F-119 engines: Is ADVENT, etc on the table?

Unread postPosted: 02 Mar 2019, 15:38
by mixelflick
We often hear about how the F-35 expects to see a more powerful engine soon, with more thrust and a lower rate of fuel consumption.

Is there an equivalent plan for the F-22/F-119?

I could only find this description of what a proposed F-35/22 hybrid would be powered by...

Advanced engines about 25% more fuel efficient and 10% more thrust
The Adaptive Engine Transition Program will be delivering jet engines with about 45,000-pound-thrust turbofan engine prototypes. The engine’s fuel efficiency is improved by about 25% and thrust is increased by 10% with reduced engine heating.

AETP adds a third stream of cooled air around the outside of the engine that can be opened or closed to switch from fuel-efficient mode to high-performance mode and back again as the need arises. Variable cycle or adaptive cycle engines, will be able to switch between functioning as a turbojet with high-velocity thrust for supersonic performance and the lower speeds of airliner engines designed to reduce fuel consumption.

Re: F-119 engines: Is ADVENT, etc on the table?

Unread postPosted: 02 Mar 2019, 16:16
by sferrin
Have never heard of any plans for the F-22 (it doesn't have a shortage of power). One variant of ADVENT (or whatever it's called these days) is sized for the F-35. Another, in the 60k range IIRC, will be sized for the PCA.

Re: F-119 engines: Is ADVENT, etc on the table?

Unread postPosted: 02 Mar 2019, 19:21
by wrightwing
Those are pretty conservative numbers compared to some of the others, that have been mentioned. Most list a 20% thrust increase, along with a 30 to 35% range increase. Nevertheless, 10% above 43k isn't 45k.

Re: F-119 engines: Is ADVENT, etc on the table?

Unread postPosted: 02 Mar 2019, 23:22
by marauder2048
There's evidence that it has at least been scoped out.

Re: F-119 engines: Is ADVENT, etc on the table?

Unread postPosted: 03 Mar 2019, 15:18
by mixelflick
I guess boosting the F-35's performance is more pressing. That's NOT to say I think it's under-powered, far from it. But given how many there are, and where they are (all over), it would seem to be the more pressing priority.

It's just... whenever I hear "35,000lbs of thrust class engines", I chuckle a little. That's what they were when the Raptor went IOC almost 15 years ago. Given our lead in engine tech, would seem silly to just rest on those laurels. Then again, getting longer ranged and better weapons/sensors is likely more of a priority...

Thanks to everyone who took the time to reply..

Re: F-119 engines: Is ADVENT, etc on the table?

Unread postPosted: 03 Mar 2019, 15:43
by sferrin
I've seen 42k and 48k for the F135. P&W has also stated they've run it at 50k on a bench. Whatever the F135 is the Advent based follow on would be significantly more powerful.

Re: F-119 engines: Is ADVENT, etc on the table?

Unread postPosted: 04 Mar 2019, 14:52
by mixelflick
sferrin wrote:I've seen 42k and 48k for the F135. P&W has also stated they've run it at 50k on a bench. Whatever the F135 is the Advent based follow on would be significantly more powerful.


So based on this and other comments I've researched, the F-135 is what Pratt is intent on further developing, not the F-119. I find that curious, as the F-119 is capable of super-cruise and the F-135 (as we know it), isn't. Perhaps the modified F-135 will be.

Something with 50,000lbs of thrust would be incredible I hear PCA is shooting for 60,000lbs. Going to have to be that powerful, given we know it's going to be a big bird. Fighters are soooo much bigger today. You don't really realize how much bigger until you see a heritage flight of P-51's, F-35A's or certainly F-22's.

Almost as big as the bombers of yesteryear!

Re: F-119 engines: Is ADVENT, etc on the table?

Unread postPosted: 04 Mar 2019, 15:23
by sprstdlyscottsmn
mixelflick wrote:
sferrin wrote:I've seen 42k and 48k for the F135. P&W has also stated they've run it at 50k on a bench. Whatever the F135 is the Advent based follow on would be significantly more powerful.


So based on this and other comments I've researched, the F-135 is what Pratt is intent on further developing, not the F-119. I find that curious, as the F-119 is capable of super-cruise and the F-135 (as we know it), isn't. Perhaps the modified F-135 will be.

Something with 50,000lbs of thrust would be incredible I hear PCA is shooting for 60,000lbs. Going to have to be that powerful, given we know it's going to be a big bird. Fighters are soooo much bigger today. You don't really realize how much bigger until you see a heritage flight of P-51's, F-35A's or certainly F-22's.

Almost as big as the bombers of yesteryear!

F-15E, F-14. and F-22 all weigh more than a B-17.

Re: F-119 engines: Is ADVENT, etc on the table?

