EF Typhoon, Enhanced Maneuverability

Military aircraft - Post cold war aircraft, including for example B-2, Gripen, F-18E/F Super Hornet, Rafale, and Typhoon.
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uclass

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Unread post24 Jul 2015, 14:05

wil59 wrote:what! Burst proved he had nothing to envy in English eurofigther.Les drivers want more faced the RAFALE since the 2009 Strike Level!.• During Exercise Joint Warrior 2013-1, rumors say SPECTRA literally gave headaches to Captor-M radar for the Eurofighter, preventing it from hanging Rafale, yet visible and detectable.

And all rumours eminating from training exercises are usually bullsh1t. There's been at least half a dozen or more separate occasions where different sides have given completely opposed stories of what happened following an exercise. And most exercises usually have parameters and restrictions that don't necessarily make them representative. E.g. an F-22 getting involved in a dogfight without simply nailing all the planes with AMRAAMs from 20nm away.

Wrt SPECTRA, it's over-hyped, massively so. Don't get me wrong, it's a decent DRFM-based jamming system, but some of the BS floating around about it reducing effective frontal cross-section to that of an F-22 with active cancellation and reducing fully-bombed-up RCS to 1% of that of an F-18E is simply horse crap. It's effect in Libya was also over-hyped, it made one pre-SEAD raid and the only SAM the Rafales evaded was an SA-8 that was out-of-range - all 15km, 39,000ft and RF CLOS of it.
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uclass

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Unread post24 Jul 2015, 14:14

borg wrote:Between the PakFa and other procurments, they also have 16 new weapons on various test stage.
Upgrading 120 Mig-31 to stay in service way past 2030. Upgrading AWACS, new ELINT platforms, new A-100..

When reading stuff like Cola here States. .
The slogan; -"stupid is, what stupid says" is fitting.

And the heads in VVS are only too happy with western speculating such..

The PAK-FA isn't running to schedule. No way will 12 jets be in service by next year. Look at the number of Su-35s - they came out in 2008.

As regards the Mig-31, they're being upgraded to the BM standard, which is 20 years old itself.

China on the other hand... they're more of a worry because they have the money to develop and roll stuff out fast.
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wil59

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Unread post24 Jul 2015, 17:57

uclass wrote:
wil59 wrote:what! Burst proved he had nothing to envy in English eurofigther.Les drivers want more faced the RAFALE since the 2009 Strike Level!.• During Exercise Joint Warrior 2013-1, rumors say SPECTRA literally gave headaches to Captor-M radar for the Eurofighter, preventing it from hanging Rafale, yet visible and detectable.

And all rumours eminating from training exercises are usually bullsh1t. There's been at least half a dozen or more separate occasions where different sides have given completely opposed stories of what happened following an exercise. And most exercises usually have parameters and restrictions that don't necessarily make them representative. E.g. an F-22 getting involved in a dogfight without simply nailing all the planes with AMRAAMs from 20nm away.

Wrt SPECTRA, it's over-hyped, massively so. Don't get me wrong, it's a decent DRFM-based jamming system, but some of the BS floating around about it reducing effective frontal cross-section to that of an F-22 with active cancellation and reducing fully-bombed-up RCS to 1% of that of an F-18E is simply horse crap. It's effect in Libya was also over-hyped, it made one pre-SEAD raid and the only SAM the Rafales evaded was an SA-8 that was out-of-range - all 15km, 39,000ft and RF CLOS of it.

Therefore, pilot rafale are liar! spectrum sh*t, mica ir / em can not hit f-22;! irst is useless ! so the rafale and eurofigther is useless against the stealth aircraft!
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uclass

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Unread post24 Jul 2015, 19:35

wil59 wrote:
uclass wrote:
wil59 wrote:what! Burst proved he had nothing to envy in English eurofigther.Les drivers want more faced the RAFALE since the 2009 Strike Level!.• During Exercise Joint Warrior 2013-1, rumors say SPECTRA literally gave headaches to Captor-M radar for the Eurofighter, preventing it from hanging Rafale, yet visible and detectable.

