PAK-DA article
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http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/is-thi ... 1688388366
Yes I know, it's from one of our most hated sources, but nobody else has written about the PAK-DA as of late.
Yes I know, it's from one of our most hated sources, but nobody else has written about the PAK-DA as of late.
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I really think that PAK DA or PAK FA are not really intended to go head-to-head with USAF F-22/F-35 combo or USN carriers and F-35s. I think they are much more intended to combat potential enemies like China or Ukraine or other regional powers. I think Russia is very conscious about their relative position in the world and their strengths/weaknesses. They do not have money or capabilities to design, produce and operate aircraft with all the capabilities of F-22, F-35 or B-2. Designing much less ambitious aircraft with some key advantages against enemy 4th(+) gen fighters and AD systems may well be enough for their needs. I doubt they have any plans to send PAK DA against US Carrier groups as that would very likely end up in a disaster for the Russians. However sending them against Chinese Liaoning with J-15s and supported with Type 052s and Type 054s would be far more doable, let alone engaging less capable enemies.
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hornetfinn wrote:I really think that PAK DA or PAK FA are not really intended to go head-to-head with USAF F-22/F-35 combo or USN carriers and F-35s. I think they are much more intended to combat potential enemies like China or Ukraine or other regional powers. I think Russia is very conscious about their relative position in the world and their strengths/weaknesses. They do not have money or capabilities to design, produce and operate aircraft with all the capabilities of F-22, F-35 or B-2. Designing much less ambitious aircraft with some key advantages against enemy 4th(+) gen fighters and AD systems may well be enough for their needs. I doubt they have any plans to send PAK DA against US Carrier groups as that would very likely end up in a disaster for the Russians. However sending them against Chinese Liaoning with J-15s and supported with Type 052s and Type 054s would be far more doable, let alone engaging less capable enemies.
To add to "hornets" comments:
Exports sales to countries that either can't afford West tech or the West wont sell too, providing much needed cash to an economy has very little supporting it.
You can't shot what you can't see - Unknown
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Did you see the link about the NG superbowl ad?
http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/why-no ... 1683062602
Both incredibly cynical and fairly wrongheaded.
http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/why-no ... 1683062602
Both incredibly cynical and fairly wrongheaded.
Einstein got it backward: one cannot prevent a war without preparing for it.
Uncertainty: Learn it, love it, live it.
Uncertainty: Learn it, love it, live it.
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KamenRiderBlade wrote:http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/is-this-the-shape-of-russias-next-generation-long-range-1688388366
Yes I know, it's from one of our most hated sources, but nobody else has written about the PAK-DA as of late.
True. Do I dare hope he had a single detail that hasn't been online for years?
"There I was. . ."
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Russia's PAK DA next-generation bomber not to fly before 2025
Russia’s next-generation strategic bomber abbreviated as PAK DA (Perspective Airborne Complex of Long-Range Aviation) may perform its debut flight in 2025-2026 and begin to be serial-produced in 2028-2029, Russian Deputy Defense Minister Yuri Borisov said on Thursday.
"We expect the first flight somewhere in 2025-2026 and the beginning of its serial production in 2028-2029," the deputy defense minister said during his visit to the Kazan Aircraft Enterprise in the Volga area.
As the deputy defense minister said earlier, the Perspective Airborne Complex of Long-Range Aviation may be demonstrated to the public already in 2018.
The bomber was initially planned to start arriving for the Russian Armed Forces in 2023-2025 and the first test flights were scheduled for 2019-2020. It emerged later that the bomber’s development had been rescheduled due to the resumed serial production of the Tu-160 strategic missile carrier in its upgraded version Tu-160M2.
The deputy defense minister said earlier the work on the PAK DA wouldn’t be stopped, despite the resumed production of the Tu-160M2.
