F-22 Crash

Unread postPosted: 15 May 2020, 17:36
by zero-one
Sad news everyone
https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/your ... ly-ejects/

An F-22 Raptor from Eglin Air Force Base in Florida crashed Friday morning on the base’s test and training range, but its pilot is safe and in stable condition.

The pilot of the F-22 safely ejected, and was taken to the 96th Medical Group hospital at the base for evaluation and observation, Eglin said in a release. The pilot is in stable condition, but was not identified by Eglin.

The jet was from the 43rd Fighter Squadron, part of Eglin’s 325th Fighter Wing. The range where it crashed is about 12 miles northeast of Eglin’s main base.

Re: F-22 Database and photo thread

Unread postPosted: 15 May 2020, 18:10
by sprstdlyscottsmn
at least the pilot is alive

Re: F-22 Database and photo thread

Unread postPosted: 15 May 2020, 19:06
by sersi
A sad day indeed.

Re: F-22 Crash

Unread postPosted: 20 May 2020, 20:16
by Jon
Wonder why the Eglin AFB announcement indicates that the 325th FW is from Eglin when it's assigned to Tyndall AFB?

Re: F-22 Crash

Unread postPosted: 01 Jun 2020, 02:24
by Corsair1963
The F-22 imperative

By: David A. Deptula and Douglas Birkey, Mitchell Institute


The loss of an F-22 Raptor during a training flight on May 15 serves as a wake-up call regarding the size of the Raptor inventory.


Tunnel vision over a decade ago related to counterinsurgency operations in Afghanistan and Iraq saw the nation buy too few F-22s, with just 187 purchased versus the 381 official military requirement. Now, with those wars largely in the rear-view mirror and a new National Defense Strategy, the capability attributes afforded by the F-22 are more important than ever.


These 5th generation stealth aircraft are the crown jewels in the nation’s military arsenal. The recent crash reinforces the need to double down on the F-22 force by fully funding necessary upgrades. No other capability — U.S. or foreign — will come close to the F-22 for years into the future. It is important that budget and inventory management decisions mirror that reality.


The F-22’s primary mission is to secure air superiority — a condition vital for any successful military operation. While the aircraft can also strike targets on the ground with great precision, and conduct intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance inside contested airspace, at its heart the Raptor will remain an air-to-air champion. Because of its vast array of capabilities — not all known — the F-22 is our nation’s greatest conventional deterrent. While the current force size is small relative to other fighter forces, the F-22 has — at a minimum — an order of magnitude greater effect than any other fighter in the world.


The F-22 is a fundamentally unique airplane due to the unparalleled integration of stealth, sensor technology, processing power, and unrivaled flight performance. While many fighters have some elements of this mix, none possess the total package afforded by the F-22. Stealth makes it exceedingly difficult for an enemy to close the kill chain. Sensors and processing power allow it to understand the battlespace with tremendous acumen — allowing F-22s to be at the right place and time to achieve desired effects while minimizing vulnerabilities. Its flight characteristics of speed and maneuverability are simply unequaled by any other aircraft. Anyone questioning the value of the F-22 should consider why friends and foes alike are all pursuing options to develop like-capabilities — they are game-changing.


The fact that the nation needs more F-22s is not rocket science. However, since the F-22 production line closed years ago, this is not a feasible option. Ensuring the F-35 — a plane designed to complement the F-22 with a greater focus on ground attack — does not repeat this same mistake is certainly an important lesson. That aircraft is also an essential investment in our aerial arsenal. In fact, a greater F-35 annual buy-rate becomes more important given the small F-22 force. Future next generation air dominance concepts must also proceed. However, COVID-19-related budget pressures are likely going to delay meaningful advancement in this regard. Plans that exist at the PowerPoint level and theoretical operational concepts must not be confused with concrete capabilities that are able to meet current and future challenges. Further investments in aging designs like the F-16 and F-15, originally designed a half a century ago, simply fail to meet modern requirements. While these aircraft will remain an important part of the inventory out of necessity, their operational utility will diminish given they do not address the challenges that will increasingly dominate the security environment.


This leaves the F-22 as the nation’s keystone air superiority capability. Adversaries respect the aircraft and that is precisely why they are regularly deployed as a signal of resolve. If conflict erupts, F-22s will be at the forefront of operations. This places an extreme imperative upon funding Raptor upgrades to ensure they remain viable for years into the future. The most cost-effective way to increase the capacity of the F-22 force is to upgrade the 33 older block 20 F-22s used for training and test to full combat capability. This effects-based option would result in an additional squadron of F-22s for a minuscule fraction of the cost of attaining 5th generation fighter capacity any other way. For those who focus on cost, are they prepared to pay the price of not having the entire F-22 force at its peak potential? That bill would be measured in strategic objectives surrendered, significant force attrition, and lives lost.


Canceling the F-22’s production with half the military requirement unmet was a tragedy whose impact will be felt for years. However, that is runway behind us. What matters now is how we make the most of the F-22s we do have. Upgrading the older block 20 force of F-22s to full combat capability will deliver a very clear message to potential adversaries. It all comes down to real capability and capacity with the F-22s we possess. Let’s optimize that number. The security challenges of today and tomorrow demand nothing less.

https://www.defensenews.com/opinion/com ... mperative/

Re: F-22 Crash

Unread postPosted: 05 Jun 2020, 14:06
by mixelflick
100% agree.