And all rumours eminating from training exercises are usually bullsh1t. There's been at least half a dozen or more separate occasions where different sides have given completely opposed stories of what happened following an exercise. And most exercises usually have parameters and restrictions that don't necessarily make them representative. E.g. an F-22 getting involved in a dogfight without simply nailing all the planes with AMRAAMs from 20nm away.

Wrt SPECTRA, it's over-hyped, massively so. Don't get me wrong, it's a decent DRFM-based jamming system, but some of the BS floating around about it reducing effective frontal cross-section to that of an F-22 with active cancellation and reducing fully-bombed-up RCS to 1% of that of an F-18E is simply horse crap. It's effect in Libya was also over-hyped, it made one pre-SEAD raid and the only SAM the Rafales evaded was an SA-8 that was out-of-range - all 15km, 39,000ft and RF CLOS of it.

Therefore, pilot rafale are liar! spectrum sh*t, mica ir / em can not hit f-22;! irst is useless ! so the rafale and eurofigther is useless against the stealth aircraft!

Now you're making up what I said. I simply stated that 'partisan reports' after training exercises are not to be trusted. Clearly if two pilots give conflicting accounts, they aren't both telling the truth.
Last edited by uclass on 25 Jul 2015, 12:54, edited 1 time in total.
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borg

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Unread post24 Jul 2015, 19:41

uclass wrote:
borg wrote:Between the PakFa and other procurments, they also have 16 new weapons on various test stage.
Upgrading 120 Mig-31 to stay in service way past 2030. Upgrading AWACS, new ELINT platforms, new A-100..

When reading stuff like Cola here States. .
The slogan; -"stupid is, what stupid says" is fitting.

And the heads in VVS are only too happy with western speculating such..

The PAK-FA isn't running to schedule. No way will 12 jets be in service by next year. Look at the number of Su-35s - they came out in 2008.

As regards the Mig-31, they're being upgraded to the BM standard, which is 20 years old itself.

China on the other hand... they're more of a worry because they have the money to develop and roll stuff out fast.


You are right about one thing. 12 PakFa will not enter service next year.
It has been clear for some time.

Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation in 2016-2017 years will buy a squadron of fighter of the fifth generation - Deputy Minister
02/07/2015 11:17:40

St. Peterburg.2 July. Interfax-AVN - Plans in 2016-2017 to purchase a squadron of the fifth generation fighter T-50 (PAK FA) remained unchanged, said Deputy Defense Minister Yuri Borisov.

"In 2016-2017 we will buy, as planned, a squadron of the PAK FA. It will be used as a combat unit," - said Yu.Borisov reporters on Thursday at the International Maritime Defense Show IMDS-2015 in St. Petersburg.

The deputy minister noted that the Russian Air Force will buy less PAK FA than originally planned, due to a larger number of purchased Su-35 fighters.
"Flight performance and armament of the Su-35 in many respects superior to their foreign counterparts," - said Yu.Borisov.
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uclass

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Unread post25 Jul 2015, 12:51

So if they buy them in 2017, I imagine they'll arrive by about 2020 best case.

I don't think the statement about the Su-35 holds true either given the rapid uptake of AESA on foreign jets.
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Unread post25 Jul 2015, 13:16

"Flight performance and armament of the Su-35 in many respects superior to their foreign counterparts," - said Yu.Borisov.

Ah..."Borisov said"...now, that explains the origins of your 'operational experience'...funny little clown. :D

EDIT: Who would've thought...?
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/business/article/investigation-ordered-into-string-of-russian-air-force-crashes/526156.html
Since early June the air force has lost two Tu-95 “Bear” strategic bombers, two MiG-29 fighters, an older Su-24 strike jet, a newer Su-34 fighter-bomber, and most recently an Antonov An-12 military transport.