The Perspective Airborne Complex of Long-Range Aviation (PAK DA) is a Russian next-generation strategic bomber being developed by the Tupolev aircraft manufacturer. R&D work on the bomber started in 2009. The PAK DA will fly at subsonic speeds and carry weapons inside its fuselage. The aircraft’s design will maximally use radar-absorbing materials (the stealth technology).
http://airrecognition.com/index.php/arc ... -2025.html
Russia’s next-generation strategic bomber abbreviated as PAK DA (Perspective Airborne Complex of Long-Range Aviation) may perform its debut flight in 2025-2026 and begin to be serial-produced in 2028-2029, Russian Deputy Defense Minister Yuri Borisov said on Thursday.
"We expect the first flight somewhere in 2025-2026 and the beginning of its serial production in 2028-2029," the deputy defense minister said during his visit to the Kazan Aircraft Enterprise in the Volga area.
As the deputy defense minister said earlier, the Perspective Airborne Complex of Long-Range Aviation may be demonstrated to the public already in 2018.
The bomber was initially planned to start arriving for the Russian Armed Forces in 2023-2025 and the first test flights were scheduled for 2019-2020. It emerged later that the bomber’s development had been rescheduled due to the resumed serial production of the Tu-160 strategic missile carrier in its upgraded version Tu-160M2.
The deputy defense minister said earlier the work on the PAK DA wouldn’t be stopped, despite the resumed production of the Tu-160M2.
The Perspective Airborne Complex of Long-Range Aviation (PAK DA) is a Russian next-generation strategic bomber being developed by the Tupolev aircraft manufacturer. R&D work on the bomber started in 2009. The PAK DA will fly at subsonic speeds and carry weapons inside its fuselage. The aircraft’s design will maximally use radar-absorbing materials (the stealth technology).
http://airrecognition.com/index.php/arc ... -2025.html
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arian wrote:No hypersonic? How is that possible? Everything is hyper-duper-super-sonic these days coming out of Russia.
Yeah, I rember they ran a story about a nuclear-powered M 3+ bomber a while ago. Even .ru domain village idiots raised a brow regarding that one.
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https://vpk.name/news/317381_v_rossii_n ... ak_da.html
This means that not only are they designing it to be difficult to be picked up by radar but difficult for passive sensors or RWRs to pick up the aircraft. Missiles can make decisions and not the aircraft. Say for example you are tasked as a pilot to strike a PACS-4 from 2000kms away. You got a pre-programmed map of the location of where the SAMs can be. You fly to the destination and are about 500kms away so far your presence on radar or passive sensors have not picked you up or know that you are there. You launch the missile from 500kms away as its traveling or using radar horizon to not be seen lets say it gets picked up by radar about 100kms away your missile like other missiles comes with dual homing which can use passive homing or active homing by using its own host radar. Russians have a an antiship missile that can self home to targets from 50kms lets say this missile is equipped with FICs or a photonic host radar and the Chinese claim of lowering the noise 100 times by using lasers to stabilize signals to hear the received signal better happens to be true this means that this missiles self homing range increases significantly. The previous location of the PACS-4 is still stuck in its brain. Its FICS host radar can probably see the SAM from 100kms away or follow its RF emissions. PACS-4 decides to turn off its emissions and use a decoy emitter from a different location. Since the missile has artificial intelligence this irregularity will be noticed in fact it can ignore the decoy source as the missile closes in and lets say its host radar cannot still pick up the PACS-4 but that it eventually would when its closer. Now the next countermeasure is to use a jamming source to suppress the host radar of the missile and try to immediately move the PACS-4 radar away. The missile with its brain is going to make a decision such as how far has it travelled passed 100kms since the PACS-4 has turned off its radar to use a decoy emitter or use a jamming source to suppress its signal. Is the jamming source getting stronger or weaker? Such as if its getting weaker than the host radar will continue to follow its original path to the PACS-4 radar. If the signal is getting stronger further suppressing the host radar and the PACS-4 radar is already currently on the move. The passive sensor on the missile will give the estimates of the strength of the jamming signal and even determine just how far it is. The missile realizes that the jamming source is too strong because it is in a close location and that the target can get away in enough time. It will now follow the jamming source. The missile is following the jamming source and there happens to be another jamming source to move the missile away from the previous jamming source. Than the other jamming source will weaken its signals than another jamming source or the previous jamming source will try to move the missile away again sort of like playing monkey in the middle. Since the missile has a brain it will follow the previous jammer because its smart enough to know that the other jamming source is trying to waste its range and if that current jamming source decides to turn its self off than its own host radar will have enough range to go pick up the EW system's location. Now if the jamming signals were too strong when the missile was previously trying to target the PACS-4 radar and its brain can calculate just how far its travelled lets say its now 20kms away. It can make the decision to either follow the jamming source or continue its path to the PACS-4 radar. So even if the jamming signal is getting stronger as it is 20kms away it can calculate just how strong the jamming source can get as it is getting closer to the PACS-4 radar and if its calculation says that its host radar would be strong enough to track the PACS-4 radar or have the SAR resolution to see the missile defense from 10kms away than it can continue to ignore the jamming source.
