A dozen F-22’s deployed to Middle East

Unread postPosted: 29 Jun 2019, 00:34
by tank-top
That sounds to me like we are trying to send a strong message more than anything. I’m guessing that is more than overkill for whatever is left of a Iran’s Air Force.

Re: A dozen F22’s deployed to Middle East

Unread postPosted: 29 Jun 2019, 09:09
by zero-one
I know this is known news. But it would be nice to put a link to kick start a thread.
#OCD :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

https://www.military.com/daily-news/201 ... sions.html

Its not just F-22s they're deploying.
Raptors have in the past been stationed at Al Dhafra Air Base, United Arab Emirates. The fifth-generation fighter had been part of the air campaign against the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria since the fight began in 2014; they returned home last fall, and were replaced by F-15C Eagles earlier this year.

In May, the Pentagon sent B-52 Stratofortress bombers to the region as a response to unspecified threats from Iran at the time. The bombers had flown a series of patrols over the Persian Gulf alongside F-15Cs, as well as the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter. The Air Force's variant of the fifth-generation fighter deployed to the theater in April, and conducted its first combat strike mission in Iraq on April 30.

The Trump administration announced May 5 it was sending the aircraft carrier Abraham Lincoln and a bomber task force to the Middle East. A week later, the U.S. added even more firepower, sending the amphibious transport dock Arlington and a Patriot missile battery to the region for extra deterrence.

Then F-15E Strike Eagles deployed to Al Dhafra in June to increase aerial presence, according to Air Force Magazine.



So If I'm reading this correctly we have
-F-22s and F-15Cs for Air dominance
-F-35s and F-15Es for Strike
-B-52s for Strategic bombing
-Patriot missile batteries for SAM coverage
-a CSG for redundancy over the naval side.

Re: A dozen F22’s deployed to Middle East

Unread postPosted: 29 Jun 2019, 12:48
by mixelflick
Yep, that's the impression I got too. Although one would think the F-22's are relieving the F-15C's. Not sure how it was worded, but perhaps those F-15C's are sticking around as you suggest.

A dozen Raptor's isn't an insignificant number. It's more than the 2 to 4 usually deployed. They'd need more for any campaign against Iran, perhaps 20-25 as mission capable rate has been reported as well under 80%.

They've gotten the F-22 message in the past, will be interesting to see if they settle down this time..

Re: A dozen F22’s deployed to Middle East

Unread postPosted: 29 Jun 2019, 15:35
by zero-one
I actually think its overkill.
The F-35s are enough to punch holes into their IADS network and take out any aircraft that'll try to stop them.
But since Raptors are in the area, the F-35's may simply use their limited internal AMRAAMs for self defense and leave CAP duties to the F-22.

There were reports that the US wanted to retaliate against 3 locations in Iran. If thats the case, then the force in the region is well capable of any eventualities like that. Suddenly the Patriot missiles makes sense as you'd expect Iran to retaliate against the airbases hosting the USAF with ballistic missiles.

Re: A dozen F22’s deployed to Middle East

Unread postPosted: 30 Jun 2019, 03:21
by pmi
zero-one wrote:I actually think its overkill.


If overkill is an option, it's the only way you should be fighting.

Re: A dozen F22’s deployed to Middle East

Unread postPosted: 01 Jul 2019, 16:59
by mixelflick
It's overkill for sure with the F-22 adding to our air superiority capabilities.

But when you consider this F-22 deployment adds to the taxing of its ability to fight a 2 front war, it's concerning. North Korea is acting up again, and while our ability to handle both Iran's and N. Korea's air force isn't in question, things could be far worse. Their ICBM's threaten F-22 air bases, and I'd question the Patriot's ability to shoot down all of them.

Don't get me wrong - the F-22 brings overwhelming capabilities to each theater. But this 2 front war could be a LOT worse. Russia and China for example. In that event, it's my OPINION that things quite possibly would be different. In that event, the F-22's ability to sanitize the airspace of both would be a lot more questionable.

Notice I didn't say it couldn't perform that function, it's just a lot more questionable/problematic IMO. You probably wouldn't want to be responsible for the F-22's ability to win control of the airspace in either instance, much less both. Your aircraft and pilots would be taxed to a much more siginicant degree. And yes, the F-35 could help. Hopefully significantly. But it would have to step it to a far more significant degree. It is IMO, a not yet fully matured weapons system.

