

Re: EF Typhoon, Enhanced Maneuverability

Unread postPosted: 23 Jul 2015, 21:19
by borg
More times that I can count.
But enough about me.
Surely you are not trying to side-step your incorrect and less than pro reflecting point about them Russians.. ;)

Just to make my point even more clear.
There will Come a new Su-35S deal signed at MAKS 2015.

Add 12 Su-27SM3, 16 Su-30M2, 61 Su-30SM and most likely a new 48 deal on Su-35S which makes 96 total.

And here it comes, only 34 Mig-29 SMT.

CLEARLY them Russians are aiming on WVR tactics, nothing on BVR.

I mean if one were to go for WVR, then bying HUGE HEAVY LONG LEGGED Flankers, which happens to sport the the best mission range out there, and more stations hardpoint that they even need.
All this only to sucker adversaries into the box.

Such a Great logic from you.
Pls do keep it up.

Re: EF Typhoon, Enhanced Maneuverability

Unread postPosted: 23 Jul 2015, 21:29
by cola
borg wrote:More times that I can count.

No, you didn't...don't be ridiculous.
Brochure 'knowledge' doesn't count here.

Re: EF Typhoon, Enhanced Maneuverability

Unread postPosted: 24 Jul 2015, 14:05
by uclass
wil59 wrote:what! Burst proved he had nothing to envy in English eurofigther.Les drivers want more faced the RAFALE since the 2009 Strike Level!.• During Exercise Joint Warrior 2013-1, rumors say SPECTRA literally gave headaches to Captor-M radar for the Eurofighter, preventing it from hanging Rafale, yet visible and detectable.

And all rumours eminating from training exercises are usually bullsh1t. There's been at least half a dozen or more separate occasions where different sides have given completely opposed stories of what happened following an exercise. And most exercises usually have parameters and restrictions that don't necessarily make them representative. E.g. an F-22 getting involved in a dogfight without simply nailing all the planes with AMRAAMs from 20nm away.

Wrt SPECTRA, it's over-hyped, massively so. Don't get me wrong, it's a decent DRFM-based jamming system, but some of the BS floating around about it reducing effective frontal cross-section to that of an F-22 with active cancellation and reducing fully-bombed-up RCS to 1% of that of an F-18E is simply horse crap. It's effect in Libya was also over-hyped, it made one pre-SEAD raid and the only SAM the Rafales evaded was an SA-8 that was out-of-range - all 15km, 39,000ft and RF CLOS of it.

Re: EF Typhoon, Enhanced Maneuverability

Unread postPosted: 24 Jul 2015, 14:14
by uclass
borg wrote:Between the PakFa and other procurments, they also have 16 new weapons on various test stage.
Upgrading 120 Mig-31 to stay in service way past 2030. Upgrading AWACS, new ELINT platforms, new A-100..

When reading stuff like Cola here States. .
The slogan; -"stupid is, what stupid says" is fitting.

And the heads in VVS are only too happy with western speculating such..

The PAK-FA isn't running to schedule. No way will 12 jets be in service by next year. Look at the number of Su-35s - they came out in 2008.

As regards the Mig-31, they're being upgraded to the BM standard, which is 20 years old itself.

China on the other hand... they're more of a worry because they have the money to develop and roll stuff out fast.

Re: EF Typhoon, Enhanced Maneuverability

Unread postPosted: 24 Jul 2015, 17:57
by wil59
uclass wrote:
wil59 wrote:what! Burst proved he had nothing to envy in English eurofigther.Les drivers want more faced the RAFALE since the 2009 Strike Level!.• During Exercise Joint Warrior 2013-1, rumors say SPECTRA literally gave headaches to Captor-M radar for the Eurofighter, preventing it from hanging Rafale, yet visible and detectable.

And all rumours eminating from training exercises are usually bullsh1t. There's been at least half a dozen or more separate occasions where different sides have given completely opposed stories of what happened following an exercise. And most exercises usually have parameters and restrictions that don't necessarily make them representative. E.g. an F-22 getting involved in a dogfight without simply nailing all the planes with AMRAAMs from 20nm away.

Wrt SPECTRA, it's over-hyped, massively so. Don't get me wrong, it's a decent DRFM-based jamming system, but some of the BS floating around about it reducing effective frontal cross-section to that of an F-22 with active cancellation and reducing fully-bombed-up RCS to 1% of that of an F-18E is simply horse crap. It's effect in Libya was also over-hyped, it made one pre-SEAD raid and the only SAM the Rafales evaded was an SA-8 that was out-of-range - all 15km, 39,000ft and RF CLOS of it.

Therefore, pilot rafale are liar! spectrum sh*t, mica ir / em can not hit f-22;! irst is useless ! so the rafale and eurofigther is useless against the stealth aircraft!

Re: EF Typhoon, Enhanced Maneuverability

Unread postPosted: 24 Jul 2015, 19:35
by uclass
wil59 wrote:
uclass wrote:
wil59 wrote:what! Burst proved he had nothing to envy in English eurofigther.Les drivers want more faced the RAFALE since the 2009 Strike Level!.• During Exercise Joint Warrior 2013-1, rumors say SPECTRA literally gave headaches to Captor-M radar for the Eurofighter, preventing it from hanging Rafale, yet visible and detectable.

And all rumours eminating from training exercises are usually bullsh1t. There's been at least half a dozen or more separate occasions where different sides have given completely opposed stories of what happened following an exercise. And most exercises usually have parameters and restrictions that don't necessarily make them representative. E.g. an F-22 getting involved in a dogfight without simply nailing all the planes with AMRAAMs from 20nm away.

Wrt SPECTRA, it's over-hyped, massively so. Don't get me wrong, it's a decent DRFM-based jamming system, but some of the BS floating around about it reducing effective frontal cross-section to that of an F-22 with active cancellation and reducing fully-bombed-up RCS to 1% of that of an F-18E is simply horse crap. It's effect in Libya was also over-hyped, it made one pre-SEAD raid and the only SAM the Rafales evaded was an SA-8 that was out-of-range - all 15km, 39,000ft and RF CLOS of it.

Therefore, pilot rafale are liar! spectrum sh*t, mica ir / em can not hit f-22;! irst is useless ! so the rafale and eurofigther is useless against the stealth aircraft!

Now you're making up what I said. I simply stated that 'partisan reports' after training exercises are not to be trusted. Clearly if two pilots give conflicting accounts, they aren't both telling the truth.

Re: EF Typhoon, Enhanced Maneuverability

Unread postPosted: 24 Jul 2015, 19:41
by borg
uclass wrote:
borg wrote:Between the PakFa and other procurments, they also have 16 new weapons on various test stage.
Upgrading 120 Mig-31 to stay in service way past 2030. Upgrading AWACS, new ELINT platforms, new A-100..

When reading stuff like Cola here States. .
The slogan; -"stupid is, what stupid says" is fitting.

And the heads in VVS are only too happy with western speculating such..