This is the biggest importance of what AI on missiles can bring. Aircrafts can have immediate pre-programmed maps of where to go and how far to travel to launch its missiles. If there happens to be hostile aircrafts the bomber will pick it up on its receivers than head back to its location. However current missiles rely on GPS this means it will get picked up immediately or if the aircraft uses GPS. Aircraft using its SAR or radar for ground targets will need to keep this information updated to the missile until the missile is able to use its own sensors which would further endanger the aircraft and give the location of the missile along with the aircraft away from 500kms instead of 100km for example. But if the missiles location is given away from 100kms the aircrafts location wont be compromised(by either enemy radar or passive sensors) as it has never sent any update signals to the missile about the targets location. Having a LPI radar can help but I have heard that there are some passive sensors that can claim to track LPI emissions but nevertheless I think no emission has more stealth.
Missiles having intel which means they can make choices in the middle of the battlefield. Well I guess we can wish them good luck that this project wont get pushed back.
Russian enterprises have begun production of the promising missile carrier PAK DA.
- The Ministry of Defense approved all the technical requirements for the aircraft. Work on the creation of PAK YES has been deployed in a timely manner at Tupolev and at cooperative enterprises, Denis Manturov, head of the RF Ministry of Industry and Trade, told Interfax.
The new bomber-missile carrier will replace the current family of long-range aircraft in the troops: Tu-22M, Tu-95 and Tu-160. PAK DA is designed according to the “flying wing” scheme using stealth technologies. It will be subsonic, the main purpose of the aircraft will be delivery to the launch point of a rocket with artificial intelligence. Depending on the tactical situation, the ammunition will determine when, where, and on what route to fly.
The engine for PAK DA is created by the United Engine Corporation. According to open data, the power plant will provide traction 23 ton-force.
Tests of the missile carrier will be held at the Tupolev base near Moscow in Zhukovsky. Earlier, the head of PJSC "Tupolev" Alexander Konyukhov said that the rolling out of the prototype is scheduled for 2021-2022."