And while we're at it, maximize whatever the F-35 can contribute to the air to air game. I understand that's just a part of what it was designed to do. But it's an important part, as this article states and we can't afford to NOT maximize it..

A dedicated air to air squadron or 3 would be a good starting point. Best practices could be shared with the rest of the force, thus ensuring a robust air to air capablity until we get PCA/F/A-XX..

Re: F-22 Crash

Unread postPosted: 06 Jun 2020, 00:13
by BDF
mixelflick wrote:100% agree.

And while we're at it, maximize whatever the F-35 can contribute to the air to air game. I understand that's just a part of what it was designed to do. But it's an important part, as this article states and we can't afford to NOT maximize it..

A dedicated air to air squadron or 3 would be a good starting point. Best practices could be shared with the rest of the force, thus ensuring a robust air to air capablity until we get PCA/F/A-XX..


Yeah I think they could upgrade those Block 20 jets as they cycle through MLU in a couple years (assuming they're also slated for MLU.) They need to add a IRST, upgrade the CIPs, MLD, LO coatings and HMD and cockpit screen updates among the mechanical upgrades that are slated for MLU (pumps, valves etc.)

Re: F-22 Crash

Unread postPosted: 06 Jun 2020, 14:02
by weasel1962

Re: F-22 Crash

Unread postPosted: 08 Jun 2020, 04:31
by Corsair1963
Buying more new F-35's may make more sense. Especially, at that price............ :?

Re: F-22 Crash

Unread postPosted: 08 Jun 2020, 13:51
by disconnectedradical
Corsair1963 wrote:Buying more new F-35's may make more sense. Especially, at that price............ :?

Flat out wrong. An upgraded F-22 will be a much better air to air fighter than F-35. $1.7 billion only gets you 21 more F-35As, nowhere near as capable as upgraded F-22s.

Airpower does not revolve around F-35. Tired of seeing F-35 promoted as answer for everything, or that it can replace F-22. It can't, that's what PCA is for. And hopefully they get the full PCA fleet so we won't have an F-15EX situation in the future, except with F-22s.

Re: F-22 Crash

Unread postPosted: 08 Jun 2020, 14:45
by mixelflick
Let each platform do what it does best.

That means upgraded F-22's, F-35's if necessary to compliment and... I'm not sure what they're counting on the F-15EX doing. Homeland security stuff, or possibly flying arsenal plane/carrier of hypersonic air to air weapons. Hard to go wrong using the best tool for the job, vs. trying to modify the tool to do something it wasn't designed for.

Re: F-22 Crash

Unread postPosted: 09 Jun 2020, 01:50
by BDF
disconnectedradical wrote:Flat out wrong. An upgraded F-22 will be a much better air to air fighter than F-35. $1.7 billion only gets you 21 more F-35As, nowhere near as capable as upgraded F-22s.

Airpower does not revolve around F-35. Tired of seeing F-35 promoted as answer for everything, or that it can replace F-22. It can't, that's what PCA is for. And hopefully they get the full PCA fleet so we won't have an F-15EX situation in the future, except with F-22s.


Yeah I think the enthusiasm for the F-35 kinda gets carried away a bit. Its a great jet but it's a compliment not a replacement for the F-22. I think that it makes sense to upgrade the entire fleet to a common MLU configuration that leverages as much technology from the F-35 program as practical. Apparently the USAF as already allocated about $1B towards a new sensor, presumably an IRST. It would make a lot of sense to amortize that expenditure over the entire fleet. Plus, in an major crisis, that would enable a further 33 jets available. During ODS they deployed the F-117 FTU w/ the IPs after the war started so this is not unprecedented.

Re: F-22 Crash

Unread postPosted: 09 Jun 2020, 05:36
by Corsair1963
disconnectedradical wrote:
F-22 will be a much better air to air fighter than F-35. $1.7 billion only gets you 21 more F-35As, nowhere near as capable as upgraded F-22s.

Airpower does not revolve around F-35. Tired of seeing F-35 promoted as answer for everything, or that it can replace F-22. It can't, that's what PCA is for. And hopefully they get the full PCA fleet so we won't have an F-15EX situation in the future, except with F-22s.



The difference is the F-35's would be brand new. While, the F-22's on the other hand are the oldest Raptors in the inventory.

In addition there is no air threat that the F-35 can't handle just as well as the F-22. While, the former is a much more versatile strike fighter.

That said, upgrading a dozen early F-22's could hold some merit. As they could be quickly used for attrition for any Raptors lost "unexpectedly".

Oh, and the F-22 isn't a much better air to air fighter than the F-35. (better maybe much better hardly) :roll:

Re: F-22 Crash

Unread postPosted: 09 Jun 2020, 15:28
by zero-one
Corsair1963 wrote:In addition there is no air threat that the F-35 can't handle

I agree with this but I believe what you mean is one on one.
yes the F-35 should be more capable than any other potential adversary 1 on 1 but there will be F-35 operators (like S.Korea or Japan) that will contend will large numbers of Chinese 4th gens.