The PAK-FA isn't running to schedule. No way will 12 jets be in service by next year. Look at the number of Su-35s - they came out in 2008.

As regards the Mig-31, they're being upgraded to the BM standard, which is 20 years old itself.

China on the other hand... they're more of a worry because they have the money to develop and roll stuff out fast.


You are right about one thing. 12 PakFa will not enter service next year.
It has been clear for some time.

Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation in 2016-2017 years will buy a squadron of fighter of the fifth generation - Deputy Minister
02/07/2015 11:17:40

St. Peterburg.2 July. Interfax-AVN - Plans in 2016-2017 to purchase a squadron of the fifth generation fighter T-50 (PAK FA) remained unchanged, said Deputy Defense Minister Yuri Borisov.

"In 2016-2017 we will buy, as planned, a squadron of the PAK FA. It will be used as a combat unit," - said Yu.Borisov reporters on Thursday at the International Maritime Defense Show IMDS-2015 in St. Petersburg.

The deputy minister noted that the Russian Air Force will buy less PAK FA than originally planned, due to a larger number of purchased Su-35 fighters.
"Flight performance and armament of the Su-35 in many respects superior to their foreign counterparts," - said Yu.Borisov.

Re: EF Typhoon, Enhanced Maneuverability

Unread postPosted: 25 Jul 2015, 12:51
by uclass
So if they buy them in 2017, I imagine they'll arrive by about 2020 best case.

I don't think the statement about the Su-35 holds true either given the rapid uptake of AESA on foreign jets.

Re: EF Typhoon, Enhanced Maneuverability

Unread postPosted: 25 Jul 2015, 13:16
by cola
"Flight performance and armament of the Su-35 in many respects superior to their foreign counterparts," - said Yu.Borisov.

Ah..."Borisov said"...now, that explains the origins of your 'operational experience'...funny little clown. :D

EDIT: Who would've thought...?
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/business/article/investigation-ordered-into-string-of-russian-air-force-crashes/526156.html
Since early June the air force has lost two Tu-95 “Bear” strategic bombers, two MiG-29 fighters, an older Su-24 strike jet, a newer Su-34 fighter-bomber, and most recently an Antonov An-12 military transport.

Engine problems appear to be a common theme. One of the Bear bombers careened off a runway when an engine burst into flames on takeoff, and according to one unidentified source quoted by RIA Novosti after the second Tu-95 crash in mid-July, all four engines on that aircraft died mid-flight.

Re: EF Typhoon, Enhanced Maneuverability

Unread postPosted: 30 Jul 2015, 21:26
by zero-one
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... rm-401344/

Laurie Hilditch, head of future capabilities at Eurofighter, says the modification kit should give the aircraft the sort of “knife-fight in a phone box” turning capability enjoyed by rivals such as Boeing’s F/A-18E/F or the Lockheed Martin F-16, without sacrificing the transonic and supersonic high-energy agility inherent to its delta wing-canard configuration.


Very curious statement. For years the Ef Typhoon has always been viewd to have superior turning capability to both the Rhino and the Viper.

I often view the Typhoon as just below the Raptor in terms of high G turning maneuverability. Much like an F-16 only better.

I would of understood if he said, the kit eould have given the Tiffy better slow speed turning capabilities enjoyed by the Rhino. But why did he mention the Viper, the Viper isn't known for great slow speed maneuverability, its better than a Mig-29 but is in absolute trouble in that arena against a Hornet or Rhino.

Anyone know what this means?

Re: EF Typhoon, Enhanced Maneuverability

Unread postPosted: 31 Jul 2015, 14:51
by bigjku
I agree it is a strange statement and strange thing to be messing with at this point. What I figured these were mostly for was to recover agility lost under heavier weapons and external fuel loads that one typically sees now as opposed to the clean interceptor configuration it was built to operate as originally. It is a nice thing to do but I don't really see it as all that important.

But honestly at this point I have tuned out the eurofighter. Until someone puts an operational AESA that he multiple modes of operation enabled in its programming the aircraft to me is largely irrelevant going forward. It will be fine for quick reaction work against non VLO aircraft. It will be fine as a bomb truck. But it will be at a huge disadvantage in an electronically dirtied battle space compared to aircraft with a proper modern fighter radar.

Everything else is just window dressing to me. It will make the EF look great when things are forced to a merge. A merge it is unlikely to get to because of its obsolete radar setup.

Re: EF Typhoon, Enhanced Maneuverability

Unread postPosted: 02 Aug 2015, 11:43
by uclass
bigjku wrote:I agree it is a strange statement and strange thing to be messing with at this point. What I figured these were mostly for was to recover agility lost under heavier weapons and external fuel loads that one typically sees now as opposed to the clean interceptor configuration it was built to operate as originally. It is a nice thing to do but I don't really see it as all that important.

But honestly at this point I have tuned out the eurofighter. Until someone puts an operational AESA that he multiple modes of operation enabled in its programming the aircraft to me is largely irrelevant going forward. It will be fine for quick reaction work against non VLO aircraft. It will be fine as a bomb truck. But it will be at a huge disadvantage in an electronically dirtied battle space compared to aircraft with a proper modern fighter radar.

Everything else is just window dressing to me. It will make the EF look great when things are forced to a merge. A merge it is unlikely to get to because of its obsolete radar setup.

It isn't that important and I doubt partner nations will adopt it but export nations focus on funny things. The batch of RSAF Typhoons being delivered now are getting AESA according to Combat Aircraft. RAF AESA is expected in 2017, with radar 2 in 2019-2021, which adds an electronic attack function developed by QinetiQ. DASS P4E update is also due in 2020.

Re: EF Typhoon, Enhanced Maneuverability

Unread postPosted: 02 Aug 2015, 15:03
by bigjku
http://www.janes.com/article/53302/typhoon-p2e-upgrade-trials-to-begin-shortly

According to this update which is about as detailed and current as I have seen the situation is roughly as follows. They are just starting flight testing in Meteor and Storn Shadow capability which all partners are committed to. The UK is committed to the next upgrade which basically gets them Brimstone. No one else seems interested in that.

The AESA has not flown yet. They hope it flys later this year in a developmental model. No one has publicly committed to putting it out operationally yet. They don't even know what issues they might hit when it goes in the air. If the Saudis are flying with an AESA I would love to know what radar it is and who makes it. Most likely they were referencing that the aircraft could be fitted with it like all the tranche 2 and 3 aircraft are supposed to be capable of. At the end of 2014 first flight was supposed to be early 2015. Now they hope it is in 2015.

There is probably a bit of a learning curve here as well. Does anyone really think they will just slap this thing in and have full integration from day 1? There are probably years of work to do on this thing to get all the air to air and air to ground modes functioning properly. When I see a contract to actually build a deployed radar I will believe it, not before then. The Germans appear to have not interest in moving forward on most defense matters really.

