Eurofighter Typhoon

Military aircraft - Post cold war aircraft, including for example B-2, Gripen, F-18E/F Super Hornet, Rafale, and Typhoon.
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madrat

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Unread post08 Sep 2020, 16:57

mixelflick wrote:As much as I hate to say it, this is one instance where Gripen might make sense.

If there were more Gripens in service I'd even entertain buying used (if I were Austria). Won't ever happen though, Gripen is a niche aircraft for smaller countries with very finite resources. Will be interesting to see how Brazil does with their E's..

Only in the sense of a Gripen-C lease, but even that is not wise when they could lease F-16's and get better capabilities through the MLU programs.
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Tiger05

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Unread post08 Sep 2020, 20:03

Do the Indonesians realize that the Austrian jets are the less capable Eurofighters on the planet? They have no DASS, no IRST, no AMRAAM capability, etc. Austria deliberately downgraded them in a foolish and short-sighted attempt at cutting cost and yet now complains about the 'limited capabilities' of the jets and wants to get rid of them... :roll: Bare-bones Eurofighters only good for basic air policing missions is what Indonesia would get.

They should instead focus on their current Su-27/30 and F-16 fleets (including the planned F-16V acquisition) IMO. Procuring downgraded Eurofighters, and in such limited numbers, as a 'stopgap' measure makes zero sense.
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talkitron

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Unread post08 Sep 2020, 23:35

I doubt they are morons. Likely one of Germany, Italy, Spain or the UK will upgrade them before Indonesia takes possession.
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Tiger05

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Unread post09 Sep 2020, 00:30

They might as well turn to Italy then. They have second-hand Eurofighters Tranche 1 for sale. And unlike Austrian jets, those are actually combat-capable. Would save them a lot of trouble...
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hornetfinn

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Unread post09 Sep 2020, 06:52

loke wrote:Hungary and Czech republic have demonstrated that they can do QRA (and training) with 14 Gripen C/D, in a quite affordable manner. Austria should be able to do the same. More expensive than a trainer, but should be possible for a country the size of Austria. The Czech republic defense expenditure was only 1.78 Billion USD in 2015, increased to 2.7B USD in 2018.

Austria: spending was very low at 2.67B USD in 2015, but has increased annually since then and was 3.37B USD in 2018.

Of course Austria may decide to prioritize other things than air force; perhaps a navy...? :D


Very true and thinking more about it, Finland has only very slightly higher military budget than Austria (like 10-20%). Yet we have over 60 F/A-18C/Ds and are replacing them with roughly similar number of new fighters. We also have much larger and better equipped army and we actually have a navy which totally dwarfs Austrian navy... :mrgreen:

Austria seems to have quite a bit larger number of active duty personnel and that's likely where much of their money goes.

Anyway, Austria should definitely be able to have decent sized fighter force even with their current military budget. Of course they should increase their military budget quite significantly. Should be no problem with their economy, although likely difficult politically.
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jetblast16

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Unread post09 Sep 2020, 14:03

Buy cheap, buy twice :wink:
Have F110, Block 70, will travel
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mixelflick

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Unread post10 Sep 2020, 18:06

To me, Typhoon really is the European F-22. But only in the sense it never quite fulfilled its potential, largely owing to missing critical pieces of the equation. In the most obvious case, no AESA and then ultimately getting one too late. Sure, it has obscene excess power, turns on a dime and carries the Meteor (in most cases). But its radar being its main sensor, it seems it keeps coming up short in that dept.

I believe like most here we have entered into a sensor/shooter pardigm shift. Absent the kind of stealth/sensors the F-22 or F-35 have, I can't see it staying relevant for decades to come. Throw in its obscene cost and you have a no win situation for the Typhoon customer expecting it to be their long term solution. Had Typhoon been mature as a platform 15 years ago it would have been a lot more relavent.