The quote I found significant interest in was this one. "the main purpose of the aircraft will be delivery to the launch point of a rocket with artificial intelligence. Depending on the tactical situation, the ammunition will determine when, where, and on what route to fly
This means that not only are they designing it to be difficult to be picked up by radar but difficult for passive sensors or RWRs to pick up the aircraft. Missiles can make decisions and not the aircraft. Say for example you are tasked as a pilot to strike a PACS-4 from 2000kms away. You got a pre-programmed map of the location of where the SAMs can be. You fly to the destination and are about 500kms away so far your presence on radar or passive sensors have not picked you up or know that you are there. You launch the missile from 500kms away as its traveling or using radar horizon to not be seen lets say it gets picked up by radar about 100kms away your missile like other missiles comes with dual homing which can use passive homing or active homing by using its own host radar. Russians have a an antiship missile that can self home to targets from 50kms lets say this missile is equipped with FICs or a photonic host radar and the Chinese claim of lowering the noise 100 times by using lasers to stabilize signals to hear the received signal better happens to be true this means that this missiles self homing range increases significantly. The previous location of the PACS-4 is still stuck in its brain. Its FICS host radar can probably see the SAM from 100kms away or follow its RF emissions. PACS-4 decides to turn off its emissions and use a decoy emitter from a different location. Since the missile has artificial intelligence this irregularity will be noticed in fact it can ignore the decoy source as the missile closes in and lets say its host radar cannot still pick up the PACS-4 but that it eventually would when its closer. Now the next countermeasure is to use a jamming source to suppress the host radar of the missile and try to immediately move the PACS-4 radar away. The missile with its brain is going to make a decision such as how far has it travelled passed 100kms since the PACS-4 has turned off its radar to use a decoy emitter or use a jamming source to suppress its signal. Is the jamming source getting stronger or weaker? Such as if its getting weaker than the host radar will continue to follow its original path to the PACS-4 radar. If the signal is getting stronger further suppressing the host radar and the PACS-4 radar is already currently on the move. The passive sensor on the missile will give the estimates of the strength of the jamming signal and even determine just how far it is. The missile realizes that the jamming source is too strong because it is in a close location and that the target can get away in enough time. It will now follow the jamming source. The missile is following the jamming source and there happens to be another jamming source to move the missile away from the previous jamming source. Than the other jamming source will weaken its signals than another jamming source or the previous jamming source will try to move the missile away again sort of like playing monkey in the middle. Since the missile has a brain it will follow the previous jammer because its smart enough to know that the other jamming source is trying to waste its range and if that current jamming source decides to turn its self off than its own host radar will have enough range to go pick up the EW system's location. Now if the jamming signals were too strong when the missile was previously trying to target the PACS-4 radar and its brain can calculate just how far its travelled lets say its now 20kms away. It can make the decision to either follow the jamming source or continue its path to the PACS-4 radar. So even if the jamming signal is getting stronger as it is 20kms away it can calculate just how strong the jamming source can get as it is getting closer to the PACS-4 radar and if its calculation says that its host radar would be strong enough to track the PACS-4 radar or have the SAR resolution to see the missile defense from 10kms away than it can continue to ignore the jamming source.
This is the biggest importance of what AI on missiles can bring. Aircrafts can have immediate pre-programmed maps of where to go and how far to travel to launch its missiles. If there happens to be hostile aircrafts the bomber will pick it up on its receivers than head back to its location. However current missiles rely on GPS this means it will get picked up immediately or if the aircraft uses GPS. Aircraft using its SAR or radar for ground targets will need to keep this information updated to the missile until the missile is able to use its own sensors which would further endanger the aircraft and give the location of the missile along with the aircraft away from 500kms instead of 100km for example. But if the missiles location is given away from 100kms the aircrafts location wont be compromised(by either enemy radar or passive sensors) as it has never sent any update signals to the missile about the targets location. Having a LPI radar can help but I have heard that there are some passive sensors that can claim to track LPI emissions but nevertheless I think no emission has more stealth.
Missiles having intel which means they can make choices in the middle of the battlefield. Well I guess we can wish them good luck that this project wont get pushed back.
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Russia begins construction of the first PAK DA strategic bomber - sources
The final assembly of the entire machine should be complete in 2021
MOSCOW, May 26. /TASS/. Russia has commenced construction of its first strategic stealth bomber within the Perspective Aviation Complex for Long-Range Aviation (PAK DA) program, also known as "Product 80" and "Courier", a source in the military-industrial complex told TASS.
"The production of airframe elements will be handled by one of the United Aircraft Corporation (UAC)’s plants; development of working design documentation is complete, material shipping has commenced," the source said.
Another source told TASS that construction of the plane’s cockpit is already underway.
"The final assembly of the entire machine should be complete in 2021," he noted.
The Tupolev Design Bureau’s press service refrained from commenting on construction of the first PAK DA.