Unread postPosted: 04 Mar 2019, 16:10
by hythelday
mixelflick wrote:So based on this and other comments I've researched, the F-135 is what Pratt is intent on further developing, not the F-119. I find that curious, as the F-119 is capable of super-cruise and the F-135 (as we know it), isn't. Perhaps the modified F-135 will be.


An F-35 powered by F135 does not supercruise. A fighter that has a favorable thrust/lift/weight/drag relation will supercruise regardless of the powerplant. In does not make any sense to say that any kind of airframe powered by one or several F135 in mil power won't be able reach and sustain supersonic speeds.

Re: F-119 engines: Is ADVENT, etc on the table?

Unread postPosted: 04 Mar 2019, 16:21
by sprstdlyscottsmn
hythelday wrote:An F-35 powered by F135 does not supercruise. A fighter that has a favorable thrust/lift/weight/drag relation will supercruise regardless of the powerplant. In does not make any sense to say that any kind of airframe powered by one or several F135 in mil power won't be able reach and sustain supersonic speeds.

To take this one step further, one pilot said it can maintain ~1.2M in a 1-2 degree dive in Mil. So while it does not super-cruise it also isn't far from it.

Re: F-119 engines: Is ADVENT, etc on the table?

Unread postPosted: 04 Mar 2019, 17:58
by crosshairs
sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:
hythelday wrote:An F-35 powered by F135 does not supercruise. A fighter that has a favorable thrust/lift/weight/drag relation will supercruise regardless of the powerplant. In does not make any sense to say that any kind of airframe powered by one or several F135 in mil power won't be able reach and sustain supersonic speeds.

To take this one step further, one pilot said it can maintain ~1.2M in a 1-2 degree dive in Mil. So while it does not super-cruise it also isn't far from it.


A clean F-16 can maintain > 1.0M without AB. Some guys have said up to 1.3. Don't want to get into a debate about PW and GE.

So at what loadout is the F-35 maintaining 1.2 in a dive? With all that thrust and internal weapons I am suprised it can't maintain 1.2 straight and level in mil.

Re: F-119 engines: Is ADVENT, etc on the table?

Unread postPosted: 04 Mar 2019, 18:37
by sprstdlyscottsmn
crosshairs wrote:
A clean F-16 can maintain > 1.0M without AB. Some guys have said up to 1.3. Don't want to get into a debate about PW and GE.

So at what loadout is the F-35 maintaining 1.2 in a dive? With all that thrust and internal weapons I am suprised it can't maintain 1.2 straight and level in mil.

An F-16 is never clean unless it's at an airshow. At 1.2M drag due to lift is negligible so it would likely be nearly the same dive angle for empty bays or bays with two AMRAAMS and two JDAMs.

Re: F-119 engines: Is ADVENT, etc on the table?

Unread postPosted: 04 Mar 2019, 20:04
by crosshairs
sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:
crosshairs wrote:
A clean F-16 can maintain > 1.0M without AB. Some guys have said up to 1.3. Don't want to get into a debate about PW and GE.

So at what loadout is the F-35 maintaining 1.2 in a dive? With all that thrust and internal weapons I am suprised it can't maintain 1.2 straight and level in mil.

An F-16 is never clean unless it's at an airshow. At 1.2M drag due to lift is negligible so it would likely be nearly the same dive angle for empty bays or bays with two AMRAAMS and two JDAMs.



Yes, but the F-35 is always clean just like it will be at an air show. Well, ideally it is.

So a clean F-16 compared to a clean F-35 ought to be an even comparison. No or yes?

A clean F-16 without getting into different engines will reportedly do between 1.1 and 1.3 without AB. Can a clean F-35 do that?

Re: F-119 engines: Is ADVENT, etc on the table?

Unread postPosted: 04 Mar 2019, 20:06
by sferrin
crosshairs wrote:
sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:
crosshairs wrote:
A clean F-16 can maintain > 1.0M without AB. Some guys have said up to 1.3. Don't want to get into a debate about PW and GE.

So at what loadout is the F-35 maintaining 1.2 in a dive? With all that thrust and internal weapons I am suprised it can't maintain 1.2 straight and level in mil.

An F-16 is never clean unless it's at an airshow. At 1.2M drag due to lift is negligible so it would likely be nearly the same dive angle for empty bays or bays with two AMRAAMS and two JDAMs.



Yes, but the F-35 is always clean just like it will be at an air show. Well, ideally it is.

So a clean F-16 compared to a clean F-35 ought to be an even comparison. No or yes?


No. When is an F-16 going to go into combat clean?

Re: F-119 engines: Is ADVENT, etc on the table?

Unread postPosted: 04 Mar 2019, 20:17
by charlielima223
sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:
mixelflick wrote:
Almost as big as the bombers of yesteryear!

F-15E, F-14. and F-22 all weigh more than a B-17.


Yes and they also haul more weight around as well.

B-17 MTOW 65000lbs
F-15E MTOW 81000lbs