Corsair1963 wrote:just as well as the F-22.

I'll have to disagree with the "just as well" part. If you listen to the fighter pilot podcast for both the F-22 and F-35, I noticed a stark difference between how the pilots of each platform describe their aircraft's ability in the air to air arena.

Now while both are confident that they can win any air to air, Col. Terry Scott from the Raptor is just brimming with confidence and lauding how the Raptor was built from the ground up for air to air. The F-35 pilot on the other hand was less confident and said that the F-35 is not a purpose built air to air machine like the Raptor and was built more for SEAD/DEAD roles.

Gen. Mike Hostage also said that he needs 8 F-35s where he will only need 2 Raptors for a target. I understand that this is simply an analogy the point is simply that he needs much more F-35s than F-22s.

This isn't always possible specially for limited forward deployed units. And while the F-35 is more fuel efficient and has cost less to maintain per Flight hour than the F-22, I don't think 8 F-35s would cost less than 2 F-22s.

Re: F-22 Crash

Unread postPosted: 09 Jun 2020, 17:58
by BDF
zero-one wrote:I'll have to disagree with the "just as well" part. If you listen to the fighter pilot podcast for both the F-22 and F-35, I noticed a stark difference between how the pilots of each platform describe their aircraft's ability in the air to air arena.

Now while both are confident that they can win any air to air, Col. Terry Scott from the Raptor is just brimming with confidence and lauding how the Raptor was built from the ground up for air to air. The F-35 pilot on the other hand was less confident and said that the F-35 is not a purpose built air to air machine like the Raptor and was built more for SEAD/DEAD roles.

Gen. Mike Hostage also said that he needs 8 F-35s where he will only need 2 Raptors for a target. I understand that this is simply an analogy the point is simply that he needs much more F-35s than F-22s.

This isn't always possible specially for limited forward deployed units. And while the F-35 is more fuel efficient and has cost less to maintain per Flight hour than the F-22, I don't think 8 F-35s would cost less than 2 F-22s.


Yes the AF has made it clear that the F-35 is not a F-22 replacement in the A-A realm. They were at one point willing to trade several hundred Lightnings for about 100 Raptors (I can't recall the exact number.) They're spending billions to upgrade the F-22 fleet as well. If the F-35 was close in capability I doubt they'd do that. Further we have had many AF brass both retired and active stating we don't have enough F-22s for the high end fight. The F-35 is a great jet, its important for the AF's future, but it isn't a F-22 replacement. I just hope we can find the money to procure a PCA. Until then, upgrading the last 33 jets to the Block 30+ standard makes sense.

Re: F-22 Crash

Unread postPosted: 09 Jun 2020, 18:37
by marauder2048
BDF wrote: If the F-35 was close in capability I doubt they'd do that. Further we have had many AF brass both retired and active stating we don't have enough F-22s for the high end fight. The F-35 is a great jet, its important for the AF's future, but it isn't a F-22 replacement.


Or it's a function of the fact that pulling large quantities of F-35s off to do A2A means you have nothing
aside from the B-2 that can do first-day-of-the-way stand-in/near-standoff attack.

A good chunk of achieving air superiority is through OCA which really only the F-35 can do.

It's not that upgrading the F-22 doesn't make sense it's just the tradeoffs: the F-35 will continue to get
cheaper and the F-22 upgrades will likely only increase in cost (since its a function of fleet size which
can only move one way now).

Re: F-22 Crash

Unread postPosted: 09 Jun 2020, 22:15
by BDF
marauder2048 wrote:A good chunk of achieving air superiority is through OCA which really only the F-35 can do.


The F-35 is the only platform that can perform offensive counter air?

I don't disagree that F-22 upgrades will always be expensive, especially compared to the industrial sized F-35 force, but that doesn't mean its of less value when looking at a budget and capabilities perspective. The real problem is this nonsense of buying F-15EXs. We should buy more F-35s and increase production rate.

Re: F-22 Crash

Unread postPosted: 09 Jun 2020, 22:54
by marauder2048
BDF wrote:
marauder2048 wrote:A good chunk of achieving air superiority is through OCA which really only the F-35 can do.


The F-35 is the only platform that can perform offensive counter air?


The B-1, F/A-18E/F, F-16, F-15E(X) can't penetrate
The F-22 can't carry heavy A2G loads
The B-2 is too small in numbers
The B-21 won't be around in force for a decade

That leaves more expensive* standoff options which will quickly be exhausted against the high-end threat.

* the end of the INF Treaty has the potential to change this but finding credible cost estimates for the
new weapons in this class is really hard


BDF wrote:I don't disagree that F-22 upgrades will always be expensive, especially compared to the industrial sized F-35 force, but that doesn't mean its of less value when looking at a budget and capabilities perspective. The real problem is this nonsense of buying F-15EXs. We should buy more F-35s and increase production rate.


The money does have to come from somewhere. But I agree it should be at the expense of the F-15EX buy.

Re: F-22 Crash

Unread postPosted: 10 Jun 2020, 00:43
by BDF
marauder2048 wrote:
BDF wrote:
marauder2048 wrote:A good chunk of achieving air superiority is through OCA which really only the F-35 can do.


