F-22 Crash

Anything goes, as long as it is about the Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor
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Corsair1963

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Unread post10 Jun 2020, 10:19

disconnectedradical wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:You will "never" be able to upgrade the F-22 to the same level of the F-35 in many respects. Honestly, this has been discussed at length more than once.


We're not talking strike, or air to ground. This is air to air. Give evidence that F-22 can't be upgraded to same level as F-35 for air to air.



Your argument is like making a case for a limited number of F4U Corsairs over a large number of F6F Hellcats. Stating the Corsair is far more capable....


Yet, the Corsair and Hellcat are equally capable of defeating the Zero! :wink:
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disconnectedradical

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Unread post10 Jun 2020, 10:31

Corsair1963 wrote:
disconnectedradical wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:You will "never" be able to upgrade the F-22 to the same level of the F-35 in many respects. Honestly, this has been discussed at length more than once.


We're not talking strike, or air to ground. This is air to air. Give evidence that F-22 can't be upgraded to same level as F-35 for air to air.


The infrared sensors for one. Hell, the cockpit couldn't use the existing F-35 Helmet. Because it wouldn't fit the pilot within the cockpit. So, a compromise had to be found....


Overall the F-35 has much better Sensor Fusion and always will....

BTW - You never answered my question on what threat the F-22 could counter but the F-35 could not??? :wink:


Your fanboying of F-35 is ridiculous. And besides, "countering" is not a simple yes/no, in counter air like OCA/DCA F-22 will be more effective.

I said it again and again, funding for F-22 upgrades includes a "multispectral" sensor, very likely IRST, and helmet mounted display.

https://www.ang.af.mil/Portals/77/docum ... 122634-043

page 81:
"ANG F-22s require a multi-spectral sensor upgrade. The current sensor suite is
optimized to search, detect, track, identify, engage, and survive against threats operating within a
specific band of the radio frequency spectrum. A multi-spectral sensor system exploits a target’s
signature across the entire electromagnetic spectrum, providing alternative means outside the
currently exploited spectrum to detect and track adversaries. Multi-spectral systems provide
alternatives that are less susceptible to electronic attack or other advanced sensor
countermeasures. The F-22 needs to implement out-of-band multi-spectral sensor suites to
increase lethality and survivability against peer and emerging threats. A multi-spectral sensor
capability, combined with the current F-22 sensor suite, will allow the F-22 to maintain an
advantage over peer adversaries. All 20 ANG F-22s require this upgrade."

page 83
"ANG F-22 pilots require a night vision compatible, color, helmet-mounted
display (HMD). Multiple simulations and an operational utility assessment conducted by the
422nd Test and Evaluation Squadron demonstrated that using an HMD provides a distinct firstshot, first-kill advantage. Although this advantage applies primarily to within-visual-range
engagements, the HMD also substantially increases situational awareness during beyond-visualrange intercepts. HMD technology provides the capability to cue and verify off-boresight sensor
and weapon information through the display of weapons employment zones and visual cues of
target and friendly aircraft locations. Originally conceived as a weapons cueing system, the HMD
has evolved into a force multiplier because of its ability to enhance situational awareness during
all phases of flight and across all mission sets. For example, the HMD provides threat
information visual cues while the pilot is "eyes-out" of the cockpit, warning of dangers and
providing critical information to allow the pilot to maneuver the aircraft away from terrain or
threats. Similarly, F-22s tasked with identifying targets of interest during homeland defense
missions would be better able to quickly and efficiently visually locate and identify small aircraft
or unmanned systems. Lack of an HMD limits the lethality of the F-22, and puts the aircraft at a
disadvantage in certain situations against less formidable and capable aircraft. The acquisition of
an HMD for each ANG F-22 pilot will greatly increase the lethality and survivability of the F-22."
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Corsair1963

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Unread post10 Jun 2020, 10:44

disconnectedradical wrote:
Your fanboying of F-35 is ridiculous. And besides, "countering" is not a simple yes/no, in counter air like OCA/DCA F-22 will be more effective.

I said it again and again, funding for F-22 upgrades includes a "multispectral" sensor, very likely IRST, and helmet mounted display.

https://www.ang.af.mil/Portals/77/docum ... 122634-043

page 81:
"ANG F-22s require a multi-spectral sensor upgrade. The current sensor suite is
optimized to search, detect, track, identify, engage, and survive against threats operating within a
specific band of the radio frequency spectrum. A multi-spectral sensor system exploits a target’s
signature across the entire electromagnetic spectrum, providing alternative means outside the
currently exploited spectrum to detect and track adversaries. Multi-spectral systems provide
alternatives that are less susceptible to electronic attack or other advanced sensor
countermeasures. The F-22 needs to implement out-of-band multi-spectral sensor suites to
increase lethality and survivability against peer and emerging threats. A multi-spectral sensor
capability, combined with the current F-22 sensor suite, will allow the F-22 to maintain an
advantage over peer adversaries. All 20 ANG F-22s require this upgrade."