And this is the F-22 forum after all :mrgreen:

Re: A dozen F22’s deployed to Middle East

Unread postPosted: 01 Jul 2019, 17:18
by sferrin
mixelflick wrote: Iran's and N. Korea's air force isn't in question, things could be far worse. Their ICBM's threaten F-22 air bases, and I'd question the Patriot's ability to shoot down all of them.


You do realize neither of those countries have ICBMs, right?

Re: A dozen F22’s deployed to Middle East

Unread postPosted: 01 Jul 2019, 17:47
by quicksilver
That’s special — mix and zero now claiming F-22s are overkill...

Re: A dozen F22’s deployed to Middle East

Unread postPosted: 01 Jul 2019, 17:55
by wooster
12 Raptors are not overkill. 12 Raptors are underkill. A Raptor isn't a B-52 or a B-1 which can loiter night and day long as long there is tanker support.

A lucky Raptor would have to be in the right place at the right time for it to matter. With 12 deployed, the odds of that are next to nothing.

40-60 would be a viable number. 12 is rather weak, especially with availability rates.

Re: A dozen F22’s deployed to Middle East

Unread postPosted: 01 Jul 2019, 19:27
by botsing
pmi wrote:
zero-one wrote:I actually think its overkill.


If overkill is an option, it's the only way you should be fighting.

Overkill actually means that you used too much logistics. :twisted:

I doubt if twelve raptors would be overkill for such a wide area as Iran, it however sends a clear message.

Re: A dozen F22’s deployed to Middle East

Unread postPosted: 02 Jul 2019, 01:17
by Corsair1963
wooster wrote:12 Raptors are not overkill. 12 Raptors are underkill. A Raptor isn't a B-52 or a B-1 which can loiter night and day long as long there is tanker support.

A lucky Raptor would have to be in the right place at the right time for it to matter. With 12 deployed, the odds of that are next to nothing.

40-60 would be a viable number. 12 is rather weak, especially with availability rates.



LOL Considering the capabilities of the Iranian Air Force. Trust me 12 Raptors is overkill....Hell, Kuwait could take them on and win!
:twisted:

Re: A dozen F22’s deployed to Middle East

Unread postPosted: 02 Jul 2019, 07:37
by zero-one
quicksilver wrote:That’s special — mix and zero now claiming F-22s are overkill...


Its nothing new, I always thought and continue to think that the Raptor is overkill in sheer capabilities alone.

Re: A dozen F22’s deployed to Middle East

Unread postPosted: 02 Jul 2019, 12:50
by quicksilver
zero-one wrote:
quicksilver wrote:That’s special — mix and zero now claiming F-22s are overkill...


Its nothing new, I always thought and continue to think that the Raptor is overkill in sheer capabilities alone.


Congratulations. You’ve proven Secretary Gates’ case.

Re: A dozen F22’s deployed to Middle East

Unread postPosted: 02 Jul 2019, 12:52
by sferrin
zero-one wrote:
quicksilver wrote:That’s special — mix and zero now claiming F-22s are overkill...


Its nothing new, I always thought and continue to think that the Raptor is overkill in sheer capabilities alone.


And that's bad because. . .? (By your rational we should have limited the number of Eagles purchased because it could annihilate the Mig-23.)

Re: A dozen F22’s deployed to Middle East

Unread postPosted: 02 Jul 2019, 12:53
by sferrin
quicksilver wrote:
zero-one wrote:
quicksilver wrote:That’s special — mix and zero now claiming F-22s are overkill...


Its nothing new, I always thought and continue to think that the Raptor is overkill in sheer capabilities alone.


Congratulations. You’ve proven Secretary Gates’ case.


I don't think God himself could prove Secretary Gates' case.

Re: A dozen F22’s deployed to Middle East

Unread postPosted: 02 Jul 2019, 13:37
by quicksilver
sferrin wrote:I don't think God himself could prove Secretary Gates' case.


Then perhaps you don’t get it either; if Raptors are too much for Iran or some other regional dust up, then you’re saving them for what (??) China or Russia (...at exceptionally minute probabilities). Those two players were decades behind, and they still haven’t fielded anything in numbers.

In this context, there’s no such thing as overkill.

Re: A dozen F22’s deployed to Middle East

Unread postPosted: 02 Jul 2019, 13:50
by sferrin
quicksilver wrote:In this context, there’s no such thing as overkill.