Re: EF Typhoon, Enhanced Maneuverability

Unread postPosted: 02 Aug 2015, 15:14
by disconnectedradical
The Typhoon modification kit is reshaped strakes and LERX. It's mainly meant for better high AOA performance and better maneuverability under various load conditions like asymmetric loading.

Re: EF Typhoon, Enhanced Maneuverability

Unread postPosted: 02 Aug 2015, 17:28
by uclass
http://fightersweep.com/2708/eurofighte ... s-upgrade/

The idea was to improve the Typhoon’s already stellar turn rate and radius, and the 36 sorties flown yielded impressive results, as Eurofighter Project Pilot Raffale Beltrame describes: “We saw angle of attack values around 45% greater than on the standard aircraft, and roll rates up to 100% higher, all leading to increased agility. The handling qualities appeared to be markedly improved, providing more maneuverability, agility and precision while performing tasks representative of in-service operations.”


Re: EF Typhoon, Enhanced Maneuverability

Unread postPosted: 06 Aug 2015, 06:26
by popcorn
Hmmm..
http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/indian-a ... ?site=full


Indian Air Force Sukhois Dominate UK Fighter Jets in Combat Exercises


NEW DELHI: In some of the most intense international air combat exercises ever featuring the Indian Air Force, IAF pilots flying Sukhoi Su-30 MKI fighters had a resounding 12-0 scoreline in their favour against Royal Air Force Typhoon jets in Within Visual Range (WVR) dogfighting operations.

In subsequent Large Force Exercises (LFE) which featured combined Eurofighter Typhoon and Su-30 formations, the IAF jets were somewhat less successful but consistently held an edge over the Typhoon.

More...

Re: EF Typhoon, Enhanced Maneuverability

Unread postPosted: 06 Aug 2015, 11:08
by uclass
bigjku wrote:http://www.janes.com/article/53302/typhoon-p2e-upgrade-trials-to-begin-shortly

According to this update which is about as detailed and current as I have seen the situation is roughly as follows. They are just starting flight testing in Meteor and Storn Shadow capability which all partners are committed to. The UK is committed to the next upgrade which basically gets them Brimstone. No one else seems interested in that.

The AESA has not flown yet. They hope it flys later this year in a developmental model. No one has publicly committed to putting it out operationally yet. They don't even know what issues they might hit when it goes in the air. If the Saudis are flying with an AESA I would love to know what radar it is and who makes it. Most likely they were referencing that the aircraft could be fitted with it like all the tranche 2 and 3 aircraft are supposed to be capable of. At the end of 2014 first flight was supposed to be early 2015. Now they hope it is in 2015.

There is probably a bit of a learning curve here as well. Does anyone really think they will just slap this thing in and have full integration from day 1? There are probably years of work to do on this thing to get all the air to air and air to ground modes functioning properly. When I see a contract to actually build a deployed radar I will believe it, not before then. The Germans appear to have not interest in moving forward on most defense matters really.

They aren't flying with it yet but the export version is going on the batch of 24 RSAF aircraft currently being built. Integration began last year. Flight testing is part of that integration.

The learning curve isn't that big at all. The biggest problem with the integration of any electronic system is making sure it's actually been fitted correctly. The actual functional part of the integration test is done at the factory. They don't just design a standalone radar on a bench without testing it in conjunction with the system it's being fitted to. Usually there will exist what's called an iron bird model, which is basically just wires and electronics systems from the aircraft in a room in a building somewhere. Normally it will also have been flown on a test mule of some guise too. What remains in terms of putting it on an IPA is actually better described as commissioning in more traditional engineering terms. It's actually inaccurate to call it integration, since the integration testing has already happened. There's no way it would even being going on a plane if systems integration testing hadn't already occurred. It's likely waiting to be commissioned alongside Meteor, which would make sense if you think about it.

The UK is funding it, so German lethargy is no longer an issue.

https://www.rusi.org/analysis/commentar ... cMuhPlVhLM

Re: EF Typhoon, Enhanced Maneuverability

Unread postPosted: 06 Aug 2015, 11:10
by uclass
popcorn wrote:Hmmm..
http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/indian-a ... ?site=full


Indian Air Force Sukhois Dominate UK Fighter Jets in Combat Exercises


NEW DELHI: In some of the most intense international air combat exercises ever featuring the Indian Air Force, IAF pilots flying Sukhoi Su-30 MKI fighters had a resounding 12-0 scoreline in their favour against Royal Air Force Typhoon jets in Within Visual Range (WVR) dogfighting operations.

In subsequent Large Force Exercises (LFE) which featured combined Eurofighter Typhoon and Su-30 formations, the IAF jets were somewhat less successful but consistently held an edge over the Typhoon.

More...

This explains it:

india-news


Yeah, they said the same thing last time, and we said something different back then as well.

http://twocircles.net/2011jul24/british ... cMrGvlVhLM

'British Typhoons whacked India's Sukhois in joint exercises'


And they said something different to what the USAF said following Red Flag(?) and demanded an apology. Large pinch of salt etc.

Basically there's no way they could beat Typhoon WVR in real life because there isn't a single place in the whole sky their plane can exist without being hittable with an ASRAAM. Whereas an R-73 is limited to +/-45deg OBS, which is why their plane needs TVC in the first place.

When reading an IAF report, it's always best to have this image in mind:

Image

Although to be fair no IAF source actually reported the 12-0, look for the quotation marks, very telling in these matters:

http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/indian-a ... ?site=full

Asked about the performance of IAF pilots in these Large Force Engagements, Group Captain Srivastav told NDTV his pilots performed "fairly well" though "quantifying [the results] is difficult".


Now if they won 12-0, surely that wouldn't be difficult to quantify? Especially when it already is quantified huh?

Re: EF Typhoon, Enhanced Maneuverability

Unread postPosted: 06 Aug 2015, 12:10
by popcorn
uclass wrote:
Asked about the performance of IAF pilots in these Large Force Engagements, Group Captain Srivastav told NDTV his pilots performed "fairly well" though "quantifying [the results] is difficult".


Now if they won 12-0, surely that wouldn't be difficult to quantify? Especially when it already is quantified huh?


Note that the 12-0 score was reported to be for WVR engagements and the scores for the LFE are those said to be difficult to quantify. Anyway, maybe Sweetman will grace us with his view on how things unfolded.

Re: EF Typhoon, Enhanced Maneuverability

Unread postPosted: 06 Aug 2015, 12:27
by uclass
popcorn wrote:
Note that the 12-0 score was reported to be for WVR engagements and the scores for the LFE are those said to be difficult to quantify. Anyway, maybe Sweetman will grace us with his view on how things unfolded.

Well here's the thing on that:

NEW DELHI: In some of the most intense international air combat exercises ever featuring the Indian Air Force, IAF pilots flying Sukhoi Su-30 MKI fighters had a resounding 12-0 scoreline in their favour against Royal Air Force Typhoon jets in Within Visual Range (WVR) dogfighting operations.