The F-35 is the only platform that can perform offensive counter air?


The B-1, F/A-18E/F, F-16, F-15E(X) can't penetrate
The F-22 can't carry heavy A2G loads
The B-2 is too small in numbers
The B-21 won't be around in force for a decade

That leaves more expensive* standoff options which will quickly be exhausted against the high-end threat.

* the end of the INF Treaty has the potential to change this but finding credible cost estimates for the
new weapons in this class is really hard


Brain fart on my part, I thought you were referring to the A-A mission of the construct. Agree completely the most effective path to air supremacy is to kill them on the ground. My impression from reading unclassified materials and hearing interviews with various professionals (AF Brass, analysts etc.) is that in the high end fight a high-end A-A capability is still required to enable even VLO assets to access targets. Particularly in the opening days of the conflict, hence F-22s. Your argument is more compelling to me, vice the vis-à-vis intrinsic A-A capability of the two platforms. I remain skeptical that the two are nearly equal in the A-A domain.

To the question of bringing Block 20 jets up to 30+ standard, one problem is the low MCR of the F-22 fleet exacerbated by its small size. Most of the low MCR is because of LO restore. Now if you could improve MCR with LO system improvements by even 12% you’d break even with the idea of bringing 33 jets up to Block 30 standards (w/o this upgrade obviously.) Any improvement over 12% MCR is just gravy at that point. I’d be fine with that approach, especially if it’s less costly. I know that one of the areas they are looking at for the MLU is signature improvements so I’d assume that improvements to LO restore and durability are in the mix as well.

I’ve recently read a CSBA paper on future force structure and its interesting that they do not believe that 5th Gen platforms will not be able to operate in what they’re calling Highly Contested Environments. In this context 5th Gen fighters will not be able to penetrate and persist without a more traditional IADS rollback. The authors contend that this is going to be too slow and that we must be able to penetrate and carry out attacks simultaneously with rolling back IADS operations. Even more interesting is that the authors suggest that a PCA must be manned and fully capable of operating autonomously without requiring network support. a

Re: F-22 Crash

Unread postPosted: 10 Jun 2020, 03:07
by Corsair1963
zero-one wrote:
I agree with this but I believe what you mean is one on one.
yes the F-35 should be more capable than any other potential adversary 1 on 1 but there will be F-35 operators (like S.Korea or Japan) that will contend will large numbers of Chinese 4th gens.


I would disagree as with the F-35's advantage is Sensor Fusion. It should do better than the F-22 with multiple aircraft. Especially, considering far more F-35's would be available in the first place...Actually, the F-35 is ideally suited to take on a large number of opponents.

I'll have to disagree with the "just as well" part. If you listen to the fighter pilot podcast for both the F-22 and F-35, I noticed a stark difference between how the pilots of each platform describe their aircraft's ability in the air to air arena.

Now while both are confident that they can win any air to air, Col. Terry Scott from the Raptor is just brimming with confidence and lauding how the Raptor was built from the ground up for air to air. The F-35 pilot on the other hand was less confident and said that the F-35 is not a purpose built air to air machine like the Raptor and was built more for SEAD/DEAD roles.


Sorry, a number of other pilots would disagree. Even the former F-35 Chief Test Pilot (Jon Beesley) is on the record that both aircraft operate very similarly. Except for super cruise of course...

Gen. Mike Hostage also said that he needs 8 F-35s where he will only need 2 Raptors for a target. I understand that this is simply an analogy the point is simply that he needs much more F-35s than F-22s.

This isn't always possible specially for limited forward deployed units. And while the F-35 is more fuel efficient and has cost less to maintain per Flight hour than the F-22, I don't think 8 F-35s would cost less than 2 F-22s.



Old quote and I doubt Gen. Hostage beliefs that today with the far more mature F-35 now in service. As a matter of fact I doubt you would find any Senior USAF Leader or F-22/F-35 Pilot that would stand behind that..........

Re: F-22 Crash

Unread postPosted: 10 Jun 2020, 03:11
by Corsair1963
marauder2048 wrote:

BDF wrote:
I don't disagree that F-22 upgrades will always be expensive, especially compared to the industrial sized F-35 force, but that doesn't mean its of less value when looking at a budget and capabilities perspective. The real problem is this nonsense of buying F-15EXs. We should buy more F-35s and increase production rate.


The money does have to come from somewhere. But I agree it should be at the expense of the F-15EX buy.



Clearly, upgrading at least some of the older F-22's and buying more F-35's. Makes far more sense than acquiring the F-15EX...
:shock:

Re: F-22 Crash

Unread postPosted: 10 Jun 2020, 03:22
by disconnectedradical
Corsair1963 wrote:Old quote and I doubt Gen. Hostage beliefs that today with the far more mature F-35 now in service. As a matter of fact I doubt you would find any Senior USAF Leader or F-22/F-35 Pilot that would stand behind that..........


F-35 can do many things, but replacing F-22s is not one of them. Upgraded F-22 will be much more capable in air to air, since it will get many of the sensor capabilities that F-35 has.

If you doubt this, then provide evidence that somehow F-35 can directly replace an upgraded F-22.