Exactly my point. You don't want a fair fight. I'd have thought you'd have been in agreement there.

Re: A dozen F22’s deployed to Middle East

Unread postPosted: 02 Jul 2019, 13:55
by zero-one
quicksilver wrote:
zero-one wrote:
Its nothing new, I always thought and continue to think that the Raptor is overkill in sheer capabilities alone.


Congratulations. You’ve proven Secretary Gates’ case.


I still remember some of the news reports during 2009, there were 3 main reasons why the Raptor order was curtailed. According to the reports:

1. It was irrelevant for the "realities of warfare" which were now against insurgents in caves with no air force to speak of.
The Armed forces was starting to move away from "cold war mentalities" and was moving more towards a COIN (Counter Insurgency) force. (10 years later, we have a new cold war)

2. Russia and China were well behind in their 5th gen programs and 180 Raptors with support from F-35s would be capable of decimating the RuAF or PLAAF (I actually think they were correct with this assessment although it would take longer and casualties will be higher)

3. Recession. IIRC the order was cut to 187 in 2009 at the height of the Recession.

So it wasn't mainly because the F-22 was overkill, although people did take that into consideration and it was a contributing factor.

Frankly I believe Gates and the Obama Admin never wanted to cut the F-22 buy, I believe there were long, tense meetings and debates about this and they tried their best to save it if they could. But with the economy the way it was and with the foucs on Iraqistan type conflicts, something had to give.

Re: A dozen F22’s deployed to Middle East

Unread postPosted: 02 Jul 2019, 13:58
by quicksilver
sferrin wrote:
quicksilver wrote:In this context, there’s no such thing as overkill.


Exactly my point. You don't want a fair fight. I'd have thought you'd have been in agreement there.


mix and zero were arguing overkill, which would conspicuously align them with the rationale that shortened the Raptor buy — and which they vociferously decried.

Re: A dozen F22’s deployed to Middle East

Unread postPosted: 02 Jul 2019, 14:01
by quicksilver
zero-one wrote:
quicksilver wrote:
zero-one wrote:
Its nothing new, I always thought and continue to think that the Raptor is overkill in sheer capabilities alone.


Congratulations. You’ve proven Secretary Gates’ case.


I still remember some of the news reports during 2009, there were 3 main reasons why the Raptor order was curtailed. According to the reports:

1. It was irrelevant for the "realities of warfare" which were now against insurgents in caves with no air force to speak of.
The Armed forces was starting to move away from "cold war mentalities" and was moving more towards a COIN (Counter Insurgency) force. (10 years later, we have a new cold war)

2. Russia and China were well behind in their 5th gen programs and 180 Raptors with support from F-35s would be capable of decimating the RuAF or PLAAF (I actually think they were correct with this assessment although it would take longer and casualties will be higher)

3. Recession. IIRC the order was cut to 187 in 2009 at the height of the Recession.

So it wasn't mainly because the F-22 was overkill, although people did take that into consideration and it was a contributing factor.

Frankly I believe Gates and the Bush Admin never wanted to cut the F-22 buy, I believe there were long, tense meetings and debates about this and they tried their best to save it if they could. But with the economy the way it was and with the foucs on Iraqistan type conflicts, something had to give.


‘Overkill’ is just the shorthand for #1.

Re: A dozen F22’s deployed to Middle East

Unread postPosted: 02 Jul 2019, 15:14
by zero-one
quicksilver wrote:
‘Overkill’ is just the shorthand for #1.


Well not necessarily Overkill, but more like the wrong aircraft for the job.
Its no secret that I like the Raptor most of all aircraft but even I think its not a very good Ground attack platform.

-Can it even hit moving ground targets?
-Can it detect and target SAM sites that are on passive mode?
I personally don't think so.

Re: A dozen F22’s deployed to Middle East

Unread postPosted: 02 Jul 2019, 15:59
by quicksilver
“Can it even hit moving ground targets?”

I doubt it but that’s why we have other assets there to do that kind of thing, particularly since movers are a smaller part of the target set.

“Can it detect and target SAM sites that are on passive mode?”

I don’t know. But, it can deliver pgms to coordinates provided by other assets, and can do so from sanctuary unattainable by other assets.

Re: A dozen F22’s deployed to Middle East

Unread postPosted: 02 Jul 2019, 16:12
by zero-one
quicksilver wrote:“Can it even hit moving ground targets?”