The first week of the exercises pitted the Su-30, which NATO calls the Flanker, in a series of aerial dogfight scenarios. First, there were 1 v 1 encounters, where a single jet of each type engaged each other in Within Visual Range (WVR) combat, firing simulated missiles to a range of two miles. The exercises progressed to 2 v 2 engagements with two Eurofighters taking on two Su-30s and 2 v 1 exercises where two Sukhois took on a single Typhoon and vice versa.


See the problem there? Somehow even in 2v1 WVR engagements, with 2 Typhoons vs 1 Su-30, the Typhoon never got a single kill. :D Is that really plausible?

Re: EF Typhoon, Enhanced Maneuverability

Unread postPosted: 06 Aug 2015, 12:31
by boff180
A few discrepancies have been picked up in that report.

Mainly over the reliability of the Sukhois..... which they claim was perfect. "The IAF also encountered no serviceability issues with any of its participating jets"

I spent 3 days photographing them from the fence and on one occasion a Sukhoi didn't launch because of technical failure (I have an airband scanner and the ground abort was very clear).

It's been reported on two further occasions (not witnessed by me), a Sukhoi had to abort and RTB due to technical failure.

That immediately puts the rest of the article in question.

Andy

p.s. Just to prove I was there, here are my shots.... https://www.flickr.com/photos/evansavio ... 4022158093

Re: EF Typhoon, Enhanced Maneuverability

Unread postPosted: 06 Aug 2015, 12:32
by uclass
I also noted that the Typhoon's were given a handicap WVR (drop tank):

Image

Re: EF Typhoon, Enhanced Maneuverability

Unread postPosted: 06 Aug 2015, 12:41
by uclass
boff180 wrote:A few discrepancies have been picked up in that report.

Mainly over the reliability of the Sukhois..... which they claim was perfect. "The IAF also encountered no serviceability issues with any of its participating jets"

I spent 3 days photographing them from the fence and on one occasion a Sukhoi didn't launch because of technical failure (I have an airband scanner and the ground abort was very clear).

It's been reported on two further occasions (not witnessed by me), a Sukhoi had to abort and RTB due to technical failure.

That immediately puts the rest of the article in question.

Andy

p.s. Just to prove I was there, here are my shots.... https://www.flickr.com/photos/evansavio ... 4022158093

Noted. The article has all the underpinnings of a North Korean news report.

Re: EF Typhoon, Enhanced Maneuverability

Unread postPosted: 06 Aug 2015, 13:10
by sferrin
popcorn wrote: Anyway, maybe Sweetman will grace us with his view on how things unfolded.


Obviously the Typhoon won because the F-35 sucks. :wink:

Re: EF Typhoon, Enhanced Maneuverability

Unread postPosted: 06 Aug 2015, 13:11
by borg
uclass wrote:I also noted that the Typhoon's were given a handicap WVR (drop tank):


Why is it such a handicap?
What about the MKI handicap, huge internal fuel Storage, which limit the E M..

Re: EF Typhoon, Enhanced Maneuverability

Unread postPosted: 06 Aug 2015, 13:12
by sferrin
uclass wrote:I also noted that the Typhoon's were given a handicap WVR (drop tank):

Image


Probably less a handicap and more a necessity. Flankers have a lot of fuel.

Re: EF Typhoon, Enhanced Maneuverability

Unread postPosted: 06 Aug 2015, 13:35
by uclass
sferrin wrote:
Probably less a handicap and more a necessity. Flankers have a lot of fuel.

That doesn't mean that Typhoon is going to hold on to a drop tank in a real life dogfight. Drop tanks were invented for a reason. Clue's in the name.

Wrt fuel fraction. Su-30 - 35.2%, Typhoon - 32.7%. Not a massive difference, especially considering the lower SFC of the EJ200s.

So in short, the Typhoon will have been restricted to 7-7.5g until the tank was empty and suffered a drag penalty, whilst also having restricted missile launch parameters wrt HMCS, HOBS, LOAL etc.

And this seems like a discrete way of saying they were beaten BVR:

Asked about the performance of IAF pilots in these Large Force Engagements, Group Captain Srivastav told NDTV his pilots performed "fairly well" though "quantifying [the results] is difficult".

Re: EF Typhoon, Enhanced Maneuverability

Unread postPosted: 06 Aug 2015, 13:50
by sferrin
uclass wrote:
sferrin wrote:
Probably less a handicap and more a necessity. Flankers have a lot of fuel.

That doesn't mean that Typhoon is going to hold on to a drop tank in a real life dogfight. Drop tanks were invented for a reason. Clue's in the name.


No kidding? You mean drop tanks are meant to be dropped? No. Friggin'. Way. :roll: Here's a clue for you - it's unlikely by fight time that there was any fuel at all left in that tank (fuel in ETs gets used first) so the "handicap" would be trivial.

Re: EF Typhoon, Enhanced Maneuverability

Unread postPosted: 06 Aug 2015, 14:09
by uclass
sferrin wrote:No kidding? You mean drop tanks are meant to be dropped? No. Friggin'. Way. :roll: Here's a clue for you - it's unlikely by fight time that there was any fuel at all left in that tank (fuel in ETs gets used first) so the "handicap" would be trivial.

Aerodynamic handicap shouldn't be overlooked. And frankly the fuel fraction/range difference after considering SFC is sufficiently small to warrant not having it in the first place. But the report is pure crap anyway. The only way an Su-30 could score any kills WVR is by removing the use of HMCS, HOBS and LOAL from the Typhoon. And as for 2 Typhoons vs 1 Su-30, if RAF fighter pilots couldn't get a kill in that situation, they wouldn't be RAF fighter pilots.

Basically if you read the bits in quotation marks from the IAF and disregard the rest, that's what actually happened, the rest is a journalist making stuff up for partisan reasons.

Re: EF Typhoon, Enhanced Maneuverability

Unread postPosted: 06 Aug 2015, 14:22
by sferrin
uclass wrote:
sferrin wrote:No kidding? You mean drop tanks are meant to be dropped? No. Friggin'. Way. :roll: Here's a clue for you - it's unlikely by fight time that there was any fuel at all left in that tank (fuel in ETs gets used first) so the "handicap" would be trivial.

Aerodynamic handicap shouldn't be overlooked. And frankly the fuel fraction/range difference after considering SFC is sufficiently small to warrant not having it in the first place. But the report is pure crap anyway. The only way an Su-30 could score any kills WVR is by removing the use of HMCS, HOBS and LOAL from the Typhoon. And as for 2 Typhoons vs 1 Su-30, if RAF fighter pilots couldn't get a kill in that situation, they wouldn't be RAF fighter pilots.

Basically if you read the bits in quotation marks from the IAF and disregard the rest, that's what actually happened, the rest is a journalist making stuff up for partisan reasons.


Oh I don't disagree with that. Just sayin' that the effect that empty tank would have on performance would be minimal.

