Chinese claims they detect F-22 from 450 km away

Unread postPosted: 29 Jan 2019, 02:24
by eloise
During a talk holding in a research workshop, the chief scientist of the China's largest radar group, CETC, Dr Wu Jianqi, told the audience that China's anti-stealth radar is the world most advanced anti-stealth radar.

It solved all the tech difficulties that other countries failed to solve and the 4th generation anti-stealth radar CETC developed, their radar, is the world's only anti-stealth radar that can not only spot but also track and guide fire-control radar to attack enemy stealth aircrafts in a range of over 500 km.

During the talk, he give an example that their last generation anti-stealth radar track F-22 fighters in East Asia flying 450 km away.

And he told the audience China airforce now cover the entire China coastline with such highly advanced anti-stealth radar, such that US stealth fighters will be meaningless.

Can someone translate the slide?
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Re: Chinese claims they detect F-22 from 450 km away

Unread postPosted: 29 Jan 2019, 03:16
by Corsair1963
So, is China going to stop the development of both the J-20 and J-31??? As everyone knows the F-22 is more stealthy than either of the aforementioned. Clearly, Stealth Fighters are no longer a serious threat.... :wink:

Re: Chinese claims they detect F-22 from 450 km away

Unread postPosted: 29 Jan 2019, 05:17
by charlielima223
Are we really going to go through all this again? :bang: :bang:

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Unless they found some way to bend the fundamental laws of physics I call male bovine excrement. Besides I take most claims by Chinese state run media with a grain of salt... as in pass the salt shaker and leave it here.

Re: Chinese claims they detect F-22 from 450 km away

Unread postPosted: 29 Jan 2019, 07:51
by zero-one
Or rather they tracked what they think was an F-22 from 450 km away
How did they confirm this by the way?
Did they call the contact?

Hey are you and F-22
Why yes I am an F-22 how did you know?

Re: Chinese claims they detect F-22 from 450 km away

Unread postPosted: 29 Jan 2019, 10:13
by beepa
I suppose it's possible if the F22 still has Lunebergs fitted.

Re: Chinese claims they detect F-22 from 450 km away

Unread postPosted: 29 Jan 2019, 11:03
by hornetfinn
beepa wrote:I suppose it's possible if the F22 still has Lunebergs fitted.


Very possible along with EFTs. Anyway, making a radar capable of tracking F-22 at those ranges is definitely not impossible. Just make a huge and very sensitive antenna and couple it with massive processing power. Problem is that it would be pretty vulnerable during war due to their massive size.

Re: Chinese claims they detect F-22 from 450 km away

Unread postPosted: 29 Jan 2019, 11:10
by popcorn
The Chinese obviously don't believe in OPSEC. :devil:

Re: Chinese claims they detect F-22 from 450 km away

Unread postPosted: 29 Jan 2019, 13:09
by mixelflick
The translated slide reads as follows...

"This is complete fiction, and any suckers believing it are even dumber than they look..."

:mrgreen:

Re: Chinese claims they detect F-22 from 450 km away

Unread postPosted: 29 Jan 2019, 13:26
by marsavian
JORN was supposed to have detected B-2 flights, the trick though ultimately is that the X-band fire control radar on the missile has to track, it all ultimately comes down to that end puzzle. It's all very well spotting incoming but no good if you can't shoot them down.

https://web.archive.org/web/20071116065 ... page37.htm

State of Stealth - Aviation Week

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... KQwruILkML

Re: Chinese claims they detect F-22 from 450 km away

Unread postPosted: 29 Jan 2019, 14:13
by sferrin
marsavian wrote:JORN was supposed to have detected B-2 flights, the trick though ultimately is that the X-band fire control radar on the missile has to track, it all ultimately comes down to that end puzzle. It's all very well spotting incoming but no good if you can't shoot them down.

https://web.archive.org/web/20071116065 ... page37.htm

State of Stealth - Aviation Week

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... KQwruILkML


The B-2 also possesses radar enhancement devices. Do we know they weren't deployed when they were "detected"?

Re: Chinese claims they detect F-22 from 450 km away

Unread postPosted: 29 Jan 2019, 15:06
by sprstdlyscottsmn
I've also spoken to someone who inadvertently locked up a B-2 with an F-15E radar back in the 90s while it was on a test stand. The B-2 was landing and had it's gear down. He was testing the radar after a repair, saw a blip on the scope, locked it up, and within seconds the blip would disappear. He thought the radar was busted until he got a call from someone (I think it was the tower) to stop locking up the B-2 as it was forcing them to abort it's landings by engaging the defense mechanisms (no word on what that means).

Re: Chinese claims they detect F-22 from 450 km away

Unread postPosted: 29 Jan 2019, 15:20
by zero-one
sprstdlyscottsmn wrote: He thought the radar was busted until he got a call from someone (I think it was the tower) to stop locking up the B-2 as it was forcing them to abort it's landings by engaging the defense mechanisms (no word on what that means).

I guess its safe to say that the "defensive mechanism" involved automatically closing down all doors and bomb bays.

Curious, would it be possible to emit a radio signal that looks like its painting a target or locking up on a target and broadcast that signal over a wide area. That way, all stealth aircraft with similar defensive mechanisms will be forced to automatically close down all their doors and weapons bays.

And from that story, it looks like there is no override switch.