Engine problems appear to be a common theme. One of the Bear bombers careened off a runway when an engine burst into flames on takeoff, and according to one unidentified source quoted by RIA Novosti after the second Tu-95 crash in mid-July, all four engines on that aircraft died mid-flight.
Cheers, Cola
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Unread post30 Jul 2015, 21:26

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... rm-401344/

Laurie Hilditch, head of future capabilities at Eurofighter, says the modification kit should give the aircraft the sort of “knife-fight in a phone box” turning capability enjoyed by rivals such as Boeing’s F/A-18E/F or the Lockheed Martin F-16, without sacrificing the transonic and supersonic high-energy agility inherent to its delta wing-canard configuration.


Very curious statement. For years the Ef Typhoon has always been viewd to have superior turning capability to both the Rhino and the Viper.

I often view the Typhoon as just below the Raptor in terms of high G turning maneuverability. Much like an F-16 only better.

I would of understood if he said, the kit eould have given the Tiffy better slow speed turning capabilities enjoyed by the Rhino. But why did he mention the Viper, the Viper isn't known for great slow speed maneuverability, its better than a Mig-29 but is in absolute trouble in that arena against a Hornet or Rhino.

Anyone know what this means?
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Unread post31 Jul 2015, 14:51

I agree it is a strange statement and strange thing to be messing with at this point. What I figured these were mostly for was to recover agility lost under heavier weapons and external fuel loads that one typically sees now as opposed to the clean interceptor configuration it was built to operate as originally. It is a nice thing to do but I don't really see it as all that important.

But honestly at this point I have tuned out the eurofighter. Until someone puts an operational AESA that he multiple modes of operation enabled in its programming the aircraft to me is largely irrelevant going forward. It will be fine for quick reaction work against non VLO aircraft. It will be fine as a bomb truck. But it will be at a huge disadvantage in an electronically dirtied battle space compared to aircraft with a proper modern fighter radar.

Everything else is just window dressing to me. It will make the EF look great when things are forced to a merge. A merge it is unlikely to get to because of its obsolete radar setup.
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Unread post02 Aug 2015, 11:43

bigjku wrote:I agree it is a strange statement and strange thing to be messing with at this point. What I figured these were mostly for was to recover agility lost under heavier weapons and external fuel loads that one typically sees now as opposed to the clean interceptor configuration it was built to operate as originally. It is a nice thing to do but I don't really see it as all that important.

But honestly at this point I have tuned out the eurofighter. Until someone puts an operational AESA that he multiple modes of operation enabled in its programming the aircraft to me is largely irrelevant going forward. It will be fine for quick reaction work against non VLO aircraft. It will be fine as a bomb truck. But it will be at a huge disadvantage in an electronically dirtied battle space compared to aircraft with a proper modern fighter radar.

Everything else is just window dressing to me. It will make the EF look great when things are forced to a merge. A merge it is unlikely to get to because of its obsolete radar setup.

It isn't that important and I doubt partner nations will adopt it but export nations focus on funny things. The batch of RSAF Typhoons being delivered now are getting AESA according to Combat Aircraft. RAF AESA is expected in 2017, with radar 2 in 2019-2021, which adds an electronic attack function developed by QinetiQ. DASS P4E update is also due in 2020.
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Unread post02 Aug 2015, 15:03

http://www.janes.com/article/53302/typhoon-p2e-upgrade-trials-to-begin-shortly

According to this update which is about as detailed and current as I have seen the situation is roughly as follows. They are just starting flight testing in Meteor and Storn Shadow capability which all partners are committed to. The UK is committed to the next upgrade which basically gets them Brimstone. No one else seems interested in that.

The AESA has not flown yet. They hope it flys later this year in a developmental model. No one has publicly committed to putting it out operationally yet. They don't even know what issues they might hit when it goes in the air. If the Saudis are flying with an AESA I would love to know what radar it is and who makes it. Most likely they were referencing that the aircraft could be fitted with it like all the tranche 2 and 3 aircraft are supposed to be capable of. At the end of 2014 first flight was supposed to be early 2015. Now they hope it is in 2015.