Re: EF Typhoon, Enhanced Maneuverability

Unread postPosted: 06 Aug 2015, 14:27
by uclass
sferrin wrote:Oh I don't disagree with that. Just sayin' that the effect that empty tank would have on performance would be minimal.

I couldn't quantify it but they must be dropable for a reason. Drag would certainly affect STRs and energy recovery, after all external fuel never gets a plane as far as internal fuel range-wise.

Re: EF Typhoon, Enhanced Maneuverability

Unread postPosted: 06 Aug 2015, 15:09
by borg
Well, the EF must carry at least one wet bag, if it is to hold up MKI.
If not, then its one of two:

- Bingo fuel, returning to base!
- We need tanker support!

There is important aspect to get the most out of these kind of training exercises, yes?
Imo as much flight hour as possible while the Indians still here.

Re: EF Typhoon, Enhanced Maneuverability

Unread postPosted: 06 Aug 2015, 15:22
by bigjku
uclass wrote:
bigjku wrote:http://www.janes.com/article/53302/typhoon-p2e-upgrade-trials-to-begin-shortly

According to this update which is about as detailed and current as I have seen the situation is roughly as follows. They are just starting flight testing in Meteor and Storn Shadow capability which all partners are committed to. The UK is committed to the next upgrade which basically gets them Brimstone. No one else seems interested in that.

The AESA has not flown yet. They hope it flys later this year in a developmental model. No one has publicly committed to putting it out operationally yet. They don't even know what issues they might hit when it goes in the air. If the Saudis are flying with an AESA I would love to know what radar it is and who makes it. Most likely they were referencing that the aircraft could be fitted with it like all the tranche 2 and 3 aircraft are supposed to be capable of. At the end of 2014 first flight was supposed to be early 2015. Now they hope it is in 2015.

There is probably a bit of a learning curve here as well. Does anyone really think they will just slap this thing in and have full integration from day 1? There are probably years of work to do on this thing to get all the air to air and air to ground modes functioning properly. When I see a contract to actually build a deployed radar I will believe it, not before then. The Germans appear to have not interest in moving forward on most defense matters really.

They aren't flying with it yet but the export version is going on the batch of 24 RSAF aircraft currently being built. Integration began last year. Flight testing is part of that integration.

The learning curve isn't that big at all. The biggest problem with the integration of any electronic system is making sure it's actually been fitted correctly. The actual functional part of the integration test is done at the factory. They don't just design a standalone radar on a bench without testing it in conjunction with the system it's being fitted to. Usually there will exist what's called an iron bird model, which is basically just wires and electronics systems from the aircraft in a room in a building somewhere. Normally it will also have been flown on a test mule of some guise too. What remains in terms of putting it on an IPA is actually better described as commissioning in more traditional engineering terms. It's actually inaccurate to call it integration, since the integration testing has already happened. There's no way it would even being going on a plane if systems integration testing hadn't already occurred. It's likely waiting to be commissioned alongside Meteor, which would make sense if you think about it.

The UK is funding it, so German lethargy is no longer an issue.

https://www.rusi.org/analysis/commentar ... cMuhPlVhLM


Are there any sources that show this is actually going on as scheduled though? I provided the janes update which is a year more current than this one and it explicitly describes the situation with the CAPTOR-e being part of P4e rather than P3e. Seeing as P2e is scheduled to be ready by sometime in 2017 and P3e is supposed to be sometime in 2018 that would put this out to at least 2019 I would think.

I am not disputing what you say but do you really think an operational AESA will be flying with Eurofighter before 2019? Nothing I have read indicates much certainty with the issue at all. I guess I just expected to see something beyond a development contract signed at this point if deployment really is right around the corner.

Re: EF Typhoon, Enhanced Maneuverability

Unread postPosted: 06 Aug 2015, 17:45
by boff180
The first P2E equipped development bird flew this week for the first time.

Re: EF Typhoon, Enhanced Maneuverability

Unread postPosted: 06 Aug 2015, 18:00
by bigjku
boff180 wrote:The first P2E equipped development bird flew this week for the first time.


And P2E as far as I know really just integrates Meteor and Storm Shadow correct?

Re: EF Typhoon, Enhanced Maneuverability

Unread postPosted: 06 Aug 2015, 18:38
by uclass
borg wrote:Well, the EF must carry at least one wet bag, if it is to hold up MKI.
If not, then its one of two:

- Bingo fuel, returning to base!
- We need tanker support!

There is important aspect to get the most out of these kind of training exercises, yes?
Imo as much flight hour as possible while the Indians still here.

Nope, in any real life situation, any drop tanks are jettisoned... and ASRAAM is launched at 10+nm against any aggressors, or across 360deg in WVR combat. Basically, a dogfight is a fallacy... against any aircraft.

Re: EF Typhoon, Enhanced Maneuverability

Unread postPosted: 06 Aug 2015, 18:40
by uclass
bigjku wrote:
Are there any sources that show this is actually going on as scheduled though? I provided the janes update which is a year more current than this one and it explicitly describes the situation with the CAPTOR-e being part of P4e rather than P3e. Seeing as P2e is scheduled to be ready by sometime in 2017 and P3e is supposed to be sometime in 2018 that would put this out to at least 2019 I would think.

I am not disputing what you say but do you really think an operational AESA will be flying with Eurofighter before 2019? Nothing I have read indicates much certainty with the issue at all. I guess I just expected to see something beyond a development contract signed at this point if deployment really is right around the corner.

Sure there are sources if you look for them.

http://ukarmedforcescommentary.blogspot ... l/Captor-E

The first version, Captor-E radar 1 will be ready in 2017, with Captor-E radar 2 available in 2019.

P4E is mainly a DASS update.

https://www.rusi.org/downloads/assets/W ... _Power.pdf

Re: EF Typhoon, Enhanced Maneuverability

Unread postPosted: 06 Aug 2015, 20:09
by boff180
bigjku wrote:
boff180 wrote:The first P2E equipped development bird flew this week for the first time.


And P2E as far as I know really just integrates Meteor and Storm Shadow correct?


Together with some fairly significant updates to the Defensive Suites, these two tweets detail the upgrade path.
https://twitter.com/BAESystemsAir/statu ... 5580253184
https://twitter.com/BAESystemsplc/statu ... 9287954434


Anyway, back to the Indian Story.

The RAF have challenged the background to the 12-0 explaining this happened during the "bedding in" stage where they were getting the Indians used to UK operating conditions and the Typhoons deliberately allowed themselves to be sitting ducks. Akin to "clay pigeon shooting".

http://forces.tv/00317417

Re: EF Typhoon, Enhanced Maneuverability

Unread postPosted: 06 Aug 2015, 20:31
by sferrin
boff180 wrote:The RAF have challenged the background to the 12-0 explaining this happened during the "bedding in" stage where they were getting the Indians used to UK operating conditions and the Typhoons deliberately allowed themselves to be sitting ducks. Akin to "clay pigeon shooting".