Re: F-22 Crash

Unread postPosted: 10 Jun 2020, 03:47
by Corsair1963
disconnectedradical wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:Old quote and I doubt Gen. Hostage beliefs that today with the far more mature F-35 now in service. As a matter of fact I doubt you would find any Senior USAF Leader or F-22/F-35 Pilot that would stand behind that..........


F-35 can do many things, but replacing F-22s is not one of them. Upgraded F-22 will be much more capable in air to air, since it will get many of the sensor capabilities that F-35 has.

If you doubt this, then provide evidence that somehow F-35 can directly replace an upgraded F-22.



Sorry, the F-22 isn't getting many of the sensor capabilities of the F-35. Honestly, surprising you would even mention such a thing. As it has been discussed here at length.....

In addition the F-35 has no serious threat today or even in the foreseeable future. So, hardly matters if the F-22 is or "isn't more capable. (i.e. Air Superiority Role)

Re: F-22 Crash

Unread postPosted: 10 Jun 2020, 09:04
by zero-one
Corsair1963 wrote:Old quote and I doubt Gen. Hostage beliefs that today with the far more mature F-35 now in service. As a matter of fact I doubt you would find any Senior USAF Leader or F-22/F-35 Pilot that would stand behind that..........


Its not old, it was barely 6 years ago and the capabilities of the F-35 now were already known back then. In fact if you look at his statements, he said that if an F-35 was to be caught in a dogfight it would have the maneuverability and thrust to weight of an F-16.

So he was not referring to a block 2A F-35 in 2014 which was limited to 3Gs IIRC, he was already referring to a mature block 3F version with a full 9G envelope. He already knew what the F-35 would be capable of in 2020 and thats where he based his statements.

Sorry, the F-22 isn't getting many of the sensor capabilities of the F-35. Honestly, surprising you would even mention such a thing. As it has been discussed here at length.....


Much of the F-35's sensor advantages over the F-22 are more pronounced in the A-G role than the A-A role. in fact in the
A-A the F-22 still holds some major advantages in sensors over the F-35, the AN/ALR-94 has 30 receiver antennas where as the F-35's AN-ASQ-239 only has 10. The APG-77(v1) uses the same T/R modules as the APG-81 and its bigger and more powerful. These 2 systems provide the Raptor with more than enough SA to conduct A-A.

And contrary to what Ret. Col David Chip Burke said about speed and maneuverability being the "least impressive" thing about the F-22, Ret Col. Terry Scott said in the fighterpilot podcast that the Raptor's flight control were his choice when asked what was the F-22's best strong suite. He also said the super cruise was crucial in that the difference between .9 mach and 1.5 mach is so great because the enemy cannot defend.

Re: F-22 Crash

Unread postPosted: 10 Jun 2020, 09:45
by hornetfinn
zero-one wrote:Much of the F-35's sensor advantages over the F-22 are more pronounced in the A-G role than the A-A role. in fact in the
A-A the F-22 still holds some major advantages in sensors over the F-35, the AN/ALR-94 has 30 receiver antennas where as the F-35's AN-ASQ-239 only has 10. The APG-77(v1) uses the same T/R modules as the APG-81 and its bigger and more powerful. These 2 systems provide the Raptor with more than enough SA to conduct A-A.


I agree with the radar, although the difference is not nearly as big as between F-15 and F-16 for example. F-35 has huge antenna for its size.

I think the number of EW system antennas is not necessarily indicative of the capabilties of the system. It might mean that AN/ASQ-239 antennas are more capable individually than those in AN/ALR-94. It seems that they are supposed to be about equally capable systems but AN/ASQ-239 is significantly lower cost and weight due to using newer technology:

https://www.aviationtoday.com/2006/04/0 ... rotection/

At the EW system level, the F-35 will about equal the F-22 in performance, Branyan predicts. But because the newer aircraft's EW suite was developed from the start for reliability and affordability, it promises twice the reliability at half the cost, compared with legacy aircraft.


I agree that F-22 has supercruise and the kind of supersonic acceleration and maneuverability that F-35 don't have and never will. But avionics wise, I think F-35 is surprisingly close to F-22 in most capabilities and has some capabilities that the F-22 doesn't have and probably never will (long range EO system, EO DAS and HMD). Of course we can debate what importance each of those have in air-to-air combat.

Re: F-22 Crash

Unread postPosted: 10 Jun 2020, 09:57
by Corsair1963
zero-one wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:Old quote and I doubt Gen. Hostage beliefs that today with the far more mature F-35 now in service. As a matter of fact I doubt you would find any Senior USAF Leader or F-22/F-35 Pilot that would stand behind that..........


Its not old, it was barely 6 years ago and the capabilities of the F-35 now were already known back then. In fact if you look at his statements, he said that if an F-35 was to be caught in a dogfight it would have the maneuverability and thrust to weight of an F-16.

So he was not referring to a block 2A F-35 in 2014 which was limited to 3Gs IIRC, he was already referring to a mature block 3F version with a full 9G envelope. He already knew what the F-35 would be capable of in 2020 and thats where he based his statements.

Sorry, the F-22 isn't getting many of the sensor capabilities of the F-35. Honestly, surprising you would even mention such a thing. As it has been discussed here at length.....