Today, not so much...
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charlielima223

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Unread post11 Sep 2020, 05:15

@ mixelflick
I would say the Typhoon is Europe's attempt to compete with Flanker and the Eagle. Europe is now trying to catch up to the F-22 or even exceed it in the Tempest and the FCAS.
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hornetfinn

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Unread post11 Sep 2020, 09:38

I'd say that Eurofighter Typhoon was and still is a marvellous airframe and avionics were very good when it came to service. It's getting AESA at least a decade later than it should've, but then again CAPTOR-M is one of the best (very possibly the best) mechanically scanned radars around. So the need for a new radar has been less pressing than in some other fighter aircraft. Eurofighter also got some important systems like HMD, imaging IRST, sensor fusion system and DVI (Direct Voice Input) earlier than most other modern fighters. However there has been deficiencies in avionics compared to some competitors. Dassault Rafale and Super Hornet (and F-22) have had AESA radars for a long time. Swiss evaluation showed that Rafale was considered quite significantly better in both DCA and OCA missions even with original PESA radar due to quite significantly better overall avionics even though Rafale is more of a multi-role aircraft where EF Typhoon was designed more for air-to-air missions. I think LTE program will make Eurofighter likely the best 4th gen fighter but that should've happened ten years ago.
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madrat

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Unread post11 Sep 2020, 13:14

If multi-role operations under a Common Airframe was the ultimate goal then the program is fail. The missed the first and foremost important metric of being ready to fulfill the requirement when you enter service in significant numbers. Eurofighter is well beyond its production apex and there is no real significant production on the horizon. Too little too late.

Sure its marvelous but it should have been more marvelous today than it already was largely in 1989. Tempest is their chance to avoid the same pitfall.
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mixelflick

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Unread post11 Sep 2020, 15:59

charlielima223 wrote:@ mixelflick
I would say the Typhoon is Europe's attempt to compete with Flanker and the Eagle. Europe is now trying to catch up to the F-22 or even exceed it in the Tempest and the FCAS.


That's true: From what I've read, Typhoon was built for a requirement to dispatch with the Fulcrum and Flanker. I don't see where it's an Eagle competitor, even assuming competion for foreign orders. The thing is crazy expensive, much more expensive than the F-15, even the new "Super Eagles" flown by SA and Quatar. Hell for that matter, the F-15EX for USAF will likely be less expensive. And an F-15EX buys you a whole lot more capability IMO, unless your sole objective is WVR dogfights. Even then, I would suggest the AIM-9x levels the playing field.
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loke

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Unread post14 Sep 2020, 07:03

hornetfinn wrote:Swiss evaluation showed that Rafale was considered quite significantly better in both DCA and OCA missions even with original PESA radar due to quite significantly better overall avionics even though Rafale is more of a multi-role aircraft where EF Typhoon was designed more for air-to-air missions. I think LTE program will make Eurofighter likely the best 4th gen fighter but that should've happened ten years ago.

I am not sure about the claim that Eurofighter will be the "best 4th gen fighter" -- Although the Swiss eval is getting old it revealed a number of flaws in the Eurofighter and I doubt all of them will be corrected. Also, the Rafale has developed quite a lot since then. There is a plan to update the Rafale sensors including the current AESA radar...most likely by switching to GaN. I am sure the new Typhoon radar will probably become better than the new Rafale radar, however will the difference be large enough to compensate for the remaining flaws of the Typhoon? Few people know the answer to this -- however many of those who know do speak Finnish :)

One of the biggest "flaws" of the Typhoon is the high cost, in spite of a decent number of a/c produced. Whereas Dassault just added a new customer in Greece. Another small but significant win for the French.

One big "advantage" the Typhoon has, is of course the kinematic performance including "true" SC. However an Indian official recently revealed that Rafale can SC at mach1.4 with 4 a2a missiles and one drop tank. Not Typhoon performance, but perhaps not as far off as some might imagined...? The same guy also made it clear that although both Typhoon and Rafale was shortlisted in India, the IAF clearly preferred the Rafale to the Typhoon.
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weasel1962

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Unread post14 Sep 2020, 08:43

If the Austrians do sell the Typhoon to Indonesia, only user to operate it with both Flankers & F-16s.
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hornetfinn

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Unread post14 Sep 2020, 11:21

loke wrote:
hornetfinn wrote:Swiss evaluation showed that Rafale was considered quite significantly better in both DCA and OCA missions even with original PESA radar due to quite significantly better overall avionics even though Rafale is more of a multi-role aircraft where EF Typhoon was designed more for air-to-air missions. I think LTE program will make Eurofighter likely the best 4th gen fighter but that should've happened ten years ago.