Re: Chinese claims they detect F-22 from 450 km away

Unread postPosted: 29 Jan 2019, 16:34
by sferrin
zero-one wrote:
sprstdlyscottsmn wrote: He thought the radar was busted until he got a call from someone (I think it was the tower) to stop locking up the B-2 as it was forcing them to abort it's landings by engaging the defense mechanisms (no word on what that means).

I guess its safe to say that the "defensive mechanism" involved automatically closing down all doors and bomb bays.

Curious, would it be possible to emit a radio signal that looks like its painting a target or locking up on a target and broadcast that signal over a wide area. That way, all stealth aircraft with similar defensive mechanisms will be forced to automatically close down all their doors and weapons bays.

And from that story, it looks like there is no override switch.


If there is any truth to that it probably took about 3.2 seconds to implement a software fix. No way is an enemy going to be able to force B-2 bay doors to stay closed by broadcasting a signal.

Re: Chinese claims they detect F-22 from 450 km away

Unread postPosted: 29 Jan 2019, 19:38
by botsing
sferrin wrote:If there is any truth to that it probably took about 3.2 seconds to implement a software fix. No way is an enemy going to be able to force B-2 bay doors to stay closed by broadcasting a signal.

I thought the same, no override for such an event sounds like a class A accident waiting to happen.

Re: Chinese claims they detect F-22 from 450 km away

Unread postPosted: 29 Jan 2019, 23:45
by citanon
This same radar system just got pulverized by the Israelis at Damascus airport, Along with a couple of Russian tor m1.

Re: Chinese claims they detect F-22 from 450 km away

Unread postPosted: 30 Jan 2019, 01:57
by collimatrix
charlielima223 wrote:
Unless they found some way to bend the fundamental laws of physics I call male bovine excrement. Besides I take most claims by Chinese state run media with a grain of salt... as in pass the salt shaker and leave it here.


I buy that with current technology it would be possible to build a radar that can pick up an F-22 from 450 km away. Essentially you would want an absolutely gigantic, low-frequency, high-powered AESA.

The F-22 would know it was being pinged long before it showed up as a blip on the radar screen because radar range is an inverse fourth power function, and RWR range is an inverse square, and with that mismatch between power and RCS I would expect the target to be notified before the radar.

The radar would also be largely immobile, and tied to a stonking huge generator. We're talking about something that you can take apart and move in several ICBM-sized TEL transports. Optimistically.

The radar would also not be able to tell if it had picked up one F-22 or a whole flock of them, and it would not a have a particularly good idea of which direction they were flying in, and it would be able to offer only an educated guess as to which zip code they were in. The stealth-defeating wavelengths don't have the world's best resolution.


But, with the above provisos, I buy that you could make a radar with modern technology that could pick up a Raptor at 450 km.

Re: Chinese claims they detect F-22 from 450 km away

Unread postPosted: 30 Jan 2019, 06:55
by charlielima223
collimatrix wrote:
charlielima223 wrote:
Unless they found some way to bend the fundamental laws of physics I call male bovine excrement. Besides I take most claims by Chinese state run media with a grain of salt... as in pass the salt shaker and leave it here.



The F-22 would know it was being pinged long before it showed up as a blip on the radar screen because radar range is an inverse fourth power function, and RWR range is an inverse square, and with that mismatch between power and RCS I would expect the target to be notified before the radar.

The radar would also be largely immobile, and tied to a stonking huge generator. We're talking about something that you can take apart and move in several ICBM-sized TEL transports. Optimistically.

But, with the above provisos, I buy that you could make a radar with modern technology that could pick up a Raptor at 450 km.


So its completely possible if the means to do so is completely impractical. Like how its completely possible for me to take a whole cucumber and push it down a steel tube with an opening 2cm across if a use enough force.

Re: Chinese claims they detect F-22 from 450 km away

Unread postPosted: 30 Jan 2019, 07:35
by eloise
citanon wrote:This same radar system just got pulverized by the Israelis at Damascus airport, Along with a couple of Russian tor m1.

JY-27
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Re: Chinese claims they detect F-22 from 450 km away

Unread postPosted: 30 Jan 2019, 07:57
by garrya
Some important details we need to know
1- How do they know they detect F-22 and not something else?
2- What direction was F-22 facing when it was detected? toward the radar or somewhere else
3- Do F-22 carry fuel tank or Luneburg lens
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Re: Chinese claims they detect F-22 from 450 km away

Unread postPosted: 30 Jan 2019, 08:00
by hornetfinn
botsing wrote:
sferrin wrote:If there is any truth to that it probably took about 3.2 seconds to implement a software fix. No way is an enemy going to be able to force B-2 bay doors to stay closed by broadcasting a signal.

I thought the same, no override for such an event sounds like a class A accident waiting to happen.


Fix for this would be very easy to do, but I think this kind of incident is very possible. Probably nobody thought that military radar would lock up on B-2 during landing. B-2 would be extremely vulnerable during landing and such self protection system would make some sense. I think that kind of system would involve retracting landing gear and closing all doors. It would also likely abort the landing approach especially if it was flying using autopilot. AFAIK, B-2s use autopilot for landing approach until something like 500ft altitude. I doubt locking up would affect weapon bay doors or combat capability. It might affect radio transmissions to and from B-2 like with the tower, though.

I bet they did something for this afterwards if it really happened.