I doubt it but that’s why we have other assets there to do that kind of thing, particularly since movers are a smaller part of the target set.

“Can it detect and target SAM sites that are on passive mode?”

I don’t know. But, it can deliver pgms to coordinates provided by other assets, and can do so from sanctuary unattainable by other assets.


Thats also what I think.
It is the finest A-A platform ever made, but its a poor man's F-35 when it comes to A-G duties.

Re: A dozen F22’s deployed to Middle East

Unread postPosted: 02 Jul 2019, 16:18
by wrightwing
zero-one wrote:

-Can it even hit moving ground targets?
-Can it detect and target SAM sites that are on passive mode?
I personally don't think so.

Not with the current A2G weapons, but if they integrate the GBU-53, it'd have a moving target capability.
As for detecting SAMs that aren't emitting, F-22s can use their onboard SAR/GMTI to look, as well as 3rd party targeting data. When used in conjunction with MALD/etc... to get targets to emit, they can be very effective.

Re: A dozen F22’s deployed to Middle East

Unread postPosted: 02 Jul 2019, 17:21
by sferrin
zero-one wrote:
quicksilver wrote:“Can it even hit moving ground targets?”

I doubt it but that’s why we have other assets there to do that kind of thing, particularly since movers are a smaller part of the target set.

“Can it detect and target SAM sites that are on passive mode?”

I don’t know. But, it can deliver pgms to coordinates provided by other assets, and can do so from sanctuary unattainable by other assets.


Thats also what I think.
It is the finest A-A platform ever made, but its a poor man's F-35 when it comes to A-G duties.


It was never meant to be an F-35. Using it like one would be absurd.

Re: A dozen F22’s deployed to Middle East

Unread postPosted: 02 Jul 2019, 19:35
by mixelflick
The "F/A-22A" was nothing more than an attempt to increase its value proposition. I don't think it was ever intended to have world class air to ground capabilities, although on some level it could be argued it does. Not compared to the F-35, but vs. everything else (against fixed targets)?

A lot more survivable vs. other fixed wing aviation I reckon, primarily due to its speed/stealth and EW suite..

As it stands, I'd much rather have our silver bullet force focus exclusively on the air to air mission. They can be proficient in both, but there are only so many flight hours every month...

Re: A dozen F22’s deployed to Middle East

Unread postPosted: 02 Jul 2019, 19:56
by vilters
So far, it has been a sea conflict.

I don't know how good the F-22 can swim. :devil:

Air assets can be good for detection, but for actions we need ships and submarines in that area.

Re: A dozen F-22’s deployed to Middle East

Unread postPosted: 07 Jul 2019, 20:57
by awsome
The Russians are probably more than happy to have Raptors flying around within sensor range. If they become a problem their air bases are not as nearly invisible as the aircraft themselves.

Re: A dozen F22’s deployed to Middle East

Unread postPosted: 10 Jul 2019, 16:52
by mixelflick
sferrin wrote:
mixelflick wrote: Iran's and N. Korea's air force isn't in question, things could be far worse. Their ICBM's threaten F-22 air bases, and I'd question the Patriot's ability to shoot down all of them.


You do realize neither of those countries have ICBMs, right?


North Korea does (Hwasong-14) but yes I mis-spoke as to Iran. It's more accurate to say they have MRBM's (Shahab-3).

Re: A dozen F22’s deployed to Middle East

Unread postPosted: 10 Jul 2019, 16:59
by mixelflick
quicksilver wrote:That’s special — mix and zero now claiming F-22s are overkill...


Mix didn't say the Raptor alone would be overkill. Here's what I said..

It's overkill for sure with the F-22 adding to our air superiority capabilities

Meaning when you already have F-15C''s, F/A-18's, Strike Eagles and F-35's in theater (and probably F-16's too), adding the F-22 would be overkill.

Gates made the wrong decision, which has been proven time and time again. If he didn't kill the F-22, we wouldn't be talking about what to do with the elderly F-15C fleet, and USAF wanting to build F-15EX's.

Re: A dozen F-22’s deployed to Middle East

Unread postPosted: 10 Jul 2019, 19:59
by wrightwing
awsome wrote:The Russians are probably more than happy to have Raptors flying around within sensor range. If they become a problem their air bases are not as nearly invisible as the aircraft themselves.

The F-22s are well aware of Russian sensors, and aren't giving away unnecessary information.