In December 2019, Deputy Minister of Defense Alexey Krivoruchko told the Krasnaya Zvezda newspaper that the draft project of the plane had been approved and that the Tupolev Design Bureau began development of the working design documentation, began creation of parts and elements of the test PAK DA units. In February 2020, Krivoruchko announced that the first engine for the plane will begin stand trials this year.
The new plane
It is known that the PAK DA is designed using the flying wing scheme. The machine will feature technologies and materials that reduce its radar visibility (stealth technology). The plane will be subsonic, and will be able to carry current and future cruise missiles, precision bombs and hypersonic weapons, it will be provided with the newest communications and jamming equipment.
(one of many concepts)
The final assembly of the entire machine should be complete in 2021
MOSCOW, May 26. /TASS/. Russia has commenced construction of its first strategic stealth bomber within the Perspective Aviation Complex for Long-Range Aviation (PAK DA) program, also known as "Product 80" and "Courier", a source in the military-industrial complex told TASS.
"The production of airframe elements will be handled by one of the United Aircraft Corporation (UAC)’s plants; development of working design documentation is complete, material shipping has commenced," the source said.
Another source told TASS that construction of the plane’s cockpit is already underway.
"The final assembly of the entire machine should be complete in 2021," he noted.
The Tupolev Design Bureau’s press service refrained from commenting on construction of the first PAK DA.
In December 2019, Deputy Minister of Defense Alexey Krivoruchko told the Krasnaya Zvezda newspaper that the draft project of the plane had been approved and that the Tupolev Design Bureau began development of the working design documentation, began creation of parts and elements of the test PAK DA units. In February 2020, Krivoruchko announced that the first engine for the plane will begin stand trials this year.
The new plane
It is known that the PAK DA is designed using the flying wing scheme. The machine will feature technologies and materials that reduce its radar visibility (stealth technology). The plane will be subsonic, and will be able to carry current and future cruise missiles, precision bombs and hypersonic weapons, it will be provided with the newest communications and jamming equipment.
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(one of many concepts)
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[quote="KamenRiderBlade"]http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/is-this-the-shape-of-russias-next-generation-long-range-1688388366
Yes I know, it's from one of our most hated sources, but nobody else has written about the PAK-DA as of late.[/quotehat
That shape seems more reminiscent of stealth tanker concepts I've seen. And outward canted vertical stabilizers? Not really a flying wing, if you ask me. Will likely follow the trajectory of PAK-FA IMO.
First flight, then it's all downhill from there. Too bad APA wasn't around to salivate over it in an article. Looks primed to hit Australia, and only resurrecting the F-111 can stop it.
Yes I know, it's from one of our most hated sources, but nobody else has written about the PAK-DA as of late.[/quotehat
That shape seems more reminiscent of stealth tanker concepts I've seen. And outward canted vertical stabilizers? Not really a flying wing, if you ask me. Will likely follow the trajectory of PAK-FA IMO.
First flight, then it's all downhill from there. Too bad APA wasn't around to salivate over it in an article. Looks primed to hit Australia, and only resurrecting the F-111 can stop it.
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I really doubt that is shape, if they made S-70 Hunter as real fly wing what is problem to make it in bomber size?
Earlier they talked about price, PAK-DA would be noticable cheaper to be build then new Tu-160. Tu-160 is way to expensive to replace outdated Tu-95. So PAK-DA could have better development path then PAK-FA.
PAK-FA have two stronger opponents, Su-35 which is dirt cheap and S-70 Hunter which is lot more stealthy (and new AF commander is pro-drone orientated).
Earlier they talked about price, PAK-DA would be noticable cheaper to be build then new Tu-160. Tu-160 is way to expensive to replace outdated Tu-95. So PAK-DA could have better development path then PAK-FA.
PAK-FA have two stronger opponents, Su-35 which is dirt cheap and S-70 Hunter which is lot more stealthy (and new AF commander is pro-drone orientated).
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