page 83
"ANG F-22 pilots require a night vision compatible, color, helmet-mounted
display (HMD). Multiple simulations and an operational utility assessment conducted by the
422nd Test and Evaluation Squadron demonstrated that using an HMD provides a distinct firstshot, first-kill advantage. Although this advantage applies primarily to within-visual-range
engagements, the HMD also substantially increases situational awareness during beyond-visualrange intercepts. HMD technology provides the capability to cue and verify off-boresight sensor
and weapon information through the display of weapons employment zones and visual cues of
target and friendly aircraft locations. Originally conceived as a weapons cueing system, the HMD
has evolved into a force multiplier because of its ability to enhance situational awareness during
all phases of flight and across all mission sets. For example, the HMD provides threat
information visual cues while the pilot is "eyes-out" of the cockpit, warning of dangers and
providing critical information to allow the pilot to maneuver the aircraft away from terrain or
threats. Similarly, F-22s tasked with identifying targets of interest during homeland defense
missions would be better able to quickly and efficiently visually locate and identify small aircraft
or unmanned systems. Lack of an HMD limits the lethality of the F-22, and puts the aircraft at a
disadvantage in certain situations against less formidable and capable aircraft. The acquisition of
an HMD for each ANG F-22 pilot will greatly increase the lethality and survivability of the F-22."



That hardly proves your case at all. Plus, not going to spend hours on a subject discussed countless time before! :?

Regardless, your ignoring the obvious....name the scenario and threat in the Air Superiority Role. That only the F-22 could succeed in and not the F-35....
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disconnectedradical

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Unread post10 Jun 2020, 10:49

Corsair1963 wrote:That hardly proves your case at all. Plus, not going to spend hours on a subject discussed countless time before! :?

Regardless, your ignoring the obvious....name the scenario and threat in the Air Superiority Role. That only the F-22 could succeed in and not the F-35....


You didn't argue anything, you just said "F-35 will always have better sensors" without giving evidence. I already showed that upgrades for F-22 includes HMD and multispectral sensors which will close most of the sensor gap between F-22 and F-35, especially for air to air. F-22 radar is also bigger than F-35 and APG-77v1 shares the same modules and software, with bigger antenna. In air to air, it's not that F-35 can't succeed, but the F-22 will be much better at it especially when upgraded. You haven't given any evidence to show otherwise.
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zero-one

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Unread post10 Jun 2020, 12:01

Corsair1963 wrote:You're “Picking and Choosing” what you want to hear. Sorry, the consensus of sources don't agree with much of your assessment.

What consensus of sources are you talking about exactly? Everyone from Generals to Pilots say the F-22 is the premiere A-A aircraft and while the F-35 is also capable of air to air, it is not specifically built for that. Personally I think it can defeat any other adversary platform 1 on 1, but we are not talking 1 on 1.

We are talking about a kill ratio of 144:0 for the F-22s vs 20:1 on the F-35s, yes I know the circumstances were different, but thats the analogy I want to use to drive the point.

Corsair1963 wrote:Because at supercruise speeds even on Military Power. You're still consuming greats amounts of fuel. This in turn limits your time on station. While, your infrared signature is much much higher


How much does it limit your time on station exactly? How high does your IR signature go up to? there are too many assumptions that go into that statement. The bottom line is, Col. Terry Scott said it is extremely useful in a tactical scenario.

Corsair1963 wrote:Honestly, your back to the same old argument we've heard for years now. Back to close in dogfights with guns blazing! :bang:


I actually never mentioned dogfighting, you seem to have the impression that kinematic performance is only relevant in dogfighting, but its not, in fact when Col Terry Scott explained how Supercruise was very relevant in a tactical scenario I assumed he was referring to a purely BVR scenario as dogfighting even with the F-22 would likely be subsonic.

Corsair1963 wrote:This is the world the F-35 with it's advantages in Stealth and Sensor Fusion thrive in....


The same advantages that the F-22 has, only with supercruise, extreme altitude, supersonic maneuverability and more missiles, all useful in BVR

We are acting like the F-22 struggles to gather S.A. when in reality pilots rave about the amount of SA on it.There is a point when more doesn't translate to better, more just means redundant. The F-22 will detect the same things as the F-35 and in some cases a little further and while the F-35 can count the number of missiles attached on the wings, it doesn't prohibit the fact that it is still a bogey and needs to be shot.
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Scorpion1alpha

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Unread post10 Jun 2020, 12:22

As a moderator, I sometimes review (on my own time BTW) posts from people that I rather not take the time to do so. I’m calling you out “corsair1963”.

People have posted statements, not just in this thread, from numerous industry and senior USAF leadership (people who either actually work on the F-22 program or have direct knowledge of it due to their position), on why the F-22 is superior to the Lightning and how important it is in the air-to-air mission, which no other fighter in the world can do or match. You (and everybody else) have no idea what it can actually do to dominate the airspace NOW or know what kind of “upgrades” it will receive (or already received) to remain that way decades down the road.

You continue to be ignorant of the facts, particularly ignoring and / or dismissing public statements from those people in the know is unbelievable! Your “arguments” here are just another example of a long list of petulant rhetoric and overuse of emojis like you’re trying to be cute or something just supports my belief of your childish behavior.

Take a long look in the mirror if you’re wondering why this topic is now locked. You, and others, made this (and other threads) go off topic and very unenjoyable because of your belief the Lightning is somehow the best at everything.

Hardly.

F-16.net wants quality, and you’re not contributing to that goal. You reported another poster about their rhetoric in another topic a few weeks back which I, as a moderator saw. You mentioned if nothing is done about it, then you’ll leave F-16.net, “OUR CHOICE” as you put it.

There are other aviation forums on other sites that you can go to.
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