There is probably a bit of a learning curve here as well. Does anyone really think they will just slap this thing in and have full integration from day 1? There are probably years of work to do on this thing to get all the air to air and air to ground modes functioning properly. When I see a contract to actually build a deployed radar I will believe it, not before then. The Germans appear to have not interest in moving forward on most defense matters really.
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Unread post02 Aug 2015, 15:14

The Typhoon modification kit is reshaped strakes and LERX. It's mainly meant for better high AOA performance and better maneuverability under various load conditions like asymmetric loading.
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Unread post02 Aug 2015, 17:28

http://fightersweep.com/2708/eurofighte ... s-upgrade/

The idea was to improve the Typhoon’s already stellar turn rate and radius, and the 36 sorties flown yielded impressive results, as Eurofighter Project Pilot Raffale Beltrame describes: “We saw angle of attack values around 45% greater than on the standard aircraft, and roll rates up to 100% higher, all leading to increased agility. The handling qualities appeared to be markedly improved, providing more maneuverability, agility and precision while performing tasks representative of in-service operations.”

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Unread post06 Aug 2015, 06:26

Hmmm..
http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/indian-a ... ?site=full


Indian Air Force Sukhois Dominate UK Fighter Jets in Combat Exercises


NEW DELHI: In some of the most intense international air combat exercises ever featuring the Indian Air Force, IAF pilots flying Sukhoi Su-30 MKI fighters had a resounding 12-0 scoreline in their favour against Royal Air Force Typhoon jets in Within Visual Range (WVR) dogfighting operations.

In subsequent Large Force Exercises (LFE) which featured combined Eurofighter Typhoon and Su-30 formations, the IAF jets were somewhat less successful but consistently held an edge over the Typhoon.

More...
"When a fifth-generation fighter meets a fourth-generation fighter—the [latter] dies,”
CSAF Gen. Mark Welsh
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uclass

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Unread post06 Aug 2015, 11:08

bigjku wrote:http://www.janes.com/article/53302/typhoon-p2e-upgrade-trials-to-begin-shortly

According to this update which is about as detailed and current as I have seen the situation is roughly as follows. They are just starting flight testing in Meteor and Storn Shadow capability which all partners are committed to. The UK is committed to the next upgrade which basically gets them Brimstone. No one else seems interested in that.

The AESA has not flown yet. They hope it flys later this year in a developmental model. No one has publicly committed to putting it out operationally yet. They don't even know what issues they might hit when it goes in the air. If the Saudis are flying with an AESA I would love to know what radar it is and who makes it. Most likely they were referencing that the aircraft could be fitted with it like all the tranche 2 and 3 aircraft are supposed to be capable of. At the end of 2014 first flight was supposed to be early 2015. Now they hope it is in 2015.

There is probably a bit of a learning curve here as well. Does anyone really think they will just slap this thing in and have full integration from day 1? There are probably years of work to do on this thing to get all the air to air and air to ground modes functioning properly. When I see a contract to actually build a deployed radar I will believe it, not before then. The Germans appear to have not interest in moving forward on most defense matters really.

They aren't flying with it yet but the export version is going on the batch of 24 RSAF aircraft currently being built. Integration began last year. Flight testing is part of that integration.

The learning curve isn't that big at all. The biggest problem with the integration of any electronic system is making sure it's actually been fitted correctly. The actual functional part of the integration test is done at the factory. They don't just design a standalone radar on a bench without testing it in conjunction with the system it's being fitted to. Usually there will exist what's called an iron bird model, which is basically just wires and electronics systems from the aircraft in a room in a building somewhere. Normally it will also have been flown on a test mule of some guise too. What remains in terms of putting it on an IPA is actually better described as commissioning in more traditional engineering terms. It's actually inaccurate to call it integration, since the integration testing has already happened. There's no way it would even being going on a plane if systems integration testing hadn't already occurred. It's likely waiting to be commissioned alongside Meteor, which would make sense if you think about it.

The UK is funding it, so German lethargy is no longer an issue.

https://www.rusi.org/analysis/commentar ... cMuhPlVhLM
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