I am not sure about the claim that Eurofighter will be the "best 4th gen fighter" -- Although the Swiss eval is getting old it revealed a number of flaws in the Eurofighter and I doubt all of them will be corrected. Also, the Rafale has developed quite a lot since then. There is a plan to update the Rafale sensors including the current AESA radar...most likely by switching to GaN. I am sure the new Typhoon radar will probably become better than the new Rafale radar, however will the difference be large enough to compensate for the remaining flaws of the Typhoon? Few people know the answer to this -- however many of those who know do speak Finnish :)

One of the biggest "flaws" of the Typhoon is the high cost, in spite of a decent number of a/c produced. Whereas Dassault just added a new customer in Greece. Another small but significant win for the French.

One big "advantage" the Typhoon has, is of course the kinematic performance including "true" SC. However an Indian official recently revealed that Rafale can SC at mach1.4 with 4 a2a missiles and one drop tank. Not Typhoon performance, but perhaps not as far off as some might imagined...? The same guy also made it clear that although both Typhoon and Rafale was shortlisted in India, the IAF clearly preferred the Rafale to the Typhoon.


I'm basing that claim on the fact that Eurofighter Typhoon has more thrust, better T/W ratio and larger nose for larger radar and other systems. Problem is that it will happen very, very late and it will likely not generate any new orders. Dassault Rafale is currently (and has pretty much always been) the better all-around fighter aircraft and has had AESA radar for almost a decade. It also seems to have been refreshed technologically much more and more often than EF Typhoon. I also agree that it might well be that the LTE upgrade will also fall short without adequate funding. Then Rafale will likely remain the better fighter aircraft overall and EF Typhoon will always remain the platform with most unfulfilled potential.

I think both Dassault Rafale and EF Typhoon have been very disappointing when it comes to commercial success. There are definitely multiple reasons for this and high cost is likely one of the main ones. Both seem to be very expensive and have often lost to F-16 and F-15E variants due to this. F-16 is likely significantly cheaper than either and it's tough to compete with F-15E variants when it comes to air-to-ground missions and it's no slouch when it comes to air-to-air either. F-15E variants might also be cheaper to buy and possibly even operate due to larger customer base. On the other hand the market for new fighters has been rather slow during the last couple of decades. Best seller have clearly been the Su-30 variants when it comes to export orders.
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hornetfinn

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Unread post14 Sep 2020, 15:24

Interesting former Eurofighter Typhoon pilot interview. Mind you that he is now acting as Head of Marketing for Eurofighter Jagdflugzeug GmbH.

https://hushkit.net/2020/04/09/flying-f ... -klaschka/

This is clearly marketing talk:

Consider today’s threats. The latest surface-to-air missile systems are having their hardware regularly upgraded, are being networked and can change their behaviour almost instantaneously via software-reprogramming. In short, they are constantly evolving, creating a dynamic and challenging threat environment. This means that the advantage of aircraft which use traditional physical stealth technology, which is designed to make the aircraft hard-to-observe by threat radar systems, is eroding. Counter-stealth techniques are on the rise and have been successfully employed as far back as 1993.

This vulnerability against high-end threats with counter-stealth techniques is difficult to address because the basic elements of physical stealth (an aircraft’s skin & surface treatments, internal structure, and configuration) cannot easily be changed. However, in contrast, the Typhoon’s EW systems, which are readily re-programmable, can evolve digitally to maintain the aircraft’s combat advantage even as threats change around it.


Really interesting way of interpreting things... As if EW and physical stealth characteristics are somehow separated from each other. Just a glimpse on radar equations tells us that they go very much hand-in-hand. The radar will always receive physical echos from the physical aircraft and EW system is just trying to interfere with the detection and tracking processes by introducing noise or false echoes which mimic the actual radar signals. So lowering the physical echoes makes a target far more difficult to detect and track no matter what. EW system can further make it more difficult, but nothing stops having both when you design the aircraft for it from the beginning.

Of course next thing he says is this:

How does the Typhoon community generally feel about the F-35?

“Working alongside the F-35 will be the reality of the next decades to come. There are some areas where Typhoon is the benchmark. Exploiting those areas and adding them to the overall capability mix alongside the F-35 will result in quite a lethal fighting force.”


Another interesting take:
What is the biggest myth about the Typhoon?

“Cost. It can be more cost-effective to own, maintain and operate than pretty much anything else in its class. The comparison data is in the public domain if you look in the right places.”

Where? “The data is out there in the public domain. No further comment from Klax here.”


I really wonder what he is referring to here? At least Danish evaluation didn't support this and I don't know of any other real and trustworthy data about operating costs.
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