You mean there's more to the story? No. Way. :wink:

Re: EF Typhoon, Enhanced Maneuverability

Unread postPosted: 06 Aug 2015, 21:16
by uclass
No way, I thought 12-0 was legit. :D

Re: EF Typhoon, Enhanced Maneuverability

Unread postPosted: 07 Aug 2015, 04:51
by mk82
Typical Indian media bullshit! I always thought that Colonel Fornoff had good points about the performance of the Indian Air Force at Red Flag. Too bad that Russia Stronk and India Stronk idiots were screeching like Harpies at some of the things he had to say.

Re: EF Typhoon, Enhanced Maneuverability

Unread postPosted: 07 Aug 2015, 12:25
by uclass
Vishnu Som is apparently reveared as a demi-God over there even though they accept that NDTV in general is a very poor source of information. So basically they think everything that media outlet has to offer stinks apart from when this guy writes. It's a case of telling people what they want to hear. :D

Re: EF Typhoon, Enhanced Maneuverability

Unread postPosted: 07 Aug 2015, 12:53
by uclass
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/ho ... 44466.html

It doesn't speak very highly of the Indian AF when the RAF have to go on record and say this:

In an interview with Indian television, IAF Group Captain Ashu Srivastav claimed victory over the British aircraft during close-range dogfights – prompting an RAF source to label his claim “comical”.

Responding to the Indian claims, the RAF source they were clearly designed for the “domestic audience”. He told The Independent: “There must have been some clouded recollection on the flights back to India, as the headlines of the Indian press bear no relation to the results of the tactical scenarios completed on the exercise in any shape or form.”

The RAF source also stressed that the Typhoons had effectively been fighting “with one arm behind their backs” as they did not make full use of their more advanced weapons systems.

Re: EF Typhoon, Enhanced Maneuverability

Unread postPosted: 07 Aug 2015, 13:55
by zero-one
Now this is the way to respond. Someone should really teach the F-35 PR team to respond like this more often.

For a minute there, I was afraid the RAF would answer this by saying something like.

the Typhoon's advanced sensor suite coupled with the Meteor missile will allow RAF pilots to engage and destroy targets without getting to within visual range anyway.

:roll:

Re: EF Typhoon, Enhanced Maneuverability

Unread postPosted: 07 Aug 2015, 14:46
by delvo
Putting that kind of praise & hyperbole on the planes they already have feels familiar. It's like what comes from some Americans & Australians & such talking about older models that are to be discontinued and replaced with F-35. And India is currently deciding on its next round of new fighters. Is there a movement by Indian pacifists or such to try to run down one or more of the candidates?

Re: EF Typhoon, Enhanced Maneuverability

Unread postPosted: 07 Aug 2015, 18:54
by uclass
http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2 ... count=1031

The fact that we were limiting ASRAAM to 2 NM (and simulating export spec missiles), when its actual range is in double digits should say all that needs be said.

And yes, we were flying with tanks (two on most sorties).

It was a training exercise, for both sides and it served its purpose. But you've got to let the Indians have something they travel all that way.

Re: EF Typhoon, Enhanced Maneuverability

Unread postPosted: 13 Nov 2018, 15:36
by sprstdlyscottsmn
I'm not normally one to bring up dead threads, but I also don't want to start a new one when one already exists. Has anything ever come of the AMK upgrade? Was it ever funded? Did anyone put it on their Tiffies?

Re: EF Typhoon, Enhanced Maneuverability

Unread postPosted: 13 Nov 2018, 15:57
by marsavian
It has been mentioned in the Airbus Germany Tornado replacement context. I suspect any new German orders over the original tranche orders will have it along with an AESA as it is basically a German development modification. Once it's put on a production aircraft future export orders may contain it too.

Re: EF Typhoon, Enhanced Maneuverability

Unread postPosted: 14 Nov 2018, 10:27
by irt
marsavian wrote:It has been mentioned in the Airbus Germany Tornado replacement context. I suspect any new German orders over the original tranche orders will have it along with an AESA as it is basically a German development modification. Once it's put on a production aircraft future export orders may contain it too.


Seems like the Germans ar ordering new build Typhoons to replace older tr1 planes. Will be interesting to se the specs of the new build ones.

https://twitter.com/WachterBDI/status/1 ... 9580304385

Re: EF Typhoon, Enhanced Maneuverability

Unread postPosted: 14 Nov 2018, 14:42
by mixelflick
Dumb question...

With the stats clearly showing many more BVR engagements over the past 20 years, why would anyone choose instead to focus on enhanced maneuverability? Or has the Typhoon/Meteor reached the apex of its capabilities, and therefore "enhanced maneuverability" is the new selling point?

I would have thought ASRAAM plus what the Typhoon is already capable of as good enough WVR. At the very least, get an AESA in every bird. It's only going to extend Meteor's punch..

Re: EF Typhoon, Enhanced Maneuverability

Unread postPosted: 14 Nov 2018, 15:12
by sprstdlyscottsmn
The upgrade is very simple and has almost no drawbacks other than a few extra pounds. A LERX here, and small vane there, double digit improvement to lift and turn capability and triple digit improvement to loaded roll rate.

Re: EF Typhoon, Enhanced Maneuverability

Unread postPosted: 14 Nov 2018, 17:17
by marsavian
One of the articles at the time did say that sustained transonic/supersonic turn energy retention took a slight hit. On the other hand subsonic turn rate increases by 15%, wing lift by 25% which helps asymmetric load handling, 50% AoA increase and a 100% roll increase at the higher AoA. Basically it closes any slow speed maneuverability gaps to its two close-coupled canard competitors, Rafale and Gripen, without moving the canard while retaining the very low transonic/supersonic drag of the long coupled canard. The Germans seem particularly keen at adopting it for new buys and mentioned it as well as a 15% thrust increase for the Tornado replacement bid. Such an aircraft would obviously be in with a good shout of being the best overall dogfighter in the world for clients that care about such matters, probably the ME countries would buy some more too with that new specification.

Re: EF Typhoon, Enhanced Maneuverability

Unread postPosted: 17 Nov 2018, 17:23
by mixelflick
marsavian wrote:One of the articles at the time did say that sustained transonic/supersonic turn energy retention took a slight hit. On the other hand subsonic turn rate increases by 15%, wing lift by 25% which helps asymmetric load handling, 50% AoA increase and a 100% roll increase at the higher AoA. Basically it closes any slow speed maneuverability gaps to its two close-coupled canard competitors, Rafale and Gripen, without moving the canard while retaining the very low transonic/supersonic drag of the long coupled canard. The Germans seem particularly keen at adopting it for new buys and mentioned it as well as a 15% thrust increase for the Tornado replacement bid. Such an aircraft would obviously be in with a good shout of being the best overall dogfighter in the world for clients that care about such matters, probably the ME countries would buy some more too with that new specification.