Much of the F-35's sensor advantages over the F-22 are more pronounced in the A-G role than the A-A role. in fact in the
A-A the F-22 still holds some major advantages in sensors over the F-35, the AN/ALR-94 has 30 receiver antennas where as the F-35's AN-ASQ-239 only has 10. The APG-77(v1) uses the same T/R modules as the APG-81 and its bigger and more powerful. These 2 systems provide the Raptor with more than enough SA to conduct A-A.

And contrary to what Ret. Col David Chip Burke said about speed and maneuverability being the "least impressive" thing about the F-22, Ret Col. Terry Scott said in the fighterpilot podcast that the Raptor's flight control were his choice when asked what was the F-22's best strong suite. He also said the super cruise was crucial in that the difference between .9 mach and 1.5 mach is so great because the enemy cannot defend.


You're “Picking and Choosing” what you want to hear. Sorry, the consensus of sources don't agree with much of your assessment.

Sure the F-22 does have some advantages. Especially, at height and supercruise. Yet, in some respects that is even questionable. Because at supercruise speeds even on Military Power. You're still consuming greats amounts of fuel. This in turn limits your time on station. While, your infrared signature is much much higher. (not good for a stealth fighter) So, again what's the benefit??? This is not to say it doesn't have a benefit. Yet, to what extent and how often would you actually use it in most scenarios??? It's all about trade offs...


Honestly, your back to the same old argument we've heard for years now. Back to close in dogfights with guns blazing! :bang:


Yet, in the "Real World" it will be a BVR Fight at some distance in the majority of cases. This is the world the F-35 with it's advantages in Stealth and Sensor Fusion thrive in....


My point was just asking the question is the trade off of upgrading the older F-22's vs buying new F-35's worth it... :|


Answer...........maybe not???

Re: F-22 Crash

Unread postPosted: 10 Jun 2020, 10:02
by disconnectedradical
hornetfinn wrote:I agree that F-22 has supercruise and the kind of supersonic acceleration and maneuverability that F-35 don't have and never will. But avionics wise, I think F-35 is surprisingly close to F-22 in most capabilities and has some capabilities that the F-22 doesn't have and probably never will (long range EO system, EO DAS and HMD). Of course we can debate what importance each of those have in air-to-air combat.


Number of antennas don't tell how capable a system is, it may be better to look at band coverage instead.

F-22 upgrade funding includes new sensors, including a "multispectral" sensor so eventually F-22 may get an IRST and also get software to have DAS enabled in the MLD. Once these upgrades are included, F-22 will be much more effective at air to air than F-35.

Corsair1963 wrote:Sorry, the F-22 isn't getting many of the sensor capabilities of the F-35. Honestly, surprising you would even mention such a thing. As it has been discussed here at length.....

In addition the F-35 has no serious threat today or even in the foreseeable future. So, hardly matters if the F-22 is or "isn't more capable. (i.e. Air Superiority Role)


F-22 upgrade is manned to have new sensors including a "multispectral" sensor which likely will be IRST. With that, and with software upgrades that enable DAS, there is not much difference in sensor capabilities between upgraded F-22 and F-35.

Of course it matters that we have a more capable air to air fighter than F-35, that's what F-22 is meant for, and why they're still spending money on upgrades, and why they're also ramping up on PCA to go even beyond what F-22 can do. F-35 is not the end all be all.

Re: F-22 Crash

Unread postPosted: 10 Jun 2020, 10:05
by Corsair1963
You will "never" be able to upgrade the F-22 to the same level of the F-35 in many respects. Honestly, this has been discussed at length more than once.

Re: F-22 Crash

Unread postPosted: 10 Jun 2020, 10:07
by disconnectedradical
Corsair1963 wrote:You will "never" be able to upgrade the F-22 to the same level of the F-35 in many respects. Honestly, this has been discussed at length more than once.


We're not talking strike, or air to ground. This is air to air. Give evidence that F-22 can't be upgraded to same level as F-35 for air to air.

Re: F-22 Crash

Unread postPosted: 10 Jun 2020, 10:14
by Corsair1963
disconnectedradical wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:You will "never" be able to upgrade the F-22 to the same level of the F-35 in many respects. Honestly, this has been discussed at length more than once.


We're not talking strike, or air to ground. This is air to air. Give evidence that F-22 can't be upgraded to same level as F-35 for air to air.


The infrared sensors for one. Hell, the cockpit couldn't use the existing F-35 Helmet. Because it wouldn't fit the pilot within the cockpit. So, a compromise had to be found....


Overall the F-35 has much better Sensor Fusion and always will....

BTW - You never answered my question on what threat the F-22 could counter but the F-35 could not??? :wink:

Re: F-22 Crash

Unread postPosted: 10 Jun 2020, 10:19
by Corsair1963
disconnectedradical wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:You will "never" be able to upgrade the F-22 to the same level of the F-35 in many respects. Honestly, this has been discussed at length more than once.


We're not talking strike, or air to ground. This is air to air. Give evidence that F-22 can't be upgraded to same level as F-35 for air to air.



Your argument is like making a case for a limited number of F4U Corsairs over a large number of F6F Hellcats. Stating the Corsair is far more capable....


