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Sukhoi challenges F-22 at airshow

Unread postPosted: 08 May 2020, 12:37
by f-15c85-0114
It is said that Sukhoi once publicly challenged the F-22 at the air show and asked for a dogfighting game, but it was rejected by the Americans. Is this true?

Re: Sukhoi challenges F-22 at airshow

Unread postPosted: 08 May 2020, 13:36
by sferrin
f-15c85-0114 wrote:It is said that Sukhoi once publicly challenged the F-22 at the air show and asked for a dogfighting game, but it was rejected by the Americans. Is this true?


Is this a real question?

Re: Sukhoi challenges F-22 at airshow

Unread postPosted: 08 May 2020, 15:47
by madrat
Look at the history of his posting. I don't think he seriously was asking anything.

Re: Sukhoi challenges F-22 at airshow

Unread postPosted: 08 May 2020, 15:55
by mixelflick
He may be thinking of a similar incident years ago, but not involving the F-22...

If memory serves, there was a Flanker pilot who challenged Western pilots to a mock air to air combat duel over the English Channel. This was at an airshow some years back.

Nobody took him up on the challenge, which the Russians of course boasted about. Professional aviators don't take these things seriously. Western aircraft aren't designed to perform airshow stunts. When called upon in war, their air to air etc. records are admirable. Much better than their Soviet counterparts.

For example, the F-15 has a combined 104-0 air to air combat record - mostly vs. Soviet built aircraft. Most of these kills were Israeli, although many were also USAF F-15's in ODS. The F-15 has shot down Mig-21's, 23's, 25's and 29's. Iranian F-14's regularly laid waste to Iraqi Mig-21's, 23's and 25's. Even legacy Hornets laden with (4!) 2,000lb bombs destroyed a pair of Mig-21's sent to intercept them, then went on to complete their bombing run. I could go on and on, but a mock dogfight proves nothing.

Combat does though. And on that score our jets do very, very well...

Re: Sukhoi challenges F-22 at airshow

Unread postPosted: 16 May 2020, 10:58
by gta4
This was a challenge posed by Su-37 "teminator" during RIAT 1996, where the Raptor did not even make its maiden flight.

Su-37 crashed in 2002 and F-22 entered service in 2005. There is no time window for such a challenge to happen.

Given the result of Redflag 2008 Su-30MKI vs F-15C, I have serious doubt that Su-37 could have any chance against a Raptor sustaining more deg/sec than Su-37's inst. turn rate.

Re: Sukhoi challenges F-22 at airshow

Unread postPosted: 16 May 2020, 11:49
by gta4

Re: Sukhoi challenges F-22 at airshow

Unread postPosted: 17 May 2020, 06:57
by disconnectedradical
gta4 wrote:I have serious doubt that Su-37 could have any chance against a Raptor sustaining more deg/sec than Su-37's inst. turn rate.


There's no way F-22 sustained turn is more than Su-37 instantaneous turn.

Re: Sukhoi challenges F-22 at airshow

Unread postPosted: 17 May 2020, 12:22
by gta4
disconnectedradical wrote:
gta4 wrote:I have serious doubt that Su-37 could have any chance against a Raptor sustaining more deg/sec than Su-37's inst. turn rate.


There's no way F-22 sustained turn is more than Su-37 instantaneous turn.


1. F-22 at 20000 ft sustains 28deg/sec (red flag 2008 pilot interview)
2. Su-27 at sea level has an ITR of 28deg/sec (Airshow brochure published by Sukhoi)
3. Turn rate dissipates at a power of 1/2 as the density of air decreases, when going higher up.
4. Normally thrust vectoring does not affect much STR.

All these factors are enough for you to deduct my conclusion.

Re: Sukhoi challenges F-22 at airshow

Unread postPosted: 17 May 2020, 14:03
by disconnectedradical
gta4 wrote:
disconnectedradical wrote:
gta4 wrote:I have serious doubt that Su-37 could have any chance against a Raptor sustaining more deg/sec than Su-37's inst. turn rate.


There's no way F-22 sustained turn is more than Su-37 instantaneous turn.


1. F-22 at 20000 ft sustains 28deg/sec (red flag 2008 pilot interview)
2. Su-27 at sea level has an ITR of 28deg/sec (Airshow brochure published by Sukhoi)
3. Turn rate dissipates at a power of 1/2 as the density of air decreases, when going higher up.
4. Normally thrust vectoring does not affect much STR.

All these factors are enough for you to deduct my conclusion.


F-22 does not sustain 28 deg/sec at 20,000 ft, not even close. Pitch rate, maybe, but no way that’s the sustained turn rate, the Cl and thrust needed is physically impossible.

You don’t need to use hyperbole and wrong statements to show why F-22 is a better fighter.