That makes a lot of sense. Makes me wonder how Israel is going to deal with that. For so long, they had the maneuverability edge with the F-15 and 16. And sure, the F-35 is there now but it's not built specifically to dogfight, like Typhoon. They're just so enamored with the gun kill. I suppose the F-35 would just clean up BVR vs. any Typhoons, but again it seems so foreign the Israeli's no longer have the most maneuverable jets.

And yes, I know their pilots are head and shoulders better. Just wondering if they're considering a new super-rate machine. Their choices are limited though. Thrust vectoring F-15/16? These things don't exist. They can't get the F-22. They gave away the Lavi which became the J-10. I know buying Typhoons themselves would be out of the question. It's the dawn of a new day for them. The F-35 will have to wipe the skies clean of its adversaries. Speaks volumes they're buying more, they must be awful confident in its BVR prowess...

Re: EF Typhoon, Enhanced Maneuverability

Unread postPosted: 17 Nov 2018, 20:44
by marsavian
Any ME countries that future Typhoons are sold to will be ones friendly to Israel like now such as Saudi Arabia and the other Gulf countries. It's not going to be sold to Iran or Syria which are their only real enemies now. Even with this AMK update F-35 will still have better AoA limits and handling. F-35s and F-15s is the steady future diet for Israel as they need stealth, payload and range to successfully defend themselves going forward not turn rate capability. Remember traditional enemies like Egypt now have F-16 and Rafale and it's all peaceful on their border.

Re: EF Typhoon, Enhanced Maneuverability

Unread postPosted: 18 Nov 2018, 08:35
by zero-one
mixelflick wrote: And sure, the F-35 is there now but it's not built specifically to dogfight, like Typhoon. They're just so enamored with the gun kill. I suppose the F-35 would just clean up BVR vs. any Typhoons, but again it seems so foreign the Israeli's no longer have the most maneuverable jets.


I'm not sure what you mean by this? The last aircraft that was built "specifically just to dogfight" was the F-16A. During the 80s, aerodynamic sciences came to a point where you did not need to compromise between WVR and BVR combat emphasis.

You can design an aircraft that was good at both roles equally. Case and point, the F-22. It is hands down the best BVR and WVR platform ever built. No compromises.

If what you mean is that the JSF program did not pour most of their resources into WVR combat emphasis then I agree, however the required performance parameter for WVR combat prowess was still very steep. F-16 like E combined with F/A-18 like AoA.

There are only a handful aircraft types that can combine both those abilities
*F-22
*Flankers
*Su-57
*F-35

All other fighters have to pick one characteristic.

Its like they poured only 15% of their resources into the flight performance while other programs poured in 40 - 50 % into that. But because there were so much resources available for the JSF program, that 15% is still bigger than the 50% on other projects.

Re: EF Typhoon, Enhanced Maneuverability

Unread postPosted: 18 Nov 2018, 21:15
by wrightwing
mixelflick wrote:
marsavian wrote:One of the articles at the time did say that sustained transonic/supersonic turn energy retention took a slight hit. On the other hand subsonic turn rate increases by 15%, wing lift by 25% which helps asymmetric load handling, 50% AoA increase and a 100% roll increase at the higher AoA. Basically it closes any slow speed maneuverability gaps to its two close-coupled canard competitors, Rafale and Gripen, without moving the canard while retaining the very low transonic/supersonic drag of the long coupled canard. The Germans seem particularly keen at adopting it for new buys and mentioned it as well as a 15% thrust increase for the Tornado replacement bid. Such an aircraft would obviously be in with a good shout of being the best overall dogfighter in the world for clients that care about such matters, probably the ME countries would buy some more too with that new specification.


That makes a lot of sense. Makes me wonder how Israel is going to deal with that. For so long, they had the maneuverability edge with the F-15 and 16. And sure, the F-35 is there now but it's not built specifically to dogfight, like Typhoon. They're just so enamored with the gun kill. I suppose the F-35 would just clean up BVR vs. any Typhoons, but again it seems so foreign the Israeli's no longer have the most maneuverable jets.

And yes, I know their pilots are head and shoulders better. Just wondering if they're considering a new super-rate machine. Their choices are limited though. Thrust vectoring F-15/16? These things don't exist. They can't get the F-22. They gave away the Lavi which became the J-10. I know buying Typhoons themselves would be out of the question. It's the dawn of a new day for them. The F-35 will have to wipe the skies clean of its adversaries. Speaks volumes they're buying more, they must be awful confident in its BVR prowess...


The Israelis aren't giving up anything in maneuverability, with the F-35. They weren't built to not dogfight. They were built to not have to dogfight. Huge distinction there.

Re: EF Typhoon, Enhanced Maneuverability

Unread postPosted: 19 Nov 2018, 15:32
by mixelflick
OK, understand. Fair points all around...

I'll just be real happy once it's demonstrated that the F-35 doesn't have to dogfight or, failing that... it gets into a dogfight (say, with a Flanker) and wins. It would be a nice pie in the face to these people who feel the need to trash talk it all the time. And there's plenty of them.

Tell you what though... If I was Russia I'd be REAL upset right now. They lack the ability to mass produce stealth, so are left with a mix of various Flankers to defend themselves/deploy to various theaters. The US on the other hand will have thousands of F-35's that are basically invisible assassins flying around. Someone dropped the ball big time over there. In the old days, they'd be sent to Siberia (or worse).

The Soviet Union wouldn't have tolerated it. Russia has to. In all fairness though, who in Russia could develop and mass produce a stealth fighter? Sukhoi (presumably the best Russia has) tried, and largely failed. A few dozen (maybe) SU-57's will be fielded.

BTW, has NATO assigned a code name yet?

Re: EF Typhoon, Enhanced Maneuverability

Unread postPosted: 19 Nov 2018, 16:22
by zero-one
Well I don't think it will require that. Of course that will surely shut up the naysayers. But there are a lot of fighters out there that don't have kills left and right but are highly respected in aviation circles. F-22, Su-27, Typhoon, heck even the Mig-29 is highly regarded in a dogfight even if it lost ALL OF THEM.

I think once the F-35 racks up kills, specifically WVR kills in DACT, has more air show exposure with more high AoA routines, all this "it can't dogfight" notion will fly out the window.

In fact its already dying down. Even in social media, when someone says the F-35 can't fight up close I'm surprised at the number of educated responses to counter.

Re: EF Typhoon, Enhanced Maneuverability

Unread postPosted: 19 Nov 2018, 19:23
by wrightwing
zero-one wrote:Well I don't think it will require that. Of course that will surely shut up the naysayers. But there are a lot of fighters out there that don't have kills left and right but are highly respected in aviation circles. F-22, Su-27, Typhoon, heck even the Mig-29 is highly regarded in a dogfight even if it lost ALL OF THEM.

I think once the F-35 racks up kills, specifically WVR kills in DACT, has more air show exposure with more high AoA routines, all this "it can't dogfight" notion will fly out the window.

In fact its already dying down. Even in social media, when someone says the F-35 can't fight up close I'm surprised at the number of educated responses to counter.