Yet, the Corsair and Hellcat are equally capable of defeating the Zero! :wink:

Re: F-22 Crash

Unread postPosted: 10 Jun 2020, 10:31
by disconnectedradical
Corsair1963 wrote:
disconnectedradical wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:You will "never" be able to upgrade the F-22 to the same level of the F-35 in many respects. Honestly, this has been discussed at length more than once.


We're not talking strike, or air to ground. This is air to air. Give evidence that F-22 can't be upgraded to same level as F-35 for air to air.


The infrared sensors for one. Hell, the cockpit couldn't use the existing F-35 Helmet. Because it wouldn't fit the pilot within the cockpit. So, a compromise had to be found....


Overall the F-35 has much better Sensor Fusion and always will....

BTW - You never answered my question on what threat the F-22 could counter but the F-35 could not??? :wink:


Your fanboying of F-35 is ridiculous. And besides, "countering" is not a simple yes/no, in counter air like OCA/DCA F-22 will be more effective.

I said it again and again, funding for F-22 upgrades includes a "multispectral" sensor, very likely IRST, and helmet mounted display.

https://www.ang.af.mil/Portals/77/docum ... 122634-043

page 81:
"ANG F-22s require a multi-spectral sensor upgrade. The current sensor suite is
optimized to search, detect, track, identify, engage, and survive against threats operating within a
specific band of the radio frequency spectrum. A multi-spectral sensor system exploits a target’s
signature across the entire electromagnetic spectrum, providing alternative means outside the
currently exploited spectrum to detect and track adversaries. Multi-spectral systems provide
alternatives that are less susceptible to electronic attack or other advanced sensor
countermeasures. The F-22 needs to implement out-of-band multi-spectral sensor suites to
increase lethality and survivability against peer and emerging threats. A multi-spectral sensor
capability, combined with the current F-22 sensor suite, will allow the F-22 to maintain an
advantage over peer adversaries. All 20 ANG F-22s require this upgrade."

page 83
"ANG F-22 pilots require a night vision compatible, color, helmet-mounted
display (HMD). Multiple simulations and an operational utility assessment conducted by the
422nd Test and Evaluation Squadron demonstrated that using an HMD provides a distinct firstshot, first-kill advantage. Although this advantage applies primarily to within-visual-range
engagements, the HMD also substantially increases situational awareness during beyond-visualrange intercepts. HMD technology provides the capability to cue and verify off-boresight sensor
and weapon information through the display of weapons employment zones and visual cues of
target and friendly aircraft locations. Originally conceived as a weapons cueing system, the HMD
has evolved into a force multiplier because of its ability to enhance situational awareness during
all phases of flight and across all mission sets. For example, the HMD provides threat
information visual cues while the pilot is "eyes-out" of the cockpit, warning of dangers and
providing critical information to allow the pilot to maneuver the aircraft away from terrain or
threats. Similarly, F-22s tasked with identifying targets of interest during homeland defense
missions would be better able to quickly and efficiently visually locate and identify small aircraft
or unmanned systems. Lack of an HMD limits the lethality of the F-22, and puts the aircraft at a
disadvantage in certain situations against less formidable and capable aircraft. The acquisition of
an HMD for each ANG F-22 pilot will greatly increase the lethality and survivability of the F-22."

Re: F-22 Crash

Unread postPosted: 10 Jun 2020, 10:44
by Corsair1963
disconnectedradical wrote:
Your fanboying of F-35 is ridiculous. And besides, "countering" is not a simple yes/no, in counter air like OCA/DCA F-22 will be more effective.

I said it again and again, funding for F-22 upgrades includes a "multispectral" sensor, very likely IRST, and helmet mounted display.

https://www.ang.af.mil/Portals/77/docum ... 122634-043

page 81:
"ANG F-22s require a multi-spectral sensor upgrade. The current sensor suite is
optimized to search, detect, track, identify, engage, and survive against threats operating within a
specific band of the radio frequency spectrum. A multi-spectral sensor system exploits a target’s
signature across the entire electromagnetic spectrum, providing alternative means outside the
currently exploited spectrum to detect and track adversaries. Multi-spectral systems provide
alternatives that are less susceptible to electronic attack or other advanced sensor
countermeasures. The F-22 needs to implement out-of-band multi-spectral sensor suites to
increase lethality and survivability against peer and emerging threats. A multi-spectral sensor
capability, combined with the current F-22 sensor suite, will allow the F-22 to maintain an
advantage over peer adversaries. All 20 ANG F-22s require this upgrade."

page 83
"ANG F-22 pilots require a night vision compatible, color, helmet-mounted
display (HMD). Multiple simulations and an operational utility assessment conducted by the
422nd Test and Evaluation Squadron demonstrated that using an HMD provides a distinct firstshot, first-kill advantage. Although this advantage applies primarily to within-visual-range
engagements, the HMD also substantially increases situational awareness during beyond-visualrange intercepts. HMD technology provides the capability to cue and verify off-boresight sensor
and weapon information through the display of weapons employment zones and visual cues of
target and friendly aircraft locations. Originally conceived as a weapons cueing system, the HMD
has evolved into a force multiplier because of its ability to enhance situational awareness during
all phases of flight and across all mission sets. For example, the HMD provides threat
information visual cues while the pilot is "eyes-out" of the cockpit, warning of dangers and
providing critical information to allow the pilot to maneuver the aircraft away from terrain or
threats. Similarly, F-22s tasked with identifying targets of interest during homeland defense
missions would be better able to quickly and efficiently visually locate and identify small aircraft
or unmanned systems. Lack of an HMD limits the lethality of the F-22, and puts the aircraft at a
disadvantage in certain situations against less formidable and capable aircraft. The acquisition of
an HMD for each ANG F-22 pilot will greatly increase the lethality and survivability of the F-22."



