Page 1 of 1

F-22 Sensors

Unread postPosted: 23 Jan 2019, 14:28
by mixelflick
I've often heard it said the F-22 has "many more" ways to ID a bandit than 4th gen birds. I'm not going to ask, but assume it's a lot more than radar, because it has no (known) IRST or Electro Optical means. But then I read where the F-35 has over 600, considerably more than event.

Have any been "ported over" to the Raptor to increase its lethality, and is the process known to be ongoing?? I'd like to think so, but don't know if perhaps its a hardware limitation, vs. a software update??

Re: F-22 Sensors

Unread postPosted: 23 Jan 2019, 16:55
by sferrin
ALR-94. The F-35 has a similar system.

Re: F-22 Sensors

Unread postPosted: 24 Jan 2019, 01:42
by firebase99
sferrin wrote:ALR-94. The F-35 has a similar system.


i believe its much more than that alone. i think the Raptor has 200 way as opposed the 35's 600+.

Re: F-22 Sensors

Unread postPosted: 24 Jan 2019, 13:41
by hornetfinn
I think in F-22 most of the data comes from radar and AN/ALR-94 like already stated. I think the difference to 4th gen fighters is that all that data is handled by sensor fusion which allows a lot of new possibilities to ID the target. In 4th gen jets the sensors are designed to detect and track targets by themselves and then maybe have track correlation where track data is correlated from different sensors. That track data is just a subset of all the data that is received from the target. F-22 sensors are also much more advanced than in most 4th gen jets as it has advanced AESA radar and ESM system whereas most 4th gen jets have mechanically scanned radars and just RWR system.

I think latest 4th gen jets with AESAs and new ESM systems can have more ways to ID targets than previous 4th gen jets, but still likely less than F-22, let alone F-35.

Re: F-22 Sensors

Unread postPosted: 24 Jan 2019, 17:11
by SpudmanWP
Besides the sensor count, the F-35 benefits from probably having a larger threat library with the CPU muscle to use it.

Re: F-22 Sensors

Unread postPosted: 24 Jan 2019, 20:14
by quicksilver
F-35...

"The whole is greater than the sum of its parts."

Re: F-22 Sensors

Unread postPosted: 25 Jan 2019, 04:25
by wrightwing
After 2024, the F-22 will have a lot more tricks.

Re: F-22 Sensors

Unread postPosted: 25 Jan 2019, 17:44
by mixelflick
wrightwing wrote:After 2024, the F-22 will have a lot more tricks.


OK, good to know. But you are alluding to what, exactly after 2024???

On a side note, it's been said here many times that an F-35 has "650 ways" to ID targets. Is that legit, or LM marketing? This is the most educated board on military aviation that's online. Yet, is there a single person here who could list 100, nevermind 650??

I'm not being flippant, it just really blows my mind. I count radar, IR, electro optical, this AN/ALR 194 you just cited and the MK 1 eyeball. That's 5.

Are there really 645 more??

Re: F-22 Sensors

Unread postPosted: 25 Jan 2019, 18:10
by SpudmanWP
The 600+ quote comes from an Australian General while testifying before Parliament.

Air Vice Marshal Osley: And so the strength of the joint strike fighter—and I use this as an example—is that
it has the ability to have up to 650 parameters by which it will identify a potential threat out there. Other aircraft,
such as the F22 have about a third of that and fourth-generation aircraft have perhaps half a dozen. So if you are
in an F18 or in some of the other Soviet aircraft you only have a very limited understanding of what the threat is
and being able to identify it at a distance.


https://parlinfo.aph.gov.au/parlInfo/do ... ficial.pdf

Re: F-22 Sensors

Unread postPosted: 25 Jan 2019, 19:20
by quicksilver
IIRC, the statement was not about “650 ways to ID.” Rather, it was about the number of parameters the system uses to ID.

And I see that spud found it...

Re: F-22 Sensors

Unread postPosted: 25 Jan 2019, 19:44
by wrightwing
mixelflick wrote:
wrightwing wrote:After 2024, the F-22 will have a lot more tricks.


OK, good to know. But you are alluding to what, exactly after 2024???

On a side note, it's been said here many times that an F-35 has "650 ways" to ID targets. Is that legit, or LM marketing? This is the most educated board on military aviation that's online. Yet, is there a single person here who could list 100, nevermind 650??

I'm not being flippant, it just really blows my mind. I count radar, IR, electro optical, this AN/ALR 194 you just cited and the MK 1 eyeball. That's 5.

Are there really 645 more??


As others have mentioned, that number refers to NCTR parameters, not individual sensors. As for the F-22, they're currently in the process of extensive updates, which presumably will include lessons learned from the F-35, in addition to the new sensors/computers.

Re: F-22 Sensors

Unread postPosted: 26 Jan 2019, 08:42
by zero-one
Question, what if India\Indonesia\Vietnam or other Flanker users with warmer ties with the US engages against China\Russia.
They both have Flankers.

How will the F-22 ID the friendly Flankers?
Does VID become all the more relevant?

Re: F-22 Sensors

Unread postPosted: 26 Jan 2019, 14:29
by mixelflick
zero-one wrote:Question, what if India\Indonesia\Vietnam or other Flanker users with warmer ties with the US engages against China\Russia.
They both have Flankers.

How will the F-22 ID the friendly Flankers?
Does VID become all the more relevant?


1.) I'm sure they have ways, but we'll never know them (engine return specifics)?
2.) Likely not, given it blows the whole first look, first shot, first kill mantra out of the water

In other words, I rather doubt that the people responsible for troubleshooting these things haven't thought about how to deal with those situations...

Re: F-22 Sensors

Unread postPosted: 26 Jan 2019, 16:48
by zero-one
mixelflick wrote:Likely not, given it blows the whole first look, first shot, first kill mantra out of the water


I don't think VID compromises the first look, shot, kill mantra as the F-22 can VID from angles unseen by the bandit.
They did get behind F-4s unseen, close enough to see the ordnance, same logic applies for spotting the roundel.

Re: F-22 Sensors

Unread postPosted: 26 Jan 2019, 20:02
by wrightwing
There are several ways to mitigate fratricide. The first is F-22s being in front of all other friendlies, so any target is a bad guy. Secondly, friendlies using correct IFF transponder codes. There are a number of other measures that could be taken, as well.