A lot of F-35 kills in Red Flag, etc... are WVR kills. How many times do we need to read anecdotes from Dolby Hanche, about F-16s being unable to get away from F-35s, in WVR, or 4th gen jets having to fly clean, while F-35s carrying a GBU-12 are still beating them in WVR? The data shows the F-35 to be a lethal WVR aircraft. It's as if many posters here either failed to read the "Favorite F-35 Quotes" thread, or simply ignored it.

Re: EF Typhoon, Enhanced Maneuverability

Unread postPosted: 26 Nov 2018, 21:38
by tempest2003
I'm surprised no one has mentioned this but from what I've read everyone seems to think that the sole and primary purpose of the AMK was to increase maneuverability at lower speeds. I believe this assumption is wrong. From what I've read and understood the main purpose was to increase lift efficiency and maneuverability during carriage of heavy weapons like Storm Shadow. The capability should be delivered as part of the Phase 2 Enhancements. Once that has happened perhaps the AMK will get a closer look.

Re: EF Typhoon, Enhanced Maneuverability

Unread postPosted: 27 Nov 2018, 05:50
by charlielima223
tempest2003 wrote:I'm surprised no one has mentioned this but from what I've read everyone seems to think that the sole and primary purpose of the AMK was to increase maneuverability at lower speeds. I believe this assumption is wrong. From what I've read and understood the main purpose was to increase lift efficiency and maneuverability during carriage of heavy weapons like Storm Shadow. The capability should be delivered as part of the Phase 2 Enhancements. Once that has happened perhaps the AMK will get a closer look.


Welcome to F-16.net!! Hope you're finding some good info here. I know I have!

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ng-414684/

Designed under the Eurofighter Enhanced Manoeuvrability programme, the Aerodynamic Modification Kit (AMK) includes additional fuselage strakes and root extensions, which increase the maximum lift created by the Typhoon’s wing by some 25%, Airbus says.

The increased lift produces “critical fighter capabilities” such as an increased turn rate, tighter turning radius and improved nose-pointing when flying at low speeds. AMK is designed to provide easier integration of air-to-surface weapons.
+++
“We saw angle-of-attack values around 45% greater than on the standard aircraft, and roll rates up to 100% higher, all leading to increased agility,” says Eurofighter project pilot Raffaele Beltrame. “The handling qualities appeared to be markedly improved, providing more manoeuvrability, agility and precision while performing tasks representative of in-service operations.

“And it is extremely interesting to consider the potential benefits in the air-to-surface configuration thanks to the increased variety and flexibility of stores that can be carried.”


https://sldinfo.com/2015/07/upgrading-a ... -upgrades/

So far no one currently operating the Typhoon has had this modification added to their fleet of Typhoons

Re: EF Typhoon, Enhanced Maneuverability

Unread postPosted: 27 Nov 2018, 15:49
by zero-one
wrightwing wrote:A lot of F-35 kills in Red Flag, etc... are WVR kills.


This is news to me, do we have a link for this. the F-35 is so good at BVR that It would be odd for them not kill most of their opponents from BVR and WVR will be minimal, mop up jobs or cleaning up the surviving stranglers.

wrightwing wrote:How many times do we need to read anecdotes from Dolby Hanche,


I have read all that, I even have pages upon pages of copy pastas to paste around forums and social media pages centered around Col. Hanche's statements.

The question was, why is the media at large seemingly unaware of this.

Even respectable sites like the infographics show firmly believe that the F-22 and F-35 were "not built to dogfight" and were bested by Typhoons and Rafales. The Su-35 is often labeled there as "the most maneuverable fighter ever built"

The notion that the F-35 is not a good dogfighter is still quite rampant speically outside of hard core enthusiast sites.
So what would it take to erase that.

Why do some planes like the Su-35, Mig-29, Typhoon and F-15 have reputations of being incredible dog fighters even if they were also not "specifically built to dogfight", just like the F-35.

That was my answer. A good airshow will do big to improve the F-35's WVR reputation.

Re: EF Typhoon, Enhanced Maneuverability

Unread postPosted: 27 Nov 2018, 20:06
by wrightwing
You haven't been paying attention to the myriad threads and sources over the years, if you've never heard of F-35s (and F-22s) engaging in and dominating 4th generation aircraft, in WVR BFM engagements.

Re: EF Typhoon, Enhanced Maneuverability

Unread postPosted: 30 Nov 2018, 16:38
by mixelflick
I'd second that notion..

Once the public starts to see a dedicated F-35 demo team performing maneuvers other aircraft can't match, the criticism will begin to melt away. This of course, will bring up "which other aircraft"?

The American airshow audience is used to seeing F-15's, 16's and 18's. The F-35 will look demonstrably better. Now in terms of Russian birds, it gets a little more tricky... The SU-35 demos I've seen are VERY impressive. Less so though, if you consider the subtle nuances. Such as the ability to maintain power/speed into vertical after a 9g turn. Or its 20% better acceleration than most Flankers and still 10% greater than the SU-35. That's hard to demonstrate. The general public isn't this discerning. Nor is it possible to demonstrate how given its stealth, most of these maneuvers won't be necessary as it sneaks up on its quarry silently. There are others...

SA is difficult if not impossible to demonstrate in an airshow routine. Likewise for it's E/W prowess. Or its ability to generate a false target. Or its ability to target SU-35's with say, other aircraft's AMRAAM's or an SM-6. It has so many of these "hidden" advantages that it can't or won't show people, it's a real shame. But we know they're there.

Combat is the real test. And on that score, the F-35 is built for combat - not airshows.

Re: Top BVR fighters

Unread postPosted: 01 Dec 2018, 01:46
by tailgate
I think one must remember that air shows are just that....air shows. Demo guys spend countless hours in and out of their birds practicing a very precise and coordinated flight plan. Many use a blend of cobbled together music to time out their demo routines.
I think what you will find is that these demos blend in a bit of showmanship with aircraft performance. But these routines are far from “ unrestricted”. Many air shows have very strict disciplines that must be maintained as to viewer safety......

My thoughts

Oops, wrong topic, can one of you fine gents put this under the EF manueverabilty thread please..... :bang:

Re: EF Typhoon, Enhanced Maneuverability

Unread postPosted: 01 Dec 2018, 08:54
by zero-one
wrightwing wrote:You haven't been paying attention to the myriad threads and sources over the years, if you've never heard of F-35s (and F-22s) engaging in and dominating 4th generation aircraft, in WVR BFM engagements.


But that wasn't the question.
Yes we, as in us, people who really go deep into research and people who have actually served and are serving have been keeping tabs on the growing number of pilot testimonies that atest to the F-35's close range combat prowess.

But the question was how would your average Joe who still thinks the Su-35 is the best gun fighter ever because of TVC, unlabel the F-35 for being a plane that can't turn, can't climb, can't run.

honestly no amount of testimonies can erase that faster than a 5 second clip of an acrobatic airshow stunt.