That hardly proves your case at all. Plus, not going to spend hours on a subject discussed countless time before! :?

Regardless, your ignoring the obvious....name the scenario and threat in the Air Superiority Role. That only the F-22 could succeed in and not the F-35....

Re: F-22 Crash

Unread postPosted: 10 Jun 2020, 10:49
by disconnectedradical
Corsair1963 wrote:That hardly proves your case at all. Plus, not going to spend hours on a subject discussed countless time before! :?

Regardless, your ignoring the obvious....name the scenario and threat in the Air Superiority Role. That only the F-22 could succeed in and not the F-35....


You didn't argue anything, you just said "F-35 will always have better sensors" without giving evidence. I already showed that upgrades for F-22 includes HMD and multispectral sensors which will close most of the sensor gap between F-22 and F-35, especially for air to air. F-22 radar is also bigger than F-35 and APG-77v1 shares the same modules and software, with bigger antenna. In air to air, it's not that F-35 can't succeed, but the F-22 will be much better at it especially when upgraded. You haven't given any evidence to show otherwise.

Re: F-22 Crash

Unread postPosted: 10 Jun 2020, 12:01
by zero-one
Corsair1963 wrote:You're “Picking and Choosing” what you want to hear. Sorry, the consensus of sources don't agree with much of your assessment.

What consensus of sources are you talking about exactly? Everyone from Generals to Pilots say the F-22 is the premiere A-A aircraft and while the F-35 is also capable of air to air, it is not specifically built for that. Personally I think it can defeat any other adversary platform 1 on 1, but we are not talking 1 on 1.

We are talking about a kill ratio of 144:0 for the F-22s vs 20:1 on the F-35s, yes I know the circumstances were different, but thats the analogy I want to use to drive the point.

Corsair1963 wrote:Because at supercruise speeds even on Military Power. You're still consuming greats amounts of fuel. This in turn limits your time on station. While, your infrared signature is much much higher


How much does it limit your time on station exactly? How high does your IR signature go up to? there are too many assumptions that go into that statement. The bottom line is, Col. Terry Scott said it is extremely useful in a tactical scenario.

Corsair1963 wrote:Honestly, your back to the same old argument we've heard for years now. Back to close in dogfights with guns blazing! :bang:


I actually never mentioned dogfighting, you seem to have the impression that kinematic performance is only relevant in dogfighting, but its not, in fact when Col Terry Scott explained how Supercruise was very relevant in a tactical scenario I assumed he was referring to a purely BVR scenario as dogfighting even with the F-22 would likely be subsonic.

Corsair1963 wrote:This is the world the F-35 with it's advantages in Stealth and Sensor Fusion thrive in....


The same advantages that the F-22 has, only with supercruise, extreme altitude, supersonic maneuverability and more missiles, all useful in BVR

We are acting like the F-22 struggles to gather S.A. when in reality pilots rave about the amount of SA on it.There is a point when more doesn't translate to better, more just means redundant. The F-22 will detect the same things as the F-35 and in some cases a little further and while the F-35 can count the number of missiles attached on the wings, it doesn't prohibit the fact that it is still a bogey and needs to be shot.

Re: F-22 Crash

Unread postPosted: 10 Jun 2020, 12:22
by Scorpion1alpha
As a moderator, I sometimes review (on my own time BTW) posts from people that I rather not take the time to do so. I’m calling you out “corsair1963”.

People have posted statements, not just in this thread, from numerous industry and senior USAF leadership (people who either actually work on the F-22 program or have direct knowledge of it due to their position), on why the F-22 is superior to the Lightning and how important it is in the air-to-air mission, which no other fighter in the world can do or match. You (and everybody else) have no idea what it can actually do to dominate the airspace NOW or know what kind of “upgrades” it will receive (or already received) to remain that way decades down the road.

You continue to be ignorant of the facts, particularly ignoring and / or dismissing public statements from those people in the know is unbelievable! Your “arguments” here are just another example of a long list of petulant rhetoric and overuse of emojis like you’re trying to be cute or something just supports my belief of your childish behavior.

Take a long look in the mirror if you’re wondering why this topic is now locked. You, and others, made this (and other threads) go off topic and very unenjoyable because of your belief the Lightning is somehow the best at everything.

Hardly.

F-16.net wants quality, and you’re not contributing to that goal. You reported another poster about their rhetoric in another topic a few weeks back which I, as a moderator saw. You mentioned if nothing is done about it, then you’ll leave F-16.net, “OUR CHOICE” as you put it.

There are other aviation forums on other sites that you can go to.